Today on the show Colin and his guest talk about an overlooked opportunity for inclusivity and revenue in the outdoor industry.
Outdoor apparel brands are missing a significant opportunity by not offering more sizes. Andrea Kelly, founder of Make Plus Equal, joins The Rock Fight to emphasize the importance of size inclusivity in the outdoor industry but also how a lack of information and awareness about the size-inclusive market has led to missed financial opportunities for brands.
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Episode Transcript
Colin True
00:00:00.400 - 00:00:56.628
Welcome to the Rock Flight where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head.
I'm Colin True and today we'll be talking about the growing opportunity that outdoor apparel brands have when it comes to plus sizes with the founder of make plus Equal, Andrea Kelly. But first, it's been a busy week here on the old Rock Flight.
On Monday we talked about outdoor brands poor performance on TikTok and we also talked with Owen Comerford about the rumored MEC sale. On Wednesday, Justin Hausman and I were joined by Doug Schmidt Nitsbana talk about his new podcast here on the Rock Fight Podcast Network.
That show was called Open Container. You should follow it wherever you get your podcasts. We also had our first Everest story of the year and answered listener mailbag questions.
And lastly, if you're new around here, we would love it if you subscribed and joined the Rock Fight by hitting the follow button on whatever podcast app you are listening to us on. And also, you know what, give us that five star rating. All right, let's start the show.
Chris DeMakes
00:00:56.684 - 00:01:00.640
Welcome to the Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Colin True
00:01:02.940 - 00:01:05.156
You're listening to Rock Fight Radio.
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Colin True
00:02:04.550 - 00:05:05.956
Welcome back to rockflight Radio. I'm DJCT and that was Bold Sock, the newest track from Fitz.
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With all new branding and new packaging on the way, the time is now to get in on a refreshed sock wall for spring and fall. All right, let's get back to the show. Is there anything worse than when someone answers the question why is something the way it is?
With because that's the way we've always done it. Actually, you know what? I'm not even going to ask that question. I'm just going to say it right now.
There is nothing worse than answering the question why is something the way it is? Because that's the way we've always done it. Especially when it comes to the outdoor industry and industry.
I'll remind you probably for the thousandth time in the history of this podcast, that only exists in its current form because of innovation and solving problems. And I know there's a big percentage of you listening to this right now who work in the outdoor industry at apparel brands in the outdoor industry.
And if I said to you person who works at an outdoor apparel brand, does your apparel brand support inclusivity and diversity and equity for those who've been marginalized?
Your answer would probably be something like, oh yeah, of course we have DEI efforts that we're proud of and our CFO is a woman and we have this initiative and that initiative and so on. And if I followed up that first question with another question that was does your outdoor apparel brand offer plus sizes?
Your answer would probably be, well, no.
And if I followed up those first two questions with one more question that was Are you aware of how many consumers and how much money your outdoor apparel brand is leaving on the table?
The absolutely mind blowing amount of money that exists for a group of people who have been marginalized, have very little access to gear and apparel, but also have outdoorsy aspirations. Does your brand have any idea the number that is just sitting there waiting for someone to claim it? Your answer would still probably be no.
And that's why my guest today is Andrea Kelly, the founder of make plus Equal.
Andrea is a leading size inclusion expert in outdoor apparel with 25 years of experience building products for some of the largest global brands in the outdoor space like Columbia.
With her company, make plus Equal, she combines her business expertise and passion for inclusion with her lived experiences of being an outdoor enthusiast in the plus size community. Welcome back to the Rock Fight, where today we're talking size inclusivity with Andrea Kelly.
All right, I'm joined now by size inclusion expert Andrea Kelly, who has worked in and around the outdoor industry for over 25 years.
She's the founder of Make Plus Equal, a company that is recalibrating the outdated norm of sizing in the industry so that more people can get outside to do the things they love. Welcome to the Show Andrea.
Andrea Kelly
00:05:06.068 - 00:05:07.172
Hey, thanks for having me.
Colin True
00:05:07.196 - 00:05:10.084
Colin, how's the weather in Portland?
Andrea Kelly
00:05:10.212 - 00:05:12.880
Why would you ask you know the answer to that question?
Colin True
00:05:13.340 - 00:05:17.668
Because I'm in Southern California and everyone's afraid we're going to burn to death. So I wanted to hold it.
Andrea Kelly
00:05:17.804 - 00:05:28.320
I would say my air quality is probably better than your air quality. It is cold and dreary. But I'm getting on a plane to go to Florida tomorrow, so, you know. Oh, I got no complaints.
Colin True
00:05:29.300 - 00:05:31.788
January is an excellent time to be in Florida.
Andrea Kelly
00:05:31.884 - 00:05:33.276
I think so too.
Colin True
00:05:33.428 - 00:05:37.020
Other times where it's not excellent to be in Florida, but January, not bad.
Andrea Kelly
00:05:37.140 - 00:05:37.820
Yeah.
Colin True
00:05:37.980 - 00:06:16.020
Okay. So there have been, you know, I think various attempts to expand size offerings of apparel lines over the years. Right.
And it's undeniable that regardless of race, sex, country of origin, whatever, there are plenty of people who won't fit into the, you know, typical size ranges that we all experience our day to day to day lives of, you know, extra small to, let's say double xl. So what I wanted to start with is kind of how we got here.
Like how are we in the sort of extra small to double XL as an as only what our options are typically for most people. For most people, shopping excursions in an apparel store. Right. So what's actually the history of plus sizes?
Why, why are we where we are and what have you uncovered doing the work that you do?
Andrea Kelly
00:06:16.640 - 00:06:54.626
Yeah, well, I can tell you that. Well, the answer of why we are where we are is because we didn't have enough information.
And I'll come back around to that when I sort of give you the timeline. Obviously the older we get, the further along we move in history, the more we learn and hopefully the more we change.
And information has been coming at us very quickly, fortunately, which has allowed us to sort of change the history. Plus sizes really started actually back in the 20s by a brand that everybody has heard of. It's Lane Bryant, 1920s. 19 fair. Oh God.
Colin True
00:06:54.818 - 00:06:56.274
We have to do that now. Right?
Andrea Kelly
00:06:56.362 - 00:13:03.270
We do have to do that now. Sorry. Gen Xers on this call are not struggling. I know, I know. The 19th century, the beginning of the 19th century.
Founded the first brand was Lane Bryant and it was initially, it was actually a maternity wear company that eventually evolved into Mrs. Plus size product way, way back. And most of us know that because it's been around forever.
It is still one of the brick and mortar stores that you can actually go in that's custom for plus sized people and you can try things on and buy them off the rack. There was a Brand that came out around 1980. And I will say that the plus really started with fashion, not outdoor. Outdoor came by much later.
So Marina Rinaldi was a high end designer in 1980s that came out. And then in 1990s, around 2001, Torrid actually started building products for the plus size people.
So for the plus size folks who are out there already, you know those two brands, it's Lane Bryant and it's Torrid. Those are the two shops that we can absolutely walk into, buy what we need and walk out. That's still the case today. Nothing else is guaranteed.
It started shifting into outdoor in the late 90s and then early 2000s with Eddie Bauer and Columbia. They were the first outdoor brands that were actually making plus size product for men and women.
Although it was pretty meager, but there were still options, which was great. But what really happened I think was the age of information and 2010 when social media really started ramping up.
All of a sudden this community of marginalized people who'd been left out forever finally started finding their voice. So you started seeing a lot more.
Well, I don't even think they had reels back in 2010, but you started seeing a lot of posts and a lot of hashtags around body positivity and body neutrality and size acceptance and all of these things. So it sort of started gaining some momentum then.
And I think what really, really shifted for specifically for the outdoor industry, but for the plus size industry in general was in 2015 there was a study done by Plunket and the findings that they found were that 67% of women in North America were plus sized. And I don't think I'm gonna say that again. 67% of women in North America were plus sized. And that was in 2015.
I looked at an article from the CDC in 2018 that now included men and women and actually states that 72% of people in the United States are either obese or overweight. And we're not gonna get into how I feel about those terms. Cause those are. But yeah, that I think was the big eye opener for everybody.
Especially I mean even personally for me of like, oh wait a minute, we're not the minority. We're not some side. Nobody needs to pay attention. We're actually the majority of people. We are the majority of people.
The majority people are plus sized. And I think that's when things really started to change.
So in 2015, universal standard first started carrying their lines and they are like the pinnacle of apparel when it comes to plus. Sizes, high end quality products, great for the office, a little bit of casual wear, a little bit of activewear.
But they were the first ones to say, you know what, the sizing that everybody's been doing is bullshit. And offering only a couple colors and big sizes is bullshit.
We're going to offer everything from size 0 to size 40, I think is what they go up to now, which is the equivalent of like a 6x and in all colors and all for the same price. So it's so funny.
Like I've known about them since they came to be and at one point I was explaining the process of like, look, they make everything for everybody as should be the universal standard. Oh, what a great brand name. Like it just went bing. That's why they did that. So 2015 was sort of that big change. They were founded, 2016 was huge.
Ashley Graham was the first plus size model on the Sports Illustrated cover at a size a whopping size 16. The average is a size 18 to 20 now. So a little bit of evolution there. And then again, things really started sort of ramping up there.
So 2017, REI came out with their Force of Nature campaign, which initially they had thought about running this campaign as let's be more gender inclusive. It's always a skinny white guy hanging off a rock. Why it shouldn't be a skinny white guy hanging off a rock.
But the deeper they dug, the more they found that, oh, it's not just gender that's an issue, it's a size issue too. So maybe let's tap into that a little bit. 2018, Prana came out with some plus size stuff and then 2020 was huge.
So again, you find this news around 2015 of the actual facts of what's needed. And then in a five year wind, you have smaller brands coming in like Elder Apparel and Alpine Parrot.
You've got online plus size retailers like Alpine Curves, which is now Kinsa Active, plus Snow and plus Outdoor. So now you're starting to actually see some people actually paying attention.
And honestly, it was the smaller brands that really started kicking it off because they were far more nimble than the larger ones in that window. Also in that 2015, 2018 time, I think around 2017, actually Columbia, I know, dove very deep into plus sizes. I know because I led that charge.
And as a, as a large corporation, we were actually more nimble to do that much like the smaller brands because we were already making the product. It wasn't like we were starting from scratch. So it was really a matter of really paying attention.
Really Tapping into the consumer base and really dialing things up rather than starting from the ground up. So both Columbia and Eddie Bauer really had a leg up for some of those larger brands because they were already in the game.
They just had to pay more attention to it. Then Outdoor Research came out with an extended line, and then Plus Sizes LL Bean ramped up their lines.
REI came out with trailmade, Cotopaxi, North Face, Thicket. So brands have been trickling in and trickling in and trickling in.
But it was really right around 2015 when that study came out that everybody went, wait, how many people are we missing out on? How many people are we marginalizing? So how much money are we not making? Which, yes, I.
Colin True
00:13:03.390 - 00:14:08.156
It's actually somewhat encouraging, and I think this is the kind of the, the larger history of the industry to think that if there's even some shred of evidence that it was happening in like, the late 90s, early 2000s. Yeah, it was starting to dabble, at least. It's like, that's pretty early on in these sort of modern outdoor industry. Right.
So it's kind of like, okay, sure, that's interesting.
And also I, I'm not excusing, but I also understanding, like, the, especially the history, the poor history of the industry of, like, to your point, you know, we just cater to the skinny white guy in the mountain. If people are just making profits doing that, maybe they're not looking at other people who are marginalized to make their money.
Whether that's intentional or just, you know, ignorance, whichever way, it's not great, but it's. You can understand it even if you don't condone it. Right, right. Why though, if. If it's such a. If that number, like the 60, do you.
Do we have any idea why? Just the kind of fashion industry in general is there's been two options until the mid-2010s.
You'd think with that, with a number that large of like the 60%, that's a big part of the population we're talking about. Right. Like, why do you think that, like, we haven't. There wasn't more options kind of leading into this more recent era?
Andrea Kelly
00:14:08.348 - 00:14:14.300
I, you know, I would have to say, I mean, it really comes with lack of information. Nobody was talking about it back then.
Colin True
00:14:14.340 - 00:14:14.780
Yeah.
Andrea Kelly
00:14:14.860 - 00:14:35.410
And I think that that one of the things that we have seen. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna lean on the, the female side of the equation here.
One of the things that we have seen, and not to get too deep into politics, but with politics the way they've been and with leadership the way they've been. One of the benefits of what has come out of our political landscape is women are pissed off and speaking up.
Colin True
00:14:35.790 - 00:14:36.598
Yeah.
Andrea Kelly
00:14:36.774 - 00:14:53.722
People are finally starting to not feel shitty about who they are and not judge themselves about who they are and accept who they are and actually honestly demand equality. You know, back then, back in the 1920s, women were not outspoken. Absolutely not. You know, here we are, there was.
Colin True
00:14:53.746 - 00:15:02.762
A very big culture in general of like, well, we just don't. We just don't talk about those things. That's sort of like, that was the overriding philosophy for a lot of stuff. Right. Until very recently.
Andrea Kelly
00:15:02.866 - 00:16:05.778
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, I mean, I fully believe it was lack of information and the way the landscape has changed.
There is more of a platform now for people, some people, People like me, to feel more comfortable about speaking up and calling out the inequities and doing something about it. So I do blame it on a lack of information. I do also believe that there has been a stigma and there still remains to be a stigma around size.
There are several brands that don't want their product seen on people like that. I mean, there's a huge fatphobia piece of it as well.
You know, I worked for a company in the early 2000s and their statement was, if you have a body, you are an athlete. Yet we didn't make any product that fit me. So there's, there's been evolution. But, you know, I think, I think it's a little bit of both.
Fatphobia was, was and still remains a huge issue.
And then just women and people of size starting to feel more comfortable and starting to actually step up and demand what's rightfully theirs as well.
Colin True
00:16:05.904 - 00:16:34.138
Well, and that's why, you know, influencers in the last, you know, what, a couple of decades coming out, the Marley Blonsky's of the world, the Myrna Valerios of the world, like, just people who are unafraid to sort of just put themselves out there and embody what you just described of like, I have a body, I'm an athlete, then you know, that's why those people are important. Right. And there is where it can inspire change and lead change.
So when you look at who's doing, who's doing plus size as well today, would you say, is there anyone out there who's like, really leading the charge?
Andrea Kelly
00:16:34.334 - 00:19:50.280
Well, I will say outs. My favorite go to. I will say outside of the outdoor industry specific, I've always looked to Athleta. Athleta, however, we pronounce it.
They've done a really good job in my experience. I know that not everybody has had the same experiences. One thing that I love on their website is it's not straight sizes and plus sizes.
It's not extra large, extra small through extra large and then plus sizes. Their website actually is extra small through extra large and then 1x to 3x. It's just the numbers. It's really just the numbers.
So I love that about it. But I also love that they are actually leaning in with their representation, too. They're not just making the product.
I walk into an Athleta store, and there's a cluster of mannequins that are all different shapes and sizes. And I think the gals in the Portland store think I'm a nut job because every time I walk in, I hug the mannequins because I'm happy to see them.
But it tells me that I'm supposed to be there, right? Like, and it's interesting. I've talked a lot about being welcome, you know, welcoming us. We don't really want to be welcome.
To me, welcome feels like a plus one. Like, we didn't build it for you, but you could come. Belonging is the word that I'm kind of sticking around.
And when I walk into that store, I feel like I belong. I can shop with my girlfriend, who's a size 12, and she and I can shop on the same rack. Oh, look, they have one for you. Oh, my gosh. We could twin.
I mean, I'm not going to, but, like, that experience of being able to shop with your friend and not being stuck in a corner somewhere by yourself is huge. So I really applaud them for not only making the product, advertising the product, connecting with the consumer and making it accessible.
I think they do a fantastic job. They don't make everything in plus sizes, which is fine.
But what's great is they specify that I walk in and I look at a rack of sports bras, and it says extra small to extra large. I don't have to waste my time going through that rack. This one goes up to my size. Fantastic. They have to make it clear.
So I think Athleta has done a really, really good job. I think in the outdoor space. I think the two that I think have done a really good job are outdoor research.
And obviously, I'm going to say Columb Columbia's been around a really, really long time. And, you know, we worked really hard to blow out the line and give people more options. I think outdoor research Did a really great job too.
I know some of the athletes that they worked with who are plus sized and they worked really, really hard to keep them engaged. The representation on their page looks amazing. It's easy to find their product.
One thing that's interesting about those two, and there's work to be done in both, I think Columbia really still needs to work on their size range at some point because it stops at a 3x for women's, but goes up to a 6x for men's. So there's room for improvement.
The interesting thing though is that even though both brands used a size 1X model to build out their product, they fit differently because those models are built differently. Which means one brand might fit you and one brand might not, which sounds terrible.
But actually in my opinion, that's a good thing because if we standardized dyes the fit and we picked one model to rule them all, there's a ton of people that aren't going to find what they need. So I'm glad that I can't wear outdoor research because it means that people who aren't built like me can fit in their product. They have an option.
So that's where the diversity actually lies.
Colin True
00:19:50.700 - 00:21:01.642
So as far as the larger sort of initiative goes, right, I mean, one of my experiences working as a sales manager and everything is a sneaky sort of unspoken spoken thing that dictates a lot of decisions made by people who buy things. Whether it's a buyer in a retail store or someone who's designing fabric and you know, to acquire that, you know, the fabric or whatever it is.
That apathy tends to sort of play a huge role in the buying decisions.
You know, when I was at a, I was selling pro bars and like, you know, you go in and sell it to the nutrition guy and if they just didn't have time for you, no matter what, how good of a sales program you could put in front of them. If they're just like, I just don't care, man. You know, it's like, all right, I guess we're not going to sell you now. So I mean, do you run into that?
I have to think there's a, there's got to be some resistance of like, oh, look, you know, we, we have our sizes, we, we don't really need it. We don't really need, need to expand it because.
And the one thing you told me when we first spoke a few weeks ago was about how there's money to be made here. This isn't just the, like, you should do this because it's the right thing to do. Like, this is actually a, there's a lot of upside.
And so you wonder about how do you kind of get the people who are probably throwing up roadblocks, but also make them see the fact that like, hey, you're leaving money on the table. If you don't sort of explore this.
Andrea Kelly
00:21:01.666 - 00:21:14.666
As an option, well, you, you hope that they'll do that, do it out of the kindness of their heart and to do the right thing. But then you show them the money. I mean, honestly, honestly, kind of, that's.
Colin True
00:21:14.698 - 00:21:16.314
The path on a lot of things, isn't it?
Andrea Kelly
00:21:16.402 - 00:21:42.622
If, if 70% of the population is plus sized, the majority of the brands are building product for 30% of the population.
So in this last year where the outdoor industry like dug its heels in and put on the E brake and laid people off and tightened their belts, money was tight. Why don't you sell to the masses of people with fists full of dollars who have been waiting for you to come along and sell to them?
Colin True
00:21:42.806 - 00:21:57.032
And if you want to do something about equity and to improve, to expand, who's able to buy your products and go outside and welcome different people into our community? How about there's 70% of people who can't currently do it?
Andrea Kelly
00:21:57.136 - 00:22:48.080
Right? Right?
And I will tell you the plus size community, if you get it right and you earn their trust and you're not doing it just for the buck, like if you have a little bit of heart behind it, they are the most loyal customers you will find because they have been waiting for fucking ever 100 years. We established that, to participate for fucking ever.
So and I will tell you, these communities that I'm in, Facebook groups and online chats and all the. We all talk and we have shitty experiences in stores. We tell everybody when we have amazing experiences. Oh, I'm looking for a new bib.
Oh my God, I just tried the new blah blah blah bib from Truegear and we all talk. It's infectious. So it is money on the table.
And I'm telling you, we've been waiting for years and years and years and years to find gear that fits us, us so we can do all the things with our friends that they've been doing all along.
Colin True
00:22:48.200 - 00:22:59.792
So what? So make plus SQL. So like what, what is your day to day? Are you, are you advising brands?
Are you trying to change, you know, get, get people to have these realizations that we're talking about? Like what, what is, what is the work that you're doing on a Day.
Andrea Kelly
00:22:59.816 - 00:24:43.250
To day basis it is 99% education and that is either in educating. Well, it's a couple different things. So the education happens on both sides. It's educating brands.
Did you know that 67 to 72% of it's all, it's all the things that we've talked about. It's helping them understand, it's connecting them with athletes, it's helping them understand the why.
It's helping them with their pricing because you know what, it's not cheap to make plus sizes, I'm not gonna lie. But there's, there's a way to do it. So it's educating them on how this can be done in a way that is still profitable.
The other half of it comes in public speaking. Here we are on a podcast. I'm speaking at fatcon at the end of this month and that's a complet different audience to me.
That's, that's the plus size community. I don't need to tell them those stories. Those are their stories. Like they already know that.
But what I can do is I can educate them on the behind the scenes of why does it take so long? Did you know that the product process takes 18 months? That's why you can't have it now. You know, here are all the reasons why the companies say no.
Doesn't mean it's the right answer. But here's the why behind it. Because I think when we all know more, we do better, right? We all benefit from information.
So I am either educating brands on how to serve a community that frankly a lot of them are afraid of, they don't want to fuck it up. It's real delicate. And what terms do we use? Do we call them fat? How do we even talk to them? How do we earn their trust?
So I spend my time doing that, but then I also spend my time in public speaking educating the plus size community on what the facts really are behind it. Not so much as a defense of the corporate world, but let me give you some more information so at least you have an understanding.
Colin True
00:24:43.410 - 00:25:14.530
Again, everything on paper. To my point earlier, like, you know, apathy is going to play a role here. Getting people on board education, to your point is key to all of this.
And, and it is nice that there is a kind of simple explanation to say to folks of like, you can make more money if you pursue this correctly.
Yeah, the brands I would see almost as a, and, and sort of the, the, the market, the players in a marketplace, the brands almost feel like the, the easier win it's like, look, you can make more money. Money. You can, you can do the right thing.
You can, you can increase participation in outdoor sports just by providing the goods in order to let more people do them.
Andrea Kelly
00:25:14.650 - 00:25:19.634
And you already have the infrastructure to do it. You already have the factories and the patterns and that. Yeah.
Colin True
00:25:19.682 - 00:25:48.652
If you don't want to do units exercises, well, guess what? All we're saying is just make, make it bigger. Whatever there's more you could do. Cost goes up a little bit. Here's how you navigate that.
Those, those waters, all those things. The retail side, though, is that, is that a little bit more challenge? Right.
Because now they, these are some especially small independent shops sort of have built their business based off of the current, you know, availability of sizes. So if there's going to be more, how do we problem solve for that?
How do we kind of get ahead of that and how do we establish that as a viable place for this.
Andrea Kelly
00:25:48.676 - 00:27:19.966
Stuff to be sold and that, I mean, that is a big shift too. Managing the retail space is really, really tricky because there's only so much floor space. It's really, really tricky.
And, you know, I had a lot of push and pull in my previous role at Columbia with the retail team about, you know, well, you can't sell it if it's not on the floor. Well, we have these three main styles. Yeah. The dude that buys that style has bought it in all the three colors.
And if those are the only things you put on the floor, he will never buy anything else from you. So I think it's really, really interesting. I think there is this fear and disbelief that if you build it, they will come.
Like, why would we risk taking some of these sizes off the floor and putting more plus sizes in? Because the numbers are there and if you're too afraid to try, you'll. You'll never see that happen. Right. Take a look at the size curves. There's.
There's more people. I remember we touched on Old Navy when they first came out with their body. What do they call it? I don't remember what it called.
I should remember what they call their campaign. But when they went full size inclusive in stores all the way to 6x, I remember going in before Black Friday and the store was, was back.
Like, you couldn't get through some of the fixtures. It was, it was a lot. But I found my sizes. It was great. It was super cool.
I went back the day after Black Friday and I could not find anything over a size large. All of the larger product had sold out and Everything that was left was smalls and mediums and larges, so.
Colin True
00:27:20.038 - 00:27:20.862
Interesting.
Andrea Kelly
00:27:21.006 - 00:27:22.490
Tell me what's going to sell.
Colin True
00:27:23.190 - 00:28:21.580
Yeah, I got to think, you know, I've talked to some retailers this past fall who really expanded their, you know, secondhand options and, you know, and you kind of think like, oh, they sell secondhand stuff in their store. That. That's, that's great. Good for you. And you just kind of it in your head that, like, people bring. It's a consignment shop.
People bring things in and it's like this nice little section of the store, like, oh, some dirty gear and whatever. No, actually there's folks who have really. It's a meaningful part of the trailhead in Missoula, Montana. It's 20% of. Of their business now.
And there's a. It's a whole system about what they do with it, where it goes if it doesn't sell. And it's a meaningful part of that retailer's business.
It took dedicating space and dedicating. Dedicating to the initiative itself. And again, this is where another opportunity for the outdoor industry to lead. This is another form of innovation.
It's like, look, we have a consumer base in need. We have brands who are providing those things.
How do we get it in the hands of the people who need it and can also make positive change for the outdoor adventure space? And also, guess what? You'll make money doing it.
Andrea Kelly
00:28:21.880 - 00:29:07.804
Yes. And it's interesting that you refer to it as innovation. Chris Pugh from TRU was on a podcast with Justine Moulier. French name, just a wild thought.
And. And I've true. Was actually one of my first clients. I love them. They're amazing and they make killer product.
Like, it is the most technical outdoor gear that I have ever worn. It's which we deserve. It's fantastic. And in that podcast interview with Justine, he used that as innovation because, like, where do you go?
You already have the technical fabrics, you already have the seam sealing, you have the technical construction. Like, what else is next from innovation? Yeah, you can keep dreaming up fabrics, but three layers, Three layers, three layers.
Colin True
00:29:07.852 - 00:29:09.612
You're not going to add some stretch, whatever.
Andrea Kelly
00:29:09.756 - 00:29:16.412
Yeah, right. So to him, innovation is getting the product to more people. Size inclusion.
Colin True
00:29:16.556 - 00:29:20.236
It's problem solving. Innovation is problem solving, Right, Exactly. The problem solving.
Andrea Kelly
00:29:20.268 - 00:29:26.964
It doesn't necessarily have to be about the, the product you're building. There's innovation in processes. There's in. Yeah, all of it.
Colin True
00:29:27.012 - 00:30:10.690
That, yeah. The problems we were solving in the 80s and 90s were like hey, can this keep me warm when it's wet? Is it lighter? Is it, is it what? Blah, blah, blah.
Well, we've solved all of those problems.
And if you're an outdoor brand that is still trying to solve those problems a little bit better, you're kind of getting left behind because we, we moved on to how do we make it more sustainably, how do we, how do we actually have a circular economy? How do, how do we create different categories so that are, we're serving more people and making more money and blah, blah, blah.
It's like, well, these, these are the problems to solve solve. So, yeah, it is an innovation story, which is always an outdoor story as far as I'm concerned.
Yeah, I guess last thing, like, if, if there is a brand that's listening and they are, and they're plus size curious, where would you.
Andrea Kelly
00:30:12.830 - 00:30:13.878
That'S funny.
Colin True
00:30:14.054 - 00:30:31.230
What would you, what would, where would you lead them? Like, what, what is the, the right path into on the products?
I mean, obviously it's a lot to say, hey, take your entire range and you know, increase your output in terms of sizes. But like, what's the, what's the most needed product category, would you say? Obviously all of it.
But like, if you were going to start somewhere, where would you start?
Andrea Kelly
00:30:32.250 - 00:31:57.458
You know, I would still. That's a tricky one because I can say, well, base layer, because it goes with everything and you can use it year round. Sure.
Outerwear, because you can use it. You know, I would, I would still say outerwear.
I think there are, there are a couple small brands that have touched on hiking pants, which is great, but, but that's all they make and that's fine. I think you have to start small. I still think there's a lot. I mean, I think there's a lot of space in any category, frankly.
I know North Face started their plus size line, I want to say, two seasons ago, and it was just ski and snowboard and that is it. That's it. And I think they have a hiking path that they've had for a really long time.
But, you know, I think it's, it sort of depends on your brand's direction. I think for the North Face, you know, snow makes sense for them. If it was Burton, that would make sense for them. Right.
It depends on what your brand is.
But if you're taking a look at a company that spans all of it, you know, it's interesting because my gut says start with your best sellers, but the problem with best sellers is that's not how people shop. And that's when I, when I came into play at Columbia, that's what they were selling on. Plus sizes was bestsellers.
And I was like, but I want to buy an outfit. Why can't I buy an outfit? Build me a collection. So collection.
Yeah, I mean, that's that bestsellers are easy because you can sort of test the waters, but it is also sort of a false positive because they're your best sellers. So it's going to do well anyway. I think collection based is the way to go.
Colin True
00:31:57.594 - 00:31:59.250
It's a better marketing story too.
Andrea Kelly
00:31:59.370 - 00:32:18.110
Oh, for sure. Yes.
And I mean, and that was part of the reason we did that with Columbia too, is we would tie into the marketing dollars for the blah, blah, blah collection that also included plus. So we can actually represent people in plus sized bodies under that budget. It was great.
You can sort of roll it all into one and get, you know, bang for your buck with that.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:32:20.250 - 00:33:23.480
The outdoors is not a niche. It's way bigger than that. The outdoors is essential to our lives, essential to who we are as a species.
And as the world continues to get smaller, as new advances in technology push us to the limits of the planet, the outdoors is more important than ever. Open container is here to explore this new idea of the outdoor.
Strive to uncover stories about creativity, adventure, conservation, politics, and the people who make the outdoor space so vibrant. The world is full of anxiety right now. Climate change, politics, cultural upheaval. But fear not, there are answers in the outdoors.
I'm Doug Schnitzpahn and on this show we will talk to people who are looking to nature to find the solutions we all need.
We will be having honest conversations, conversations about how the outdoors can change us, how it heals us, how we learn from it, and how we can build a better world from what we learn about being outdoors. So please join us, open the container and find out what's inside. Let's get some.
Colin True
00:33:26.580 - 00:33:53.444
Open Container launches January 21st. Find and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
Do we, I mean, okay, you mentioned great, you know, 70% of the available market share are plus size, right? But I mean, I don't know if that's subjective. I don't understand where maybe they're pulling that data from.
Is there any sort of like, is there another figure? Is there a monetary amount that kind of can encapsulate the mark, the market upside of the plus size market?
Andrea Kelly
00:33:53.612 - 00:34:30.480
Well, of course there is, Colin. This is capitalism. There's a number for everything. There's a.
There's a figure out on Statista that says that the 2023 global plus size apparel market was valued at 280, $88 billion and is targeted to hit 500 billion by 2033. That's, that's a, that's a big piece of pie.
So, you know, when Lululemon started making leggings and everybody thought they could sort of have that market cornered and then everybody made leggings. That's a big piece of pie. A couple, even if you do a tiny little collection, there is money for you. There is money for everybody to profit here.
Colin True
00:34:30.600 - 00:34:38.580
Well, I think we can wrap it up there. Any sort of, of final thoughts, something we didn't get to, something you want to make sure that our listeners get a chance to hear you say.
Andrea Kelly
00:34:39.360 - 00:35:28.084
Yeah, I mean, we've talked a lot about the financial side of this and why there's a benefit to it. We have touched on a little bit of it's also the right thing to do. You know, we all deserve access to the outdoors.
You know, Mother Nature doesn't care what size we are, so why should brands? But the other thing that I want to say is, you know, for the brands who are already working on this, fantastic, you are changing lives for people.
You are getting people outside, they get to participate. And for the brands who aren't quite ready yet or aren't really sure that it's necessary, you're actually holding people back.
If we don't have gear that keeps us safe and dry, we can't participate. Unless you want us to do it naked, which we have the naked bike ride in Portland. You want me naked skiing? I suppose we could do that.
Colin True
00:35:28.092 - 00:35:29.000
This is the summer.
Andrea Kelly
00:35:30.140 - 00:35:41.888
Yeah.
Palmer Glacier is a little rough if you eat it, but yeah, I mean, by not participating, it's a barrier to entry, which is the opposite of what the outdoor industry is trying to accomplish. Right.
Colin True
00:35:42.024 - 00:35:52.752
Andrea, thank you so much for coming on. It was great to have you on. We could wrap things up there, definitely come back on again as we get some more wins.
Hopefully soon as things get announced, we want to hear more about them as this progresses.
Andrea Kelly
00:35:52.896 - 00:35:54.620
Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to.
Colin True
00:35:54.920 - 00:35:56.272
All right. Thanks for coming on.
Andrea Kelly
00:35:56.376 - 00:35:57.300
Yeah, thanks.
Colin True
00:35:57.880 - 00:36:16.322
All right, that's the show for today. Send your feedback on this and every episode of the rock fight to myrockfightmail.com the Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight LLC.
Thanks to my guests, Andrea Kelly. I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening. And he's here to take us out. It's Chris D'Makes with the Rock fight, Fight song.
Will see you next time, Rock Fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:36:16.386 - 00:37:16.620
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