When In Doubt, Trust The Story
- colin7931
- 16 minutes ago
- 43 min read
Today Doug opens the container with Mountain Gazette's Mike Rogge.
Doug opens the show by talking about the historical role of storytelling. He points out that storytelling is not merely a form of communication but a fundamental aspect of human evolution and something that allows us to connect with one another and understand our place in the cosmos. Storytelling is also a cornerstone of our outdoor community; something that evokes genuine engagement and reflection among its participants.
Doug is then joined by Mike Rogge, the owner of Mountain Gazette. Doug & Mike reflect on the modern challenges facing storytelling in a digital age, where brevity often overshadows depth. They both advocate for a return to more profound narratives that resonate with readers. Narratives that foster connection and understanding and also make you want to let it rip when you go outside.
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Episode Transcript:
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:04.480 - 00:06:07.190
Welcome to Open Container. I'm Doug Schnitzspahn. I'm a journalist, writer, and overall lover of the outdoors.
I fought wildfires, reported on national politics, published magazines, and I have enjoyed mint tea in the Sahara.
On this podcast, we're going to have an open conversation about culture, conservation, policy, and business issues that matter the most to the outdoor community. Let's get some Storytelling is ingrained in who we are as a species.
Many evolutionary biologists believe that what made humans different from other primates, what made us evolve and behave the way we do and understand the world the way we do, was the campfire. Okay? That and sweat glands and large brains and the ability to run over long distances.
Even before Homo sapiens, our ancestor Homo habilis, was differentiating itself by taming and using fire. From the central location of the campfire, early humans could send out hunters and gatherers and come back and share resources and information.
We began to have specialization to work together as a social team, and we began to tell stories so that we could communicate what we learned and how we could work together. And we began to think even deeper, trying to understand who and what we are and what our place is within this world.
Some of our first stories came as we looked up into the night sky, saw patterns, constellations, and used them like a book to tell stories of gods and heroes and love and disaster. As I compose this intro, a massive black raven is sitting on a branch looking at me. I feel as if it has something to tell me.
I think we always want to find these clues in the natural world. I wonder what it wants to say, what message it could bring.
Many cultures see the raven as a symbol connecting us between this life and and something beyond.
As a child, I was fascinated with stories of Nordic mythology and the God Odin, who, from his throne in Asgard would send out his two ravens, Huginn and Munin, thought and will to bring him back stories of the earth. Even today, I think I have something to tell this raven. Of course, the original storytelling was outdoor storytelling.
We recounted the adventures we had while away from the campfire, sagas of our heroism, our fears, our wants and needs, our passions. A moment when we encountered a raven or some other creature and could feel something from the beyond.
In his book the Origins of Creativity, one of my personal Heroes, the biologist E.O.
wilson, said to express this increasingly complex subject as succinctly as possible, the ancestors of our species developed the brain power to connect with other minds and to conceive unlimited time, distance and potential outcomes. This infinite reach of imagination put quite simply, is what made us great.
This is why I think that storytelling and writing long form journalism are so important. Even more so in a world where the phrases and fragments of an increasingly deconstructed language pop and crackle across our screens.
Storytelling still matters. It fills in that primal need as well as that evolved human need to imagine and contemplate.
That's why I'm so dismayed to see so many publications move away from real storytelling in pursuit of cliques and false affinity. I'm guilty of scrolling on my phone just as much as anyone else, but I never see it as a replacement for deeper understanding and deeper meaning.
Those interactions we have with reels, tiktoks and shorts on our phone have inherently low engagement. We simply tap our thumb on them and move on. Good stories stay with us. They make us want to change our lives. They make us better.
They make us want to understand who we are. I've talked before about how many stories have changed my life.
About Paul Gagnet writing about Baffin Island, John Waterman circumnavigating and climbing, Denali, Hampton Sides, Paul Thoreau, Sarah Corbett, Mark Jenkins, and other authors who wrote in the old Outside magazine. We still need this. We need the writers of today to have a space to tell their stories. Don't be fooled.
Good storytelling is alive and well and being embraced by readers. There are publications that are doing just this Adventure Journal, Trails Magazine and Mountain Gazette.
I'm currently working as the Managing Editor and as a contributor for Mountain Gazette. That's why I'm so happy to talk with my friend and collaborator, Mike Roge. Mike Roge is an award winning and losing writer and director.
He is the owner and editor of Mountain Gazette, a biannual large format mountain culture magazine founded in 1966. Considered a thought leader in the outdoor and independent publishing spaces, Rogge is working on his debut book, when in Doubt, Go Higher.
He lives and skis in North Lake Tahoe, California with his family and two dogs. Now let's open the container with Mike Roge. Well, I am so excited to have my longtime friend and current collaborator.
You could even say boss in a way. Mike Roge here, the owner, editor, visionary behind Mountain Gazette. Mike, how you doing today?
Mike Rogge
00:06:07.570 - 00:06:09.818
I'm doing well buddy. Thanks for having me.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:06:09.954 - 00:06:29.910
Yeah, and I think we've got a lot we can get into. You know, some so that everyone knows. I am also the Managing editor currently of Mountain Gazette. So Mike and I work together on the magazine.
I think we should just let people know that before we get deeper into praising the magazine and what you do. And I think my.
Mike Rogge
00:06:30.690 - 00:06:40.502
You're our new managing editor. You just worked on your 203 as your first issue. But also, you were an editor at Mountain Gazette under the previous ownership as well.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:06:40.606 - 00:07:07.450
That is true. I was, Yeah. I helped keep it. I helped keep Mountain Gazette sort of on life support when it had gone out of print, was only an online magazine.
I got a lot of contributors to keep writing online for it, which was a nice thing to do until it got into the hands of Mike Roge, who turned it into the beautiful magazine it is today. So my first question for you, though, Mike, is when was the first time that you encountered Mountain Gazette?
Mike Rogge
00:07:08.960 - 00:08:44.200
So, as you know, I'm from the Northeast, so I did not grow up in the Boulder, Colorado, mountain scene really at all. I was working at Powder, and Matt Hanson had asked me to interview our good mutual friend and senior writer for Mountain Gazette, Peter Cray.
And Matt had given me some background. And I remember Matt saying to me in the San Clemente offices of Powder, like, hey, if you can ask Pete about Mountain Gazette.
And I was like, what's that? And he's like, you know, man, very few magazines have soul. And it was the first thing I'd ever heard about the Gazette.
He goes, that was a magazine that had soul. And that was it. And so I asked him unknowingly about this magazine that had lived once upon a time called Mountain Gazette.
And Peter can talk about pretty much anything passionately and poetically, but with the Gazette, I could sense, like, something in his heart. And from there, I just. I found that a lot of my favorite writers and photographers and artists had contributed to it over the years.
But it was always like, you know how it is, like, writers, like, we all talk to, we're having a beer, and someone's like, oh, back when I was at the Gazette, or back when I did this piece for the Gazette or whatever, and it was always the Gazette, the Gazette, the Gazette.
And it was kind of this, like, really cool, exclusive club that had shut down that I was never going to get to be a part of, but it would be like if Saturday Night Live ended, you know, 12 years ago and you heard like, oh, well, the best comedians were on snl. And you're like, well, I'll never get to be on that. So that was really it for me.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:08:44.660 - 00:08:50.280
And then Mountain Gazette is going to celebrate its 60th year. This year or next year? This year, right.
Mike Rogge
00:08:50.580 - 00:09:54.190
Next year. So the magazine was founded in 1966 at Skiers Gazette and it changed the name in 1972 for, I think, a pretty obvious reason of.
Just like, they felt like the content in the magazine, the writing, the photography and the art, the poetry was just. It was taking on a life of its own beyond just downhill skiing and ski racing. So they changed the name to Mountain Gazette.
But I've got a few copies of Skiers Gazette. You know, Dick Dorworth wrote for that. George Sibley wrote for that. George still writes for us.
I just emailed him yesterday about doing something for the fall. But, yeah, I mean, it's kind of amazing to think that we've shepherded it to this really cool place.
This next issue, 203, will be our 10th issue under our ownership. And it feels cool to bring it this far.
You know, I don't know how far I'll be able to take it, but my hope is to set it up in a place where after I'm long and gone, like, someone else can grab the. Grab the reins and keep it. Keep it going.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:09:54.570 - 00:10:10.910
Yeah. And, I mean, in the early days, too, there were really, you know, those early editions of Mountain Gazette. I mean, Edward.
Edward Abbey was a contributor. Right. There were a lot of kind of famous writers and radicals of the time were in the Gazette at that time. And then what happened to it from there?
Mike Rogge
00:10:12.250 - 00:11:11.516
So it shut down the first time in 79.
I think that magazine business has always been a tough business, especially when you're not trying to be a mainstream title, when you're like, let's not do the largest common denominator, top 10 mountain towns, best mountain towns to live in, whatever, all that bullshit.
And so it was brought back in the late 90s and came back officially in 2000 under the stewardship of John Fahey, who I think sort of found out about the magazine the same way I did of, like, as John was coming of age as a writer, like, he had heard stories about how great it was, you know, and the lore of it. You know, one of my favorite facts that I own recently is George Stranahan used to own the magazine.
He, of course, starred the Woody Creek Tavern, was a really close friend of Hunter S. Thompson. And that's the Fahey era. And it lasted until, what, 2012, right? When it officially.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:11:11.648 - 00:11:12.052
Yeah.
Mike Rogge
00:11:12.116 - 00:12:19.930
Shut down. And then. Yeah, in 2009. Yeah, 2019, in the fall. You and Peter Cray told me when I was up in Alaska that the magazine might be for sale.
I was actually in Dutch harbor filming with a company called Grundin's. They make the orange bibs on the show Deadliest Catch. And, you know, my magazine days had been over for quite some time, but I was really missing it.
And I had kind of developed on my own this business plan of, like, this is how a magazine could work. And it doesn't necessarily have to be big or. And by big, I mean, like, financially big or anything like that.
Just needs to find its audience and speak to its audience authentically and truly and consistently and whatever consistent means. If that's 12 times a year, it's 12 times a year for us. It's twice a year.
But, yeah, I bought this $48 an hour Internet so that I could call you from a bar called the Norwegian Rat, where, true story. A man had just admitted to me that he'd just gotten out of prison after 10 years for killing a guy with a brick.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:12:21.630 - 00:12:23.810
Sounds like a Mountain Gazette story.
Mike Rogge
00:12:24.110 - 00:13:03.900
It is a little bit. And so in the back of the Norwegian Rat, I went out and I talked to you, and Peter Cray had told me that it might be for sale.
And obviously, our mutual, now mutual friend Blake owned it, and it was sitting in a storage unit. And I think he mostly wanted to get that storage unit debt paid off and wanted, and rightfully so. You know, I don't give Blake enough credit.
I think when you own something like this, there's, like, an obvious way to just shut it down and forget about it and, like, whatever. Blake wanted to see Mountain Gazette come back.
And, you know, the only reason I was able to do any of this is because Blake was kind enough to part ways with it and sell it. So here we are today.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:13:04.020 - 00:14:00.200
Yeah, he originally took it because he loved it so much, and he definitely didn't want to be the guy to close it down. So I know he was excited to have you on it.
And when Blake did own it, I was thinking about what Mountain Gazette should look like and how it should change. And one of the first things I thought was, like, we should get guys like Mike Roge writing for Mountain Gazette and taking over Mountain Gazette.
So it was this amazing, organic, you know, flow that happened. I think one of the. I mean, one of the genius things you've really brought to the magazine is you've opened it up. You know, a lot of people.
The mistake people make, I think, is. Is making it an inside club, right?
Some magazine, like, we've got this info or this secret that you need to have, but what you've always done that's great with the magazine is told people that it's their magazine, and you've really Grown the community.
As much as you've grown the magazine in amazing ways, you've grown that community of people who feel a part of the magazine, who feel a part of being readers. Right?
Mike Rogge
00:14:01.060 - 00:16:59.280
Yeah, I think, you know, I've always lived in mountain towns, except for three years, coincidentally enough, when I worked at Powder. I lived in Orange County. I lived in a beach town. And, you know, I was in between houses up here in Tahoe. I had a place lined up.
It was later in the summer. And my now wife, she was my then girlfriend, I was going to go live in my back of my car in Groveland outside Yosemite for like three months.
And I had this whole plan. And she and I had been dating for like five or six months.
And she was like, well, you can do that, but, like, what if you also crash with me in San Francisco? And so I ended up going down to Mammoth, sleeping in my car for like 10, 12 days, and then drove to San Francisco.
And it was the first time I'd ever lived in a city in my entire life. And what I realized was that, man, I was riding bikes on Mount Tam. I was surfing, I was spending a lot of time outside. I was still hiking.
I was taking her dog Kiki out for hikes. And I felt very connected to an outdoor community in San Francisco.
Now, come to find out, living in Tahoe, we all assume they're city folks, they're kooks, whatever. I was very wrong about that when I brought the Gazette back.
What I realized is part of the reason why there's always this disconnect between mountain towns and major cities.
Obviously you see it right with Boulder and Denver and being so close to the mountains is that we don't really understand one another, but we actually have a shared passion for being outside and taking care of places. But also, outdoor people that live in San Francisco don't just recreate outside when they're in Tahoe. They do it all the time in their own way.
And I thought, rather than me trying to understand that and write about it from my perspective, I would let writers in Manhattan do galleries about wildlife photography. So shooting pigeons in Central park or the idea of a hot summer.
My favorite juxtaposition we've ever done is one spring we did a West coast cliff diving, alpine lake cliff diving piece. And then that same issue, we did a Upper Harlem, a fire hydrant being opened, like classic, like 50s New York scene.
And I was like, yeah, this is how people cool off in the summertime. And like, to me, they're just as valid. They're core memories that people have of, like, being outside, being connected to water and nature.
And to me, that's really been something that I've. It feels like I'm getting my PhD in outdoor education right now from our contributors. You know, Like, I don't. I think, you know really well.
Like, I don't sit down and, like, be like, I want everyone to do this. This is the. The game plan. Like, I'm not Bill Belichick, dude. Like, I'm just like, okay, we know what we.
Where we're headed, what we're supposed to do here. And I let our contributors really drive the bus, and that's where we end up. And that kind of makes for some really exciting issues.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:16:59.660 - 00:17:29.760
Yeah, I love this idea, too, that outdoors doesn't have to be confined to just, you know, you move to this mountain town, you're near a national park or whatever. I mean, I think that that goes against the whole idea of what we need to protect, right?
When, you know, you can be in Boston and, you know, there's the Emerald Necklace, there's parks that were designed, you know, the best cities have been designed for the outdoors to be part of them as well. And I think there are these communities of people everywhere who, as you say, enjoy the outdoors. Right. Like, it's bad to limit it.
Mike Rogge
00:17:30.140 - 00:19:49.970
Yeah, I agree. And I think if we, like, you know, our national parks are under attack right now.
And I think that if we focus just on protecting our national parks meeting exclusively, our national parks, you're not going to have a lot of people in the world that appreciate them, because not many people are fortunate like I am to live super close to Yosemite or Sequoia national park or Lassen or any of the other parks that are near Tahoe. We need to protect all safe spaces. And I think that includes music.
And I think that's part of the fun I've had is I was just in Las Vegas over the weekend at the Sphere and ran into a couple Mountain Gazette contributors while I was there. And we write about music, and I think we should write about music, because I can't imagine a mountain town without music.
Whether it be an open mic night, whether it be just like lifties, bumping Grateful Dead tracks or dubstep or concerts or whatever. I think music's a real part of it.
I think art's a real part of it, too, because you feel this, like, big feelings outside when you accomplish something, when you fail at something, when you go there for release. And some of us express that with writing. Some of us express that with paint or sculpting or your wife who's a new contributor, like poetry.
And I think that's what we want these big pages to be, is a canvas for people. You're having these big feelings outside. And I think we can be an outlet for that.
And what I love is that's how we will never get bored making this magazine, is because people's experiences outside are going to always be the same and always be different. You know, I think of my favorite book, you know, River Runs Through It.
Norm was writing about a troubled relationship with his brother and his father. And I could argue that your piece in 203 takes like a similar, you know, turn to that. And. And it's not.
It's not a direct comparison, but, like, ultimately, like, it's like, yeah, these things can bring us together. They can tear us apart. They can do a lot for us.
And I think that's what I want to do with Mountain Gazette is explore people's connection to each other and the outside space. It's really fun.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:19:51.390 - 00:19:57.142
Well, and it's been five years now, right, since you've run the Mac 10 and 10 issues you put out so far, right? This will be the 10.
Mike Rogge
00:19:57.166 - 00:19:57.798
This is issue 10.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:19:57.854 - 00:20:07.746
Yes, issue 10. So in that time, you know, what have you learned? What mistakes have you made? You know, what.
What are the paths that have been the correct paths you've gone down?
Mike Rogge
00:20:07.898 - 00:20:19.394
I think the size of the magazine and the design of the magazine, thanks to John, our art director, is the best thing that we've. We were right about that from the beginning.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:20:19.522 - 00:20:25.218
And for people who don't know, it's super sized, right? The magazines. It's more like an art piece than a magazine, really.
Mike Rogge
00:20:25.274 - 00:23:35.258
Yeah, it's 11x17.
You know, we're proud of it, obviously, but, like, I always feel there's this disconnect between, like, the people that make magazines and are very proud of their work and the people who receive magazines. And it's like the form of it doesn't match the pride that people take in it. Our readers can be very proud for a couple things.
One word of mouth is how people really find out about it. We do run some advertising, but ultimately the people that stay with us are people that a friend told them.
And I don't know, I kind of like hearing the stories of our readers having on their coffee table and having a dinner party or friends over for a beer or something, and their friends are like, what the hell is this? And, you know, they Find it on the. You know, what we've learned.
I would say we needed our communication with our readers and what we were doing to match the quality of the magazine. And we've done that by, like, for three years now. Our biggest investments have been in customer service.
And it's something as simple as we have a new fulfillment system now where we just got to run a quality control check through the post office, which we have not done for nine issues. We just learned about this for issue 10, where it'll kick back like, hey, this name and this address.
No one's received mail to this address under that name in four months. Now we have their email address.
So now, rather than send something to a mailbox that no one really cares about, whatever, we can proactively reach out to that customer and say, hey, could you verify your address? Like, where did you move? Or whatever? And that feels like a good step in the right direction.
And the other thing that obviously I didn't know is that Outdoor Media was going to go through this massive transformation. I thought this was going to be a thousand to two thousand person, ultimately book club that I was going to just like. And I was just.
It was going to be like, love.
I used to tell my wife that there are going to be love letters for me to friends and family and colleagues and stuff of, like, just things that we're all doing in the outdoors. I really thought it was going to be like this, like, book club.
And, you know, we're sitting at 33,000 subscribers today, and it makes us the or one of the largest independent magazines in North America, if not the world. And we still treat every issue like we did 194. You know, like, we care. You know, we care.
We keep looking at the magazine, we keep editing the magazine. We keep just, like, all until the very last minute. We just want to make sure that, you know, every I is died, every T is crossed.
Like, are we being consistent? Did we do this in the last issue? We should do it again? Are we doing the right thing?
You know, like, and we just want people to feel real value in what they're getting because we don't take it lightly. We take it very seriously. And I think that the people who receive it should feel like it's coming from not just our hearts, but our guts.
We're using our whole life experience to put this thing together. And I think that's something that I've learned is, like, there's not.
I'm glad I only do two because I think my therapy bills would be through the group if I did more.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:23:35.394 - 00:23:59.650
Well, I think something too that I've noticed from writing for Mountain Gazette too is 33,000 people and all those people fucking read it. And they read it and they love it and they take it to heart. You know, I've gotten personal emails.
Like I got an email from a guy from Germany who read one of my stories once who, you know, I've had people seek me out who've read things I've written for Mountain Gazette. So it's people who are all engaged with the magazine too.
Mike Rogge
00:24:00.190 - 00:25:38.860
Yeah, and I think it's a real term of engagement too. Like, it's not, you know, we pretty notoriously, we don't publish any of the stories in the magazine on the Internet.
And so there's not an opportunity for someone to read a story and give it a, you know, a thumbs up on Facebook. Like, instead, they have to go find you, Doug. They have to find your email and they have to send some. Which means that it. They.
They're determined to talk to you about something.
We've had a writer write about a pollution story in Montana that resulted in several million dollars being committed to cleaning up a river, you know, and a company changing its policy. And I think that's the thing is, like, had it just been on social media, what would have happened? Maybe it went viral, Right?
Okay, it goes viral, which means just like a lot of people reshared it. You know, I think of it like swirling up a goldfish tank. Like, that's what going viral is. It doesn't really mean anything.
We want to get beyond the fishbowl. You know, we like to affect people in real life. And I mean, you know, it was really cool to have this weekend.
Like Stanley Mouse, who designed the Grateful Dead's Europe 72 artwork, he met my son and I and Jay Blakesburg telling me that people that are going to see Dead and Company at the Sphere are saying like, oh, I saw your work in Mountain Gazette. What do you mean? He designed the Europe 72 cover. You saw his work there. But just to make that connection is very, very cool.
And yeah, like I said, we just want to be an outlet for people that want to make great stuff.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:25:39.020 - 00:25:58.120
I think it's really important too. As you said, you can have something online that gets all these thumbs up or clicks or likes, but the engagement for that stuff is so small.
90% of the people who click a like on a story are they even reading it. Whereas the stuff that they can only have in their hands, they seem to engage With a lot more.
Mike Rogge
00:25:58.810 - 00:26:49.786
I really do think that writing for the Internet is like, fishing for good stuff at a dump.
Like, it used to not be that way, but, like, you know, you bring your trash to the dump and, like, maybe you see an old Schwinn bike there, and you're like, okay, well, it's kind of like, should I click on this art? Okay, what's the reputation of this title? Like, you know, blah, blah, blah.
And you're, like, literally trying to find a diamond in, like, a dumpster fire, you know? And with us, there's something. I truly believe there's something for everybody in every issue. It might not all be there.
We are not Chicken Soup for the Mountain Soul. There's some hard shit in there. There's some sad stuff in there. There's some thoughtful things in there. There's some.
I find it quite an honor to be able to curate some people's life's work.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:26:49.908 - 00:26:50.206
Yeah.
Mike Rogge
00:26:50.238 - 00:28:27.392
The things that maybe they will be remembered for forever. And they're like, yeah, I'll give you 12 pages, Mike, and like, let's do this together. And it's very. As you know, it's very collaborative.
We work with writers. I really try not to over edit.
I really, really believe in getting the writer's voice in there and keeping the writer's voice there, almost pushing them further to get their voice in there more. There's no. I would say there's no style for Mountain Gazette to, like, sound like a Mountain Gazette article other than, like, to be yourself.
And, you know, Ari Schneider says I'm pretty famous, like, a. A proactive editor, meaning I'm editing the piece before it's even started. I'm like, how are you feeling about this? Like, you got your flight book.
Like, where? Where are you?
And, like, I find that if you do that, it's something I learned in the commercial fishing world is like, you know, if you're prepared, if you're talking to people about stuff, you're giving them comments. I think of Amanda Monty and her fire piece of, like, you're the right person. You're the only person who can write this piece.
That's why we assigned it to you. This is not a tryout. You're already on the All Star team, dude. You're good. It's like, just keep going. Find your voice. What do you want to say?
One advice I give to some writers is, if you were in a bar with your best friend and they didn't believe you, what would you say to them other than you're an idiot, you know, like, you're an idiot. And also it's like. And like getting people animated in that.
And like, I do find people bring out their best work when they're passionate and they, they really want to say something. They want their song to be heard. I think that's. I admire that.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:28:27.576 - 00:29:03.210
Well, it's important to. I think, as you said, going back to A River Runs Through It, a book that affected both of us, right?
And there's this idea right now that we don't need writers or writing, that AI can do it, that people only want this disposable online content. But you're giving people a place and other publications that are out there too, people want this. There's a need for writing that.
I think Gordon Lish, the Captain Fiction, used to say, a good short story, he's got to grab you by the collar and say, you have to read this to know how to live your life. People still have a need for that.
Mike Rogge
00:29:03.330 - 00:31:00.304
I read this, a social media post recently where someone's like, AI is supposed to cure cancer and ALS and fucking fix all this stuff, and instead we're making action figure packages. And it's like, oh, look, it's me.
I find all this to be in a way, like, pretty perfect of like what AI is and what it isn't is because you asked a computer to turn you into a action figure. Like, I think that makes you a prompter. I don't think it makes you an artist, but that's, you know, just like there's a nuances in everything.
I mean, I've gone to MoMA in New York and seen one of the most incredible AI pieces that's constantly changing based on weather and traffic in New York City. And it's unbelievable. And then like, someone had to think to create it that way.
But much like that action figure trend, that which while you're, you know, while people are listening to this, like, that trend's over. It came and went just as fast as you were able to prompt it. It means nothing.
And yet the Mona Lisa is the most highly guarded piece of art ever, was painted by a very imperfect person. I mean, if we're going into it, I mean, the King James version of the Bible is the best selling book of all time. It was not written by a computer.
It may have been written by Shakespeare, we're not totally sure, but, but, but you know what I mean? I guess, like, I think the good stuff, you know, Bob Dylan's, you can make an AI Bob Dylan sound like Bob Dylan, blah, Blah, blah.
But AI is not going to come up with Masters of War, which applies at any time since he wrote it. I think if you want to play around with AI, it's great. I think it's really good. I use it in my life. It's really good.
If you take a photo of your refrigerator and say, what can I make? It's okay. It can kind of give you some advice about what you could actually make with the food that's in your refrigerator.
But, like, I just, I believe in people. I really do.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:31:00.392 - 00:31:18.960
Yeah, right.
Like, there's this add on right now for AI where this girl's having a dinner party and she's asking AI, you know, what question should they ask about Moby Dick?
And AI gives her an answer and it's like, man, you're missing the whole point of reading the book because the book should be encouraging you to ask questions, not to just sound smart.
Mike Rogge
00:31:19.040 - 00:32:24.550
Right? Well, I mean, I think ever since the advent of the Internet, that's what it's been used for is how can I sound smart in a cocktail party?
We've joked sometimes that we should do on our bookmark, like 10 items in Mountain Gazette that will make you sound smart at a cocktail party. It's just on our bookmark.
But no, I mean, I like that when you read a story of ours, you can't just repost it and say, this is fucked up or this is great or whatever. You can, you can read it and put it in the personal context of your life and talk to people about it.
And I don't know, I think it's as valid as going to a concert or meeting up with friends to do yoga or a morning ski or whatever. I find chairlift conversations to be the best ones I have all year.
I think we're still going to like real life the whole way through with climate change, with political change, with all of it. You know, the only reason we know that this time, right now is bad is because we lived through good times.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:32:24.850 - 00:32:30.150
You know, I love that Mountain Gazette's a way for you to stay human, right?
Mike Rogge
00:32:30.850 - 00:32:37.626
I think it is. I mean, it can still give you a paper cut. It can fuck you up physically.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:32:37.738 - 00:32:39.226
It's heavy. It's heavy.
Mike Rogge
00:32:39.338 - 00:32:40.150
It is.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:32:41.490 - 00:33:07.570
I don't want to get bogged down too much and outside and all the drama going on there.
But I know that recently one of the people still left there said that, you know, oh, well, people don't read anymore, like, and I was really bothered he said that, you know, my kids, they don't read anymore. They're not.
They're just going to interact with social media, which seems to be such a disservice to young people and the idea of how much we need writing and reading and how much we need to encourage that. Right.
Mike Rogge
00:33:09.070 - 00:36:50.608
So respectfully, my kindergartner is reading at a first grade and a half level right now, according to his teachers. And we just went and saw a concert and he likes to ski and he certainly likes video games.
And you know, I'd say he's what I would call an average outdoor kid. I think that's more of a parenting problem than a reading problem. I'm not anti really anything. Like I think everything has its use.
I think I've always thought of a media diet being like an actual diet. We're like, dude, if you're on a road trip and you're hungover, like a McDonald's can be a really welcome site.
But if you eat McDonald's every day, which is what I think a lot of outdoor online content is specifically, we've all seen super size, but we know what happens. You know, like you have to have balance in your life. And I think as far as what's going on over there, like they have a vision, it's not mine.
A lot of media companies have different visions than mine. What I will say is that we, from a business standpoint are debt free.
We pay our bills, we take care of our contributors, we pay health insurance, 100% of our health insurance for full time employees. We donate to a lot of causes. No one has 100% satisfaction. We have people that cancel, whatever.
But we've had a lot of people, actually like 1900 people have canceled their subscription this year. And I sent an email two weeks ago out to them and there was no come back for 50% off and a free hat, blah blah, blah.
I wrote because I was reading why people are canceling. It was economic anxiety. You know, I wrote I've lived on couches, I have gone to discount grocery stores and bought as much ramen as I could.
Like I have wondered how I was going to make it. I've made lists on my phone called free things to do so I don't spend money.
Like I know what it's like to be there and I want you to know that you're going to see yourself through. And I just wrote to these readers, like, we're able to do what we've done because you took a chance on us. And if you are motivated by money.
My wife and I talk about this A lot, because we live in Northern California. There's a lot of tech around here. A lot of people can cash out with hundreds of millions of dollars.
And I think that's really cool if that's what you're motivated by.
Megan and I, thanks to our friend and contributor Chloe Weir, got to do this cool experience on Saturday where we got to lay on the floor of the Sphere with pillows. That's something they do in their VIP section. And you can't buy it, right? Like, we got to go there because Chloe works with us at the magazine.
She offered it to us, we accepted, and we looked at each other like, set for life. I think some people think about being set for life and it's like a financial situation.
I got to ski with Darren Ralphs before I came on this podcast because we ran into each other and all that hard time, financial times, whatever. I was not dreaming of laying on the floor of the Sphere listening to the Grateful Dead or skiing with that last American Hanukkah champion.
But that's what Set for Life means for me. And I think when it comes to outdoor media specifically, or any media, ask yourself, what are these people motivated by?
I've told you on this podcast what we're motivated by. We want to make great shit, full stop. And we never mail it in, we mail it out. That's it. You know, it's easy. And that's what I'm motivated by.
And I feel like as long as I'm motivated purely by that, Mountain Gazette will be just fine. And my wife and I can keep saying we're set for life because, like, it's not about the financial security.
It's about being able to get on your bike and ride to your friend's house.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:36:50.644 - 00:36:50.936
House.
Mike Rogge
00:36:51.008 - 00:37:49.050
It's about grabbing a beer with a contributor. You know, I get to meet Ari Schneider's parents at the Sphere. Like, you know, like, that. That means more to me, and that's what I'm motivated by.
And I would question what the other media. It's funny that the media companies that are motivated by money seem to having a lot of problems. But all my independent magazine friends are happy.
They're having kids, they're hiring people, and they're never going to sell for a billion dollars. But who the fuck wants to sell for a billion? I mean, we can all say, that would be nice, but, like, and then do what?
We all have a calling in life, and you and I share this. Like, our calling is to be editors.
You know, we certainly like to be writers, but our calling is to be editors and help shepherd our friends work to a place where maybe it can affect someone else's life. And that's, like I said, that's my motivation. And that's why, frankly, I don't think Mountain Gazette has too many problems right now.
And other people do.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:37:49.910 - 00:38:24.810
I love that.
I think one thing you brought up there, too, that I wanted to talk to you about is, you know, you and I both live in mountain towns that have sort of already been ruined a long time ago, right? Tahoe and Boulder, it's like they've been found out a long, long time ago.
So it's not like anyone's coming to them and shock that a lot of people are moving here or something. What? You know, and yet we still love living there. You can still, as you said, bike out the door. You can ski.
They're still drawing people who are outdoor athletes, right? Like, so what is. What is a moun? Like, where's the soul of a mountain town? What. What makes it a nucleus?
Mike Rogge
00:38:24.890 - 00:41:20.508
People. People. A mountain town is nothing that has people. And it can't just be wealthy people and it can't just be poor people.
We all think that we want to live in this, like, Ski Bum Haven, right? Well, the problem with Ski Bum Haven is they don't generate enough revenue to fix the lifts. You know, there's no public transportation.
You know, there's no decent produce coming to the grocery store. You know, so it's a. It's a constant balance. There's an incorporation effort right now in my community to make the town in North Lake Tahoe.
And we all talk about, it's not so much about what we don't want to be. It's about having the self determination to decide what we want to be.
And I think, you know, one thing I've evolved on is I thought Airbnb was brilliant because it was cheaper than hotels when I was broke. Oh, this is great. Now that I live in a mountain town, oh, it's terrible, right? Like, oh, it's ruining everything.
None of my friends can find a place to live. Now that we're trying to incorporate this town, we're learning.
Like, you know, Airbnb measured brings in a lot of tax dollars that we can use to improve parks, cleanup parks. You know, one of our ad partners in our email newsletter is the North Tahoe Visitors association.
And they're not running ads to bring people to Tahoe. They're speaking to people who already come to Tahoe and teaching them how to recreate more responsibly better.
You know, like, it's not sexy, but, like, our community has improved. Trash cleanup.
We're doing trash cleanup sometimes a couple times a day in July so that we have clean trash and recycling receptacles so that they're not overflowed, so people don't litter. I think it's very easy to think of mountain towns and black and white thinking, but I find that if you start viewing it through a lot of colors.
One thing that's bothering me, my wife volunteers locally, and, you know, it blows my mind. There's kids in North Lake Tahoe, this extremely affluent community where Mark Zuckerberg and Sergey Brin and all these rich tech titans live.
And there's kids that go hungry in North Lake Tahoe. And that is so frustrating. And Megan and I are working right now to figure out, how can Mountain Gazette get involved?
We helped, you know, buy 12,000 meals for kids that were going hungry in our community. Like, I think the problems, some of them are blown out of proportion. There's always been traffic in Tahoe, always.
You know, powder days are always busy. It's good skiing. That was never a secret. We all like to think it was this, like, secret little, like, you know, tao of a powskier type thing.
Pow Skiing has always been sweet. And I always say, Dick Barrymore made last of the ski bums in the 60s.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:41:20.607 - 00:41:21.050
60S.
Mike Rogge
00:41:21.950 - 00:41:24.358
So everyone's always felt this way, right?
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:41:24.414 - 00:41:27.330
Exactly. It's always been ruined. Yeah. When you got here.
Mike Rogge
00:41:27.710 - 00:42:35.890
Yeah. Artists. There's nobody new. People are great. I think the worst people in mountain towns are the people that have lived there for two to five years.
They've lived there just long enough to have a strong opinion about something they know kind of a little about. But I can tell you that my friends that have lived In Tahoe for 40, 50, 60 years, they ride their bikes a lot. They ski a lot.
They don't hang out at the bar that much, but they have wine with their friends on back porches. They travel to Europe a lot. They get out of town when it's busy.
They know the ebbs and flows, and it is kind of like being in the ocean of, like, you got to find the right wave and catch it. And so I think that mountain towns are okay. And I think one of you know, we're printing in Wisconsin now, and I've never spent any time there.
When I was driving up to our new printer, I was like, this is beautiful. You're on this huge great lake. There's access to the outdoors.
It's obviously super cold in the winter, but I'm starting to see places for why they're good and not why they're shitty. And that optimistic view has been serving me pretty well.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:42:37.070 - 00:43:03.442
Yeah, I mean, I loved.
There's a story in this most recent issue of Mountain Gazette going to Cape Cod and kind of tracing the path that Thoreau walked there, you know, what, almost 200 years ago and looking at it now with private land and it's not what people would normally think of as a mountain town story, yet it's the same thing when it comes down to it, right? Just in a different spot.
Mike Rogge
00:43:03.586 - 00:44:56.022
We do have a lot of affluent subscribers.
And if you're listening to this, what I would encourage you to do is when you're buying your mountain townhouse, ask the owner or the neighbor or someone, hey, do people recreate through here? And if the answer is yes, understand that that's part of it. That's part of owning the spies.
You get to be a steward of this little easement and let people go and oh, like getting sued, blah, blah. Dude, most people are pretty good.
And also most people that are accessing a trail or river or something through property are not going to get hurt in a small corner. And if you're that worried, go talk to lawyer and put up a little sign that says like trespassing at your own risk, blah, blah, blah, blah.
I do think we have this problem where people don't trust other people right now.
And I think if you move to a mountain town, it's something you should try to do is try to connect with your neighbors a little more and try to meet them on their level or bring them up to your level or bring them down to your level, whatever, Rover or whatever. But yeah, Miles Howard, he's in Boston. He created the Walking City Trail.
He has taught me so much about outdoor recreation where he has not only created a trail, but he's created a community in Boston for people that love to go to Vermont and upstate New York and the Catskills or Connecticut or wherever. Cape Cod, he's like, no, you're here in Boston. We can do this right here. We'll be fine. We can go out, we can do this.
And yeah, it's right in your own backyard. I've walked the trail with them and it's sweet. It's a well curated trail. It's so good. People are obviously doing personal best times on it.
Now on Strava, so make of that what you will. People try to do best time on the walking city trail, but yeah, I don't know.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:44:56.126 - 00:45:16.280
Well, one thing I know about you for certain is you've got your dad of two young boys and you are dedicated to getting them outdoors and building their own experiences. How essential is that? Not just for you, but for you to show people throughout the community too, what you can do with your kids.
Mike Rogge
00:45:17.260 - 00:48:16.268
Yeah, part of the way, selfishly, Mountain Gazette is set up is so that I can have time. My kids.
I woke up with them this morning and, you know, brought my oldest son to kindergarten this morning and high fived some of the dads that were also going out touring or biking or paddleboarding and whatnot. My big thing is I really do believe that no two people can have the same experience outside. So I treat my kids that way, too.
My older son loves to run. He gets that from his mom, certainly not from me. But he loves running. He was bummed we took him out of school on Friday.
They were running the mile in school and he was so bummed that he couldn't run the mile. And I was like, I remember trying to be sick during the mile. Like, I never wanted to run a mile. It was terrible.
But he loves running and he's into martial arts and he's into. He told me this year that, you know, his favorite things about skiing are hanging out with friends and skiing Pow when there's pow outside.
And I was like, cool, that's fine if that's.
I'm not going to be like, you know, level one super unknown is here and I come from the park skiing background and I'm not gonna be like, oh, come on, let's like, you know, grab true blunt on your tail grab or whatever. Like, you know, like blind switch ups are cooler than front switch ups or on a rail or whatever.
Like, I think the way I like the outdoors is very different from anybody else. And I think that's the key is just raising two kids that understand that just walking out your front door is. Is enough.
You know, getting off your butt, not being in on your Nintendo Switch all the time, you know, like, you know, if they love Nintendo Switch, I'm like, what a great opera activity. You know, like, how cool and like, what a cool thing to do when it's crappy outside. Like, that's so cool that you have that.
It's the same thing with reading. Like, I was always told younger, like, when people are like, I hate to read.
I had teachers that Would say, you just haven't found what you like to read about. And I had another professor in college that was like, thanks so much for not laughing at me when I say I want to be a ski writer.
And I remember he goes, mike, you could write about fucking Legos. Just be good at it, you know. And so it's important for Megan and I to get our kids outside.
You know, we send them to really cool summer camps that are kind of like, do it yourself.
So if you want to shoot a bow and arrow, you can, or throw an ax, or you want to do some art projects or yoga or meditate, you know, it's like, like we're not pushing them. We're just kind of giving them opportunities to learn things.
I might try to get them water skiing this summer, but that's mostly just because I think it'd be funny to see a six year old water ski. But yeah, it's been fun. And it's cool for me to see these places that I love, like Alpine Meadows through my son's eyes. It's cool.
They have such a different appreciation for it than I do. And it's really cool. I get to see it in a new way, which is fun.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:48:16.404 - 00:48:32.140
Have you had some really powerful moments recently?
With all the work you do and everything else, have you had some time to just have some powerful moments outside or moments when you really reconnected with something beyond yourself even?
Mike Rogge
00:48:32.260 - 00:50:49.700
Yeah, I mean, admittedly like this fall and winter. I lost a really close friend of mine to drugs and alcohol last year.
And it was really hard for me to kind of understand and ask myself, could I have done anything, you know, better? And you know, I'm a pretty introspective dude. I'm trying to ask myself, like, are you being a good person today? Are you doing almost to a fault?
And it was probably in between Christmas and New Year's. Megan and the boys were doing something. It was like rain snowing out, you know what I mean? Like at the lake level.
So they were like, we're going to the bowling alley. Like, we're not going to go outside. It's kind of crappy. And I was like, can I go skiing? And I know it sounds like crazy, but I am from the northeast.
And like, I kind of like, you know, Chris Rudolph, rest in peace, famously used to say, crapp a diem and seize the crap, if you will. And I thought, I'll go out. And I was listening to music, I was skiing by myself and I found this, like, really nice groove, this right Nice turn.
And I kind of just realized, like, I felt one with the world, and not to get, like, too spiritual with it, but, like, actually, I will. Like, I'm going to be 40 this year. And I've asked myself sort of, like, what has led me to all these different moments?
And I think everything in your childhood, whether it's good or bad or traumatic, and, like, all your experiences, like, it's led you to right now, and we could kind of be slaves to, like, later, the future, the past, or right now. You can be too much in the present and not think about what's coming next.
But I kind of felt like I was perfectly balanced on this seesaw where I was, and I was happy with, like, what I had going on that day. And it just. It felt really nice. And I'm finding I'm falling, and it's really special.
I'm falling in love with skiing more than I ever have in my life. And it's bringing a lot to me. And I'm actually finally okay with, like, the seasons ending.
I used to hate it, and I almost have, like, seasonal blues in the springtime, but I'm like. I get it.
Like, it's all kind of winding down, and other things are popping up, and I'm feeling really comfortable with where I am in the world right now. And so that, like, the outdoors give me that. That's, like, my place to question where I am and reaffirm where I am. So thank you. Skiing.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:50:50.280 - 00:51:02.816
That's great. Makes me want to get out and ski. Well, we still have something left, right? I mean, it is one of the beauties.
It is one of the beauties of skiing is it's ephemeral. Right. It doesn't last, and it comes back new every. Every year. Hopefully, it will.
Mike Rogge
00:51:02.888 - 00:52:02.304
Like, Jeremy Jones lives here, and he's one of our contributors. Something he and I talk about is, like, we both believe these cultures are powerful enough that they're never going to end.
They'll adapt, they'll survive.
And to me, that speaks to the powerfulness of the cultures of skiing and snowboarding, of, like, that we should try to protect what we have, obviously, and also know that everything's going to be okay. Like, long term, it's all going to be all right. It's all going to check out at the end, the balance sheet.
I know things seem really messy right now, and they are. But, you know, life is about swings and ups and downs. And let's say right now we're swinging one way and we're down.
Well, that Means we're going to swing the other way just as hard and come up. And that's going to be nice, too.
And we'll be able to appreciate that moment because we've been this low before, you know, so we're going to be all right.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:52:02.472 - 00:52:07.328
Do you think you've gained that wisdom from being outside, from skiing, from the time you've spent?
Mike Rogge
00:52:07.504 - 00:54:38.776
Yes. And I think also from our writers, truthfully, our writers and our photographers and our artists of, like. I think of J.
Blakesburg going to jail for selling LSD in 1981. Like, only because of. I forget. Exactly. Because of a technicality. He didn't serve a life in prison for selling LSD to the Grateful Dead show.
Instead, he went on to be arguably the most talented Grateful Dead photographer In the history, 60 year history of the band. And I'm certain there were nights in jail where Jay did not think it's all going to work out.
Or some of our artists that do really eclectic things because it speaks to them.
And I won't say getting in the magazine, like, prove that to them or something like that, but, you know, like, they've got their thing and it's worked out.
And I think I'm constantly getting validation from our contributors that you can be into a lot of weird shit and everything's gonna work out, like, you'll be fine, you know, and. And we forget about this. I think the Internet, the promise of the Internet was that we would all find each other these micro communities.
And I don't know that that's true. I think it actually pitted them against each other. But I'm not a climber. But Michael Levy and Summit Journal are finding their climbing community.
Zach Seeley and Hardpack, the ski magazine out of Brooklyn. It's fashion forward, really eclectic. And I tell everyone Zach's making a magazine that's not for me, but it's for some people, and they love it.
It's the magazine. They have hated powder and ski and skiing and new schoolers and everything I've ever like that was never speaking to them.
And finally they have a ski magazine that truly speaks to them.
I find that niche media right now, podcasts in particular, are just doing a great job of finding these micro communities and fostering something really cool. Mike Powell does a great job with, like, celebrity action, sports culture.
You know, like, you're doing a good job talking to maybe some people that are off the beaten path, you know, And I'm feeling a lot more comfortable in my skin because I'm constantly meeting people that are super comfortable in their skin. It's like, okay, well, they can live there, I can live here. Like, we're okay. And that's, that's a nice feeling.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:54:38.968 - 00:54:59.426
I love that. Well, unfortunately, I feel like we're just getting rolling when we're just starting to run out of time. But.
And I think you're, I think we've moved towards it in the last couple of questions I asked you. But I'll give you the final question we gave everyone at the end of the podcast, which is in the end, what gives you hope?
Mike Rogge
00:54:59.578 - 00:57:12.000
Oh, man, the people are still trying things. People are still trying new things. There is a cottage industry in media that is all conspiracy driven and doomer and everything's terrible.
And the reason why they do that is because they are getting positive feedback in the terms of dollars and attention back. But there's also more people who pay no attention to that world and live really meaningful, happy, impactful lives.
What gives me hope is that we are actually not all slaves to an algorithm. I mean, to take a shot. I mean, God, $400 million in the most iconic name in outdoor magazines and they don't seem to be doing that great.
So it can't all be about money. And I'm just going to be honest. I think it's about soul, I think it's about heart, I think it's about your gut.
And that gives me hope because I think those of us that are living our lives with purpose beyond the like, financial dollars and cents part of it, like, we're actually okay, you know, we're doing okay. It's not to say that people aren't suffering right now and struggling right now, because they are, but they're going to get through it.
And in these downtimes, I mean, people forget this, but Mountain Gazette was truly born on necessity. In Covid. My wife works in hotels, I worked in video production. Those were the things that were going away.
And so we put our heads together at the dinner table after our son was asleep. We had one at the time and we would just talk about it. Would this work? Why wouldn't this work?
We'd poke holes in each other's theories and like, that's why Megan's our vice president, is because she's heard more of this shit than anybody. Maybe, maybe next to you and Cray, but yeah, man, I don't know. A lot gives me hope. It's sun shining outside today.
It could rain tomorrow, but the sun will come out again. I don't know. I think, yeah, I'll get political. We're going to defeat these fascist fucks. And they're not going to like it.
They're not going to like the other side of it, but we'll all like the other side of it. And there'll be problems with the other side of it, too. And we'll figure that part out, too.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:57:12.120 - 00:57:30.420
I love it. Well, as always, it's always great to talk to you, and it's incredible to work with you.
And it's incredible that you're putting Mountain Gazette out there, both for the contributors and even more so for the writers. And now for people who are not yet contributors to Mountain Gazette, how can they go about doing that?
Mike Rogge
00:57:31.440 - 00:59:04.640
We have contributor guidelines on our website. We do read them. We do not reject everybody. And I'm sorry for that. I wish we could, but it would just take up too much time.
We get thousands of pitches a year for about 45 stories annually. And so we look through them. We'll find you. Jim Morrison is the only person to successfully pitch me on a chairlift.
It's because he skied one of the most consequential lines in the history of ski mountaineering. And also the lift stopped, so we had extra time.
So I would prefer if you didn't slide into my DMs on Instagram and pitch me a story, because I feel bad, like leaving it unread. But we find good stories.
And I promise you, when we find you and your story, if you want to write or shoot or do art for Mountain Gazette, when we find you, we're going to present your work in the best way possible, and it will all be worth it. But in the meantime, there's plenty of other outlets out there. Adam Howard and I talk about this all the time.
He's at Backcountry Magazine of We are so complimentary of one another. You can put stuff in backcountry or Elevation Outdoors, or, you know, you could be a guest on Rock Fight or Power. You know what I mean?
Like, there's a lot of ways to get out there, find people that want to publish your work and just do it. You know, I wrote for Elevation Outdoors right after I got a job at Powder.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:59:04.720 - 00:59:06.656
That's right. Yes, you did. Yeah.
Mike Rogge
00:59:06.768 - 00:59:13.840
And I was like, I'd never even heard of this. I didn't even know where. I couldn't point Boulder out on a map, but here we are.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:59:13.960 - 00:59:18.260
Well, even better. Something that everyone can do. How can people subscribe to Mountain Gazette?
Mike Rogge
00:59:18.730 - 00:59:58.650
Yes. So you can go to mountaingazette.com subscribe sign up. It's two issues a year. We do have a few limited copies of our current issue.
We only make enough for our readers. And by readers, I mean subscribers.
The idea is we're not a mass market magazine and we don't want to take the big financial risk of being on a newsstand.
So, yeah, subscribe that reserves your copy and know that, you know, now with our new email system, like our mailing system, we'll find you, like, we'll be able to like, get your magazine to you whether you, you're traveling in a van or you move to Europe or something cool like that. So that's it. Mountaingazette.com you can find everything that we have on the Internet there.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:59:59.590 - 01:00:04.222
Amazing. All right, Mike. Well, really good to talk to you as always. Thanks so much.
Mike Rogge
01:00:04.406 - 01:00:05.370
Thank you.
Doug Schnitzspahn
01:00:06.470 - 01:00:34.600
Thanks for imbibing Open Container, a production of Rock Fight, llc.
Please take a second to follow our show on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on and send your emails and feedback to myrockfightmail.com subscribe to Mountain Gazette@mountaingazette.com Our producers today were David Karstad and Colin True. Art direction provided by Sarah Genser. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. Get some. Thanks for listening.
