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The Top 10 Outdoor Industry Rock Fights Of 2024

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Today on The Rock Fight (an outdoor podcast that aims for the head) Colin is joined by industry insider Eoin Comerford and Producer Dave to run down the top 10 outdoor industry rock fights from the past year.


Going from 10 to 1 they provide their updated thoughts on the most popular industry focused episodes of 2024 and make predictions about what to expect in the future.


This past year The Rock Fight explored trends and challenges within the outdoor industry, including topics like "zombie brands" and the impact of economic shifts on consumer purchasing habits.


The topics that dominated the outdoor industry news cycle highlighted the importance of authentic engagement and innovation for outdoor brands, while also looking at topics such as the growing trend of secondhand markets and their potential to reshape consumer behavior.


This year end episode offers a comprehensive look into the landscape of outdoor retail and the pivotal changes on the horizon. We are excited to continue to elevate The Rock Fight as your go to source for outdoor industry news and discourse in 2025!


Here is the full list along with links so you can go back and hear the original conversation:


10. Oct 28: Marmot: From Outdoor Pioneer To Zombie Brand?

9. Sep 2: Outside Inc Goes Social

8. May 6: Patagonia’s New Movie

7. Sep 23: Secondhand Websites & Upcycled Garments: Why Outdoor Brands Need To Do Better

6. Sep 30: Is A Consumer Shift Coming To The Outdoor Industry?

5. Aug 12: EMS Sells For A Song

4. May 27: REI’s Union Problem

3. Aug 1: Let People Try: Inclusion In The Outdoor Industry

2. Sep 16: Does The North Face Actually "Play Different"?

1. Rock Fight Breaks The News! Sep 9: Backcountry Acquired/Nov 13: Yeti To Sunset Mystery Ranch


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Episode Transcript

Colin True

00:00:00.240 - 00:02:32.218

For years, outdoor brands have shouted to the skies, each claiming their gear is better, tougher and smarter than the next. They bragged about seams and fabrics, about features you didn't need.


And when the world started caring about the planet, those same brands tried to have it both ways, making the same old stuff but slapping on a green label to soothe the conscience. But Livesyn isn't like the rest. Livesyn was born to help you strip it all down, to live with intention. Own less, live more.


It's a simple creed, but simplicity is what matters most. We've been timeless since before we even had a name. Lifson grew out of a deep hunger for freedom, a love for this earth and the people who walk it.


We don't obsess over the gear. We focus on the life the gear lets you live.


Retailers think on this how many brands do you carry that are cut from the same old cloth, filling racks with sameness? Couldn't your floor use something different?


A brand that doesn't just sell clothes but sells a way of being Lifts and gear is built to last, to be repaired, to stick with your customers for a lifetime of trails, peaks and adventures in the Ozarks. We have an honest, gritty sensibility with a sharp edge of style. It's what happens when the love of the land meets a modern streak.


And if you're wondering, Libsyn's founder, Andrew Gibbs Dabney, can explain it better than anyone. Look, here's the straight talk. We believe in Liveson enough to put our name on it. Send in your fall 25 preseason orders by January 15th.


Mention this podcast and you'll get the Rock Fight preseason special, a clean 2% off, stacked on top of Lipson's own preseason program. Discounts don't wait. Stock the brand that's burning hot in the outdoor world, the brand that's here for the long haul.


Be a Rockfighter, not just another retailer. Liveson. Own less, live more. Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree.


This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True.


It's Monday, and today we're going to talk about the top 10 outdoor industry rock fights of 2024 with Owen Comerford and producer Dave. But before we get to that, gotta ask you, have you subscribed to Rock Fight's weekly newsletter? If not, you're hearing us on Monday.


You still have time to get all that original Rock Fight content before the next one comes out tomorrow. On Tuesday, head to Rock Fight Co and click join the mailing list to sign up.


And if you're new around here, this is the first time you're listening to the End of the Year podcast. Subscribe to the Rock Fight. You want to hit follow on the podcast app you're listening to us on. Just hit that button, hit follow.


Really helps out the show. Really important for you to subscribe. It'd be great.


And and also make sure you come back on Wednesday where Justin Hausman and I are gonna run through the top 10 adventure y sort of rock fights of 2024. The more adventure topics that we talked about here on the show. But before we get into that, we gotta get through today's show.


So let's start the show.


Chris DeMakes

00:02:32.274 - 00:02:36.310

Welcome to the Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.


Colin True

00:02:39.250 - 00:02:41.630

You're listening to Rock Fight Radio.


RF Radio

00:02:42.370 - 00:03:10.298

A ball sock for old times. It's no ordinary sock. It does what what it says it does. Fit are socks marine. Oh, but they don't fall down. This sock fits better than your sock.


A funky shaped sock that's an elegant solution. A bunching in the toes, heel slippage and falling down at the ankle.


A sock with padded tint knit structures that achieve whole foot comfort that you can really feel like.


Producer Dave

00:03:10.354 - 00:03:10.906

Whoa.


RF Radio

00:03:11.018 - 00:03:42.750

A sock that acts like a base layer. A sock that's all about the base layer. A thermoregulating, moisture wicking, body forming base layer Fits as a sock that fits better than your sock.


Maybe even the best sock ever. It really could be fits a bull sock for old times. It's no ordinary sock. It does what it says it does. Fit, fit, fit, fit, fit, fit.


It really could be Fitz layer. It really could be Fitzpatrick.


Colin True

00:03:42.940 - 00:04:23.440

Welcome back to Rockvite Radio. I'm DJCT and that was Bold Sock, the newest track from Fitz.


Fitz has been knitting a hit since 2014 with their patented whole foot comfort approach to making fine gauge merino performance socks with their custom fit feel that's like nothing else. They make some of the best basics in the biz retailers. You only have two days left to get your pre order in by December 31st.


That's New Year's Eve and you'll get yourself free shipping. All right, let's get back to the show. All right, we're back with Rock Fights Castiglieri. Owen Comerford producer Dave is here. Happy holidays, boys.


We got one more to get through and we're almost there.


Eoin Comerford

00:04:24.620 - 00:04:30.920

We are, I think. When is the moratorium on Christmas music? Is it officially today or was that yesterday?


Colin True

00:04:31.340 - 00:04:36.280

I saw someone say 6pm on December 25th and I co signed that heartily.


Eoin Comerford

00:04:36.940 - 00:04:39.736

Yeah, good luck with that one. You're a hater.


Producer Dave

00:04:39.908 - 00:04:42.368

You're just a straight up holiday hater.


Colin True

00:04:42.544 - 00:04:47.248

I disagree. I think I am such an enthusiast that I want to appreciate it and its purest form.


Producer Dave

00:04:47.304 - 00:04:51.536

That is the grossest spin I have ever even tried to swallow. Nope.


Colin True

00:04:51.648 - 00:05:00.416

There's 12 songs that have been covered 82, 000 times. They get old after a while. Okay. Yeah, I know Owen's on my team.


Eoin Comerford

00:05:00.568 - 00:05:06.592

Other than the Pogues, as that's about the only one that I can keep coming back to.


Colin True

00:05:06.776 - 00:06:25.050

All right, guys, well, today we're gonna run through the top 10 stories that we covered here on the Rock Fight. It probably makes ask some questions, make some predictions.


Heading into 2025, I took a look at the list of our outdoor industry stories and these were the most listened to episodes by the Rock Fight listener base. And we're gonna go 10 through 1.


So I'm gonna do a little recap when the episode came out, what we talked about, and then toss it over to you guys for a little commentary or again, predictions about what we think may happen. So coming in at number 10, which actually I. I thought this was gonna be higher on the list, if I'm being honest.


We had a lot of engagement on this episode which, which came out on October 28, and it was our zombie brands conversation. Notably, we talked mostly about marmot. Marmot took a few strays from us this year. This was probably the biggest one.


On this episode we talked about sort of big and notable brands that are still around but aren't as relevant as they used to be.


Like I said, we got a lot of mileage out of the zombie brands thing this fall, and I don't think the concept of the zombie brand is going to go anywhere anytime soon as some of the bigger brands maintain a level of size from a revenue standpoint that they have to be talked about, but they also will probably continue to descend further into irrelevancy from a user and retailer perspective. So let me toss it over to you guys. I mean, what do you guys think about this?


You know, will some of the more notable zombie brands either come back, maybe die off in 2025? Will this conversation continue? Owen, what do you think?


Eoin Comerford

00:06:25.170 - 00:06:58.014

By the nature of being defined as a zombie brand, they will continue lumbering forward half dead. So I think the answer is no. Maybe some might join them.


I would say, though, the interesting thing for me is I've actually now heard the term zombie brand, Zombie atrobrand Multiple times from people I know in the industry. And maybe it's just I'm in the same echo chamber with all of you people. But. Yeah, so it's become part of the zeitgeist.


My new word of the year, Zeitgeist. Maybe Rock Fight is becoming part of the new outdoor zeitgeist.


Colin True

00:06:58.062 - 00:07:33.932

It is funny the way some people didn't quite get it too.


I got a lot of defenses for Kelty, which may be the prototypical zombie brand of like, you know, like a really relevant specialty outdoor brand that is now owned by. Was it XL owns them, I believe, and are sort of.


I'm sure the stuff they make is fine, but when's the last time you thought of Kelty and you know, they still make this incredible stuff, like. Yeah, I believe you that they do, but they're just. I mean, I throw Choco in the mix and they're still huge. Right? They're everywhere. But it's like.


Yeah, when did the last time you thought of Chaco? Dave, what do you think about the whole zombie brand thing as we head into 2025?


Producer Dave

00:07:34.036 - 00:08:13.868

Well, you know, I'm a fan of, of the zombie brand designation. Like Owen said, by, by, by sheer nature, they just don't go anywhere.


They're here, they're lasting, you know, and I think that sums up frankly a good percentage of our industry or any industry, you know, and really you can kind of parse between the IT brands and the stable brands and the zombie brands. You know, there are different kind of classifications and, and brands move in and out.


You know, if they've been around long enough, they can kind of hit all three at certain times. I mean, what is Keen? Where does that fit? Is it a knit brand?


Colin True

00:08:13.924 - 00:08:14.780

Keen is not a zombie.


Producer Dave

00:08:14.860 - 00:08:15.708

Is it a stable?


Eoin Comerford

00:08:15.804 - 00:08:16.060

No.


Producer Dave

00:08:16.100 - 00:08:17.280

Is it a zombie?


Colin True

00:08:17.700 - 00:08:19.468

But yeah, they're not a zombie brand.


Producer Dave

00:08:19.524 - 00:08:19.948

It's. Yeah.


Eoin Comerford

00:08:19.964 - 00:08:26.322

I mean, it's the pareto principle. Right. 20% of the brands are going to get 80% of the attention. Yeah, right.


Producer Dave

00:08:26.346 - 00:08:36.018

Yeah, right. And then they're fighting for all there and it's kind of like regulation. You just don't want to get sent down. Right.


And the Zombies kind of that classification.


Eoin Comerford

00:08:36.194 - 00:08:46.162

Okay. I think, I think Dave has just come up with a new. A new theme here. We're going to have a relegation.


We're going to have a relegation show as to who gets promoted. The Premier League.


Producer Dave

00:08:46.266 - 00:08:48.722

That's right. There you go.


Colin True

00:08:48.826 - 00:09:06.476

I guess the last thing on the Zombie is it's like, you know, what really puts any of these brands down I mean, like zombies, you can like, you know, quick shot to the head and they go away.


You know, you look at a brand like a K2 or I mean, even Marmot and the amount of times they change hands and it's just like there's always, someone's always going to see some level of upside in one of these brands and they kind of just keep going.


Eoin Comerford

00:09:06.628 - 00:09:14.940

But then there's there are the Vasques. Right. And that whole conversation about those that get truly relegated to the graveyard brands.


Producer Dave

00:09:15.100 - 00:09:41.968

Well, and it also speaks to brand value, you know, in terms of the brand strength. Right. These brands were once IT brands and it's the basis of that strength. Awesome. What keeps them around in terms of their product?


They're not innovating, they're not bringing things to the market. Doesn't mean that it's bad product, it means it's just, it's not going anywhere.


But this brand strength has kept it around longer than its expiration date.


Colin True

00:09:42.064 - 00:09:42.272

Right.


Eoin Comerford

00:09:42.296 - 00:09:48.946

I mean, like a controversy this year could be that Patagonia got relegated from IT brand to the vast middle.


Colin True

00:09:49.048 - 00:11:05.922

All right, well, we can spend all day talking about zombie brands. Let's move on to the number nine story number nine on September 2nd, which was outside Goes Social.


And on this episode, we reacted to Outside launching an integrated social media platform into the outside website and other apps that they own, like Gaia. At the time I thought this was not a great idea. I think it might be even worse now.


Yesterday I actually signed up for an account and spent some time playing around on the platform knowing we were going to have this conversation. It's pretty rough. You know, there's, it goes everything from like, you know, very single digit engagement to a few hundred pieces of user engagement.


But, you know, it just really made me appreciate how much work it really takes to create a good social media platform.


I mean, obviously the, you know, the big players in the space, they put a lot of time and money and energy and years into it and that, and that's why we all use them. So this just feels very out of the box.


But it kind of brought me to the point of like, it really feels like that may not matter because it seems like Outside is sort of in this sort of expand at all costs mode. Right. The festival is the one thing it looks like they're taking real care in how they grow it.


But there are rumors that persist that their goal is to continue to add subscriptions to Outside plus so that they can achieve a certain valuation. And people are talking about the company Going public. So I guess the question for you guys, you know, will outside announce its IPO in 2025?


Eoin Comerford

00:11:06.026 - 00:12:19.242

Personally, I don't think so because they don't have that traction yet. Think back to the original investment thesis behind Outside. They wanted to become really the media giant of the outdoor industry.


And back then, I think it was 21, that it was all kind of coming together. That's when they bought Outside. At that point, media companies were sort of, I guess maybe at their zenith relative to valuations.


You had BuzzFeed, for example, go public that year at a $1.5 billion valuation. How much is BuzzFeed worth today? About $110 million. So they've lost, I would have thought lower, but they've lost over 90% of their value.


Same thing with Vice News. Vice news was 5.7 billion at 1 point, sold in bankruptcy last year for 350 million, again more than 90% off from its high.


So really they're struggling to find that, you know, what is that anchor that they can hook onto relative to a big valuation driver? Subscriptions and social media obviously drive way higher valuation than being the media whatever, of whatever. So I think that's a factor.


Colin True

00:12:19.386 - 00:12:52.080

I think that's kind of what led me to the question is it just seems like they add map my, obviously Gaia, you know, all of these sort of platforms, you know, they continue to, you know, bring these different solutions to try and expand their presence in these, in the community, obviously the festival to a certain degree, you know, and so I think there's some credence to maybe what their goals are.


But I think you make a really good point is like, even if they have a more maybe stable base or, or, you know, a stable of products, you know, can they achieve that sort of super high level, like billion dollar valuation? I don't think that's going to be tough.


Eoin Comerford

00:12:52.900 - 00:12:54.732

It is going back to, kind of.


Producer Dave

00:12:54.836 - 00:14:12.266

Going back to what Owen was talking about, though. You know, the trends among niche media like news media, which is essentially what they are, is not great.


So they've done everything they can to shift to pivot from being just a niche media to this broader technology social platform, what you want to call it. So I think that is the play for sure. But it does bring in two new massive challenges of, you know, does your platform usable?


Is the interface seamless like that? Now you're a technology company, that's gotta be primary and it's not primary. Secondly, you know, in terms of.


And are people, let's call it user satisfaction. I Mean, that's always, you know, are you appealing to your customer?


But, man, it's really evident on a, on a social platform whether they're, they're not. They're either there or they're not. So they're either engaged and liking it or they're not. And there's no middle ground.


And I think that's gonna be their issue now that they, they've traded one set of problems for new ones. And I don't know if they're necessarily shaped to deal with those problems.


Like we said, I still think it's the right thing to do to figure out what that balance of content and platform is in this new age to create a walled garden as we talk about, or this ecosystem.


Colin True

00:14:12.378 - 00:14:57.276

But yeah, the social platform was not a great move from a strategy or a content perspective. I think adding map my was probably a really good move by them. Right? Like, that is an, you know, an established, mature platform that people use.


You're going to get a ton of boosts in subscribers of people who aren't going to abandon you to go to slot them right alongside of Gaia.


You have all these different options, a little more probably stable versus, like, hey, let's build our own social media platforms and look, that could, it could work out. I just, I think you're right. You're making. They have the, the, the advantage they have is like, who's their, who's their competitor?


Like, who's going to do what they're doing before they will? And like, you know, it would have to be somebody probably from outside the outdoor industry who really wanted to try it inside the outdoor industry.


And who's that going to be?


Eoin Comerford

00:14:57.348 - 00:16:02.158

Also, how do you also build a whole set of benefits for being a subscriber where it isn't just you get access to special content, let's say online, do you get access to backstage at the outdoor fest or, or whatever special, you know, special access on map my. All these other things. So you bundle all these things together.


Maybe you get, maybe there's a founder's card type of approach where you get all these special deals and discounts and offers and access to all these outdoor things that you wouldn't otherwise get. So I think if they can build all that value together, they might have something.


I think actually the outside festival may be a big part of the, the piece because they're obviously only serving one market or one region by being in Colorado that you could see an outdoor fest in the Northeast, in the Southwest, Pacific Northwest, and a lot of those same bands would play or different bands and local bands. But bringing outside people together in that kind of a format could be really interesting on a national basis. Yeah.


Colin True

00:16:02.174 - 00:16:09.538

If you were betting on the future of the outside festival or one of these trade shows that we talk so much about, like, where are you putting.


Eoin Comerford

00:16:09.554 - 00:16:12.434

Your money Outside festival? It's about the consumer.


Colin True

00:16:12.482 - 00:17:01.006

Yeah. 100. Yeah, 100 times out of 100. Right. All right. Number eight on the list was on May 6th, and this was Patagonia's new movie.


I may talk about this episode on Wednesday with Justin Houseman, because a lot of that episode was about some Everest news and some other things that we talked about. But in that episode, I also gave my review of Shit Thropocene, which was the Patagonia movie that put them.


That they put out right around the same time as they launched their Fashion is None of Our Business campaign. And I wanted to use this to kind of get a temperature check on Patagonia from both of you.


I mean, I think there's still this sort of universally accepted leader brand in our space and most relevant brand in the outdoor space.


But after our conversations the past couple of weeks about up and coming brands like Livesyn and all the direct to consumer brands we covered last week, I mean, you think Patagonia, can they maintain that top dog status? I mean, do you feel like they're vulnerable at this point? Owen, what do you think?


Eoin Comerford

00:17:01.158 - 00:17:34.316

Yes, I do think they're vulnerable. Their sustainability bonafides obviously are unmatched and I think a lot of brands are very envious of that.


And they try to do things around sustainability, but you can't out Patagonia. Patagonia in many, many cases. But the problem is innovation. Innovation is just lacking at Patagonia. What was their last big product line?


Nanopuff, and that was introduced in 2009. I looked it up 15 years ago.


Colin True

00:17:34.388 - 00:17:41.884

Yeah. And then they did Nano Air. But I mean, even then that was not like that, you know. Yeah, I mean, you're right. It's nothing. You're right.


Eoin Comerford

00:17:41.972 - 00:18:09.158

Right. So part of the whole rationale behind Patagonia is, hey, we want to bring out product. And yes, we want it to be. We're not in the fashion business. We.


We're not going to just keep churning colors and styles and all that stuff. Great.


But if you work off of this thought process that by us selling a product, it's better than somebody buying something else, shouldn't you be competing so that you are providing alternatives to people who are being innovative and putting new product.


Producer Dave

00:18:09.214 - 00:18:25.792

Out into the Market I think you hit it right on, right on the head. That lack of innovation means that they're a lifestyle company and a lifestyle company. So they're just the latest L.L. bean or Eddie Bauer.


And that's no, no, no disrespect in that sense.


Colin True

00:18:25.936 - 00:18:27.776

They told me that fashion is none of their business.


Producer Dave

00:18:27.848 - 00:19:43.302

Right. Well those brands have been operating on that premise for a long time. So I think that they've got a look and, and look.


This all came from that kind of video that they put out and you know again, attempt at, attempt at humor and you know, oh, that was so bad. The irony of selling, of talking about anti consumption with a 45 minute ad, I take a little bit different. I give them kudos for bravery.


That's tough. Humor is hard. Not taking yourself so seriously is like that's. I still think that's the right way.


Now they're gonna, customer base is gonna be so polarized by that. Half of their customer is just humorless at their core and so they're just not gonna find it funny at all, you know.


And then the other half are just fans that are gonna love it. And I fall somewhere in between there. I like. Good on you for trying that. I think keep trying stuff.


I think I would like to see more of that because just even the levity because everything they do is so documentary and non fiction. Again, great part of the brand. That doesn't mean that there's not room to have some fun and to, to not be so, so darn serious.


I mean it's kind of like their color palette. It's the same thing over and over and over.


I'd like to see a little bit, something a little bit different, a little bit unique innovation if you will. But yeah, interesting question for sure.


Colin True

00:19:43.406 - 00:20:37.380

All right, next story was on September 23rd we talked about secondhand websites around here that caused quite a stir because we had a, we had, we had a reaction to a flur branded recommerce sites that launched this past saw.


There was this week or two where we saw, I think it was Fjallraven Jones and Flylo launch secondhand shops while Codepoxy launched an upcycled collection. This is another rock fight where I sort of shifted my position from where I started. I admit it.


I think there's a bit of a box checky vibe to the amount of recommerce sites launching and I'd prefer to see sort of an agreed to strategy that benefits the consumer when it comes to the outdoor industry and secondhand.


However, you Know, I've been convinced by folks like, you know, Aaron over at Gear Trade and folks like that who that the more brands participating in this kind of shoves us in the right direction.


So throwing it out to you guys, what do you think we can and what do you think we should expect as it pertains to secondhand in 2025 for the outdoor industry? Owen, what do you think?


Eoin Comerford

00:20:37.500 - 00:21:56.256

Hopeful, I guess. I don't know if it'll happen, but I'm hopeful that people will really take this more seriously as a business and not as a sustainability initiative.


A business initiative, I. E.


Actually using used gear to attract and retain customers, specifically younger customers who are maybe priced out of being able to buy new gear and who are buying Shein and Temu and all this disposable crap. Who could actually get into and experience high quality outdoor gear through the used market and then potentially move to new.


Who knows, maybe they stay in used. That's great too.


And to me the differentiator is whether the brand has done the whole peer to peer network where they're not touching anything and it's just some separate part of the site that nobody ever sees. That's to me is you've checked a box. Please go away.


You don't really have a used gear business if you're actually in the business where you're trying to drive sales of that, promoting it throughout your site, promoting it in the onboarding funnel on the product page.


Working with folks like Aaron at Geartrade where there's an actual marketplace for used gear that to me is real used gear businesses and that's the way the industry needs to go.


Producer Dave

00:21:56.328 - 00:22:48.222

Yeah, I think you just hit it in terms of it's the business model. I love the idea that it's an entryway into brands for people. I think that makes a lot of sense and really could push that as a model.


Frankly, I think it's no different than 30 years ago. The branded store was seen as the death of the retail partner. Right. We can't have both.


And sure enough, no, they actually helped retail sales or E commerce is going to wipe away in real life. Like it's just each one kind of. We see the, you know, what's not going to work is kind of. But then it ends up enlarging the ecosystem.


I think this is just another avenue in that kind of vein that we need to adopt and there might be some overlap at first. Maybe it's not perfectly efficient, especially from the back end, but more the merrier.


We've got to get in there and just change the way we're doing business for sure.


Colin True

00:22:48.406 - 00:23:39.310

Next up we had on September 30th. The episode was titled is there a Consumer Shift coming to the Outdoor Industry?


This episode contains listener responses to the second hand website episode that we just spoke about.


Mostly this episode is where we discuss the quote by a large outdoor retailer CEO who spoke to a consultant and suggested that a notable shift in consumer behavior is on the horizon.


The CEO noted that consumers are now more price conscious than ever before and much more inclined to pursue bargain or discounted products, even at the risk of sacrificing quality. We inferred in that episode that this quote probably came from rei and this is not the last time REI will come up during this episode.


But aside from them, do we agree that a shift is coming? Is it here? Is the expansion of Sierra proof of this? Will the coming tariffs exacerbate this? What do we think about this mindset?


Owen, let's start with you.


Eoin Comerford

00:23:39.480 - 00:24:33.794

Oh, it's here, it's been here. Let's be honest. Consumers are going to take whatever discounts you're going to throw their way.


The question is how desperate are we as an industry to be needing discounts to prime the pump? Right? So that's a big part of it.


Also, by the way, if you look at circana data, the average price of the industry has increased 20% since before COVID Right.


So we have all of this inflation at the same time that people actually have, you know, shrinking amounts of credit available, more inflation elsewhere and more, you know, more essentials that they have to buy so they don't have the buying power that they used to have. And the stuff's more expensive. So the time is here, the time is now.


Obviously, with the big inventory glut, people have used discounts to push that inventory. Can we get away from that in the future? I don't know. It's tough.


Colin True

00:24:33.922 - 00:24:48.626

We talked a couple weeks about Academy and folks like that. Why do you think maybe they're not doing better if that's the case? I know they've had not quite as good a run as a dick's.


Or do you think that just that time is coming when they will be doing better because of this specifically?


Eoin Comerford

00:24:48.818 - 00:25:40.794

It's had to be specifically just because Two reasons. One is their customer is at that lower end of the household income bracket and so they have even less disposable income.


So that's really the big issue. The second is that they're not getting the hot brands that are driving the business that is there and I think so.


The interesting thing is actually that the OIA just released their sort of thoughts for the year end literally within the last week or so.


And quoting from their report, it said one notable trend is a shift from high ticket outdoor gear such as kayaks and camping equipment to more casual and affordable products. Consumers are prioritizing items like road running shoes, casual apparel and insulated cups.


These products cater to the growing number of casual outdoor participants who enjoy activities like hiking, biking or park visits, but don't require specialized gear. So that's what our own industry association is saying.


Colin True

00:25:40.882 - 00:25:54.570

But has that been the case for a long time? I feel like those have always been the drivers, like the last couple decades even, right?


I mean, I feel like that's what you would see when you go to trade shows and whether people would expand into these other lines or have these extra things. It's running shoes, casual apparel and accessories.


Eoin Comerford

00:25:54.730 - 00:25:57.030

It's accelerated, I would say, since COVID.


Colin True

00:25:57.570 - 00:26:08.158

Well, guys, I got some important news. The fact is we're halfway through this list, which means, you know, you know what that means, right? What does it mean for our weekly segment?


It means it's time.


Eoin Comerford

00:26:08.214 - 00:26:08.590

Thank you.


Colin True

00:26:08.630 - 00:26:09.294

Thank you, Owen.


Producer Dave

00:26:09.342 - 00:26:10.250

Is there more?


Colin True

00:26:11.350 - 00:26:33.544

It's time for a weekly segment to make sure you're getting more out of the outdoors.


It's time for More with Thermore and I like to think we saved our best for last at the end of the year here because today on More with Thermore, we're featuring a truly unique jacket from a unique brand. I'm talking about 66 North's Drown Gar. Great name. Sorry, I think that's a.


That's maybe my favorite product name I've said on this podcast in 2024, the Drown Guard.


Eoin Comerford

00:26:33.672 - 00:26:41.352

Most of 66 North's products live on an island in, in the North Atlantic and it's called the Drown Gar. Yikes.


Colin True

00:26:41.496 - 00:26:47.752

Yeah, well, actually it's a pronunciation guide. On their website. It's pronounced, it's written Drangar, but it's pronounced drowngar.


Producer Dave

00:26:47.816 - 00:26:55.810

Most of their products could serve as adventure titles for the the Dungeon Masters D and D Night and Tuesday at the game shop. There's no doubt about.


Colin True

00:26:55.850 - 00:26:59.762

Well, this is a jacket. If you were the Dungeon Master and you had a long game, it's outside you want to wear.


Producer Dave

00:26:59.826 - 00:27:01.634

Welcome to the Drown Guard, which is.


Colin True

00:27:01.642 - 00:28:25.250

A vegan puffer, by the way.


It looks like a down coat, but it's powered by 640 fill power grams of Thermore Eco down and like we've told you before, Eco down is the sustainable and vegan alternative to down feathers. It's a synthetic insulation made from 100% post consumer plastic bottles. And in the case of Icelandic brand 66 North's Drowngar, this is the coat.


Sorry, you got to say it that way. This is a coat that you want to wear to keep you warm on cold, cold days.


Because whether it's making amazing new garments or staying warm and safe out on the trail, you can do more with Thermore. All right, let's get back into the list here with August 12, 2024. We talked about EMS sells for a song.


And on this episode, producer Dave and I talked about the bankruptcy sale of Eastern Mountain Sports to mountain Warehous for $10 million, two years after it had sold for $70 million.


And now Eastern Mountain Sports is down to seven stores, which is notable like we talked about at the time, because it leaves large swaths of New England and the Mid Atlantic without an outdoor specialty presence.


So, you know, this is a, a funny one because of the history of Eastern Mountain Sports and the, I think it was like eight or nine times it has changed hands. You know, it's just the, the, the cat that continues to survive.


What predictions do we have for either EMS going forward with their new owner or even who may fill those gaps can create it by shrinking that chain to seven doors. What do you think, Owen?


Eoin Comerford

00:28:25.750 - 00:30:21.014

So perhaps in response to the conversation on this very podcast where we wondered, are they going to move towards a mansion warehouse which is much more of a value play, almost 100% private brand, yada yada, were they going to basically take EMS and make it the North American Mountain Warehouse?


Perhaps in response to that, they actually came out with a press release and they said this is the founder, Mark Neil said, we plan to retain the iconic EMS brand, which has a great heritage in DNA and resonates with huge numbers of long standing customers, we will also continue to work with the highest quality and best known outdoor brands in the world to stabilize and then grow the business. So they're saying A we're keeping EMS and B, we are looking to keep other brands. So that's. So they've answered that question.


They also went on to say that they plan to expand in the US and bring EMS to Canada and Europe, which I thought was interesting. So that tells me that they're viewing EMS as like a level above perhaps Mountain Warehouse.


So Mountain Warehouse is more the entry level, all private label retailer. And then they would have EMS that maybe sells Some Mountain Warehouse maybe sells EMS private brand, but is the more premium version.


So I thought that was fun. They also revealed that the acquired seven EMS stores and the website in the prior year brought in $27 million. So chunk of change. Interesting.


And then also they recently announced that their revenues for their prior fiscal year, which ended at the end of February of this year, $510 million. So that's nothing to sneeze at for Mountain warehouse with Prof. 35 million. So, you know, I mean, given.


Given where everyone else is in the industry, they're apparently doing something right.


Colin True

00:30:21.102 - 00:30:48.878

Listen, I, I, like I told you guys before, I am rooting for ems. I loved ems.


I would love to see them come back in a way and, and really be in a healthy way and have like, you know, real, real adults here running the show and get it to where obviously the upside's always been there. I mean, that's a really good point.


If there was ever a time to kill the EMS brand and rebrand it, Mountain Warehouse, which is a clearly proven brand name in the retail space, this would have been it. And they see the value. So, you know, my fingers are crossed here for sure.


Eoin Comerford

00:30:48.934 - 00:31:12.328

The other piece that was buried in this release was the fact that Mountain Warehouse's online business, which includes the Mountain Warehouse Marketplace, now is a third of its revenue. So they've figured out the E. Comm piece too, and the Marketplace speech, which was something that we talked about around backcountry.


So interesting company. It's definitely worth learning more about.


Colin True

00:31:12.464 - 00:31:42.616

Next up on May 27, REI's union problem.


This episode featured a conversation that Justin Hausman and I had with Bryce Covert, who's a journalist and wrote about the ongoing REI union drama for Adventure Journal.


Last week, the REI union Instagram feed was posting about labor issues in REI factories, and that group doesn't seem to be laying off our most visible retailer that we have. Do we think in 2025 that any of these issues presented by REI's union will metastasize, so to speak, in the upcoming year?


Eoin Comerford

00:31:42.688 - 00:32:19.978

I would say probably not.


Retail chains are just notoriously hard to organize for labor unions because they have very high turnover and you really have to have a pretty stable workforce because these union campaigns can take years potentially, to bring to a vote in realization, and then after that, with all the delaying tactics, et cetera, maybe years more for an actual negotiated bargaining. So I would say no, it's probably going to remain limited to a number of small flagship stores within the chain.


Colin True

00:32:20.154 - 00:32:48.480

Number three on the list on August first we had the episode Let People Try with my guest was Theresa Baker.


And coming up to last week's parting shot by you, Owen, which directly referenced Theresa, we have the conversation that Teresa and I had about poor efforts being made to truly create change in our industry.


So, Owen, your parting shot was about how our industry will get left behind if we don't figure out what to do about our overly white and male problem. I guess I would ask you, if you went back into the CEO chair today, what would you do? What is the path here to that?


Eoin Comerford

00:32:49.420 - 00:34:18.262

Continue down the path that I had been on with Teresa in getting the oda, the Outdoor Diversity alliance, to a new level within the industry. My vision would be that the ODA becomes similar to the Conservation Alliance.


So to those that aren't familiar, the Conservation alliance funded by the outdoor industry and all those funds really go into, or most of them go into a pool where there are then grants that are given out to conservation efforts across the country, like buying up land or helping to conserve existing areas of the country.


So the thought would be if we can get enough brands more than the 10ish or so that are there today, quite frankly, let's say we had 100 outdoor brands that were involved now, we would have a pool of funds as an industry that we can invest in the grassroots organizations that are really doing the work. Because there are a bunch of amazing grassroots organizations that are trying to drive inclusivity within the industry.


This isn't something that we should be doing brand by brand or store by store necessarily. This is stuff that has to happen within these communities themselves.


The problem is most of these grassroots organizations are always struggling for funding. And if a brand comes along, it's very transactional. It's like, I'll give you this $5,000 to do this one thing.


So you get this one social media post and do this next thing. Whereas these, they need ongoing funding, they need ongoing support, not this sort of transactional approach.


So that was really the vision would be to get ODA to that level.


Producer Dave

00:34:18.366 - 00:34:54.910

You know, this is one of those issues where our industry gets to put its money where its mouth is. And if we really do see ourselves as different from other industries, you know, then this is a place where that to show up in a big way.


You know, obviously sustainability is another one of those issues. And I do think that the industry overall does demonstrate levels of interest beyond others. Doesn't mean it's perfect.


We talk a lot about what's not right, but that doesn't mean that it's still not trying to get there in a faster way. But this is another one where it's time to step up and really show ourselves to be the industry that we see we want to be.


Colin True

00:34:55.240 - 00:35:15.920

Well, I know. I think you make a good point. The Conservation alliance is the best comp here. Right?


Because that was the, you know, who was back in again, you know, the heyday of outdoor retailer or whatever. It's like the Conservation alliance was a presence. Anyone who was, anyone who had the resources, they were a member of the Conservation Alliance.


Right. And I'm sure that is still the case. So, you know, how do we replicate that on this front? Because it is equally important.


Eoin Comerford

00:35:16.040 - 00:35:16.848

Yeah, absolutely.


Colin True

00:35:16.944 - 00:35:47.116

All right, home stretch here, guys. Last two. First up, number two on the list, September 16th, the North Face outdoor brand messaging.


And this episode, we covered our reaction to the North Faces we play different video campaign, which is funnily. Funnily enough, we forgot all about the last couple of months as we were talking about the North Face collaboration with skims.


And you know, as I'm defending that sort of the fashion collaboration is like, oh, yeah, it was only in September that you guys were telling us how hardcore you were with your new marketing campaign. So that's pretty funny. But I want to ask you guys.


Eoin Comerford

00:35:47.188 - 00:35:54.834

It'S like deposits and, you know, it's like debits and credits, right? So we're investing in the hardcore bucket and then we get to withdraw from the hardcore bucket.


Colin True

00:35:54.962 - 00:36:03.778

So, you know, that's the case. I think we are making. When I was take the skims piece out of it. If it's like, why are you guys. The North Face has always played this game. Look, what.


Producer Dave

00:36:03.834 - 00:36:11.070

I'm sorry, the tagline was we play different. Okay? And they just continued that. They did not stray from that at all.


Colin True

00:36:11.370 - 00:36:17.138

And you know, nude puffy, you know, that whole thing, that's different. It all works.


Producer Dave

00:36:17.234 - 00:36:22.370

That's right. That's exactly right. Zero scores on sustainability ratings. That is different than what I said.


Colin True

00:36:22.410 - 00:36:23.138

That is different.


Producer Dave

00:36:23.274 - 00:36:25.726

Right, but did not the outdoor industry zigs?


Colin True

00:36:25.758 - 00:36:26.302

We zag.


Producer Dave

00:36:26.366 - 00:36:27.930

That's right. That's right.


Colin True

00:36:30.550 - 00:36:49.854

No, but I am curious. Like this as an example of that was all the talk around that campaign. Are we rich?


Are we reaching a tipping point with the old school hardcore messaging where it just won't work anymore?


I mean, you think there's always going to be room for broad action sport marketing campaign or is it going to increasingly only play to the our demographic, the older demographic.


Producer Dave

00:36:49.982 - 00:38:11.852

Look, I don't think we do it enough. I think we've gone the other.


I think some of our industry problems are related to the fact that we don't sell the dream, that we don't provide inspiration as much as we pride all these other checkbox kind of issues. Right.


Just because you're a lifestyle doesn't mean that you can't sell inspiration as to what really could be used for and what people do in the extreme, the edges. We don't watch shows in the sense just to see the everyday.


I mean we do in some regards but it's like no, the selling the dream is important part of our industry and, and you know, Nike held up entire sports on its back over the last 30 years because it devoted dream inspiring marketing campaigns. Not just around an athlete, but around the sport that they play they participated in. And if we don't do that, why would people get excited about it?


They need media, we need media. We need things like this in our culture to tell us and tell others kind of what we do and why it's important.


So I think it's more, more inspirational messaging is what's needed along with the other types of messages. Otherwise we're just getting into that transactional track trap. It's just like this. All this is, is buy this.


So that look at, look at your social feed. How many ads do you get are just buy, buy, buy, buy, buy. How about just step back for a second and give me a reason to want to believe. Right. Frankly.


And I think that's what they were doing with that piece.


Eoin Comerford

00:38:11.966 - 00:38:59.100

I would agree with Dave on this that you do want to have some aspirational inspirational marketing. You really do. And you know, I was thinking to myself is that just sort of the 50 something person's view of the world?


But then I think back to Dope Snow, which was a brand we covered last week and I got into their social media feed, right? 1.5 million followers on Instagram and just a ton of likes and comments and whatever. And it's all basically people out on snowboards doing cool shit.


I mean that's basically. That's the feed I just described it.


People on snowboards doing cool shit, backflips, all this stuff that's great and people love it and that's that younger audience. So yeah, inspire people. People want to engage with that kind of stuff.


Producer Dave

00:38:59.180 - 00:39:58.176

It's the younger audience and it's classic action sport. I mean if you want to take. Go back to that old.


The beginnings in the 90s of this we had media devoted essentially to sequence photography of just to the shot shot Shot, Shot. Shot of the jump or the, you know, or whatever. The trick was like, that was the world.


And that's actually what denoted whether something was kind of core to the sport or not. Did a brand participate in essentially just an action shot with a logo attached to it and maybe a product off to the side that. And that.


That needs to be a part of the, you know, kind of defining what is we do in this world.


Now we can improve on showing who does it and what types of people can be involved and where do we do it does have to be always the always that ultra inspirational location. No, it doesn't. But you need to show what it takes to be a hiker or a kayaker or a climber. Right, just. Or a runner. Like.


Yeah, that sell the sport, sell what it is.


Colin True

00:39:58.248 - 00:40:25.744

And no one has straddled the line on this since the beginning, since the 90s than the North Face. This is why they can do the skims collaboration and they can put this out and all of us will pontificate.


The inside baseball people will be like, oh, they're not hardcore. Oh, they're too the blah, blah, blah. At the end of the day, they're still the North Face.


And they have established the way to do both of these things best because they've got Kim Kardashian and Alex Honnold doing, you know, working for him right at the end of the day. I mean, they might be working a little more for Kim Kardashian at this point, but you get. You get my meaning.


Producer Dave

00:40:25.792 - 00:40:28.224

Can we put them together in one spot? That would be.


Colin True

00:40:28.312 - 00:40:35.872

I would love that. Let's see that video. They would never. That's actually. That'd be dumb. Keep those two separate. Just church and state. Keep it separate.


Producer Dave

00:40:35.936 - 00:40:36.128

Yeah.


Eoin Comerford

00:40:36.144 - 00:40:38.816

Have you ever seen them together? Is that a coincidence?


Producer Dave

00:40:38.928 - 00:40:41.740

Oh, I see, I see.


Eoin Comerford

00:40:42.040 - 00:40:42.720

Okay.


Colin True

00:40:42.800 - 00:40:44.980

Alex Arnold secretly owns skits.


Eoin Comerford

00:40:45.700 - 00:41:22.114

So back to my Moose Jaw days, one of our core values was be notable. And I think that is the key with marketing is it doesn't all have to be today's point.


You know, often some crazy place, but at least have a point of view. Make me think, make me engage. And I may not agree with you. I don't agree with the skims thing, but it made me think about it.


Even the we play different thing. The photography was great.


You could argue with the script that it was a little bit overwrought, but it made you think and go, oh, should they be doing this? Shouldn't they be doing this? At least it made me think, all.


Colin True

00:41:22.122 - 00:42:06.768

Right, we Made it to number one. And we have two entries actually at number one and number one, the first one. September 9th, the backcountry acquisition that we talked about.


And November 13th, the Mystery Ranch Yeti debacle. I guess basically the subcategory is here. Rock fight breaks the news.


We're like Adrian Wojorowski around here, just constantly showering with our phones and waiting for our sources to come through with the biggest stories. We broke news twice this year about the stories themselves. By all accounts, starting with backcountry. It's rough times in Park City.


I've been hearing from some folks Backcountry's new owner is working to integrate the retailer into their world. Any predictions regarding backcountry or hopes for backcountry as we look ahead? What do we think we're going to see out of Backcountry?


Eoin Comerford

00:42:06.894 - 00:43:05.170

From what I've heard, their sales are down anywhere from 30 to 40% from their high. But even at that point, there's still a major player online, so they've got a lot of scale.


What we're seeing right now though is a new owner that is really trying to cut the cash burn because they've loaded it up with debt as part of the buyout. Right. So there's a lot of debt. They need to cut that cash and start paying some checks.


So unfortunately that's meant a number of people losing their jobs, which obviously sucks. It sounds like they've cut the private brand team. I don't know. I think that means they're cutting the whole private brand strategy.


That was a little ill fated to begin with and maybe getting back to basics in terms of E Commerce. And I'm still waiting on the E Commerce marketplace that I think they're going to launch. I, I still say that's coming.


We'll see if I'm right or wrong on that one. But yeah, the one thing that they haven't changed is the discounts.


Producer Dave

00:43:05.250 - 00:43:05.554

Wow.


Eoin Comerford

00:43:05.602 - 00:43:13.554

I mean they, I was tracking it a little bit. This fourth quarter they had seven different 20% off promos just in Q4.


Producer Dave

00:43:13.642 - 00:43:18.150

Do you think that's about inventory or about flow?


Eoin Comerford

00:43:18.650 - 00:43:42.042

Well, I think it's sales cash flow. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean they probably also had inventory too. The two are aligned. But yeah, they need cash flow is what they need.


And there's no way that it was MAP compliant unless I don't know what brands were included or excluded, but yikes, it was. Every four or five days they would pop another three day promo.


Colin True

00:43:42.106 - 00:44:02.862

Yeah. The reason why I immediately disagreed on inventory and it makes sense if it's both.


But I got to see the backcountry store at the Grove in LA a couple of weeks ago. Beautiful store, Beautiful store. But all I heard were your words. Oh. In my ear. Like, even if they hadn't been acquired, like, who approved this?


I can only. That's that mall. And where that mall is, I mean.


Producer Dave

00:44:02.886 - 00:44:05.806

I don't know what's the money?


Colin True

00:44:05.878 - 00:44:15.970

I mean, I can't. There's no outdoor brand or specialty retailer or retailer that we talk about that should have a presence in that mall. Makes sense.


Producer Dave

00:44:16.310 - 00:44:16.638

Yeah.


Colin True

00:44:16.654 - 00:44:28.110

And I don't know why it's even still open. I figured that would have been stop number one on the work, the, the Slash and Burn tour. Right. Just like close that thing.


But I guess they're probably beholden to their lease and they have to like try and burn through the inventory.


Eoin Comerford

00:44:28.450 - 00:44:41.002

Yeah.


I think that the challenge that they have is the people that are stopping by and expecting to see a bunch of Patagonia and North Face and what have you, it's not there. It's a bunch of backcountry stuff.


Colin True

00:44:41.146 - 00:44:43.514

So there's a lot, there's a lot of that.


Eoin Comerford

00:44:43.602 - 00:44:57.140

Yeah. But I think that's going to change.


I would imagine that if they are forced to keep these leases, they're going to bring in somebody who's really going to get in there and say, okay, let's turn this into the, the best outdoor store you can find within the Grove.


Colin True

00:44:57.220 - 00:45:21.392

Well, moving into the. The other story Yeti. So they have yet to publicly confirm their plans regarding Mystery Ranch.


I know we just revisited this again last week, but I think there'd be some confused retailers if they did backtrack. At the end of the day, they'll probably sell more Yeti packs than Mystery Ran packs. Right. I mean, or Mystery Ranch packs.


So what, what are our predictions?


You know, I know this is a little more recent, but I'm curious, Owen, what do you think, what do you think's going to happen here as we, as we kind of get into it with YETI and Mystery Ranch, they have.


Eoin Comerford

00:45:21.416 - 00:46:09.104

Been in the bag category. It hasn't really gone terribly well at this point, so it'll be interesting.


I would say that whatever they come out with, I think it's going to be some kick ass stuff. I mean, that's just Getty does that. Right. And now they've got a kick ass design team to do that. So I'm looking forward to seeing what they do.


My big question is how much is it going to cost? Right. And is somebody going to step up and pay that? Because their current everything they have is at a premium. Premium. Right.


So like they have a 20 liter backpack, a commuter backpack that sells for 230 bucks. The comparable item from Osprey is probably about 150, maybe 180 at the top end.


So, like, are we going to have expedition packs that are $800 from these guys? Where are we going with this thing?


Colin True

00:46:09.192 - 00:46:49.516

Well, we'll be monitoring that. I guess the last thing to close things out.


Both of these stories that we did break on here did show how beholden the media scene in the outdoors is to the brands. And we've talked about this before on the show.


But I just want to say, I think similarly, if we want to see change in the industry, if we want to see more from brands on the sustainability or the equity side of things, those with a voice need to say more and not default to acting in defense of their ad dollars. So I would, you know, I think that's something to be said for, hey guys, let's, let's be a little more critical of these folks.


We can't be the only ones. I guess that's maybe what I'm trying to say here, but that's all I got on the list. That's the top 10.


Anything that we missed from your interactions on LinkedIn, Owen, that you wanted to make sure you mentioned. I'm sure we'll be talking more about it in the next couple of weeks, but anything else?


Eoin Comerford

00:46:49.548 - 00:46:59.148

No, I think he covered a lot of the big stories. I'll be coming out with maybe some of my own lists on LinkedIn, so check me out there. But no, I think this is a great list.


Colin True

00:46:59.284 - 00:47:35.238

All right, well, in that case, we'll wrap it up right there. Come back on Wednesday to HEAR the top 10 adventure rock fight episodes of 2024 with Justin Hausman. We want your emails.


We want to hear your thoughts on this episode and every episode of the Rock Fight. Send them to myrockfightmail.com the so Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight LLC, our producer today. Producer David Karstad.


Art direction provided by Sarah. What's the goddamn login? Colin Gensert. And for Owen Comerford, I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening.


And he's back again for a New Year's edition of the Rock Fight song. It's Chris D'Makes. He's gonna sing it for you right now. We'll see you next time, Rock fighters.


Chris DeMakes

00:47:35.334 - 00:48:30.650

Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock fight, Rock fight, Rock fight, Rock flight? Welcome to the rock fight?


Where we speak our truth Slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree?


We talk about human powered outdoor activities and big bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture music the latest movie reviews, Ideas that aim? This is where we speak our truth this is where we speak our truth Rock fight, Rock fight, Rock fight? Welcome to the rock flight?


Rock fight, Rock fight? Welcome to the rock flight? Rock flight Rock fight? Rock flight, Rock flight, Rock flight? Welcome to the rock flight? Rock fight, Rock fight.

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