Today on THE ROCK FIGHT (an outdoor podcast that aims for the head) Colin starts the show by taking a look at the sheer number of outdoor apparel brands that are all making pretty much the same products and have the same brand messaging.
He and Producer Dave talk about how this situation has created an upside for differentiation and success for the brand who is bold enough to try something different.
Eoin Comerford then joins Colin and PD for his weekly look Inside the Outdoor Industry.
This week Eoin discusses several notable outdoor brands who are deploying a 'contract to grow' strategy to stabilize their business and create an opportunity for future growth. Eoin also offers his take on the impact that the proposed tariffs by the incoming Trump administration could have on the Outdoor Industry.
Colin & Producer Dave then wrap up the episode with their Parting Shots. PD takes a look at the new brand direction by automobile maker Jaguar while Colin defends retailers by throwing a rock at the in-store Christmas music experience.
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Episode Transcript
olin True
00:00:00.360 - 00:01:57.181
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Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True. It's Monday.
I'm here with producer Dave and we're kicking off December with a state with the state of outdoor apparel brands here in the US that's gonna be first. But then stick around to hear the Rock Fight's own consigliere, Owen Comerford, who has some brand hot takes of his own.
It's another action packed Rock Fight. But first, have you subscribed to Rock Fight's weekly newsletter?
If not, you still have time to get the original Rock Fight content that we don't put anywhere else. It's in News from the front. It's our newsletter. It comes out every Tuesday. Head to Rockfight Co and click Join the mailing list to sign up.
And lastly, if you're new around here, we would love it if you subscribe to the Rock Fight and click the follow button on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on, give us that five star rating and that's all we got. So let's start the show.
Chris DeMakes
00:01:57.243 - 00:02:01.245
Welcome to the Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Colin True
00:02:02.425 - 00:03:29.751
All right, if you listen to last Wednesday's episode of the Rock Fight. You heard Justin Houseman and I talk about the news that French brand Mille is trying to break into the US outdoor specialty market.
And we had offered, we offered some initial thoughts on the challenges that MIL will have.
And if you missed it, the gist of our conversation is that MIL is a very cool outdoor brand with great products, but that it has been historically tough sledding for brands from Europe trying to make a significant dentist in the outdoor market here in the United States.
The feedback I received from some contacts I have in specialty retail was that, largely speaking, speaking, there's a lot of love for European outdoor brands, but not a ton of open to buy for them because consumers don't support them as strongly as they do the entrenched brands that we probably talk about the most here on the Rock Fight. Basically, the reach, scope and scale of our domestic brands make it hard for outsiders to make meaningful inroads to the shop floor.
Now, I posted about that episode on LinkedIn, and in the comments over there, someone listed out the European brands who are all currently doing what Mille wants to do. And shout out to Tyler Noonan for compiling that list, which is longer than you may think. So here are the brands.
This is the list that Tyler posted on my post on LinkedIn.
All right, it goes Rab Houdini, Fial, Raven Mountain Equipment, Heli Hansen, Nerona, Adidas, Black Crows, Sweet Protection, La Sportiva, Mammut Montane, Sala. And I also want to add picture to the list as well. We both forgot about that.
Producer Dave
00:03:29.903 - 00:03:33.875
Colin Wolfie, Jack Wolf. Can't forget Jack Wolfskin.
Colin True
00:03:34.175 - 00:03:35.695
THEY LAUGH they gave up.
Producer Dave
00:03:35.815 - 00:03:38.823
They're a European brand. They can always have their status.
Colin True
00:03:38.959 - 00:03:43.395
These are the brands who are trying to get presents here. Jack Wolfgang's like, we're out. We can't handle.
Producer Dave
00:03:43.815 - 00:03:49.275
They're like fanny packs and Speedos. They'll just be part of the German American experience.
Colin True
00:03:49.775 - 00:03:57.135
They're actually like, they're putting on like glasses of the fake mustache to try and, like, latch onto another brand and get back into the U.S. they'll be back.
Producer Dave
00:03:57.215 - 00:03:58.875
They've got a Eurorail pass.
Colin True
00:03:59.415 - 00:04:02.767
I open this box in mammoth stuff and there's all this Jack Wolfgan stuff.
Producer Dave
00:04:02.831 - 00:04:06.903
Generous vacation policy. They'll be good. They'll be back. Oh, they put it on your floor.
Colin True
00:04:06.959 - 00:04:08.151
Don't worry about it.
Producer Dave
00:04:08.303 - 00:04:11.087
It'll be good. That's right. That's right.
Colin True
00:04:11.151 - 00:04:33.931
So looking at that list, though, it kind of drives home the larger point that Justin and I were trying to make, which is that there's just no way that MIA is going to make it relying simply on good press and athlete sponsors, which is their stated marketing strategy, per the announcement that they're coming to the States. But like Justin and I talked about, it won't be enough. I mean, think about the list I just read. That's not enough or the list.
Producer Dave
00:04:34.123 - 00:04:37.375
No, it's disappointing that that's their stated strategy.
Colin True
00:04:38.315 - 00:06:07.827
Right. I mean, so, you know, if you take in a.
Let's just take an apparel point of view, specifically apparel, because on that list you have Sweet Protection, which is a Norwegian helmet brand, La Sportiva is on there, which is primarily footwear, and Black Crows, which is, you know, a French ski brand. That leaves still about 10 brands all with assortments where there's going to be a lot of similarities in both the branding and the products.
Let's start with that. Now let's match up that list against the competition they're all trying to overcome. These are our U.S. and Canadian outdoor brands.
This list I generated by filtering the hiking apparel brands on Rei.com, because hiking is the one common activity that crosses over with all these brands. And also, you know, don't forget, a lot of these brands aren't domestic only.
Many of them have their own global aspirations to break into other marketplaces outside of the US Or North America, I should say. So here's that list.
We have Mountain Hardware, Outdoor Research, Patagonia, rei, smartwool, the North Face, arc'teryx, Artillect, Black Diamond, Columbia, Codapoxy, Flylo, Free Country, Icebreaker, Cool Marmot, Mec Prana, Royal Robins, Cirrus, Sherpa, Spider, Terra, Amar View, and let's go ahead and add Steo into that as well. They are not on rei.com but, you know, want to make sure they get their mention. So that's not a short list. Right.
And there are brands that I know I outright missed and there are some that are small that I just did include, like off the Dome. I didn't add Lululemon, Under Armour, Nike.
Producer Dave
00:06:07.971 - 00:06:09.115
Those small brands.
Colin True
00:06:09.275 - 00:06:10.723
Yeah, those little tiny ones.
Producer Dave
00:06:10.779 - 00:06:11.227
Yeah.
Colin True
00:06:11.331 - 00:06:29.979
On the up and coming side, all hidden. We've talked about brands here like Nara, Passenger, Livesen. There's even more, right? There's just so many more.
Now this is kind of where we hit a fork in the road because this would be a great place to pivot into a too much stuff conversation. But that's not what we're talking about today.
Producer Dave
00:06:30.067 - 00:06:32.935
You also forgot Puffin Drinkwear.
Colin True
00:06:34.035 - 00:06:36.495
Well, that's for a very small person.
Producer Dave
00:06:36.875 - 00:06:39.495
Well, Look, a jacket's a jacket.
Colin True
00:06:40.315 - 00:08:20.065
Oh, my God, that's hilarious. The outdoor brand for leprechauns, right?
But if you think of the sheer quantity of stuff that the brands we've listed so far have to make in order to distribute globally, you're really starting to see the bigger picture problem we have on the production and sustainability front. But this is a brand and competitiveness conversation.
And every single brand that I've mentioned so far, no matter where or when they were founded, who they claim their core customer to be or whatever, every one of them crosses into that Venn diagram with the products that they make. And when we say there is a sea of sameness in outdoor retail, this is what we're talking about.
Just literally dozens of brands with similar vibes and nearly identical products. Now, all of these brands have the same material and fabric options available to them.
All of them have mostly the same manufacturing options available to them. In fact, you can bet that many of them make their stuff in the same factories. They are, largely speaking, all going after the same customer.
So where are the opportunities to differentiate? How can they find ways to stand apart in the literal sea of sameness when the lineup gets rolled out at the outdoor. At the outdoor cathouse?
What makes you look and say, oh, that one? And it's simple. It's in the brand. I mean, it's probably why you hear me get frustrated on this podcast when I see brands. Yes.
Ending and what has already been done by others rather than make bold steps to win over consumers. Okay, Dave, I want to bring you in on this in a second because I know this isn't just like in your wheelhouse, but this is your wheelhouse.
But before we do, let's use MIE as one last example. Not looking to beat up on them, just using them as an example. So right now, I want you to go to mie's website.
Producer Dave
00:08:20.725 - 00:08:21.309
Okay.
Colin True
00:08:21.397 - 00:08:25.837
And be careful Googling, because when you write in Mie, it comes across as millet. And you got to get a bunch of grain.
Producer Dave
00:08:25.941 - 00:08:30.521
So many baking options. Okay, hold on.
Colin True
00:08:30.553 - 00:08:34.185
So the first thing you see on mie's website when you go to it is what?
Producer Dave
00:08:34.305 - 00:08:48.245
Okay, the first thing I see is millet days. I mean, mille days. And it is a. It's an ice climber calling in a kind of a blue tinted ice climber telling me that there's 50% off.
Colin True
00:08:48.745 - 00:08:51.297
Well, that. Okay, we want to record this on Thanksgiving weekend. Right?
Producer Dave
00:08:51.361 - 00:08:51.489
Right.
Colin True
00:08:51.497 - 00:08:51.977
So there you go.
Producer Dave
00:08:52.001 - 00:08:52.605
Okay.
Colin True
00:08:53.065 - 00:08:55.473
And it's the US version of the site, presumably. Right.
Producer Dave
00:08:55.529 - 00:08:57.001
So I'm guessing then I scroll.
Colin True
00:08:57.033 - 00:09:02.505
Now, as you scroll through, what are other things you see? Does anything familiar, maybe?
Producer Dave
00:09:02.805 - 00:09:27.181
Oh, well, yeah, I've pretty much had a beer with every one of these people at some point in some way, in some town. Look, we have smiling people wearing puffy jackets. We have smiling person wearing a pullover.
We have a not so smiling person wearing a Gore Tex jacket. I'm not sure that that's, you know, intentional, that. Right. I'm just saying.
Colin True
00:09:27.213 - 00:09:28.533
So the products look familiar?
Producer Dave
00:09:28.629 - 00:09:40.969
They sure do. And then I've got a man in a puffy jacket walking somewh and they have a woman in a puffy jacket looking someplace with a mountain in the background.
They look like they were taken a few feet apart.
Colin True
00:09:41.137 - 00:09:46.889
So fair to say, like insert, you know, brand website X here.
Producer Dave
00:09:47.017 - 00:09:56.833
Without a doubt, they look like category headers. Right? Which they are. Right. They're mountaineering and ski touring and they are all. But yeah, sure, it's definitely a lot of landscape photography.
Colin True
00:09:57.009 - 00:11:54.095
So look, okay, now, again, I'm not beating up on M by having you do this exercise. This is a brand that's been around since 1921.
They've clearly done something right to be a relevant and interesting outdoor brand 103 years after they got started. There's a lot of much younger brands who can't make the claims that M can. But this conversation isn't questioning their legitimacy.
It's looking at how they can be successful in their goal of entering the US marketplace. And they might get lucky. Right? They could be just the right brand at the right time. It's happened before.
I mean, things seem to be trending up at outdoor retail in the US as you hear from Owen Cumberford when we get to his part of the conversation in a few minutes, open a buy is increasing. But we all know also that hope isn't a strategy. They don't want to just rely on crossing their fingers.
They need to be looking at how they can stand apart against the more than 40 other brands I listed just a few minutes ago, because that's who's standing in their way. And according to outdoor retailers, that's who the domestic consumer is conditioned to buy.
So the last thing before I pass the mic over to Dave, are there just, I want to ask, are there too many brands? I mean, it doesn't really seem like it because most of the brands I read are relatively seasoned. They've been around for a while.
They can continue to somewhere between exist and thrive. But even still, what do you find exciting about A brand on the list I just read. Right.
They're all relatively competent at outfitting you for your adventures in everyday life. But what makes any one of them interesting or stand apart from any others? And I'm actually asking you, the listeners this question.
I want you to send your answers to that question. What do you find exciting about these brands?
Please send your answers to my rock fight mail.com I want to know which outdoor brands give you that little jolt of excitement when you see their stuff and why you think that is. Again myrockfightmail.com so he's been very patient. Maybe not so much very patient. Actually hasn't been patient really at all to produce her.
Dave, what do you find exciting about any of these brands or any brand at all?
Producer Dave
00:11:54.175 - 00:14:26.693
I am a jaded veteran of the outdoor branding wars and it's hard to get too excited over the same thing over and over and over.
I mean how many landscape photographs can you look at and see the same, you know, beautiful photography, single person, arms in the air, being excited that they're there and you're not. So I think that, you know, you said what's the difference? That's my biggest issue. And we go back to the MIA website.
My biggest issue is you remove the logo and you'd be impossible to tell whose website you're at. Right. If they make gear, not just any of these brands. That's right. That's what. And that's exactly right. So I think so what do I get excited about?
I see the opportunity to distinguish oneself is so evident when you look at the branding across the board. They all fall into different groups, some kind of handle it similar ways, you know.
You know, like if you take an arc and a Neurona and a Patagonia, they're going to have elevated photography. That's what they do. Right. Other brands are going to make sure everyone is smiling. Right. Because they're open for everybody and it's smiling.
We're having fun now. We're just going to just continue to beat that into you. So everybody has a shades of it but it does seem to be the same playbook over and over.
And so I'm looking for someone with an opportunity to be distinctive and to bring a new way of presenting like minded or similar products to the market. Because at the end of the day what you calling brand, it's about story. Who is telling a unique and consistent and interesting story to the mix.
Patagonia. Regardless of whether they're good at humor or not, sometimes they fail and fall in.
They've told a consistent story both visually and verbally for a very long time. So therefore you're buying into their story and the way they tell it.
And people have tried to chase that, but no one have really leaned into they're actually storytelling beyond just their product, right? They have, they have in the famous catalog kind of started this off. I'm going to tell a little bit longer form. I'm going to provide some editorial.
And so I've integrated story as well as my product technical feature benefit story as part of our brand. And I see brands as kind of unwilling or unable to do that for the most part. So what you get is a one dimensional conversation with them.
Colin True
00:14:26.789 - 00:15:01.215
This is, this has got to be semi universal, right? I mean, maybe we have more outdoor brand, more brands in the outdoors that are sort of stepping on each other's toes.
But I gotta think if you pick a category, there's gotta be some similarities, right? Whether it's automotive or the soda wars, right?
Like sort of the way brands tell their story, there's probably some similarities in the category regardless. I just kind of was seeing this list of all of these brands, like, how are any, like, how are half of these still around?
Like, why haven't it all just been cannibalized by like eight brands and that's it now, you know what I mean?
Producer Dave
00:15:01.675 - 00:16:29.305
In a kind of way they have, right? I mean, in terms of kind of, you know, that's still kind of a 20 80, right rule. The 20, 20% of those brands are the ones doing most of the volume.
So it does sort itself out. I mean, also too, what you're getting into is all of these brands for the most part are trying to capture a multi generational audience.
So they're trying to be right down the middle with that as opposed to standing for a generation. Many of these brands started not just by standing for the outdoor, they stood for a generation, right?
This was the generation of that time that they were the brand of. And so as they grow, they try to keep that generation as they age and get older. But how do we keep younger?
And they end up kind of not doing anything for anybody middle of the roads, right? And that's the kind of safe, safe path. And it doesn't mean it's the right path.
But if you do look at like other sectors, like say an action sports sector, those brands are unabashedly talking to a younger consumer, right? And so therefore their tactics are focused on that. And so they tend to be a little bit more exciting, a little bit more energy to their market.
They're more to stand out. You know, any, any kind of anything looking at that younger consumer is going to have to, that's the playbook you have to draw from.
So you're going to get energy that way. Where an outdoor, they just have a tendency to kind of just like I said, middle of the road it and just a good way to get run over.
Colin, you're just not going to, not going to stand out.
Colin True
00:16:29.645 - 00:16:39.973
Well and there's also the vast majority of the stuff going to people who aren't really interested in doing outdoor adventure sports. Right. It's just like that's no excuse to.
Producer Dave
00:16:39.989 - 00:17:02.433
Look like everything else. In fact, maybe that's more of an excuse because they're going to be less discerning as to the true technical differences.
You know, the gearheads are all going to be out there knowing the differences between these things and they're going to make these choices based on minute, you know, distinction. People out there just want a coat that works, that looks cool, that plays my kind of, that fits my identity status. Right. And so.
Colin True
00:17:02.529 - 00:17:02.929
Right.
Producer Dave
00:17:03.017 - 00:18:00.665
Give me an easy way to define that and I'm going to make an easier choice to find you versus looking through things that all look the same thing. I mean again, it goes back to the one dimensional conversation brands have a one dimensional conversation.
I am an outdoor, so I'm going to show you outside pictures of being outside. And I am a product, so I'm going to show you a picture of a product and that's it. Where we have relationships with brands on a personal level. Right.
And so I often use a kind of a. You, I've talked about it before, but kind of like a Persona map, 360 degrees.
You are surrounding your consumer with different messages about status, about authority, about being a cheerleader, about joy, about pragmatism, the value that I bring. All of these need messaging to talk to your consumers so that they can adopt an actual relationship with your brand.
And if you lose all those to just one or two or three, they get drowned out and then I'm just having a transactional relationship with your brand and that's, that's what I see happening.
Colin True
00:18:01.085 - 00:18:18.925
So is there one on either of these lists? Which by the way, I just realized we also should have had 66 north on the European one by me.
But is there one on here where you as a consumer like put aside your brand hat for a second and you look at that brand like, ah, that's the one I like. That's the one for Me like that's. That's the one that kind of.
Producer Dave
00:18:18.965 - 00:18:52.237
Well, I guess here's the thing. This is what I like. Do I think that there's too many brands, like, going back to the beginning? No.
If brands are good at telling a distinct story, they're going to find their audience. Okay. And so it's like I take Houdini.
Houdini is very disciplined about their brand and they very much want to tell this same story about who they are and how they present. I personally find that not that interesting. I personally think that that's going to have a tough time resonating in the US market in under 30 years.
Colin True
00:18:52.301 - 00:18:56.789
Because you hate circularity. It's well known and documented how much you want to.
Producer Dave
00:18:56.917 - 00:19:25.157
But.
But are there folks that dig what they're putting down? Yes. And so they've clearly defined themselves, but it's a slow growth. That's part of their story too. So. Good. That's great.
66 north, who you brought up. I think they do a very interesting job of being credible outdoor with an elevated sense of fashion and aesthetic.
And even their landscape pictures tend to have a little bit something different to them. So it feels different than another more.
Colin True
00:19:25.181 - 00:19:29.413
In the arc terix wing of the outdoor vibe. Right, Right.
Producer Dave
00:19:29.469 - 00:19:56.885
They brought a look to themselves and that was part of their brand discussion with people. This is what we're bringing you. Something that feels elevated. So that's as much of a value and a feature as kind of the product itself.
It's like, what am I feeling? And so many of these brands can't break out of that.
It all feels the same versus no, it's a similar theme, but it's elevated, it's different, it's distinct, it's the way we're talking about it.
Colin True
00:19:57.705 - 00:21:14.527
So the one thing I said on the episode with Justin was that this is where. Okay. The stated strategy for me in their press release was.
And again, I'm just going off of what's in the press release and we put it out there again. Anyone from MIA over in France or here in the US reach out myrockfightmail.com we'd love to have a conversation with you.
I think this is very interesting. I'd love to get your purview on this.
The one thing, if the strategy is sell it into some retail shops, which someone will try it, there's always going to be someone who gives it a shot. Maybe you do get it placed at rei, that'd be great for you.
But then if the complimentary sort of experience goes with athlete Sponsorships and press releases just doesn't feel like enough to me to stand out. Right. You need to educate the consumer. You need to kind of really differentiate your brand to kind of like to do what Dave is talking about.
So I was like, they need to advertise. And I don't mean like just start running like super bowl ads, but like go weird.
I think I said in the newsletter last week, like, go full Aiden at Nutter Butter and like really get people talking about you, you know, just like, what is the. You know, Justin said, well, listen, everyone's gonna call you Millet anyway.
Like, do a bunch of ads with like Millet in it, like, and like lean into it, like. And I know that's sort of like low hanging fruit and we're just kind of spitballing, but how do you feel like, like, what is. If you're mi.
What is the way you sort of break in and stand apart from all of these other brands?
Producer Dave
00:21:14.631 - 00:21:25.859
Well, one thing about that, it has been determined by science that European outdoor brands do not have a sense of humor. Colin. So therefore running, then here's your opportunity.
Colin True
00:21:25.947 - 00:21:27.091
Have a sense of humor.
Producer Dave
00:21:27.243 - 00:21:31.611
So clearly that's not going to fly, right?
Colin True
00:21:31.683 - 00:21:34.235
No, we must be earnest and stand on the bounce.
Producer Dave
00:21:34.355 - 00:21:35.735
That's exactly right.
Colin True
00:21:37.755 - 00:21:39.375
That might be part of the problem.
Producer Dave
00:21:40.395 - 00:23:44.275
Well, there's always a cultural kind of divide for sure. For the longest time there has been some maxims that kind of play themselves out in our industry.
One was that an apparel brand can't make footwear, that it never works. A footwear can move into apparel. That has come down a bit some, but it's still a kind of a, like I said, it kind of holds itself out.
The others, that is in American brands can go to Europe, but European brands can't come to America. And that was just, I think mostly based on just kind of the kind of gender styles and things like that that we have kind of in this country.
Look, we're just not as fashionable at the end of the day across the mainstream. But those are just, like I said, more of just kind of observations of the past.
Not necessarily what can happen going forward, but it is built in bias for sure. Like you said, retailers though, they see there's a uniqueness in some of these brands, but they don't help them tell that story.
So like you said, advertising, you know, Mie basically said through their press release, is that we're going to offer some product, we're going to have some salespeople visit you, but we're not going to support this in any way to create awareness or preference amongst your consumer. I mean, that's what they've said. Right. And so it's just like. So you're not going to employ the tactics that are necessary to break into a market.
If you were a startup with that kind of plan, people are like, well, how long are you going to take? You know, I plan to break $2 million in sales in 60 years. We'll get there. So I just, I think that's part of the issue.
So they've kind of telegraphed that they're not going to really support this in a way that needs to happen, as opposed to saying, you know what, we're committed too. So we're going to come in here and make sure that your customer knows who we are. Right. And we're going to really break out of that.
And, you know, it doesn't even have to be of a, you know, super, super outrageous repositioning. It's just getting, you know, how am I going to start talking to your customer, retailer? How am I going to talk to them?
And like I said, build awareness and preference.
Colin True
00:23:44.435 - 00:24:14.575
Yeah.
And before anybody kind of comes at us that we're being mean to some of these brands, like, don't forget, this is in response to the fact that I had a retailer say to me I'd carry five or six of these European brands, but they just don't sell that well in my shop. They've tried.
I'm saying, how do we kind of work around that established issue and create opportunities for these brands to be a little more successful, to get some dealers to, to inform the consumer that, like, oh, have you heard of that cool new brand that's doing really fun and interesting things? I saw it on Instagram and TikTok and now I'm actually in a shop looking for it. Like, that's kind of what we need to get to.
Producer Dave
00:24:14.695 - 00:24:58.637
So since we're talking about European brands, maybe a monarchy analogy would make sense here. Colin, that brand is, or excuse me, product is king. Right, we understand that, but brand is queen and we all know who really runs the show. Right.
So in one sense, like you said, the retailer, they've got great products, they merchandise, well, they're beautiful, but they just don't sell because you don't have the brand adding that aspect to it so that they don't know when they're coming in, people are coming in or reinforcing. Why I should believe my instinct. Boy, that looks really good.
Oh, it's, you know, it's got a high Price point, it must be premium, but I'm just not sure. Right, you gotta fill in with both King and queen there.
Colin True
00:24:58.781 - 00:26:46.593
Yep. So again I ask our listeners, what are these brands? Which one of these brands give you that little joke? Why do you like them?
To Dave's point, like, what is it about that? What is it about the Queen that makes you go, ooh, those guys are awesome? And why?
Myrockfightmail.com now that we've solved all those problems, it's time time for our weekly segment to make sure you're getting more out of the outdoors. It's time for more with Thermore.
Well, since we mentioned them in the last segment, let's throw a little love to a brand that is very familiar with doing more with Thermore. And that would be Steo. And right now Steo is running their holiday sale on their website, steo.com, which of course they are. It's Thanksgiving.
So that includes on that website, that includes maybe the best jacket I've ever seen, which is the steel buckthorn insulated snap shirt that is powered by, you guessed it, Thermore Ecodown. Like I've told you before, Thermore Ecodown is the sustainable alternative to down feathers. Ecodown is made from 100% post consumer plastic bottles.
It can save up to 10 bottles per garment.
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And we just got done telling you that your brand needs to differentiate itself from all the other brands out there. Well, you can start with the basic ingredients and the products that you're making.
So if you want a dope shacket, head to stio.com for the buckthorn insulated snap shirt. And if you want to make a difference in your own apparel collection, head to thermore.com to learn more about Eco Down.
Because whether it's making amazing new garments, are staying warm and safe out on the trail, you can do more with Thermore.
Producer Dave
00:26:46.769 - 00:26:58.009
Colin, that's such a feel good story, right? We have a North American brand working with a European ingredient. Kumbaya. I just think this is where it all begins.
Colin True
00:26:58.137 - 00:26:59.921
These are brands that are differentiating themselves.
Producer Dave
00:26:59.993 - 00:27:00.513
They are.
Colin True
00:27:00.609 - 00:27:01.857
That's what we're talking about on both.
Producer Dave
00:27:01.881 - 00:27:02.845
Sides of the pond.
Colin True
00:27:07.065 - 00:27:07.697
Dave.
Producer Dave
00:27:07.801 - 00:27:08.493
Yuck.
Colin True
00:27:08.649 - 00:27:31.325
It's time, time to get into this week's chat with outdoor industry insider and consigliere to the rock fight. It's time to hear from our guy, Owen Comerford.
All right, well, we're back with Owen Comerford, Rock Flight Mafia's consigliere and to take a look inside the outdoor industry. Owen, how was your Thanksgiving? Are you missing your retail days this weekend?
Eoin Comerford
00:27:31.485 - 00:28:00.527
Not so much, actually. This is my first Black Friday in centuries where I wasn't watching the sales tick in by the minute. So it was, it was weirdly freeing. Yeah.
And usually actually my family decorates the home, the house on the Friday after Thanksgiving. And I managed to avoid that by working. And so I think my wife thought this year that I would actually help, but I managed to work anyway, so.
Colin True
00:28:00.631 - 00:28:07.125
Well. So the topic you pick out today, you said was the trend in the industry about contract to grow. What is it that you got for us today?
Eoin Comerford
00:28:07.505 - 00:29:34.073
Yeah, what I'm really seeing in the news and in talking to brands is this dawning realization that 2022 was an outlier. It wasn't just another year in the ongoing growth of the industry and more and more brands kind of just saying, hey, okay, we get it.
We're not going to get back to 2022. We're not going to grow beyond that.
And in fact, we need to contract before we can grow because, you know, we're at this unsustainable level of production. We're clearly not.
There clearly isn't enough sort of organic demand in the marketplace from the consumer to buy it at full price and, you know, shoving it down the consumer's throat with discount after discount or, you know, shipping it off through Sierra or whatever is just not working. And, you know, we're at this unsustainable level of margins to where we can't really grow the business.
And so really, in order to get to a better place, we have to contract to grow.
So, you know, which, which is really very, it's like, it's like the antithesis of the, like the private equity model or the overall, you know, stock market model, which is growth, growth, growth, growth, growth, you know, ideally profitable growth. But you have to grow, right? You have to get bigger year after years.
And there's a mantra within, within private equity, even within businesses called growth or die.
Colin True
00:29:34.129 - 00:29:34.273
Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:29:34.289 - 00:32:00.083
You're either going to grow, and if you're not growing, you're dying, basically. But the other mantra, which I think is even more to the point, which is, you know, if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
And I think that's where the industry Is right now is they're like, oh, okay, we just have way too much share and we probably produce too much for a long time.
But now maybe we finally have an excuse as a company, as an industry just to take a step back and say, okay, let's do a research and figure out what is actually our natural sustainable volume level. And really, I think one of the first companies that I saw go down this path was actually Wolverine Worldwide.
So Chris Huffnagel took over their CEO, I think 23. And you know, he, I mean, Merrill at Wolverine, you know, it's been a. It's been a rough go.
So we'll call it, I mean, like the whole Moab 3 launch, I mean, everything just woof. Anyway, they just basically said, okay, we're just going to cut now. They sold off some assets, which was fine.
But even in the core group, I want to say they're down. Their Q2 results, they were off 40% from 20, 22. 40%. So not quite cut in half, but I mean, 40%, that's. That's huge. That's huge. It's. Yeah, yeah.
But by the same token, their gross margins were back up to historical levels, you know, up like 400 basis points. So, like, you know, which is a lot. I think their inventories were down 50 some percent.
So they'd slashed their inventories, which obviously needed to happen, and now they're starting to see margins come back. The most recent, I haven't really dug into their, into their Q3 numbers quite yet, but they narrowed the sales gap.
It was, I think it was off about 16%. And then I think Merrell actually comped. So a positive comp. Very low.
But I think Merrill, actually, the Merrell brand comped and their net income doubled. But now I'm hearing, now it's more of a drumbeat of that. So Black diamond just came out, same basic message.
And Neil Fisk is there and great operator. I've known Neil since his Eddie Bauer days.
Colin True
00:32:00.219 - 00:32:04.019
Yeah, they announced theirs in the spring. Buck Diamond's been talking about it almost all year.
Eoin Comerford
00:32:04.147 - 00:32:24.295
Okay, so it's similar, right, because he came in because the prior regime there was, I would say, focused on Wall street to a fault and very much the outward perception of the company. And I think if you talk to people inside Black diamond, they felt that and hated it.
Colin True
00:32:24.335 - 00:32:30.207
Oh, yeah, definitely, definitely. It was not good. It was not good times at Black diamond the last few years.
Eoin Comerford
00:32:30.311 - 00:32:50.855
No, no, it didn't feel like an outdoor company. It felt like a private equity company.
So I think with Neil and the new regime there, they're really getting a little bit back to the roots, which I think is absolutely the right thing to do. Now, that said, I just forwarded you their Black Friday email, which was up to 70% off, which is.
Colin True
00:32:51.015 - 00:32:59.807
Yeah, that's not a Black Friday sale. That's like a liquidation sale. That's a lot. It's a huge percentage.
Eoin Comerford
00:32:59.991 - 00:33:09.383
Yeah, it is. Well, but actually, I want to say last year's Black Friday sale was up to 90% off. So really, we're getting better.
Colin True
00:33:09.559 - 00:33:14.675
So what are some other examples of folks you're seeing out there who are looking to proactively contract to grow?
Eoin Comerford
00:33:15.215 - 00:33:59.335
Well, Rumple Blankets just came out with an article about what they're up to and how they're pulling back. You know, and I've talked with Wiley. Good guy.
They've been through it, quite frankly, the last couple of years, I think, and saw massive growth and then, like 600% growth, I think it was, in 2022.
And then really, I think, started down a path that maybe wasn't the right path for them in terms of distribution and pricing and all kinds of stuff and product. And now they're really.
They're also, you know, retrenching and kind of getting back to basics speak in terms of their product, their retail pricing, their overall approach.
Producer Dave
00:33:59.455 - 00:34:19.823
Well, I was just going to. We're calling this contract to grow. Isn't this. And, you know, kind of come.
Like you said, there was this kind of coming out of the realization that 22 was not a. Was not a typical year. Wasn't that realization going on then? Well, didn't we already know that we were. This would come out.
Colin True
00:34:19.839 - 00:34:21.815
These are pretty atypical, right?
Producer Dave
00:34:21.855 - 00:34:30.675
And coming out of the pandemic, we knew these. Like I say, I see this problem is like. Like we're growing too fast. All the forces that enable this growth are unsustainable. And they're.
Colin True
00:34:30.715 - 00:34:33.155
Guys, we're up to 60%. This is gonna happen.
Producer Dave
00:34:33.235 - 00:34:41.539
Telling us this, but we're gonna double down. And we got caught holding the overstocked bag. I mean, frankly, that's what this sounds like.
Eoin Comerford
00:34:41.707 - 00:35:21.415
Yeah, but it's just human nature to believe. It's human nature to believe that the good things that happen, you directly impacted, and the bad things that happened weren't your fault.
I mean, look at inflation, right? And this latest election. The reality is that wage growth actually kept up with inflation in this country.
But people were so pissed off about inflation because they felt like inflation happened to them, whereas they earned that wage Growth, Right. So it's the same thing with the industry. It's just like, oh, yeah, finally people are getting outdoors.
Okay, this is how it should be and how it always will be. And yeah, not so much.
Producer Dave
00:35:22.555 - 00:35:47.347
I was also thinking, you know, look, everyone. And probably maybe it's the effect of private equity into this, but everyone wants that hockey stick kind of growth from their brand.
And I think we should just make in the outdoor. We should or should just reserve. Hockey stick growth is for software technology, for tweener fads, and for fugly footwear. Those are really the only.
The brands that get to grow like a hockey stick. Everybody else needs to be more measured.
Colin True
00:35:47.411 - 00:35:49.011
We'll call that the Crocs Corollary.
Producer Dave
00:35:49.123 - 00:35:56.223
That's the Crocs Corollary. Those three tech. There's three sectors you can grow like a hockey stick. Otherwise, you better. You better stare.
Colin True
00:35:56.279 - 00:35:57.303
Get your gibbets ready.
Eoin Comerford
00:35:57.399 - 00:36:57.103
Well, you would think that one of the big learnings that should have come out of 2022 is, hey, what happens when actually demand meets or outstrips supply? Guess what? We actually get to sell product at full price. And that feels really good. And it's very profitable.
And we can pay our people and actually everyone's happy in that regard. But it's, It's. It's the constant chasing of growth that ultimately kills you and that kill the industry. Right.
Because I think the industry coming out of 22, you know, the greed glands were going because the lesson wasn't, oh, it was great that, you know, that demand outstripped supply and we sold some full price. It was, gosh darn it, if I only had, you know, 15 more kayaks and 12 more bikes in my store, I could have absolutely crushed it this year.
Even though I did crush it, I could have crushed it even more. And so it's that left wanting feeling.
Colin True
00:36:57.199 - 00:37:14.487
I guess, kind of last thing before we move into moving to our other topic. As you look at maybe these three bands, specifically Rumpel, Wolverine, Merrill, and Black diamond, how do you see this playing out for them?
Do you feel like this is going to really work for each other? Obviously, you said it's working already for Wolverine, but how do you see it all playing out in the next six to 18 months here?
Eoin Comerford
00:37:14.671 - 00:37:45.709
Yeah, I think a lot will come back around to your prior question about product. Right. So, okay, it's great that you are reestablishing the foundation, but now you still have to build back on that foundation.
And if all you're doing is bringing in less of the same old stuff, that you sold all along, you're really not going to get back into a growth mode because trying to reignite the growth engine without any increase in demand will get you right back to where you started. Right?
Colin True
00:37:45.797 - 00:37:46.189
Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:37:46.277 - 00:38:15.313
So to me, it's okay, this is good.
Strip back the product, strip back, you know, do the 80, 20 rule, strip out the garbage styles that really weren't selling, and we're just mucking everything up for everybody. But now what are we going to replace them with?
You know, what and what's, what's actually, what are people actually wanting and demanding in the marketplace and how can we meet that demand versus just producing the same old stuff or, you know, different color variants on the same old stuff?
Colin True
00:38:15.489 - 00:38:56.955
Well, the second thing we want to talk about is I've been hit up no less than six or seven times since the election by listeners hoping we'll do a tariff episode. And up until this last week, I was hesitant to pursue it. You know, a lot of campaign rhetoric, let's see what happens.
You know, kind of thing where we are.
And now, obviously, it's been announced that there's, you know, the incoming Trump administration will indeed put high tariffs in place with the US's three biggest trading partners in Canada, Mexico, and China. And it seems like a relevant time to crack open the tariff conversation. And these topics are why you are now part of our team here at the Rock fight.
So this will likely being a recurring topic as things play out. But as we sit here today, what are your thoughts on this incoming tariff policy and how it will impact the outdoor industry?
Eoin Comerford
00:38:57.895 - 00:42:56.405
Yeah, it creates so much uncertainty, quite frankly, about where this thing is going and how permanent it will be. Will it happen? Will the Trump administration follow through? Will they be able to?
I mean, I think they have a certain degree of executive power to do it, but beyond that, I think they will require some congressional acts.
And there's a lot of folks, I think, on both sides of the aisle that don't love this idea because it is ultimately going to be inflationary, more than likely for American workers and for American people.
So, yeah, it's super challenging because I think the last round of tariffs that Trump put into place were actually effective in slowing down China and Chinese imports into the us. And I think a lot of companies in the outdoor space really did look at at least diversifying their supply chain, if not totally moving out of China.
And so, you know, the beneficiary there was definitely Vietnam, but then even more, you know, emerging apparel manufacturers like Bangladesh, Pakistan, even Jordan, and areas like that where there was more favorable tariff elements. So now the question is, well, is everybody going to get hit with tariffs and what does that mean?
The other challenge is that quite frankly there's a lot of the problem with tariffs. It's sort of the rule of unintended consequences. Like as a prime example, one company that I'm familiar with is Ewer.
So Ewer is a small women's LED apparel brand and they actually, are they onshored. So supposedly the whole Trump administration is about, okay, we want to onshore manufacturing, create American jobs. So you brewer did this, right?
Mallory is the founder there. She said, gosh darn it, we're going to do this.
We're going to set up a sewing operation in Missoula, Montana, not exactly the center of the apparel industry. So she did all that hard work, but her core items use a Polar Tech fleece and she's paying 47% tariffs.
47, 47% tariffs on that fleece because guess what, Polar Tech won't give her access to the US made product, so she has to import it from China.
So, you know, similar story, you know, under the last Trump administration where they put these big tariffs on Chinese steel to help with the US steel industry. Guess what? That worked. You know, prices went up. The U.S. you know, people bought a lot more steel from U.S. manufacturers.
But the problem is, guess what? Steel is a material that goes into things like cars and dishwashers and everything else that are built in the US and so those prices went up, right?
And so, so, so then those people were hit, you know, from a profitability and from a sales perspective. So you know, there's, it's all very intertwined.
The other thing too, quite frankly is it's not like these countries are just going to sit on their hands and go, yeah, okay, yeah, 25, 40%, 60% tariffs, whatever it is, sure, that's fine, whatever you want to do. Usa they're going to either retaliate or and so that's going to hit U.S.
manufacturers, right, who are exporting goods or they may devalue their currency to offset the impact of tariffs. So it's a very, yeah, it's a tricky one.
Colin True
00:42:57.035 - 00:43:37.705
Yeah, these are big ships. To turn right to your point earlier, these are long lead time products and brands.
The way things come to market, it's not just a flip, a switch, even a ewer like you mentioned. I know it's a little bit of a different example, but that's a small brand, it's still months to make stuff.
And where you're going to get your stuff from and how you make it and where you ship it, all that stuff. So it's not a, none of this is simple and it's just creating a lot of chaos, I guess, to kind of put a bow on it.
If we're at a point now where we're all feeling confident the outdoor industry is entering in a healthier period, let's say, how does this become a wrench in the works for that? Does it kind of derail that? Does it concern you for the future of the industry, the short term future of the industry?
Eoin Comerford
00:43:38.405 - 00:46:02.423
It does, because I think we already have a bit of an affordability crisis within the industry around the products that we sell. And so I don't think that the outdoor consumer can absorb another hit. Right.
We had about, you know, I think on average about 20% price increases within the industry coming out of 22.
You know, with the supply chain shock and overall inflation and all the rest of it, you know, another 20% increase would really, really hurt and would further, I think, set the industry back in terms of being able to get more people outdoors and make product more accessible to more consumers. So I don't think that the consumer can take that.
So the industry is going to have to figure out either they're going to have to absorb it and it's not like the industry is rolling in profits these days or there'll be changes to supply chains.
I think that the challenge in a lot of ways is many of the production capacities that are needed around things like apparel or footwear or even tents, et cetera. A lot of that just doesn't exist anymore in the U.S.
i mean, yes, there are pockets of folks that are making stuff here in the US Primarily for military contracts. Right.
And so, yes, if you want to have a nice seam sealed Gore Tex jacket, there's like, I don't know, three places, three factories that could maybe make that product here in the US but they don't have boatloads of capacity. Right. To do that. And then you also don't have the skilled folks to work in those areas. I mean, these are skills that in many cases have been lost.
And so quite frankly, if you want the most beautifully produced seam sealed Gore Tex jacket in the world, you're probably going to China. Right? I mean, I know that that sounds antithetical to people that I go Chinese quality, yada, yada, but no, really, in this day and age.
And so even if the industry wanted to onshore and wanted to get back to the US And I'M sure that there are people that do that. Could be a decades long process to get to a place where that could happen.
Producer Dave
00:46:02.519 - 00:46:19.545
So how does a, if you were put on your specialty retail hat, what would you be doing to mitigate some of this? Either just risk or actual eventuality, things are going to get more expensive from brands like that. What would you do to maneuver?
Eoin Comerford
00:46:20.245 - 00:47:09.083
I would probably be looking at how I can. Because if brands are going to get more expensive and if I assume that my customer can't step up to that, yeah, I would be looking at other areas.
We talked about the whole used gear element and bringing that in as a way to have affordability within the store.
Maybe looking at Athleisure, which I think a lot of specialty retailers are already looking at, which typically has, you know, slightly lower price points than, you know, premium outdoor product. And so it's a little bit more accessible.
But yeah, looking at the overall mix of price points to where, you know, yes, I'm still going to carry obviously the really high end outdoor product, but I'm probably going to need to mix in some other elements that are still affordable to the majority of customers.
Producer Dave
00:47:09.259 - 00:47:15.735
At what point do you start considering your brand mix and looking for brands maybe made here?
Eoin Comerford
00:47:16.275 - 00:47:49.483
I think folks are already doing that to a degree and I think they should. Right, absolutely. We should support us manufactured product and I think that there's a customer for that.
I would say most studies though would say that from a consumer perspective, consumers will tell you that they value made in the usa, just like they'll tell you that they really value sustainably built product. But at the end of the day, those things are, you know, items like 5 and 6. On the list of reasons why they.
Colin True
00:47:49.499 - 00:47:55.187
Buy a product value in what makes you buy something are two different things. Exactly.
Producer Dave
00:47:55.251 - 00:47:55.643
Yeah.
Colin True
00:47:55.699 - 00:47:57.295
They value all sorts of stuff.
Eoin Comerford
00:47:57.635 - 00:48:04.705
Yeah. Consumers will tell you all these things they care about. But at the end of the day, right, it's like, right, it's brand, it's price, it's product.
Colin True
00:48:05.925 - 00:48:21.345
All right, well, that's Owen Comerford. He's the Rock Fights consigliere. You can follow him on LinkedIn. Right, we want to do that. You can see him if you're going to Ispo this week.
You can actually get his autograph. He'll be there in person. Run up, say hi, say I listened to you on the Rock fight. And where else? Anywhere else you want people to find your work?
Producer Dave
00:48:21.805 - 00:48:24.105
No, I think that that covers it. Really? Yeah.
Colin True
00:48:24.725 - 00:48:27.405
All right, man. Well, thanks as always for coming on. We'll we'll see you next week.
Producer Dave
00:48:27.445 - 00:48:27.741
Week.
Eoin Comerford
00:48:27.813 - 00:48:28.945
Okay, thanks, guys.
Colin True
00:48:30.525 - 00:50:06.795
Hey, you outdoor retailers, listen up. We know you're sick of it. You know you're sick of it. You're sick of it, aren't you?
Another sales rep walks in and they're showing off some flimsy forgettable apparel line that looks like it was meant for a mall. The so called outdoor brands, well, they're churning out gear that won't make it past the doors of a Costco come Saturday. You need something else.
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They make gear that's simple, light, strong, and made to last. And where do they make it? Right here in the usa.
Now, if you're thinking, wait, you mean Northwest Alpine's black spider hoodie made with polar tech power grid is sewn up in the States? Yeah, you heard that right. And if you're tired of black, don't worry. They've got colors, too. So here we are in a time when everything's uncertain.
Costs are going up, tariffs are looming, and old bloated brands are hiking prices. Northwest Alpine's here with American made gear ready to stock your shelves.
So get in touch by sending an email to infounpine.com nwalpine.com and set up a line showing today. Northwest Alpine made here for all the right reasons. All right, man, it's time for the party shot. Who's going first?
Producer Dave
00:50:07.575 - 00:52:36.065
I'll go first today. All right.
Yeah. Since we're, since we're in the brand world today, this week's parting shot is the Jaguar rebrand.
And for some of you that haven't been following this along, the classic British car brand, Jaguar, kind of stuffy, old British kind of classics, which is why some people love it, has completely rebranded themselves. New logo, new position, new consumer. Honestly, the rebrand reminds me and reminds many people of maybe the Zoolander 3.
It really is an over the top expression of kind of the, I don't know, the modernist art scene of London, if you will. And I guess my parting shot is not. There's two ways to look at it. Like, is the positioning a smart move and is the execution. Right.
And there's been a ton of people attacking its execution big time. I mean, it is a jolting jarring shift from where they. And then there's the positioning part.
It is no one near the way or it's in no way positioned to what the brand has been talking to for the last decades. So it is a massive shift in that regard. My parting shot is I think the positioning is. I get why they're doing it.
They're in a tough market with a high end product. They really need to radically redo something different. Different. I'm going to give them credit for that. I think it's execution.
Even the type of consumer that they're going after that could be really smart. But what they've done is a little parody like we'll have to see. They don't have the product to back it up right now.
So it feels even more jarring because you take this brand and applying it to their hunter green Jaguar, it just doesn't seem to go together. But I think the jury's out. Let's see what they do with it.
Or if they would come running back and this is a new Coke situation where they put all their time and effort into that and then have to retreat. Or what is it? What was the one later? The Gap. Right.
They did a repositioning with their logo and within a week had to to reinstate the old one and just burned millions of dollars of money. So we'll see if it's that. But they certainly got attention. They a lot of people talking about it both for and against and so good on them.
Colin True
00:52:36.605 - 00:52:39.845
So you're saying that they've already developed the Jaguar classic logo.
Producer Dave
00:52:39.925 - 00:52:42.581
Oh, I'm pretty sure that's exactly on its way. That's right.
Colin True
00:52:42.653 - 00:52:42.885
Right.
Producer Dave
00:52:42.925 - 00:52:53.321
It's going to. It's the collab with Tommy Hilfiger. Right. Or Ralph Lauren. You could kind of. The American Burberry would be the appropriate kind of apparel piece.
Right. Come on. All right.
Colin True
00:52:53.353 - 00:54:44.785
For my parting shot, I'm getting the back of retailers everywhere because we need to turn off the Christmas music. All right. It's low hanging fruit to start in on those who start playing Christmas tunes on November 1st.
And even though I would prefer a world where we would only listen to Christmas music on either Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. Excuse me. On both Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. I think that makes the most sense. I think that makes the age so exciting.
Two days we're listening to all these songs and it's fresh and fun.
I accept though the agreed to terms that Christmas music is officially allowed as soon as we see Santa Claus arrive at the end of Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade. That's when it's allowed. Don't start it before. I also don't think it should extend past Christmas Day.
But that's not the conversation I want to have today. I don't think that everyone working in every retail store should only listen to Christmas music for the next month. Right.
So last week and the day before Thanksgiving, I was in a grocery store and the Christmas music was on, which is a clear violation of the Macy's parade rule. But I digress. And there was someone working in the store who had already had enough of it. And now there's a long way to go for this person.
But it occurred to me in that moment, would anyone complain if they walked into that grocery store in December and it wasn't playing Christmas music? Every store that every person listening to this will walk into in the next 30 days will be playing Christmas music.
And, yes, that sets the mood for holiday shopping. But wouldn't it be nice if occasionally you got a break? And I'm not being a scrooge here. I genuinely like Christmas music. Christmas music.
It's hard to say that a lot of times in a row, but even though even the best of things could be too much sometimes, and the sanity of our retail workforce is at stake, because I speak from experience.
When it's December 22nd and some terrible consumers making your life a living hell in a packed store, and in the background, all you can hear is Bing Crosby telling you for the 13th time that day that mellicolickimaka is the thing to say on a bright Hawaiian Christmas Day, you might snap. All right, so let's pace ourselves with the Christmas tunes. That's my parting shot.
Producer Dave
00:54:45.365 - 00:54:49.665
Well, Colin, I just don't share your bleak worldview, but.
Colin True
00:54:50.205 - 00:54:52.785
Oh, you've had it on since Halloween. Is that what you're telling me, Dave?
Producer Dave
00:54:52.865 - 00:54:56.745
Just saying there's a place for Christmas music that isn't just two days.
Colin True
00:54:56.865 - 00:55:04.525
How great would that be? Christmas Eve. Oh, it's Christmas Eve. Put on the Christmas music. It'd be so great. And then 48 hours later, it's gone.
Producer Dave
00:55:06.745 - 00:55:11.385
Well, I do. I do wait till Christmas Eve to watch Rudolph. So we try to.
Colin True
00:55:11.425 - 00:55:11.801
Okay.
Producer Dave
00:55:11.873 - 00:55:15.085
We try to exercise some discipline.
Colin True
00:55:16.705 - 00:55:35.123
Well, we can wrap it up up there. The Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight llc, Our producer today. Producer David Karstad. Art direction provided by Sarah. I needed it yesterday.
Gensert. I'm Colin Schru. Thanks for listening. And here to take us out is Chris Demais. He's gonna sing the Rock Fight Fight song. Will see you next time.
Rock fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:55:35.179 - 00:55:42.595
Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight, Rock flight.
Colin True
00:55:42.715 - 00:55:43.497
Here we go.
Chris DeMakes
00:55:43.611 - 00:56:30.995
Welcome to the rock fight? Where we speak our truth? Slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree?
We talk about human powered outdoor activities and pic bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture, music, the latest movie reviews, Ideas that aim for the head? This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock flight, Rock flight, Rock fight? Welcome to the rock flight?
Rock fight, Rock fight? Welcome to the rock flight? Rock flight, Rock fight? Rock flight, Rock fight, Rock fight? Welcome to the rock fight? Rock fight? Rock fight.
Colin True
00:56:32.895 - 00:56:33.615
Rock ride.