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Today Doug opens the container with Luis Benitez to discuss the need for a National Office of Recreation.
The rise in outdoor recreation has always been a part of the American experience, with transcendentalists like Emerson and Thoreau heading to the woods for enlightenment, down to current day secularists just wanting to get away from work. The indigenous people of this continent whose lands were taken and occupied had a deep connection to these spaces and still do.
Luis joins the show to discuss the critical role of outdoor recreation departments in advocating for the outdoor community and promoting sustainable practices on public lands.
He shares his journey from guiding on Everest to becoming a prominent advocate for the outdoor recreation sector, highlighting the importance of collaboration across political lines to address shared concerns for conservation and accessibility.
The discussion also touches on challenges faced by the outdoor industry, including increasing pressure on public lands and the necessity of responsible management as more people seek outdoor experiences.
Through their dialogue, they emphasize the potential for a national department of outdoor recreation to unify efforts and further protect these vital spaces for future generations.
Note: This conversation was recorded before the 2024 presidential election.
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Episode Transcript
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:07.440 - 00:05:49.204
Welcome to Open Container. I'm Doug Schnitzspahn. I'm a journalist, writer and overall lover of the outdoors.
I fought wildfires, reported on national politics, published magazines, and I've even blown an outpouring from all the high points of Scandinavia.
On this podcast we're going to have an open conversation about culture, conservation, policy, business issues that matter the most to the outdoor community. Now, I've been a passionate lover of the outdoors all my life. The outdoors has saved my life.
It's gotten me to where I am today and I want to be able to share that joy with the listeners of this podcast and talk to people who will bring us to a new way of understanding what the outdoors is and what it can be for everyone. My first guest today, Luis Benitez, is someone who really embodies that passion and that idea and that wanting to share with others.
Our topic today is recreation. In particular the rise of State Outdoor Recreation Departments or orex.
These are the offices created by state governors to encourage the development and maintenance of a healthy, well represented recreation based economy on public lands.
This is a huge umbrella that includes guides, manufacturers travel, hunting, mountain biking, ski resorts, fishing boats, and most of all, the fair, equitable and continuous use of our public lands. We all love to play outside.
It's a part of being American and there is a unique freedom to being able to go out and find joy in casting for trout or ripping single track or just camping with the family. In a way, recreation is a part of our spiritual identity no matter our religion.
The rise in outdoor recreation has always been a part of the American experience, with transcendentalists like Emerson and Thoreau heading to the woods for enlightenment, down to current day secularists just wanting to get away from work. The indigenous people of this continent whose lands were taken and occupied had a deep connection to these spaces and still do.
And outdoor recreation is big, big business.
The Outdoor Industry association first made the push to recognize just how much money plain outdoors generates and valued this economy at $887 billion. That was not just the industry self promoting.
The US government undertook a study through the Bureau of Economic Analysis and it calculates output of outdoor recreation to be a whopping 1.1 trillion, surpassing industries such as mining, logging, farming, ranching and chemical products. Now there is a lot of talk over how that number is derived and exactly what outdoor recreation is.
For example, do SUVs purchased for adventures and sport fishing boats count?
But the truth is we spend a lot of money playing outdoors and since that activity takes place on public land shouldn't outdoor recreation get the same seat at the table as other public land users such as mining, logging and grazing? Because right now it does not. And those uses permanently alter or take away from public land in a way that recreation does not.
And while it does still take a certain toll on natural habitats in general, recreation wants to maintain ecosystems rather than rip them apart. And we all love to play outside. So why do we need outdoor recreation departments?
Well, for one, we need to be at the table and speaking with that 1.1 trillion behind us so that extractive industries are not the sole voices for public land uses in politicians ears. And two, we need to protect recreation from itself.
As our population grows, as we become more technologically advanced, as more people move to mountain towns everywhere and embrace the benefits of outdoors outdoor recreation, we are putting more and more pressure on our public lands. Don't get me wrong, this is a good thing. But we also need to protect and save these lands for their own benefit.
Outdoor recreation departments can do that.
And while it's great that we have so many state orecs, we also need a national department of outdoor recreation to ensure unity and a sharp focus on taking care of the 840 million acres of public land in the U.S. our guest today is Luis Benitez.
The son of an Ecuadorian aerospace engineer and an American primary school art teacher, Benitez is a former international mountain Guide, Director of Colorado Outdoor Recreation Industry Office, Vice President of Governmental affairs and Global impact for VF Corps.
And today Luis is the chief impact officer for the Trust for Public Lands, a non profit organization that works across sectors to ensure that everyone will have access to the benefits and joys of the outdoors for generations to come. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. Now let's open the container with Luis Benitez.
Well, I am so excited to have a longtime friend and person I really admire and really the person I think should be with us here to launch this podcast and that is Luis Benitez. And Luis, you've guided on Everest. You've taught far and helped run Outward Bound.
You've launched the VF foundation, relaunched it, served as the first director of the Outdoor Recreation Industry Office for the state of Colorado. We were talking before. You have a massive, massive resume that we're all proud of and impressed by.
How has all that experience though, how has that come together really to educate you, to change you, and really to form the philosophy that you have now about the outdoors and recreation where you're ready to be really the spokesperson for this nationally.
Luis Benitez
00:05:49.332 - 00:06:50.060
Boy, Doug, thank You so much for the invite.
It's so I'm really honored to help you kick this off because I think your voice has always been one that I've just wanted to see and hear more of out there in the universe. So, a, thank you for doing this, and B, thank you for having me.
You know, I think like most people in the outdoor industry, and you could probably empathize with this, our resumes are usually a smorgasbord of different roles and responsibilities and different pieces that we do that are all kind of threaded together to keep us connected to that thing that brought us here in the first place, which is that love of place and love of the outdoors. And I don't think I'm really any different.
I think I've just been lucky enough to find my path, have amazing friends and mentors to help me walk that path.
And the one constant and the one consistent piece has been that everything I've tried to do has sort of been on behalf of an industry that I know you and I really love.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:06:50.360 - 00:07:01.054
And how is all your varied experience, how does that make you sort of different? How has that created a way that you see the world maybe differently than anyone else and can come into different situations in a new way?
Luis Benitez
00:07:01.222 - 00:09:55.160
Yeah, that's an interesting one.
I think the one oddball thing about me sort of being raised with an immigrant father and an American mother, from a really early age, I was lucky enough to understand that the world was much bigger than just the United States.
And going back and forth to Latin America, seeing what high glaciated mountain ecosystems did for economic development for small rural communities, how the guiding industry was a way of life in Ecuador. I was exposed to that at a really early age in the American side of my family. My American grandfather owned a sporting goods store in the Midwest.
So a bird shooting and fly fishing sporting goods store was one of the first Orvis dealerships in the Midwest. So, you know, I think the unique thing about me is when I tell people I really grew up within this industry on a lot of different levels. It's.
It's true.
And then you combine that with the fact that I was a really sick little kid, had really bad asthma, really bad allergies, couldn't really go outside a whole lot till I was about 10 without being on a massive amount of steroid based inhalers and, you know, the weekly allergy shot, more trips to the emergency room that I could count, you know, so it was sort of this combination of growing up in and around an industry that really Valued to time outside and the natural resources that drive that time outside combined with a juxtaposition of being a really sick little kid.
And so I think my family's approach to how to get better was to sort of pull on some of those threads of finding ways to get me out there more in the very simple thinking that maybe time and fresh air will make his problem with his lungs and with some of these things better. Really simplistic viewpoint that sent me to the hospital more times. I could count, but it worked.
And so, you know, when all these conversations happen around, you know, parks and green space and time outside being attached to public health, you know, I take these things incredibly personally because of the way I grew up, because of the things I was exposed to when small family owned specialty retail shops in our industry are hurting or struggling or trying to find a path through. I take these things to heart because it's the way half of my family put food on the table. It's how my mother was raised.
And then when you look through the international lens of that, these questions aren't just American, these are global questions that we're asking here in the United States of how do you leverage natural resources to help drive an economy? How does that economy reflect then the development of a society?
And then how does the development of that society, when it reaches a certain point, what are they responsible for with respect to leadership of that economy and of that place?
So, you know, I don't know if that necessarily makes me different because I know there's a lot of smart people, including you, that think about these things, but it is stuff that I think about on a daily basis.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:09:55.270 - 00:10:30.930
I love that and I love that idea of the US creating leadership.
We've led the world in democracy, and I've always thought that the more democratic a nation, the better its conservation systems are and the more it cares about land in a certain way.
So that's a really great idea to think that we can also then provide global leadership, especially to our emerging nations as they get greater economies where we can also provide leadership to show, you know, this is also how you can save these places that mean so much to you and as they did for you and for me and so many other people, provide healing and provide grounding. Right?
Luis Benitez
00:10:31.390 - 00:10:45.878
Absolutely.
You know, and I think it's, it's, you know, you mentioned democracy and, you know, I think if we said that if somebody was on this podcast from France, they'd be like, ah, we got there, we got there first. You guys took it. You guys took it. From us.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:10:45.934 - 00:10:46.530
Sure.
Luis Benitez
00:10:46.830 - 00:11:14.228
And so I think asking that larger question and really understanding, you know, I've been having these conversations in Ecuador since I was a kid and still do and been lucky enough to travel around the world as a professional mountain guide for a very long time.
And, you know, the things that we talk about aren't unique, but I think the thing that is unique about the United States is that we're now starting to attach these conversations to government. And how can government really be better and do better in this space?
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:11:14.364 - 00:11:32.288
Yeah. And I think that leads into our next point.
And what we really wanted to talk about is outdoor recreation departments and an astronaut recreation department. And maybe we'll start. If you could just explain what a state outdoor recreation department is. How did that idea start?
Which states have them and why do we need them?
Luis Benitez
00:11:32.424 - 00:18:20.738
Yeah, no, all great questions.
You know, I think one of the things that really started about 10 years ago was this theory among governors in the United States that you'll see this a lot in a lot of different states that if that there's a significant portion of a state's economy is based in tech or technology, a governor will appoint a tech czar. Or if it's big in the health care industry, you'll have a health care czar. So the czar thing sort of had had its moment.
And I think just fundamentally, when governors were getting together at gatherings like the National Governors association would do a couple of times a year, the question just started to be asked, you know, well, there are a lot of states where a significant portion of their economy, more than 10%, was based in outdoor recreation, based in the outdoor industry for manufacturing, to just straight up tourism through guide services and providers like that.
And so it was just sort of this pragmatic approach that, okay, well, if we had that, we should probably have a function within state government to actually make that work. So we were the second state to come online, Believe it or not.
The whole thing started with a push pull between Utah and Colorado, which I, I love that, that friendly competition, collaboration.
At the time, Governor Herbert, who was a Republican, got together with then Governor Hickenlooper, who's a Democrat, and started poking the bear a little bit and saying, well, we have this outdoor recreation industry office. It's brand new. We're so excited about it. We should.
We're, you know, Utah is doing all these great things, and it really got under Governor Hickenlooper skit. And as the story goes, because I wasn't privy to this part yet, he said he came home, was like this is. We can't have this.
If Utah has this office, we need to have it, too. So then he turned to his staff and said, go forth and find me the person that. That should. That should help kick this thing off.
I was blissfully unaware of that entire conversation. Living quite happily in Eagle, Colorado, which is a tiny little, about 7,500 person community, kind of between Glenwood Springs and Avon.
I was serving on town council, considering to make it a run for mayor, really working on outdoor industry questions for our valley.
And our community was also working for Vail Resorts, the ski industry that's sort of the dominant employer in the valley, running organizational development and for them. And the phone rang and it was Fiona Arnold, and she was then the director of the Office of Economic Development and International Trade.
But I used to know her as the chief counsel for Vail Resorts. So we got to know each other really well when she was with Vail Resorts.
And it was a really innocuous, sort of cryptic message which was just like, hey, Governor's got an idea about outdoor industry stuff, and I've brought your name forward to, to be in the mix. Would you mind getting on the phone or coming down here and having a conversation about it? Literally had no idea what this was about.
But knowing Fiona and really respecting her, we started messaging on Facebook because it was the easiest direct messaging at the time. Yeah. And so like, hey, Fiona, what's up? What is this thing? She gave me this rough.
She tried to start, but she's like, listen, it just, just come down when he. Can you come down and have a conversation.
And then Governor, now Senator Hickenlooper is really famous and I think really well known for a trusting the people that he works with implicitly because they're just amazing people. He has this gravity to him where he pulls the best and the brightest. All corners to come and, and went down to the Capitol.
Met Fiona thinking, you know, and as she was explaining this, I'm thinking, oh, I think I'm going to be asked to be, you know, help with a, with a search committee to find this person, which, how flattering. That'd be amazing. That'd be great. And so literally, casually, she's like, come on across the street. The boss wants to talk to you. Okay, no problem.
Sounds like a good idea. So we walked across the street to the Capitol building. First time I had ever been in the governor's office.
And for those of you that have never been to Colorado Capital, it's gigantic and ornate. The rotunda is, is gorgeous and the Governor's office. The. The big, heavy doors are like 10ft tall. There's an antechamber outside of the main chamber.
And so you're going past security and. And personal secretaries and all this stuff. And I just remember having this little tinge of. This is a little bit more real than. Than what I.
What I expected. And when we went in and he was very gracious and.
And we talked a lot about Egle and talked about rural economic development, some of the things I was doing on town council. And then he just basically said, you know, we've got this idea about an outdoor industry office.
And Fiona is pretty adamant that you should be the first director. And so we were wondering if you'd be willing to come down and help us out and take the job.
And I think Fiona was hoping to sort of slow roll it a little bit and have a little bit more of a conversation, true to form, with Governor Hickenlooper. He just put it all out there on the table, and I was just gobsmacked. I had no idea how to respond. I didn't even know what the job was.
There was no job description. It was, in essence, take a look at this industry and this economy for our state and try to figure out how to protect it and make it better.
It was a real existential conversation with my wife, who was pregnant with our daughter. So the conversation went a little like this. I went home and told her what was going on. On. She said, so let me get this straight.
You're going to quit your corporate job, which means I'm going to have to quit my corporate job.
We're going to have to sell our house in a valley, in a community that we love, that we, you know, people work their entire lifetimes to get to where we were and enjoy what we had.
We're going to move down to the city, which we swore we would never do, and you're going to take a government job, which is going to be, like, about that much pay. You know, when she laid it out, like, yeah, that doesn't sound like a real good idea.
And pregnant with our firstborn, who was due at that point a couple more months, it didn't sound very well.
But to her credit, she saw and I think heard in my voice just how important this was to me to be of service to an industry that I explained to you in the beginning of this podcast, was just so important to how I grew up. So that's how I got the job. That was it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:18:20.874 - 00:18:37.150
When I think that ties right into what we were talking about, it was like you were, your whole life had built up to taking that job. Right. All your experience managing, working in town councils, rural areas, guiding all over the world, international.
So it seems like you really had built up to all of that at that point.
Luis Benitez
00:18:37.450 - 00:19:09.996
Yeah.
And if somebody would have told me, because you never think that this is just going to come out of nowhere and if somebody would have said I would have been working in state government, wearing a tie, doing, doing things like that, having to jockey for some of that political support, really understand what that ecosystem was, I would have told you you were nuts. There was no way I was going to do that. But I think sometimes you don't choose your path. Sometimes it, you know, sometimes it chooses you.
And really that choice is down to how you want to show up.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:19:10.148 - 00:19:18.320
Right. And now look where we are. Right. We've got. Not only did you succeed in the position, Utah, you know, succeeded in the position.
And now how many states have Orex?
Luis Benitez
00:19:18.460 - 00:19:58.522
Yeah, I mean, well, the journey for the last 10 years. And I do credit Senator Hickenlooper for this when he was governor. You know, a lot of these offices are beholden to their governor.
So it's really up to the governor to decide how they want you to interact, how they want you to engage.
Governor Hickenlooper made sure I was going to every National Governors association meeting, I was talking to other governors and basically pitching this idea that if your state has more than 10% of its economy based in this, in this ecosystem, you should have this office too. So in 2025, we are going to celebrate having 25 states with offices.
So that's half of the country, Republican and Democratic led states that have these offices of outdoor recreation.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:19:58.666 - 00:20:04.106
And some of these states are ones that people might not even think of as being big outdoor destinations. Right.
Luis Benitez
00:20:04.178 - 00:20:53.678
Tennessee, Georgia, I mean Arkansas, the list goes on and on. But I think when you dig into the why, you really understand that.
You know, any state that has a national forest, a big hunting and fishing culture, or a boating or a biking or a sailing culture, the list goes on and on. A climbing culture, a mountain biking culture, whatever it is, chances are that they have an ecosystem that needs overwatch and protecting.
And to date, well, in 2020, 25, we'll be on track for, for 25 states. Arizona just announced two days ago. So that was, that was four. And then we've got a couple more in the hopper.
We're going to go further than 25 and 25. But that was, that was the goal. And here we are Great.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:20:53.734 - 00:21:10.266
And then I think that leads perfectly into what you talk about your book, Higher Ground, how the outdoor recreation industry can save the world, and how. What we really need now, we've got 25 of these state departments, but we also need a national department. It.
Luis Benitez
00:21:10.418 - 00:24:07.870
Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's. That's a great question. And thanks for mentioning the book. You know. You know my co author, Frederick Reimers? I do, yeah.
So, you know, I just never. This never would have come to life without Rico. And I have to give credit where credit is due. We've been friends for 20 years.
We were Outward Bound instructors together all those years ago. And during the pandemic, you know, we would just talk like friends do.
And he had already written a couple articles about the state offices and about work that I had been trying to do. I've had this idea about putting it all down on paper for a while. And he's like, well, if you put this out there, you know, it's.
It's going to be a political theory of change. And so you have to understand, if you're going to do that, you can't just write a magazine article about this.
You're actually going to have to put it all down and talk about the progression and how it attaches to your journey personally. And so that was our pandemic project.
The two of us knuckled down for three years to put the book together and to really understand how to explain the why for the country, for a federal office.
And I think to your point, you know, why we would need a federal office of outdoor recreation is sort of attached to the conversation of why we need state offices.
The difference is with the state office, if you have one governor that says, yes, we support that, and another governor that says, no, we don't, you're constantly needing to sort of manage up to understand what the expectations are of your state. And to a governor's credit, it's a. It's a governor's prerogative to say, worry about the stuff inside of our borders. You know, that. The other stuff.
Yes, go talk to the other directors. Have a coalition, which we do. State directors talk at least once a month.
But in terms of everything else, like, we got to worry about our own backyard, which is valid.
And so I think the why now is when you're talking about an economy for the United States worth $1.1 trillion, the Department of Commerce actually measures us towards the GDP now, and we're worth $1.1 trillion in gross domestic output. We are responsible for over 5 million American jobs, that's more than percent of the country's GDP.
You really have to start asking that larger question of how do we manage and protect this economy for the United States of America?
So this is now going beyond states borders and this is now talking about really understanding what it takes to protect an economy that is heavily reliant on natural resources and a natural resource infrastructure.
And so in looking through that lens and looking at some of these other large trillion dollar economies, so when you say say pharma or agriculture or even the auto industry, all industries by the way, that we're larger than on paper and you think about the proportional representation they have in Washington D.C. and then you look at us, we're on the learning curve right now and we're working really hard to close that gap.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:24:09.090 - 00:24:15.680
And what would be the difference if we had this national office? What could it do? What could it, it, you know, what difference would it make out there?
Luis Benitez
00:24:16.140 - 00:25:48.860
Yeah, you know, I think, and again, because governors can have that prerogative with their state offices of, you know, these are the things that are important to us which might not necessarily be important to another state.
You know, a classic example I'll give you, you know, Wildfire, incredibly important conversation in Colorado with the new Colorado director, Connor hall, who leans into this conversation pretty hard. You don't see the wildfire conversation show up on, on the eastern, the eastern states.
Right now North Carolina, which has an office is deeply worried about, you know, recovery for, from the, from the hurricane. And so now they're involved in disaster relief.
And when you think of Asheville in North Carolina, which you know, it is of equivalency to Boulder, Colorado in terms of an outdoor industry town and being the nexus for that state, you know, and needing that support, you know, our offices get into so much more. But then when it comes to asking federal, federal level question, so what do we need to do to galvanize support for things like the Explore Act?
What do we need to do?
And this is going to be a real time conversation with galvanizing support for this industry in states like North Carolina and Tennessee to ensure that it recovers effectively. How can we do that?
We need to have a federal level, federal level air traffic controller to help not only guide the processes through all the different ecosystems, but at the federal level, but also bring those state directors together in D.C. once a year for a national convening representing our industry.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:25:49.880 - 00:26:22.880
I think that's fantastic. And I think it also brings to a kind of hard truth which is that the outdoors and the Outdoor spaces, they're all managed now.
Every inch is mapped and delegated and managed. So there's no. I think some people might think that outdoor spaces can just exist on their own, but. But we're way, way beyond that.
And as we get more people pushing into areas, moving out to areas, being able to be out there, I think that has to affect how we think about land in general. Right?
Luis Benitez
00:26:23.260 - 00:28:25.142
Yeah. You know, I do have a theory about this, and you and I have talked at great length.
You know, I think for the first time, when you start looking at how we're evolving just as a civilization, and you think about different countries and what they're known for, and you think about the evolution of AI and what is the United States really known for? Absolutely. We're known for tech, we're known for innovation. We've always been known for these things.
But as the world gets denser and as populations grow and as it gets more and more difficult to find open space to really connect with nature, I think one of the things that America is starting to get more and more well known for is our access to public land is having these natural resources to be able to recreate.
When you think about the inbound international tourism to the United States, sure, they're coming to Disney, Disneyland, New York and la, but a significant portion are going to recreate in the outdoors. They're coming here to recreate in the outdoors.
And looking through that lens, I think it's high time that we start looking at nature as infrastructure in the United States. We need to think about a national forest the same way we think about a bridge and an overpass.
And concurrently, the funding mechanisms to support those things also need to be in play and in check.
I just read this horrifying statistic the other day that the Forest Service is not going to hire any seasonal workers next, beyond ones that are going to be focused on wildfire.
When you think about the impact to our national forest, our national parks, how hard and how heavy pressed that ecosystem is going to be without those seasonal workers. And frankly, what is academia doing to really push seeing these things as a career path, as a career track?
So again, getting back to this federal office question, really an opportunity to push some of these ideas, to galvanize the conversation around how we can start changing our thinking on these things. It's going to require a footprint in Washington D.C. to make it work.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:28:25.326 - 00:28:49.682
Yeah. And it seems like it's just heading in the wrong direction. Right.
As we see, there's more pressure on these places and the people making Decisions right now are going to stop having trail crews out there, this kind of stuff.
So it seems like people like you, like me, like people listening to this podcast, it's time for us to really have to take leadership if we want a viable future for public lands.
Luis Benitez
00:28:49.826 - 00:31:00.280
Yeah. And, you know, I think it happens in a couple of ways, right?
I think for the first time ever, especially with the conversations we've been having for the last decade, I'd really like to see politicians coming to court our vote, that if you don't come after us and you don't talk to us as a voting bloc and a voting constituency, that you're not going to get it. And we'll work really hard to make sure that you don't get it.
And I think it's rapidly approaching this point of political gravity, gravity that people are starting to wake up to the fact that, oh yeah, this isn't just a rural thing, this is an urban thing, this is a, this is an American thing and a conversation. And, you know, without some of those, those pressure points being tested, you know, it's a trillion dollar economy that's literally begging for help.
So it asks the larger question of truly, what is our sophistication level?
What are the things that we're missing right now and, and how can we rapidly evolve to getting to that place of sophistication to take care of some of these things?
You talk metaphorically to a lot of friends about the outdoor industry being somewhat of a, of an adolescent at this point in its development of self awareness, where, you know, we do a lot of really fun stuff with really fun people.
We're really inspirational, we're constantly on the move, but we're slowly waking up to the fact that we've got a really big bank account, we've got some responsibility we need to be accountable for, and we actually need to find our voice in this space. And so it leaves us looking each other around a lot of campfires and a lot of trailhead parking lots going, well, who, who's going to do that?
Are you, are you going to do that? Is your NGO going to do that? If I give five bucks to fill in the blank nonprofit, will, will they take care of this? Or how about that one?
Or how about If I give five bucks to 10 nonprofits, will that kaleidoscope to actually take care of some of these things? Well, what are we missing? How do those folks convene?
How do those folks agree that they're pointed in the right direction, in the same direction direction. And so that fractured nature that we're just starting to wake up to. It's the same kind of evolution that any normal teenager would go through.
It's sort of this level of self awareness combined with a little bit of hormonal angst that we're just going to have to dig into to figure out how to make this better.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:31:00.580 - 00:31:04.924
And determining identity probably, too. Right. As you do as a teenager. Right.
Luis Benitez
00:31:05.092 - 00:32:34.324
Well, you know, when I go back to the amount of.
The amount of grief I got and the amount of FOMO I had when I joined the governor's office, because all my buddies were still guiding, like, hey, how's life wearing a suit? And they'd send a picture, you know, a snapshot from an expedition in a far flung corner of the world like that. That must be really exciting, buddy.
So it's. It's the choices that we make about the responsibility of growing up. And it's less about an individual, but it's more about our.
The community and our industry. And I will tell you, I went through those growing pains. It was. It was to be.
You know, we used to joke, all of us that worked on Hickenlooper's staff, that we all had bodies by government. You know, it's like body by whoever.
We had bodies by government because the days were long, the hours of sleep were short, but you were in service to something bigger than yourself. And so trying to find that balance and figure out how to. How to do the thing that you love the most. Most of us don't want to give that stuff up.
We find our niche. We find the place where we really thrive, and that's as far we go. Sure, we'll vote and we'll donate a little money, and that's.
That's all well and good, but what I want us to start doing is imagining the power we could have if we really got our voice and act together. Imagine the kind of leverage we could actually use if we truly pointed in the same direction. And I think that's where we are.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:32:34.492 - 00:33:03.890
Yeah. And I think you've. You've brought this up many times, too. And it's a. It's a massive. It's not just a big tent. It's a massive tent, as you said. Right.
We've got people in urban areas.
We've got hunters, we've got bird watchers, we've got climbers, you know, we've got day skiers, you know, and we also have people on all sorts of ends of the political spectrum. Right. We have Republicans and Democrats all enjoy the outdoors.
So there's this amazing possibility for everyone to kind of come together if, if we can harness it, if we can figure out a way to do it. Right.
Luis Benitez
00:33:04.510 - 00:33:42.162
Yeah, well. And you know, and we're starting to cross pollinate a little bit. Meaning that in years past it's, I'm not talking to the hunting and fishing people.
They, they kill, they kill things. I don't want to, I don't want to. And you know, dirt bikers were in conflict with mountain bikers.
Well, you've got a motor and I don't, you know, and I saw the cross pollination that's happening. You know, there are people that are doing that.
You know, I think of someone like Laura Schaefer, who is the first head of sustainability for Orvis, which is almost 170-year-old fly fishing and bird hunting company. She came from Burton, she came from the snowboarding industry.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:33:42.266 - 00:33:42.674
Great.
Luis Benitez
00:33:42.762 - 00:35:04.689
So she carries that with her. And I call it the garage principle.
If you open anybody's garage, it's an outdoor, outdoor enthusiast, I guarantee you're going to find toys that sort of cross pollinate between streams.
You know, if you open my garage, you're going to find a dirt bike, a mountain bike, a stand up paddle board, there's an ore boat kind of shoved around the corner, you know, so I think we have to get past this idea of, well, I protect the things that are most important to me, but since I don't do all those other things that I just, it just has nothing to do with me.
Very, very few Americans realize that the hunting and fishing industry, because of the excise tax that they placed on through legislation, pay for a majority of conservation and stewardship in the United States. And government funding helps close the gap. So, you know, I get a lot of flack for saying this out loud, but I often ask the question.
$7,000 shotgun, 13% goes into the kitty for conservation and stewardship. $7,000 mountain bike, 0. $800 fly rod, 13% goes into the kitty to help with conservation and stewardship. $800 Pair of skis, zero.
So does the government different approach to this and sort of coalesce the message? Absolutely. Do we need to also grow up a little bit and start being willing to take care of our backyard?
100% that goes hand in hand with where we need to go next.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:35:05.229 - 00:35:44.800
Yeah, I love that. And I think, I mean that's a, that's going to be the next time you're on this podcast, Luis.
I think we can talk about the money and the tax and how that works. That's too big of a question.
But, you know, going back, though, to the National Outdoor Recreation, I think that on the state level level, one thing that's been really impressive, as you said, this was something that started between Republicans and Democrats. Right. And of course, this is. People don't want to. We're so even more polarized right now with the election coming up. Right. But on.
On another level, and you know, if we did have a national office, do you think it would be something that would be able to work outside of political polarization or affected by parties? And how would that be possible?
Luis Benitez
00:35:45.260 - 00:37:53.660
Well, it's. This is where you get into sausage making. So I don't know how deep you want to go, but it truly is.
There's a couple of ways you can get an office like this created. There's sort of a secretarial order. You know, all, all secretaries in the cabinet sort of had a magic wand tucked in a.
Tucked in a closet, and they can pull it out and go, presto, changeo, new office is created. That, to your point, is more beholden to the, the whims of a president and who's in the White House.
If you go through legislation, meaning that you bring legislation forward to propose a function for the federal government, government, it's a little bit more bulletproof in the context that it doesn't matter who's in the White House, that that will continue. And I think that's the avenue that we're pursuing right now.
And the good news about that is that when this process, which is going to start gaining momentum in D.C. turns around and looks to the industry and says, well, who supports this? How do I?
Because, you know, a bill needs Republican and Democratic support to get bipartisan movement in the House and the Senate. The good news is out of those 25 state offices, you've got Republicans and Democrats that could look at it and go, yep, thumbs up.
I put the seal of approval from my state on this effort. So all the effort towards creating all those state offices, and again, there was no strategy around. Ooh, we've got too many Democratic states.
We need to go after a few Republican states. That was never the conversation.
The conversation just was, if you and your governor think you need this, then that's what we're going to do, and we will help you do that. The state directors actually have what I like to call a help desk that literally has a working roadmap through the conservation, you know, questions.
The questions about where should the office be seated?
What's the push, pull with tourism and all those different pieces, there's actually a function to help states create an office, and it's driven by current seated directors. So the directors get together and actually help other states figure out how to get this done.
There is no hidden magic or anything that you protect in terms of secret sauce. It's all out there for public consumption.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:37:54.160 - 00:38:00.520
Republicans, Democrats getting together. It seems like this should be more of a story nationwide. Right.
Luis Benitez
00:38:00.640 - 00:38:34.654
I mean, we always argue that, and I've been saying this out loud a lot lately, which gets me sometimes a few funny looks, that if we truly are what we say, if we truly are one of the few remaining nonpartisan industries and communities in the United States, that it should not matter who gets elected in November, we should wake up the day after the election and keep doing the work that we're doing. And will it impact things a little bit? Sure, because it's getting to know new people in D.C.
but beyond that, it should not impact the things that we're focused on and the work that we're doing.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:38:34.822 - 00:38:42.116
Sure, though there might be differences in how we see land policy or how we see protection, 100%.
Luis Benitez
00:38:42.188 - 00:39:18.664
But if you've built the conversation correctly, you know, in our work with the Trump administration, when, when he was, was in the chair, you know, his son, Donald Trump Jr. Is a very, very, very big hunting and fishing enthusiast. Right.
Really got the, the questions that we were asking with respect to conservation and stewardship. Now, if you get into the conversation with interior and what did they do and how do they do it and. Sure, absolutely.
There's a different school of thought there, but in terms of still being able to have a conversation, we were one of the few corners out there that could work with that White House and actually still get stuff done.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:39:18.832 - 00:40:19.540
And if you care about the outdoors, if you care about it, you've got to step up, no matter who's there, and try to advocate for what you want. So, yeah, yeah, you can't worry about that as much. And I think that gets to an even deeper question, right. About recreation.
And as far as, I think, obviously, recreation is an incredible use of public land and land in general, because it's not mining, it's not logging, it's not an extractive use. Right. But we're still having impacts on places. Right.
And especially as more and more people do what we want them to do, which is spend time outdoor outdoors and get, get out there, more people move to mountain towns.
You know, these places are seeing more and more pressure, you know, and is that an important part of what an outdoor recreation office would do too, would also be maybe slow down recreation in some places, maybe create more permit systems maybe, you know, unfortunately, would it keep more people out of public lands, you know, because we'd have to keep the resource protected for its own sake and for users.
Luis Benitez
00:40:19.700 - 00:44:47.010
Yeah, that's a huge conversation in the United States right now, Doug. I mean, and I try not to scrunch up my face and giggle every time somebody says, like, no more stop. We don't want any many more people coming to.
And then fill in the blank. Because usually my response is, okay, so let's just, let's play this all the way out.
Would you look another person in the eye who is looking to recreate in, fill in the blank place with their family? Maybe it's their first time ever doing a trip like this. Maybe it's their 50th time doing a trip like this.
Would you be able to look another American in the eye and tell them that you, sorry, sorry, closed. You can't go there because there's too many people. And so if you can't go there, then can I not go there either? And so who decides on that access?
So we've got to get past this conversation of the closed for business thing because there's just no way to do it. Except for what you mentioned, what we're starting to see right now, timed entries into national park.
So if you're going to come, you're going to get a timed entry.
Or if a place is so heavily impacted that it needs to be regulated, think about the permits for Hanging Lake, which used to be a fun afternoon hike, hike. Now you need a permit to go up there. So will a regulatory environment start to impact this a little bit more?
There has always been and will always be a push pull for some of those things. I think the larger question that we should be asking is how are we actually, you know, government's good at a lot of things.
It's not good at marketing.
And so when you start to think about how we're talking about all the different places and spaces where we can play and where we can recreate, I think one of the challenges that we have right now is we tend to focus on the biggest and the brightest and the best. Those are the things that get the most traffic and attention.
But when you really talk about, and you know, some people will get upset about saying, well, spreading out the impact versus concentrating the impact.
So do you want to have a beat down trail and then what this one spot and sort of sacrifice it quote unquote, or do you want to show people more opportunities for more places to recreate? I think the push pull for that not only comes with government, but it also comes with academia.
You know, you talk to anybody in the Forest Service or even the BLM about finding seasonal field workers beyond the budgets of actually paying those folks. There aren't many people signing up for those jobs. They're not really seeing those as viable career trajectories and things.
They love the outdoors, but they're just not sure how to put it together. So I'm going to go do something else and just find a way to spend time outside.
And so I think one of the questions we need to start asking ourselves is how do we define service in the United States? And what does that look like in terms of, you know, we've had AmeriCorps, we now have Climate Corps.
We have all these different pieces where I think the White House has tried to encourage this, this engagement through a level of service for a little bit of time in a young adult's life.
But I don't think we've actually hit the mark yet in really understanding how to encourage folks like the Civilian Conservation Corps under Roosevelt's administration like, this is purely about spending time outside. We're going to put you out on a trail crew, we're going to repair this stuff. You're going to have roles to overwatch some of these things.
And in exchange for X amount of time of service, six months, nine months, a year, kind of like AmeriCorps and Climate Corp have done, you're going to get Z credits towards your degree or, you know, preferential loans for whatever you want to do next. So the opportunities are there.
And I'll go back to the federal office again in to encourage these conversations because the impact of recreation is not going to lessen. I think the pandemic sealed that deal. It ended the conversation. Turns out spending time outside is good for you.
Everybody figured it out and they're going to keep coming. And not only they're going to keep coming, but they're bringing their kids along with them. And so now their kids are going to be doing it.
And so this recreating in a responsible way all these things that we have this huge kaleidoscope of NGOs in our industry, from Leave no Trace to, you know, the 14ers initiative, to in Colorado here, just across the country, that focus on these things, NGO support is not going to be enough for this ecosystem to really understand how to manage, mitigate and define Impact moving into the next decade, we're going to, we're going to have to look at it differently through a federal lens.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:44:47.170 - 00:45:02.250
And when we do that, do you think we can get all these people going outdoors to see the outdoors as something that needs to be preserved for its own sake, beyond just a place to play? Beyond, you know.
Luis Benitez
00:45:02.790 - 00:46:59.874
Yeah, this is, you know, and when I think of marketing efforts in the United States, where you really are working to change the mindset of every American, no matter who it is, I don't know, we're all the same generation. So you probably remember the initiative to get everybody to wear seatbelts. It was when we were kids. Right.
But it was, it was literally this onslaught of market marketing that just basically said, I don't care what you believe in, I don't care if you don't like them. I don't care if you think it's. It ruins your tie or your shirt.
We dug into this a little bit just to see how long it took really to change the American mindset around some of these things.
And so when you look at a campaign like that that required national level coordination, a budget and time to really change, change how people thought about what that meant, not only for their safety, but for the safety of those that they love.
And so when you start looking at us and our industry and you think about wildfire, you think about climate impact mitigation, for things that we're seeing from Hurricane Helene, you're thinking about all these other things. We're talking about the same thing. I'll take anybody that would challenge me on that mindset. We're literally talking about the same thing thing.
And we're talking about a resource that protects our air, protects our climate, protects public health, all of those different things. So if we're really going to get into this, it's going to take a campaign like that to start changing it. Can states do it? You betcha.
And there are a lot of states that do work on these questions, but I think with that federal level coordination, like things like that, and I'm sure I can point to three. So there was the seatbelt, there was also the smoking and. Yeah, yeah.
So those are really the three national campaigns that change the course of how Americans felt about those three things. And I think that's what it's going to take.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:47:00.042 - 00:47:18.786
I love that. Yeah.
I mean, there are easy ways to, you know, find to get people change their behavior and change their mindset without making it feel like forced government intervention or making someone do something. Right. I think you're right. Littering, smoking, you know, just better attitudes in general. I love that.
Luis Benitez
00:47:18.858 - 00:48:00.036
Yeah. Well, I mean, think about the campaign that's going on right now. Getting Every American within 10 minute walk of green space. That's a huge thing.
There are a ton of states that are pushing that. It's attached to public health, but it's also attached to sort of, how do you define amenities and quality of life in communities?
And so if you're encouraging a 10 minute walk to green space, which usually comes along with walking your kids to a park, and then that kid gets exposed to understanding the benefits of that and that kid grows up seeing the importance of that. The next generations are already coming and engaging and doing these things.
So the responsibility level just multiplies the further and further out you get with this dialogue.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:48:00.148 - 00:48:17.890
There's going to be a lot of pressure against what we want and what we're doing too. Right.
I mean, there's going to be a lot of people who are going to want to build on this land, take it, use it, and there's going to be a lot of arguments. I think that that's more equitable to actually give this land away. Right. And how do we fight against that?
Luis Benitez
00:48:18.430 - 00:50:05.840
Well, sort of pull the thread on that. Right. So we as an industry talk a lot about rural economic development.
We talk about the fact that a rural community, if they engage in appropriate utilization of these resources, that you could actually have, have economic development. So getting back to Arkansas, you look at a place like Bentonville, well, where Walmart is housed.
Never really focused on this till the Walmart kids, till the Walton kids moved back to town and started looking around and going, well, gosh, we love mountain biking. There's nothing here.
We just like to figure out this ecosystem and I think it would help with not only economic development, but we could actually recruit executives for Walmart to town because the quality of life would change, Main street would change, change. And so now Bentonville, Arkansas. And I don't know if you ever went to Bentonville before all this happened.
I did because my American grandfather was from Conway, Arkansas, right down the road. I remember what Bentonville was like and there was not a lot going on.
And they have reshaped the conversation around quality of life, mostly centered around mountain biking and paddle boarding in that community.
And, and so I think if you look at that, you say, well, wait a minute, if we change access to land and you have economic development like that, isn't that a good thing? Doesn't that help elevate the middle class Isn't that what we should be doing now?
If you're saying no because it's public land, but isn't this the public that's benefiting economically? So this needs to be a very smart, very collaborative conversation that can't happen in a bubble.
Which is why I think we're working so hard to be ready for this federal level conversation, to be able to do this in a very measured, thoughtful way, having the right stakeholders at the table.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:50:06.420 - 00:50:11.036
I love it. I'm ready to join up. I think I already have joined up.
Luis Benitez
00:50:11.108 - 00:50:14.320
I was about to say, I think you have joined up already, Doug.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:50:14.740 - 00:50:24.740
Unfortunately, I think we are running short on time too. We could talk forever. As you said, I think that you're going to be. What did we say? You're going to be the 25th guest on this podcast every time.
Luis Benitez
00:50:24.860 - 00:50:31.332
Well, if I'm the first on your year anniversary, I've got a. Don't I come back. Are you supposed to bring the first guest back on the year anniversary?
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:50:31.396 - 00:50:34.484
We're just going to have a massive group of people on here talking.
Luis Benitez
00:50:34.612 - 00:50:37.636
I think that would be fantastic. You could invite all the state directors.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:50:37.748 - 00:50:56.424
That's great. That would be great. Yeah. But I think that comes down to something I want to do.
The last question I want to ask you and something I want to ask everyone at the end of this podcast because I think it's important and what we should be thinking about. And it is looking at all the problems in the world, all the problems you face, everybody, everything.
What gives you hope when you look at the world now.
Luis Benitez
00:50:56.592 - 00:51:47.840
Boy, it's going to sound so cliche, but my 8 year old daughter gives me hope spending time with her outside. Doug, and I know you know this as a parent, it just your perspective changes when the little ones show up.
And she not only is enamored by all these things outside and loves playing outside and rafting and a little bit of climbing, climbing and a little bit of mountain biking. Even as an eight year old.
But she understands the questions that we're asking and to her second grade mind seems so straightforward, like, well, duh, why wouldn't we protect the air and the water and the land? Like really, who wants to hurt that? Like how? Who. Who's the person that's saying that this should not be taken care of?
So the inspiration I draw from her and her friends are really what get me out of bed in the morning.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:51:48.460 - 00:52:06.800
Love it. Love it. Well, Luis, as I said, I could keep talking to you for another hour. I would love to at some point again.
In the meantime, it would be great if you could tell everybody how they can get your book and maybe too how they can find out more information about outdoor recreation departments and even the possibility for a national department.
Luis Benitez
00:52:07.100 - 00:52:28.300
Yeah, thanks Doug for the book it's pretty easy. You just go to highergroundbook.com and for the state offices there's this great website called Confluence.
So it's really easy to find information on the states, what they're doing, how they're doing it. And so if you want to check out how that's progressing, feel free to go to that website.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:52:28.840 - 00:52:38.512
Amazing. Well, thanks again Luis and thanks for everyone for tuning into Open Container.
Look forward to seeing you more and seeing Luis on the one year anniversary.
Luis Benitez
00:52:38.576 - 00:52:39.620
Thanks Doug.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:52:40.200 - 00:52:52.860
Thanks to my guest Luis Benitez. I appreciate you checking out our first episode episode. We want your feedback.
Please send your emails to myrock fight gmail.com we'll be back soon with our next episode. Thanks for listening.