Today Colin opens the show by giving his thoughts on the big outdoor story of the week: The letter that was sent to Outside, Inc CEO Robin Thurston from more than 30 notable journalists making the request to have their names removed from Outside's masthead.
Then outdoor industry insider and consigliere to The Rock Fight, Eoin Comerford joins Colin to run through what he learned from The North Face's presentation at VF's recent Investor Day.
Lastly for The Parting Shot, Eoin highlights two brands from his Founder's Friday series on LinkedIn.
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Episode Transcript
Colin True
00:00:00.240 - 00:01:31.788
All right, everyone, before we get started today, I need to tell you about our amazing teammates at Darby Communications.
If you run an outdoor, an endurance or an active lifestyle brand, there is no better PR or digital marketing belay partner or drinking buddy than Darby. They can help your business reach new heights. And, you know, they might just keep you from falling on your ass.
I mean, since we started working with Darby, more and more people have been reaching out to us here at the Rock Flight because of that messaging. Look, guys, if they can help us, they can help anybody. Hit them up@darbycommunications.com, do it today.
Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak out truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head.
I'm Colin True and today I talk about the tea and the goss around the letter that was sent to Outside's CEO this past week.
And then I'll be joined by Rock Fight Consiglieri, who Owen Cupperford, to talk about what he learned about the North Face from last week's VF Investor Day. But before we get to that, did you miss Monday and Wednesday's episode of the Rock Fight?
It's been a big week here on the Rock Fight, so make sure you get caught up. Monday we ranked the top five outdoor accessory brands. And on Wednesday, Justin Hausman and I read listener responses to last week's Q and A Corner.
Check it out and hey, are you listening to Open Container host Doug Schnitzbahn's podcast here on the Rock Fight Podcast network? If not, you should be.
You, you should listen to, subscribe to Open Container and you should also listen and subscribe to this podcast, the Rock Fight, on your favorite podcast app. Give both of them that five star rating and stick around. We'll be right back.
Chris DeMakes
00:01:31.844 - 00:01:35.800
Welcome to the Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Colin True
00:01:38.660 - 00:01:54.380
You're listening to Rock Fight radio. No Fit Socks is riding high with a string of number ones.
And because of that success, they were able to get super producer Rick Albini to remaster this hit. We believe in the Sox. Here we go. It's time for fits.
FITS!
00:01:55.440 - 00:03:15.700
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We believe in free range toes and having room to roam and fine gauge merino wool as comfortable as home. We believe in made in USA and we believe in doing what we say. Wear fits. We fit. That's right. That's Right. We're Fits. We fit. That's right. That's right.
And we believe in the sock fits, fits, fits. We believe in the sock fits, fits, fits. We believe in the sock. We believe in the sock fits, fits, fits, fits. We believe in the sock fits.
Colin True
00:03:18.040 - 00:11:08.762
And now back to the show.
All right, I want to talk about this real quick before I bring in Owen, because once again, there is some drama coming out of the world of Outside, and I'm not talking about our friend Patty O'Connell getting the gig as the host of their podcast. That is something that I've been saying they should do for forever. So I'm glad to see that is finally happening.
No, the tea that spilled this past Monday was a group of more than 30 former outside contributing editors sending a letter to Outside Incorporated's CEO, Robin Thurston, asking that their names be removed from Outside's masthead. And per that letter, which several of those who signed it have publicly posted on LinkedIn and Instagram.
The reason for this request is, quote, due to the layoffs of Outside's longtime editorial leadership and budget cuts that place an undue strain on the hardworking staff that remain, end quote.
They also go on to write, quote, we are equally alarmed by directives from the company's leadership asking editors to refrain from investigative journalism and political coverage, end quote. Some of the names who sent this letter include Jimmy Chin, Katie Arnold, Mark Peruzzi, Grayson Schaeffer, E.
Jean Carroll, Hampton Sides, and Tracy Ross. And Outside's response was swift. Robin Thurston responded to the group on Tuesday.
Mark Peruzzi posted Robin's response on his LinkedIn feed, while Hampton Sides also posted it on Instagram. Robin expressed disappointment in the request while offering to meet and discuss things.
Hampton Sides also responded to Robin's response, which you can find on Instagram. And my guess is that a meeting is unlikely to happen. Mark Peruzzi also annotated Robin's response with his own thoughts on LinkedIn.
It's all out there for anyone who wants to read it. It's not hard to find. Go check it out.
So, first off, allow me to be petty for a second and say this is exactly what I've been harping on for two years. Anytime I've brought up Outside on this show, it's been out of straight confusion about a move they made.
The only L I feel like I've taken was pondering if they would actually do the Outside Festival, which, of course, they have done and seem to be doing again this year. Every other rock I've lobbed them was rooted in simply not getting what they were trying to do.
Whether that thing was a morning magazine style TV show, or using their widely known podcast to run a 20 minute ad for their forthcoming AI chatbot, or an attempt to bring NFTs to the outdoors, the launch of their own social media platform, or Robin's op ed about going hella skiing with celebrities. None of it made any sense to me and none of it really seemed to work.
And plus over that same time, the quality of the journalism, it just was going in the wrong direction. I've said it on this show before that when I think of Outside, I think of things like the Perfect Storm and Into Thin Air.
On Doug Schnitzbahn's podcast Open Container, he spoke to Steven Cazmiro a couple of weeks ago. He referenced the King of the Ferret Lakers, another classic piece to come out of Outside.
And looking at Outside's website the morning I'm recording this Almost every recent article is the type of snackable, you know, improve your life content that old school Outside readers and writers would make fun of in other publications.
The majority of the brands and entities that end up in our crosshairs here on the Rock fight don't find themselves there because I just want to be an asshole and rant about things I don't like.
If you really listen to what we say about them, you'll see it's because they are often brands or retailers or decision makers that we like and love and have a history with and are bummed out about the position they have found themselves in. I don't want Outside to suck.
I also don't begrudge the lots of titles and companies under one big outdoor roof experiment that Robin Thurston has attempted.
But at some point you need to recognize that you are being willfully obtuse about the lack of success of both the strategy and the work you're producing. And another reason I have such a bug up my ass about this is that even in its decline, Outside is still the dominant player in outdoor media.
Talk to any outdoor publicist off the record and they'll tell you that the prevailing sentiment is that they the Outside product is significantly diminished, but that the brands are still eager to be highlighted in Listicles Features and Outside's Gear Guide.
And it appears that the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back was the layoffs that took place last month that wiped out most of the remnants of Outside's existence before its most current iteration, which led to a lot of folks who had been disgruntled behind the scenes speaking up. And then this letter asking to be removed from the masthead.
And in speaking with a few folks you know, again off the record, most of these folks impacted by the layoffs and even those who have left outside of their own have signed non disparagement agreements, so speaking publicly would put them at risk. A big turning point was apparently the directive from management to avoid certain topics.
This is cited in the letter from these former editors where they wrote, we are equally alarmed by directives from the company's leadership asking editors to refrain from investigative journalism and political coverage.
If that's truly the case that those writing for a title that came to prominence telling amazing stories about the outdoors as well as stories that weren't even about the outdoors but the outdoor community embraced have guard rails up to prevent that level of journalism, then it's difficult to see how this ends with Outside thriving again in the future. Because for better or for worse, you guys, you took the outside name and the logo and you built everything else underneath that.
So people expect it to be outside and it's not really that way anymore.
And the last thing I'll say, and this is that when we had CJ from Outside on the show a few weeks ago to talk about the Outside Festival, I really left that conversation encouraged.
Not that any of what I just described would be fixed by what they were planning for the festival, but that perhaps the festival was the roadmap for Outside to remain relevant in the outdoor conversation. But with what transpired this week, I have to say I'm significantly less optimistic about what the future holds for Outside.
And while that's a bummer, I think it's just time for something new, like maybe the podcast you're listening to right now. I don't know. Let's take a break and then we'll be back with Owen. Alright folks, let's talk about a game changer.
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What are you? The Outdoor industry insider and Rock Fights Consigliere. You have all these titles. So many titles.
Owen Comerford is here and we're talking a bit about what happened last week on March 6th. There was a broader investor day put on by their parent company, VF they in the and the sentence being the North Face.
And North Face's Caroline Brown laid out her vision for the famed outdoor brand. Owen, earlier this week on LinkedIn, you broke down your key takeaways based on Caroline's remarks and we're it was so.
Eoin Comerford
00:11:08.786 - 00:11:12.426
Nice of them to invite us, by the way. I really, I really enjoyed that. Yeah.
Colin True
00:11:12.458 - 00:11:19.466
What's up with that? I mean, how do you get invites to these things? Is any other. There's no real outdoor media.
They I don't even think that they need to invite anyone from the media to these things.
Eoin Comerford
00:11:19.538 - 00:11:35.294
Yeah, no, I, that'll be interesting, though, if we ever do get invited. That'll be like the sign of the pending apocalypse we've broken through.
Well, I know it's the pending apocalypse if Rock Fight gets invited to the VF Investor day. So anyway, yeah, so you want to.
Colin True
00:11:35.302 - 00:11:40.670
See us in the back room like, you know, like producer Dave giggling and like you know, doing silly things the entire time? Is that what it would be?
Eoin Comerford
00:11:40.710 - 00:11:51.280
You know, pretty much no. But I relied on the excellent reporting from CISO and then broke it down from there. Plus, they also posted the presentation VF Corp did.
Colin True
00:11:51.320 - 00:12:13.744
So, yeah, a lot of great information came out of this. I mean, we could, we could talk about any one of their brands and obviously, I don't know, they're a public company.
So I'm sure that's why they release all that information. But it was, it was great to see all that and your coverage of it was great. We're going to go through, you had nine takeaways.
I'm going to go through each of those in a second here. But more, you know, more broadly, I do want to add some context to this conversation. Like why do we care?
Like why is it important, do you think, for us to talk about this here on the show?
Eoin Comerford
00:12:13.832 - 00:12:28.350
We have, we have very few billion dollar plus brands in the outdoor industry. And the North Face is really the biggest. Right. I mean you get north face at close to 4 billion arcterics, now is a couple of billion.
I think Patagonia is somewhere in that place too.
Colin True
00:12:28.650 - 00:12:29.670
Solomon.
Eoin Comerford
00:12:30.250 - 00:12:52.410
Solomon. We never forget about Salomon around here. And so these are the big brands. They're also publicly traded.
So we get to see a little bit under the covers, which we don't get to see with some of the other brands.
And quite frankly, what's happening with their business and what is projected for their business in many ways is an indicator of what's happening in this larger outdoor industry.
Colin True
00:12:53.350 - 00:13:19.606
Yeah, there's a lot of, I've been getting a lot of emails lately from listeners that kind of blaming the woes on, of the industry on the big brands. And I'm, I'm not saying there are not criticisms that are worthy of putting at their feet.
I mean, there's all sorts of things we can talk about and we do, but we don't have an industry without, you know, without a $4 billion entity like the North Face, it just becomes like a little collection of small brands. Right. So it's, it's important to kind of see what's happening with the big players, to kind of determine where the industry is actually headed. Yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:13:19.638 - 00:13:36.726
And I think some, some of the things that they throw at the feet of the big brands, whether it's D2C or discounting or whatever else, a lot of that is happening in the medium and small size brands too. So let's not pretend that, that all the badness is happening with the big guys.
Colin True
00:13:36.918 - 00:13:48.070
Right.
And just to kind of, we will, when we're done with this list of things you took away from the, the investor day, we'll make sure we highlight some of the, you know, founders Friday's brands you've been talking about as well, because we want to make sure we continue to do that for sure.
Eoin Comerford
00:13:48.190 - 00:13:48.614
Totally.
Colin True
00:13:48.662 - 00:14:00.930
So let's go through some of your observations. Like are nine the first one you wrote, the North Face will double its apparel, equipment and bags business and triple its footwear business.
Those are big numbers for a big brand. What's going on there?
Eoin Comerford
00:14:01.050 - 00:14:52.588
I mean, if you take. So they do about 3.6, 3.7 billion, you double all those and you're triple footwear.
You're getting close to an $8 billion brand, which is pretty meaningful. And I would tell you, though, of the 3.7-ish billion that they do today, less than a billion is actually in what Circana would call the US Retail.
So it's the specialty outdoor, it's the Dicks and the Reis, it's the backcountries and the Evos and those folks. And of that, less than a quarter of a billion is actually in specialty.
So I think one of the big questions is going to be, well, okay, if they're going to more than double this thing, are they going to double it in specialty? Are we going to go from 250 million or whatever to 500 million? I don't necessarily see that really, there's.
Colin True
00:14:52.604 - 00:14:54.012
The floor space to do that.
Eoin Comerford
00:14:54.116 - 00:15:46.300
Well, right. And I don't know that the outdoor specialty wants to get deeper in with some of these bigger brands. Right. So that leaves D2C as one, one route. Right.
It leaves fashion or lifestyle. Call it what you will, Macy's, you know, as another route. And then the other route is international.
So it's going to be interesting because they're going to need to take share or expand their market to more than double in size. And then what are the categories? Somebody on LinkedIn said, I don't see them doubling their equipment and bags business.
To which my answer was, well, it's equipment and bags. So you figure out which side of that equation they're going to grow. Right. So, yeah, we're going to see a lot more jesters out there on the street.
Colin True
00:15:47.350 - 00:16:10.526
I mean, apparel's the real opportunity, right? Because even footwear, same thing. I mean, footwear, they've been making shoes for going on 20 years now, you know, at least 15. Right. So it's.
That's another one where again, hard to take that shirt, even at a big retailer, even like at a Dick's, to have, like to knock a few shoes off that wall and get more added to it is going to take a lot of effort and probably a lot of advertising spend. I mean, just going to be. So much goes into it. The opportunity easily is an apparel.
Eoin Comerford
00:16:10.558 - 00:16:42.300
I would imagine they say that they're going to. They're only going to Double apparel. They're tripling footwear. Right. And that's interesting. Yeah.
Because I think footwear is still a relatively small category within North Face and is kind of concentrated in like hike and trail running and those sorts of things. I think they want to take it to a much more of a lifestyle type play.
So, yes, let's keep the quote unquote, top of the mountain stuff, but then have a lot of other product where it's more every day.
Colin True
00:16:42.640 - 00:17:22.469
It's going to have to be that, I would think.
I mean, because it's one thing if it was like, y'all, we're trying to take off a few different boot brands or something like that, but with just the, the footwear assault of on and Hoka and all these other brands that are just, I think it just eaten into Nike's share in this category in the general footwear space. Not even just in the outdoor. I just can't imagine it would. Tripling it in the core. The core is going to be difficult, but we'll see. This will.
This is an opportunity for somebody. Hey, Caroline, you want to come on and talk about how you're planning on doing it? We would love to have you.
Number two, the North Face will serve both performance driven outdoor consumers and larger, quote, performance inspired lifestyle and the larger performance inspired lifestyle segment. I mean, it's kind of what they're doing already.
Eoin Comerford
00:17:22.769 - 00:18:11.174
This is, I mean, the outdoor industry has been talking about this forever. I can't tell you how many, you know, brand presentations I've seen over the years that show the classic, you know, pyramid.
The pyramid is the aspirational customer, yada yada. And then there's the, there's the aspirational. They do it all the time, whatever. Then there's in the middle, there's the outdoor.
They're active outdoors, but maybe only like recreational. And then there's the lifestyle piece at the bottom. I mean, this is nothing new. I'm sorry.
But what it, what it is, what it does tell you is at least that they understand that they really need to lean into the aspirational piece. You can't let that go. You can't let that core go.
Because that aspirational aspect is what then makes the people who are just buying it to look outdoorsy, still want to buy it, if you see what I'm saying.
Colin True
00:18:11.262 - 00:18:18.422
Sure. But I mean, that also is just why they're not core anymore. Right. Because, you know, it's just out. This is lifestyle stuff. Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:18:18.606 - 00:18:48.864
But we talked about this and I think recently it's like yeah, but who is core? I mean outside of true equipment brands and that's all that they do. Like the Nemos of the world. Right. Or even the Ospreys of the world.
You know, being core and being an apparel brand primarily, it's almost an antithetical I would say, if you're going to grow to any size. So yeah, it's a trope. And there was a lot of blowback on LinkedIn about that. Like, oh, they're not core anymore.
Colin True
00:18:48.912 - 00:18:49.872
Like, well, it's amazing.
Eoin Comerford
00:18:49.936 - 00:18:51.504
Yeah, it's just, I mean I know.
Colin True
00:18:51.512 - 00:19:28.868
We ted it as a parting shot here a couple weeks ago. Like just leave them alone in this. I, I think I said before hit record.
I saw a video, a photo from Everest base Camp of like some guys standing around like three of the four wearing north face jackets. If people are still wearing and using your stuff at Everest base camp, you're a core outdoor brand.
Okay, I'm sorry, just like give up this like tired shtick that they're not, they're not core anymore. Yes. And they are like every other outdoor brand going to have performance inspired lifestyle. That is what they're going to do.
I don't care if it's a tiny independent founder led brand. Well, that's not true.
I guess there's some people who aren't going to go that route, but if they decide not to go that route, then they're probably not going to grow very big. They're not going to get very big and that is just what's the way that it is.
Eoin Comerford
00:19:29.004 - 00:19:46.996
And I think we're just going to see a lot more collabs.
I mean, you know, for as much as people, I don't know who belly ached about the skims thing, you know, I think that's, that's actually we're going to see more of the same which may piss off the quote unquote core. But I think they're, you know, that's where the growth is going to come from. So.
Colin True
00:19:47.068 - 00:19:55.020
All right, well that brings us to number four on the list which is the north face will elevate materials, quality and price to value perception. What's that about?
Eoin Comerford
00:19:55.140 - 00:20:56.280
Yes.
So what I think it means is that prices are likely going to go up so they're going to upgrade materials especially for the more top of the mountain type product. Right. So try to move up a little bit in where they are. And I would say that's not surprising given that Caroline Brown came out of luxury.
Basically her whole career has been in luxury lvmh Giorgio Armani, et cetera. And so she understands price, she understands brand equity more than anything. I mean the whole luxury deal is margin through brand equity.
And so that's why she's leaning into brand, leaning into product.
But then also I think that part of that lean in to brand and product is to be able to push price up at least certainly at the top, like the top of the mountain product. And so if you can move those pieces up and start to command higher retails there, you can then start to inch up the more mass volume pieces as well.
Colin True
00:20:56.830 - 00:21:11.570
Is this a little kind of a fluffy bullet though? I mean, like if you're already an outdoor brand, you're already usually using better materials, the quality is good things last.
I mean, is this kind of a just filling out the roster of things to talk about at the presentation on investors Day?
Eoin Comerford
00:21:12.270 - 00:21:38.882
Maybe part of it may get into the whole tech aspect too of their proprietary technologies, which we'll touch on a little bit later. But yeah, I think what it is saying though is we, we plan to stay a premium brand. Right.
We're not, we're not going to chase, you know, you're not going to find us in Kohl's. You're not, we're not going to chase that kind of volume. We're going to stay premium in terms of our materials and our pricing as well.
Colin True
00:21:38.986 - 00:21:45.266
Number five, the North Face will offer full head to toe collections within each category. I mean, are they not already doing this?
Eoin Comerford
00:21:45.338 - 00:22:57.332
Well, that was my initial thought. I'm like, oh, maybe they'll get into socks and base layer. And then I look and oh, they're already in socks and base layer.
And so then I looked into the comments a little bit more and really what this is, I think is the issue that they have where the, let's say the man or the woman who buys that North Face jacket, Right.
And wants to be seen in that North Face jacket, has no interest in North Face hiking pants, no interest in many other areas of their quote unquote, head to toe collection that exists today. Right, right. It's just, it's a different.
So that customer only thinks of them for outerwear, doesn't think of them for the rest of the head to toe at all.
And so what I think this means is really them leaning into other aspects or more I guess, lifestyle accessible product for, you know, for call it leggings, you know, pants, shorts, whatever that doesn't have kind of quite as much of an outdoorsy vibe that maybe is more athleisure and less outdoor in terms of.
Colin True
00:22:57.356 - 00:23:55.494
Its look, I feel like I've heard some of this before. And is this kind of a misguided attempt? Because I think most the best way I ever heard somebody describe about what they want a product to do.
And it was from some folks at Under Armour. I think I've told this on the pod before.
And we were meeting with them when I was at Polar Tech and I said, look, we want people to walk into the store, see it hanging there, pick it up and go, yep, that's the one. And walk to the register. I don't even care if they try it on. Like, that's. We want. That's, that's the, that's the best case success right there.
And when I hear these things about like, well, we want to develop a collection. So they're thinking of us more in these other pieces and they're not currently thinking of us in these other categories.
Like, I don't think people think that way in general. I think most people think again. It's a passion usually it's an impulse decision and a passion driven decision.
And then if it's like, oh, and I like the North Face brand too, on top of it, that's like a bonus. So is that the right way to almost go about this? Kind of think about that in collections?
And with that being the end result versus just, hey, we want to play in all these different categories. So we're going to create good products in all these different categories.
Eoin Comerford
00:23:55.622 - 00:24:19.366
I think it is about thinking of it in terms of collections, but also thinking of it in terms of customers.
And, you know, if, if you look at, let's say, that woman that's buying a Nuptsie jacket, what does she have, you know, what is she wearing under the Nuptsy jacket? What she. What, what is she wearing on her legs? What's she wearing on her feet?
And, you know, and can we play and compete better with those brands and those products than what we currently have today?
Colin True
00:24:19.438 - 00:24:26.722
I see. So it's more about, we, we know that we're known for this. Let's try and get more known for this other stuff as well. More like that kind of mindset.
Eoin Comerford
00:24:26.786 - 00:24:28.150
I got you. Okay.
Colin True
00:24:28.970 - 00:24:39.430
Well, I think you're pretty known for just about everything at this point, but okay, number six, the North Face will develop a heritage driven design language.
Eoin Comerford
00:24:40.410 - 00:24:41.970
Yes. So this is good.
Colin True
00:24:42.010 - 00:24:44.270
This is good fluff right here, man. This is great.
Eoin Comerford
00:24:44.570 - 00:26:12.978
Actually, you know what? It is fluff. But I think it's actually, if you can do it. Well, this is really important because we Bitch about this a lot on this pod.
The sea of sameness that exists within the outdoor stores. Right, sure. Across brands, you know, one puffy jacket looks like the next puffy jacket, yada yada.
And so when brands have a really clear design pov, like a Fjallraven, like an Arc'teryx as an example, even a Kodapaksi that you love. Right. I got. They stand out and so they.
People then look for that and it really sets them apart from the rest of the product and it gives them more of a reason to be and to live within that merchant's vision for the store. And I think over the years, well, two things have.
One is over the years, the rest of the industry has, let's say, copied North Face's looks, whether it's like the nuptsy look type jacket or what have you. And over the years, North Face's own design language has been watered down as it's tried to do be all things to all people.
So if they can do this well, I think it could be great to where, you know, and I've said this on the pod before, the key for me a lot of times looking at a brand and talking to merchants was if I cover up that logo, can I still tell you who makes that product?
Colin True
00:26:13.034 - 00:26:13.746
Yes. Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:26:13.818 - 00:26:14.050
Right.
Colin True
00:26:14.090 - 00:26:18.930
Yeah. Which is usually a big no for most outdoor stuff, apparel special and most.
Eoin Comerford
00:26:18.970 - 00:26:32.606
And that's usually a big no for a lot of North Face outside of maybe their franchise. So, you know, I think jokingly, I feel like we're going to see a lot of black shoulder. Black shoulder color blocking here.
Colin True
00:26:32.678 - 00:26:34.142
Like a lot of Denali looks.
Eoin Comerford
00:26:34.286 - 00:26:35.646
They're going to go back to the.
Colin True
00:26:35.798 - 00:26:49.086
That's probably their most like signature look. Because to your point, like the nopcy, the down stuff now is just like, well, it's a down jacket.
I might, I might be able to be a little discerning between them, but probably not the, the Denali. It's like, oh, it's a Denali. You know what it is.
Eoin Comerford
00:26:49.158 - 00:27:46.370
Yeah.
So I, I think it's going to be a lot of, not necessarily all black shoulder overlays, but I think we are going to see a lot of color blocking where it is darker on top, lighter on the bottom. We are going to see a lot more sort of like the whole forearm elbow patch look. And I'm guessing I'm not a designer, so, you know, grain of salt.
Grain of salt.
But I do think they're going to, from a design perspective, really pick apart what makes North Face North Face and then try to put together a design language that they can then work into each of their different products. And then as they move beyond maybe some of the more outdoorsy looks for, let's say, their bottoms program.
How do you like, what is a North Face non outdoorsy looking bottom look like? That's still within this quote unquote design language. So it'll be interesting.
Colin True
00:27:46.950 - 00:28:19.270
I have a nit to pick then on these initiatives and maybe I should save it to the end, but let me say it and then you can tell me if we should save it to the end for what you just described. If you're talking about tripling and doubling your range, it's only going to get that much harder. It's a lot of stuff to try and implement.
And I understand maybe that's why they're saying we want to have this design language will enable them to make their range that much bigger. But wow, that's a lot of stuff that's going to try and have this unique point of view so that you know that it's North Face.
I don't know how you do it. I mean, like, how many, how can, how could you even start that process?
Eoin Comerford
00:28:20.130 - 00:28:50.850
Tough. And I mean, if it was easy, everybody would do it. But what I would say is you want to do it before you start expanding the line versus after, right?
So figure it out. Figure out what those unique design elements are so that now when we're designing these other things, we're like, okay, we stand for X, Y and Z.
These are the visual cues that say that it's North Face. It could be logo placement, it could be a bunch of things. Those all have to be in place. Otherwise this isn't really a North Face product.
It's just a knockoff of whatever Lululem or, you know, you name it. Right.
Colin True
00:28:51.550 - 00:29:09.734
Also, they did say they're doubling their and tripling their business. Not necessarily like the amount of stuff they're making.
I still feel like this, this has the, this has the threat of like, this turns from this becomes like full like Cheesecake Factory menu of like we, we do a, a million things at a C minus level. Right?
Eoin Comerford
00:29:09.822 - 00:29:13.046
So yeah, maybe I'm not a Cheesecake.
Colin True
00:29:13.078 - 00:29:17.220
Factory person, but okay, but have you seen the menu? Right? It's like a novel.
Eoin Comerford
00:29:17.380 - 00:29:19.476
I've never eaten at a Cheesecake Factory.
Colin True
00:29:19.588 - 00:29:32.000
Oh, really? That's when I was like, yeah, you're probably better off, if I'm being honest. All right, number seven on the list.
This is a good follow up to that one. The North Face will lean into quote, product, franchise management.
Eoin Comerford
00:29:33.180 - 00:31:07.452
Yeah. So what this really means is it's not like they haven't done franchise management before, but Summit series, right? Yeah.
I mean it's really like their franchise products, right. Are Denali and Nupsie and Mountain Jacket and those things. Right.
And so it's this concept of okay, yes, we have it in Ali, but how do we manage that franchise and how do we take that look and then expand it elsewhere?
So we're not, it's not just going to be a jacket but you know, we're going to have a, it's going to be cropped, it's going to be lengthened, it's going to be, it's going to be a vest, it's going to, you know, it's going to be all these things and we're going to do that with all of these products and have them in multiple different ways. Whereas it's. You still think of it as a nupsie. It's clearly part of the Nuptsy family, but we've kind of changed up how it goes to market.
So I don't know that there's a lot here, here other than they're going to be more thoughtful about that and really lean into the whole franchise concept.
I think this was one where a number of folks on LinkedIn were sort of saying, sounds a lot like Nike about two or three years ago where they really started to lean on some of the Old Faithfuls and maybe over emphasize the Old Faithfuls. And now people have kind of moved on from that. It's just like, eh, okay, yeah, we've seen that before. Like what's new here?
So this is one where like okay, yeah, franchise management is important, but you can take it too far and it can actually bite you in the ass.
Colin True
00:31:07.636 - 00:31:29.000
Yeah, the more I look at the list, the more I feel like this list could have been about, you know, three or four bullet points instead of nine, you know, and it's like from there and like the next one is, you know, tech development will focus on element protection, moisture management and movement enhancement. It's like, okay, so you're an outdoor brand, so like what, what more do you do? You really need to put that as part of your plan in the North Face.
Eoin Comerford
00:31:30.180 - 00:32:04.760
Yeah, I think what, what that it, it's trying to add focus I think is what it's trying to do. Which is, which is fine. Really though, it's not like North Face hasn't tried to develop technologies over the last number of years.
The challenge has actually been Getting those technologies to really be something that consumers recognize and value. Okay, right. So, like, I don't know, do you remember Fuse form back in the day?
Colin True
00:32:04.880 - 00:32:05.704
I do, yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:32:05.752 - 00:32:44.142
Yeah. So actually I love my Fuse form jacket, but consumers didn't care. Right. It was just like, okay, so there's a different weave and a different thing.
It was really sort of nerdy techy shit. Right. You know, then you've got future light that they came out with, which is, I don't know, four or five years ago.
Which, which was their, really their take on the next generation of what a two layer fabric coder would be. And arguably, supposedly, you know, performed better than the Gore Tex, et cetera. Fast Dry was another one that came out with Thermoball. Right.
I mean, so well. Thermoball did really well. I think of.
Colin True
00:32:44.246 - 00:32:44.958
It's so great.
Eoin Comerford
00:32:45.014 - 00:33:14.090
It's so great. Exactly. So of all of those, it did the best. And in my mind, the reason that it did the best was because it had a visual element to the technology.
Right. It was actually from the consumer's perspective. They were like, oh, I don't know what a thermal is, but I can kind of understand it.
And I see it because you've created this whole different quilting pattern and consumers got it. And so that to me is like, okay, if you're going to do Flash dry or Futurelight or all these other things.
Colin True
00:33:14.490 - 00:33:15.282
Yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:33:15.426 - 00:33:22.310
Is it going to be something that people actually care about and look for and differentiates you from the next guy?
Colin True
00:33:24.010 - 00:33:33.122
I just thought thermoball looked terrible. That was my. I hated the thermal. And then because. And you're right, but because it was so successful. They were everywhere.
Then I felt like I was just surrounded by this ugly jacket all the time.
Eoin Comerford
00:33:33.306 - 00:33:41.730
The thing. I hate the thing. I. I'm with you. The thing I hated about Thermo was the fish. I mean, it was so boxy. It just like, it was.
Colin True
00:33:41.770 - 00:33:44.914
It was a middle America jacket. Sorry, Middle America, but you know what I'm talking about.
Eoin Comerford
00:33:45.002 - 00:33:50.336
No, yeah, yeah. Not. Yeah, I wasn't a big fan, but yeah, it's sold like hotcakes. So. Yeah.
Colin True
00:33:50.368 - 00:33:51.360
Yeah. Great, right?
Eoin Comerford
00:33:51.400 - 00:33:51.664
Yeah.
Colin True
00:33:51.712 - 00:34:00.960
Made a lot of sense for them. Last one is the North Face. Will modernize its marketing. Shortest one on the list. Did they, did they explain what that means?
Eoin Comerford
00:34:01.080 - 00:34:32.456
Yeah, I think ultimately what it means is we're. We're going to way more digital. Not that they weren't already in digital, but I think it's more and more and more digital. More. Even more collabs.
I Mean, you might think, oh, you know, we've got Gucci and we've got, you know, supreme and we've got Skims. No, no, we are, we are, we are. Tip of the iceberg stuff right here. We're going to see a lot more of that, more influencers.
So, you know, I think you had your whole conversation about athletes.
Colin True
00:34:32.568 - 00:34:33.752
Right, right.
Eoin Comerford
00:34:33.936 - 00:36:07.520
In the past. And to me there's this sort of. There's athletes and there are influences and they're not the same thing. Right.
You have, you have athletes who are influencers, but you've got a whole bunch of influencers who are not athletes.
And so I think we're going to see those a lot more from those folks here as we, as we move forward with, with North Face, I think we're going to see a lot more UGC content, which is for a brand like North Face.
That UGC is an interesting play just because for brands that really want to manage their, their brand, it can be tough for them to kind of like let that go and like let, let some random influencer or a random person, you know, unbox a Denali jacket. But it's very powerful and it works really well on social because it's much more like endemic to the platform. Right. It doesn't look like an ad.
So people actually engage with it much more than, you know, this slick, beautiful, you know, shot that they did on the top of Mount Iger or whatever. So I think they are going to move in that direction as well. More celebrity endorsements, I think is also coming as well here.
So not just influencers, but actually celebrities.
So it's that whole play, it's getting attention and staying as part of the zeitgeist by being part of the whole social media landscape and conversation as opposed to much more, you know, curated and managed marketing through print or TV or whatever else.
Colin True
00:36:07.680 - 00:36:19.008
Right. What did they mention? One thing not represented in this list and they may have said it during the presentation. Nothing on circularity sustainability.
Was that, did that, was that, did that come up in the, the panel that you saw?
Eoin Comerford
00:36:19.144 - 00:36:20.700
Not that I saw, no.
Colin True
00:36:21.000 - 00:36:41.322
I think that's a big miss. They at least should have been mentioned, I would imagine. I mean, this is.
Especially if this is all being put out public or maybe they're sort of reflecting the current political climate and the rollback of DEI and stuff like that and not wanting to kind of touch that. But I mean, it's such a, it's so endemic to the outdoors to at least talk about. And we're going to do it greener than we've done it before, you know.
Eoin Comerford
00:36:41.506 - 00:36:45.674
Right. But the audience here was investment analysts.
Colin True
00:36:45.802 - 00:36:48.186
Well, that's true. That's right. This wasn't just for us.
Eoin Comerford
00:36:48.338 - 00:37:09.030
Yeah, about. That's right. About sustainability.
And in fairness, you know, I'm not sure that a lot of consumers of the North Face give a flying F about sustainability either. They probably want to know that that box is checked, but they're not really digging in on this stuff. But this is what we talk about.
Colin True
00:37:09.070 - 00:37:25.090
That until we talk, until they proactively make it important, it won't become important. Patagonia continues to be the only one hammering this, then it's. That's the Patagonia thing. That's not the outdoor industry thing. Right.
So another opportunity to jump on board with that, I guess. And anytime there's a public forum, them.
Eoin Comerford
00:37:25.210 - 00:37:40.130
And we did actually skip one, which was that they're talking about going from 20 product categories down to three. Okay. And so they're going from. I don't know what all the 20 categories were, but the three.
Colin True
00:37:40.170 - 00:37:40.834
Oh, you got to name them.
Eoin Comerford
00:37:40.842 - 00:38:08.306
All the three categories are snow, climb and trail. And what I took away from that is, hey, listen, you know, we're going to.
Rather than have like, hey, we've got a category for athletic leggings or whatever the hell it is, or we got pants or, you know, men's ba ba da ba. But it's like, no, no, we're going to really center each of the categories that we have in core outdoor activities.
Colin True
00:38:08.498 - 00:38:09.234
Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:38:09.402 - 00:38:53.236
So snow, climb, and trail. And that really will help us to stay centered and kind of authentic, so to speak, around each of those elements so that it's.
It's still part of the DNA. And to me, this was a bit of a final repudiation for a strategy that they took on in the mid teens.
I don't know if you remember this, but their strategy, they went with these sort of customer centric customer cohorts. And I don't know, I think there were four of them.
I don't remember the exact details, but what I remember specifically was they had one that was like outdoor, like core outdoor. That was a category. Then they had one that was urban or whatever they wanted to call that, urban streetwear or whatever.
Colin True
00:38:53.268 - 00:38:53.972
Right, right, right.
Eoin Comerford
00:38:53.996 - 00:39:59.018
And they had one that was. I think it was mountain lifestyle. Right. So not really performance, but like, it's. You want to look outdoorsy.
And then the fourth one, I think was like active. So it was like their play on. On getting into the Lululemon type Product. Right, right. And that didn't really work.
And if anything, I think some people would point to that as part of the loss of a little bit of the core, because the core. Core, as everybody is all about core, was only part of one of those four segments. And so it really was like, oh, we're in the urban part of this.
We don't give a crap about top of the mountain or anything. And so this is, I think, almost a complete reversal to say, no, no, no. Everything we do is core.
We're not, you know, and the reason why let's say we have a customer that is urban or that likes the stuff for streetwear is because it still has that top of the mountain appeal, not because we're designing specifically for that customer.
Colin True
00:39:59.114 - 00:40:47.420
Okay, so which, by the way, that all makes sense. I'm all for simplification. If you have 20 product categories, that sounds kind of ridiculous to your point. Like, it's, it allows them to kind of be.
Have things held against them like, oh, you're not core, because you have the whole divisions now that are not even, like, you know, what you say, you, you, you used to be. Whatever. I like that. I think I like the clarity of that. If I'm on that product team, I'm thinking, great, I'm on the snow team.
So now we are making these sort of franchises, these, this design language, all the other things on this list kind of playing into those specific categories. What's the response been, though? Because I did notice I saw an SGB the day after the. This presentation. VF shares dropped. Is there anything. Do we.
Do we do.
Is that a larger VF problem or is that, you know, obviously it's not going to be solely the North Face, but I mean, is there a correlation to be made about what was at the investors day, the Investor's Day, versus what came out the next day?
Eoin Comerford
00:40:47.720 - 00:41:01.600
What most analysts pushed back on was that there wasn't really very clear guidance as to where are we going this year, where are we going in terms of revenue this year? Because this is all.
Colin True
00:41:01.720 - 00:41:05.760
This is all 20, 26 at the earliest. Yeah, right.
Eoin Comerford
00:41:05.880 - 00:41:26.992
And for analysts, this was all very handwritten saving. Right. In terms of, like, it was brand, it was product, you know, which I actually think is great.
I think it's great that they're focusing on brand new product. That's what they should be doing. But as an analyst, they want to hear about, you know, like, they want to hear about the financials.
They want to hear about slashing more cost. They want to hear about laying people off. They want to hear about, you know, retail expansion.
Colin True
00:41:27.056 - 00:41:31.968
Right. All those big things that are moving the needle and they're in the financial markets. So. Yeah, I get it.
Eoin Comerford
00:41:32.024 - 00:41:43.484
Yeah. And they didn't hear that. What they heard was brand, brand, brand, product, product, product.
And analysts are like, ah, we don't care about that channel. Tell us what's going to drive the stock price up 10% in the next 12 months tomorrow.
Colin True
00:41:43.532 - 00:41:45.484
Right, yeah, right. As opposed to.
Eoin Comerford
00:41:45.572 - 00:41:56.620
Yeah. And so, yeah, so I think from that perspective that it was. Yeah. A lot of sizzle, no stake, maybe for the analysts.
Colin True
00:41:56.700 - 00:42:10.414
Yeah, that's not true. Yeah, I'm with you. I mean, this all sounds better.
Like hearing you have a strategy on these things that are addressing things that are specific to the outdoor marketplace is really encouraging. I assume that was your kind of key takeaway through all of this.
Eoin Comerford
00:42:10.502 - 00:43:35.650
And one of the interesting elements that came out of this was that they said they're now going to make product design, development and merchandising, make those leaders part of the North Face global leadership team. And my first question was those. They weren't part of the leadership team before this, Right. It's like, holy shit.
So you've been running this bad boy and the people that are actually designing, developing and merchandising your product didn't have a seat at the table. Now, there was probably like one person that was maybe over all of that. Right. So I'm sure that.
Well, I'm not sure, I hope that there was some kind of product, you know, you know, representation. But. But, yeah, having them there again talks to the importance of brand and product. And that's where Caroline Brown comes from, that aspect.
And so I think that's, to me, it's encouraging that they've got somebody who is about brand and about product at the helm and not somebody that came out of Nike's D2C leadership team or whatever or came out of finance. It's like, no, no, no. This is somebody that understands the importance of brand. Okay. And so that, to me, is encouraging.
Now, how successful all this will be. Time will tell, but I feel like it's a movement in the right direction.
Colin True
00:43:36.470 - 00:44:04.220
So I'm obviously having a little fun with the length of the list and how it's broken up. But basically you have the number one on this list that'll double apparel equipment, bags and triple footwear. That's the goal.
And then points 2 through 9 here are basically what they're going to do to support that goal. So sitting here, March 2025, what's your prediction? If we fast forward, let's say we're heading into spring 27, where's the North Face?
Or even just next year. How close do you think we come to achieving those goals?
Eoin Comerford
00:44:04.720 - 00:44:33.012
I think it's going to be tough, quite frankly. I think it's going to be tough and by golly, if they do it, then gold star. I think it's a very audacious goal.
I wouldn't have come out with that goal. Big number are big. I mean, yeah, to say. Yeah, to say that we're going to base more than double this now they didn't.
So that was the other thing was we're going to double but they didn't say by when. Right. So.
Colin True
00:44:33.116 - 00:44:33.524
Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:44:33.612 - 00:44:45.076
Hey, maybe with enough inflation over the next, you know, four years, we'll get there. We'll just sell the same amount of stuff, you know, you know, everything is going to go up 25% a year. Hey, we double, guys.
Colin True
00:44:45.108 - 00:44:48.548
Hey, we hit 6 billion this year. Didn't do anything else. Just sat around.
Eoin Comerford
00:44:48.684 - 00:44:50.388
Exactly. It's great. It's amazing.
Colin True
00:44:50.484 - 00:44:51.268
That's amazing.
Eoin Comerford
00:44:51.364 - 00:45:18.050
But yeah, yeah, it's audacious. Again, I wouldn't sign up for that. I mean, I feel like it's going to be interesting then to see sort of the guidance on the.
Okay, so we're going to double the business of our biggest brand, but our guidance for this year is to be up 1 to 2%. It's like, okay, when does the doubling start? When does that start?
Colin True
00:45:19.310 - 00:46:01.640
Well, and to your point about the collabs, I mean, it's going to have to be that. I mean, I don't have any data in front of me to speak to this, but it just feels like can the industry support a doubling of the North Face?
Probably not, right. In terms of the retail distribution, all the things we do, even D2C.
So if, yeah, if you're really going to find just huge wins that are in adjacent marketplaces. Okay, but man, yeah, 4 to 8 billion. And I mean, you're right, they haven't put a timeline on it, but I would hope they would be thinking three years.
What's, what's, you know, 4, 5, 6, 12, 6. I don't know, two CEOs from now.
Eoin Comerford
00:46:03.620 - 00:46:33.566
Yeah, right, exactly. That's, I mean that is the thing, right. Is the timeline on some of these deals, right? People typically it's two or three years.
So no, I'm not going to be here anyway. This happening in two or three years. Maybe this is the five year plan. But It's. But that is the thing, right?
Usually when people lay out these, what they call bhags. Have you heard the term bhag? I have not. It's a big, hairy, audacious goal is a B hag.
Colin True
00:46:33.598 - 00:46:35.294
Okay, that acronym.
Eoin Comerford
00:46:35.342 - 00:46:54.470
That's a good one. Yeah. So usually when people throw out bhags, there's usually a date. So it's like. And it's, and it's like, it's usually around figures.
It's, you know, 8 million by 2028. You know, like it all kind of works together. So 8 billion rather. So, yeah, we're waiting for the other side of that equation to be announced.
Chris DeMakes
00:46:57.010 - 00:46:59.390
It's time for a party shop.
Colin True
00:47:00.690 - 00:47:04.922
Last week you promoted Artelect on Founders Friday. What's going on over there?
Eoin Comerford
00:47:05.026 - 00:48:34.410
So a really great brand. They have some awesome technology that they use for their Merino.
So I don't want to get into all the bore you with all the tech details, but the way that the merino is spun means that it is actually much more long.
It's much more durable, much more long lived, you know, so one of the challenges with, with Merino is the fact that, you know, it wears out and you get holes and whatever else. This stuff really lasts also.
It doesn't, it doesn't stretch out, you know, and so it is more expensive, but from a performance perspective, it's great. And then I like their style that, you know, it's, it's a very clean aesthetic, you know, a little bit more of a European fish, et cetera.
So it's just, it's just, it's just great stuff. Really, really high end, a little pricey, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna lie. But it's one of those investment pieces.
I have a hoodie that I absolutely love. Like, I wear it, I don't know, probably twice a week every week. Right.
I mean, it's, it's one of those pieces that's, you know, kind of can be core in your, in your wardrobe. So really like what they're doing. And the other nice thing is they are a brand that is focused on specialty retail.
They're not, you know, they're not, you know, playing on Amazon. They're not, you know, looking to sell into dicks. They're not doing any of that stuff. They, you know, they understand the importance of specialty.
And this is a brand that really walks the walk around that.
Colin True
00:48:34.950 - 00:48:39.694
And then so this is going up on Friday, so by that time you'll have your next one out who's that going to be.
Eoin Comerford
00:48:39.782 - 00:48:44.800
So the brand that's going to go up on Friday is actually Senior, who I think has been on this show.
Colin True
00:48:44.840 - 00:48:45.856
Oh, yes.
Eoin Comerford
00:48:45.968 - 00:48:46.768
Yeah.
Colin True
00:48:46.944 - 00:48:47.824
Tina and Maddie.
Eoin Comerford
00:48:47.872 - 00:49:27.084
Tina and Maddie, Yeah. And so I just, I love what they're doing.
You know, they are the, the antidote for the sea of sameness within the outdoor category, creating product with a totally different look, a different cut, a different fit, just. Just fun, fun differentiated product. They were actually picked up. Their ski line was picked life out of Toronto or out of Canada.
And I don't know if our listeners are familiar, but Sporting Life is. They're kind of like the paragon sports of Toronto. People in New York will understand what I'm talking about.
Colin True
00:49:27.252 - 00:49:28.092
Paragon rules.
Eoin Comerford
00:49:28.156 - 00:50:04.622
Yeah, but because the Sporting Life buyer, they saw their press release and they're like, oh, this shit's cool. We have to get this. So I'm really excited about what they're doing. I think it's a really fun brand. And in true.
I also love, you know, Mattie and Tina are just on it. Right. I mean, in terms of just. They are business people. They get it.
And so they're the first person in this whole deal to go, hey, and can we add a coupon code? I'm like, oh, oh, I didn't think of that. That's. Of course you can add a coupon code. Let's do this. So wait, what do you mean?
Colin True
00:50:04.646 - 00:50:05.438
For the Sporting Life?
Eoin Comerford
00:50:05.494 - 00:50:07.630
No, no, no. For, for the, for.
Colin True
00:50:07.750 - 00:50:08.766
Oh, for Founders Friday.
Eoin Comerford
00:50:08.838 - 00:50:26.538
For Founders Friday, yes. So if you look at you. Yeah. So if you get, get you out my LinkedIn and you will.
You'll see the, the scenic post and there's going to be a little, little coupon love in there. I'm not, I'm not. You know, I don't love discounting, but, you know, for, for a little new.
Colin True
00:50:26.594 - 00:50:35.770
Customer, this is so like kind of niche thing, right? Yeah. Like you discover Owen Singh and then you get a little discount off your, your scenic jacket, you know, for the women out there.
Because it's a women's specific line, so.
Eoin Comerford
00:50:35.810 - 00:50:37.870
It is. Yeah, very much so. Yeah.
Colin True
00:50:38.850 - 00:50:50.590
Right on. All right, well, the event, if you want, if you want to be featured on Founders Friday, reach out to Owen on LinkedIn.
We'll put his link in the show notes. Hey, man, thanks for dropping by. We'll see you back here on Monday with producer Dave.
Eoin Comerford
00:50:50.670 - 00:50:53.102
All right, Lots to talk about. Oh, my gosh. So much going on.
Colin True
00:50:53.126 - 00:50:54.574
Oh, my God, it's been a week.
Eoin Comerford
00:50:54.662 - 00:50:55.690
It's been a week.
Colin True
00:50:56.310 - 00:51:28.872
All right, we're gonna wrap it up there. We'll come back on Monday where Owen will be here again along with producer Dave to talk about, I mean, a lot of stuff.
We're gonna be talking about this state of the outdoor economy, frankly. Check out the latest from the Rock Flight podcast network. Open container. The Rock Fight's a production of Rock Fight LLC for Owen Comerford.
Thanks for joining us today. I'm Colin True. Thank you for listening and here to take us out.
Less than Jake is waking and baking in Gainesville this weekend, but that doesn't matter because Chris to Make still shows up every episode of the Rock Fight to sing for you the Rock Fight fight song. We'll see you next time, rock fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:51:28.936 - 00:52:24.750
Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree.
We talk about human powered outdoor activities and pick bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture music, the latest movie reviews, ideas that aim for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock flight. Rock flight. Rock fight. Welcome to the Rock Flight. Rock flight.
Rock flight. Welcome to the Rock Flight. Rock flight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome to the Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
Colin True
00:52:26.970 - 00:52:27.610
Rock fight.