The Jack Wolfskin Acquisition, REI's Apology & The Tariff Saga Continues
- colin7931
- 3 days ago
- 39 min read
Today on the show Colin is joined by Producer Dave and Outdoor Industry Insider Eoin Comerford for a Wednesday edition of our normal Monday show!
On the docket today:
The crew reacts to last week's rollback to all but 10% (unless you're China) of Trump's tariffs (05:00)
Will the tariff situation help boost secondhand business (17:24)?
The other big story of last week was the acquisition of Jack Wolfskin by ANTA who is the majority owner of Amer Sports. Eoin breaks it down (18:15)!
REI says sorry and backs off of their endorsement of Doug Burgum (33:12).
The Parting Shot! Producer Dave answers a listener question about Rock Fight's choice to promote our work with AI generated images (40:30).
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Episode Transcript:
Colin True
00:00:00.480 - 00:01:02.272
Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True and today we have a bunch of outdoorsy related topics to get to.
But before we get to that, if you missed Monday's episode of the Rock Fight, go back to hear BioLite founder and CEO Jonathan Seder. In his first conversation after BioLite acquired Goal Zero, Jonathan joined Owen Comerford and I to break down the acquisition.
And while we were talking to him about tariffs, you get to hear our reactions in real time when the news dropped about the tariff rollback and the China increase. So it's a great episode. Check it out.
And also right now it's time for you, the listener, to subscribe to both the Rock Flight and also to Open Container, the newest Rock Fight podcast that is hosted by outdoor industry legend Doug Schnitzbahn.
All you need to do is tap the Follow button on whatever podcast app you are listening to us on right now, then go over to Open Container, do the same thing there. And hey, while you're subscribing guys, just head over to Rockfight Co and subscribe to our weekly newsletter news from the front.
Click Join the mailing list to sign up for that. That's all I got for you right now, so stick around. We'll be right back.
Chris DeMakes
00:01:02.376 - 00:01:06.460
Welcome to the Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Colin True
00:01:09.400 - 00:04:18.358
Today's episode of the Rock Fight is presented by Oboz, who is helping us ask the question how do I love hiking? Let me count the ways. Number one on today's list of how I love hiking. Fresh air. Because nothing says clean living like inhaling tree farts.
And also number two, cardio without a treadmill and without Karen talking too loud on her Bluetooth next to you on the treadmill. Come on, you don't get that in the outdoors when you're going hiking. Number three, it just makes life better. Period.
Even when your boots are soaked, your knees hurt, and your snacks are gone, it's still worth it. Water tastes amazing when you're thirsty, almost like it's the original energy drink.
And lastly, number five because of Oboz Trails for Trees Challenge. During the month of April, Oboz will plant a tree for every mile you hike.
Register for the challenge by heading to trailsfortrees.com and you'll receive chances to win weekly prizes from oboes and their challenge partners.
Registration is free and open now@files4trees.com this hiking appreciation moment is brought to you by Oboz, a BOZEMAN Montana, maker of the Katabatic collection that includes the Katabatic LT and the Katabatic Wind. Check out the full katabatic footwear collection@obozfootwear.com today. All right, folks, let's talk about a game changer. Literally.
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But there's also a couple of other power ups you'll want to consider. First is their partnership with locally, so online shoppers can instantly find a knowledgeable staffer in a nearby store ready to seal the deal.
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The bottom line if your retail game is feeling like it's stuck in easy mode, Endeavor is the upgrade you need to unlock next level sales, max out your team's knowledge, and beat the boss when it comes to customer experience. Head to Endeavor. That's end VR IO to learn more today. All right, I'm here with producer Dave and Consiglieri to the rock fight. Owen Comerford.
And this episode's going up on Wednesday instead of our normal Monday because Owen and I spent Monday breaking the news about Biolite acquiring Goal zero super fun conversation, but I was wondering what, what is the political world equivalent of what is is this our, of our breaking news story? Are we like, you know, is this really a breaking news story? This acquisition? Is this sort of like, you know, broken news story?
Producer Dave
00:04:18.414 - 00:04:21.210
Colin, it's already broken into a thousand little pieces.
Colin True
00:04:22.110 - 00:04:28.886
I was trying to think about, like, what is an outdoor breaking news story and really what, what constitutes it versus the other categories?
Eoin Comerford
00:04:29.078 - 00:04:31.610
It wasn't broken and now it's broken.
Producer Dave
00:04:31.980 - 00:04:32.980
Now it's broken.
Colin True
00:04:33.060 - 00:04:36.964
There it is. Do we put it back together. How's this work? I have so many questions.
Eoin Comerford
00:04:37.012 - 00:04:38.452
So many. All right.
Colin True
00:04:38.476 - 00:05:23.052
Well, today's opening shot is presented by Garage Grown Gear, your hub for ultralight gear.
Learn more by heading to garagegrowngear.com and today we're going to be running through sort of a grab bag of topics that have come out over the past week or so. We're recording this on Friday, April 11th.
So if anything has changed on any of these topics since we've recorded this episode, that's why coming out next Wednesday or the Wednesday you're listening to this.
And first up, as I just mentioned in the open, on Monday's episode of the Rock Fight, you'll hear when Owen and I were recording with biolite CEO Jonathan Seder.
And when the news dropped about the rollback of the tariffs and Liberation Day apparently came with only a six day shelf life as the Trump administration rolled back most of those tariffs that we talked about on last Monday's episode of Shutting down.
Eoin Comerford
00:05:23.236 - 00:05:25.280
Are we no longer liberated, Colin?
Colin True
00:05:25.710 - 00:05:27.046
We're not liberated anymore.
Eoin Comerford
00:05:27.078 - 00:05:27.650
No.
Colin True
00:05:28.350 - 00:05:33.410
We're shackled and that episode is now meaningless. So they took an episode away from us.
Eoin Comerford
00:05:33.790 - 00:05:35.730
Oh, it's coming back, trust me.
Colin True
00:05:36.430 - 00:05:40.342
We'll just rerun it when it comes. We're putting the numbers back in like, oh good, we already did.
Producer Dave
00:05:40.366 - 00:05:49.410
That episode, Liberation Day just made me think of like two shipping containers kissing on a Paris street or something like that to announce the end of the war.
Colin True
00:05:51.550 - 00:06:18.930
Well, the end of the war has not really come because our overall situation really hasn't improved that much because there's still a baseline percent left in place while also Mr. President ratcheted up our trade conflict with China. The one agreed to thing is that this is prob.
What this, that is problematic with this initiative is the chaos that is occurring and that issue contains unabated.
But Owen, can you walk us through some of the details of what we got going on right now that's probably different from the last time we talked about tariffs here on the pod.
Eoin Comerford
00:06:19.090 - 00:08:18.720
So as you mentioned, that baseline 10% tariff is still in place. And it's amazing how your mental model changes right to where it's like, oh, it's only 10%, no big deal.
Whereas before all of this craziness started, the worry was that that's what it would be, that it would just be a blanket 10%. So we've changed our mental model a bit.
Oh, it's only that's actually a big deal and it's going to still be inflationary because it's on Pretty much every single thing that comes into this country. So yeah, let's not gloss over that.
But obviously the big thing was that they paused these retaliatory tariffs that were above the 10% baseline that impacted 50 plus countries, anywhere from 11% to whatever it was, 54%. Of course, the big thing was one country did not get this pause and that was China.
And on various back and forth, literal sort of tit for tat escalations were now at 125% tariff on China. That doesn't include the two previous 10% bumps. So now we're actually 145%. Okay.
And that in turn doesn't include the tariffs that were in place before that.
So the regular MFN base tariff rates, which are anywhere from 0 to 28%, plus the section 232 and 301 tariffs from the first Trump presidency that again are anywhere from 7.5% to 25%. So you add all that up together and you're basically at potentially 200% tariffs on a product from China.
Like our fictional rain jacket from the last time we talked about this, 200%. And then of course there's the Venezuelan oil importer, which would add another 25% if they decided to go with that.
So you're at basically you're at least tripling the cost of something coming from China.
Colin True
00:08:19.420 - 00:08:25.280
I think I was making the same face with my jaw open when you told me it was going to be 132% last week.
Eoin Comerford
00:08:25.820 - 00:08:31.764
Yeah, now we're at 220 something. Yeah. But yeah, pretty much. It's awesome.
Colin True
00:08:31.892 - 00:08:39.364
I mean, I can't imagine. I mean, I am a little. This is the topic. I am worried that by the time this episode comes out, there's some other radical change.
Eoin Comerford
00:08:39.452 - 00:08:41.280
It'll be 300% by then.
Colin True
00:08:42.110 - 00:08:44.262
Right? I mean, what do you think happens next year?
Eoin Comerford
00:08:44.366 - 00:09:34.030
Well, I mean, so first of all, for every brand that has production outside of China, like last Wednesday was the starting gun to get as much stuff over here as you possibly can. Right. And so everybody is rushing. So July 7th is when that 90 day pause ends.
And so the interesting thing, I was talking to some folks who are kind of in the supply chain side. I wouldn't call myself a supply chain expert by any stretch.
But for the bigger brands, like the north faces of the world, those sorts of guys, they would typically be looking to be X factory with their first big order by the end of May, delivering by July 1st.
So for that first big order, actually this is a pretty big reprieve for the outdoor industry because that first big order now should come in under the wire, theoretically, right?
Colin True
00:09:34.410 - 00:09:35.474
Theoretically, yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:09:35.522 - 00:11:20.590
But the problem is the second orders, right, which come in for, to fill out and asaps and all that other stuff, those would typically be another couple of months or a month down the road. So, you know, can those be rushed to get into the wire? Don't know.
Also then the smaller brands who don't have that big, you know, wholesale presence and et cetera, they typically get produced after, you know, so they're kind of bumped further, further out and they would usually be receiving their product for fall in August, maybe even early September. And so for them it's like, okay, you know, now they're scrambling, talking to the factories, can we get, you know, bumped up in the line?
And it's much harder there, right? I mean, you know, the north face obviously has a lot more pull in terms of production schedules than a, you know, than a lives in, for example.
So I think it's going to be interesting and then, you know, it's going to come down to, you know, you're getting down to the wire, you know, do you put it on a boat and hope that there isn't a big backup at Long beach, right? I mean, think about that. You know, you're there, right? You've got a product, it's on the boat. It was supposed to get there by July 5th, right?
You were, okay, okay.
But now there's 60 container ships out offshore at Long beach and you're just watching, watching the clock, like, oh fuck, if we don't get this thing in the next day we're going to be paying an extra 40 something percent. So it's going to get ugly. And then the other thing is air freight, right?
So people are probably going to be air freighting stuff all over the place, which is great for the planet and, and it's just going to get super expensive there. So it's, you know, you pay the air freight, do you pay the tariff? It's just, it's going to be ugly.
Colin True
00:11:22.290 - 00:11:55.580
I got to think, I mean you assume that some of the pressure for them to roll this back was on the fact that so many people were starting to call the White House going hey man, like no, you can't do this.
Just fingers crossed that July 7th hits and they don't just like put, go back into place at some point you would think that maybe like that doesn't happen anymore.
Like those numbers that were, that were announced on Liberation Day, we don't hear much about them anymore, then we're just stuck with the 10% that we have to deal with. But it's the chaos that we just don't know. I mean, that is just truly, and you don't know how to plan for it.
And that is truly the worst part of all of this actually.
Eoin Comerford
00:11:55.620 - 00:12:11.284
I mean, as I've been digging in here, I don't think that it actually was people because Trump is so bullheaded. What actually freaked people out was the fact that the bond market and went sideways.
Colin True
00:12:11.412 - 00:12:13.732
And so he didn't think that was going to happen.
Eoin Comerford
00:12:13.756 - 00:13:18.470
No, because basically what ended up happening was because usually so a stock market goes down, usually when the stock market goes down, the bond market goes up because people run to, you know, run to the safety of U.S. treasuries.
But what's happening is we've pissed off so many people in the world that they were, that they, that they were dumping US Treasuries because they, you know, there's lack of confidence in the US Market so they're dumping US Treasuries.
And so when, when, when there isn't enough of a market for these Treasuries because they're issuing these Treasuries all the time to pay for the debt, right?
And so they're issuing these Treasuries and people weren't buying and so they had to, you know, up that well, we'll give you this much instead of, you know, whatever. So, so that was the thing that freaked people out because like, oh shit, if people don't buy US Treasuries, we're screwed.
Because that's how, you know, we're, we're, you know, we're, it's like we're on an adjustable, an adjustable rate mortgage, right, for this country and that, the rates. So yeah, I think that was the, that was the really bigger issue in the whole deal.
Colin True
00:13:19.650 - 00:13:30.522
But the 10% is in place, right? So back to school. Expect prices to be a little more than like last year's back to school.
And then hopefully if that's, if this is truly what it is and things can get, you know, but, but, but.
Eoin Comerford
00:13:30.546 - 00:14:36.032
Let'S, let's remember it's a 90, it's only a 90 day pause, right? And you know, we had a 30 day pause on the, on the, the Canadian Mexican piece and, and that ended up the 25 did roll on.
Now there was some, obviously some still exemption around the, the, the Free Trade Agreement, the usmca, but I don't think that they're gone. Right. So supposedly now it's like we've got 90 days to negotiate, which is like. Oh, 90 days.
That seems like a long time when, you know, previously they basically only gave a week's worth of notice before these things were put in place. But that's not the way trade agreements work. Trade agreements take years to put together.
Like the usmca, which was based on the framework of NAFTA before, which took years to negotiate. The USMCA took 13 months to negotiate. And that was one agreement with three countries took 13 months.
We've got over 50 countries that we're going to try to negotiate complex trade agreements with in 90 days. Good luck.
Colin True
00:14:36.176 - 00:14:45.040
Well, oh, and we all know that he's the master negotiator. That's what he's best at, right? Art of the Deal. He wrote a book.
Eoin Comerford
00:14:45.080 - 00:15:07.800
The reason these things take so long is because trade is incredibly complex. There's all sorts of constituencies you've got to take into account. There's all sorts of potential unintended consequences if you don't get it right.
And I mean, we rush this thing. It could, you could end up with a worse scenario potentially if things aren't really thought through. But hey, what do I know?
Producer Dave
00:15:07.920 - 00:16:08.520
Well, just let's bring it back to kind of, kind of outdoor. Like, are we, you know, are the top end of our, of our industry is already kind of seen as a luxury good in many quarters.
I mean, some brands certainly play into that.
But just, you know, are we going to see that middle, middle part of our, of our product offering and price points go up to maybe even put them into that luxury status that then distance their ability for most people to buy?
You know, I'm just, what, what is the kind of, what is the out, you know, the outlook for, for that type of movement even in the short term with this uncertainty? You know, we're going to see something. But is that a larger issue than just prices are going up?
There's the perception, I mean, are we, I mean, I even. I would ask the same question if I was talking to, you know, other retailers, but outdoors specifically.
I mean, are we going to see like, what is it, Neiman, Walmart or something, you know, where all of a sudden everything is just going to get, get jacked up.
Eoin Comerford
00:16:09.060 - 00:17:24.140
I think it's going to be interesting because obviously there's, I do agree and believe that there is an affordability challenge with our industry. And it's not that, you know, everyone's making boatloads of margin along the way. It's just that these are Expensive products to make.
So I do see the potential that over time that the industry and certain brands within the industry may look to develop products that hit certain price points that get left behind if we have short term inflation. So there might be some decontenting, maybe changing materials, changing of supply chains, et cetera, but you can't do that overnight.
That's like an 18 month process. I think there's an opportunity for secondhand here. I know that came up in a pod that you did earlier.
Earlier last week, Colin and I saw the same thing and had a conversation with a different journalist about that because certainly that is a major potential. It's already something for younger folks that can't afford outdoor.
So I think it'll just accelerate the used market, especially for newer, younger outdoor enthusiasts.
Colin True
00:17:24.810 - 00:17:55.876
Yeah, that was perfect segue. That was the one I was going to ask.
Last week we were talking, I was talking with Kyle Frost and he floated that idea that, you know, secondhand is the one area there that could really thrive. It's a great observation. Right, because you know, we, we always say, hey, we have enough stuff, we make too much stuff.
Well, a lot of that stuff is already here. No, no tariffs required. We're good. So I mean, is that, is that like, hey, gear trade, rev up the advertising.
I was like, is that where you would pivot to if you were sitting in the, in a chair like at a gear trade or an out and back or even at a specialty retailer who, who dabbles in secondhand?
Eoin Comerford
00:17:55.988 - 00:18:14.772
I think the. Certainly in specialty retail, if I don't already have a consignment or a used model, I would look to get that in place.
And then gear trade, I think I would wait until the inflation starts to hit and then I would position gear trade as the answer to all this Inflation.
Colin True
00:18:14.836 - 00:18:15.156
Right?
Eoin Comerford
00:18:15.228 - 00:18:15.668
Yeah.
Colin True
00:18:15.764 - 00:18:56.612
All right, well, we've talked enough about tariffs for a second week in a row. I'm sure we'll talk about it again next week too. But the other big news story this past week was the acquisition of Jack Wolf's Skin by.
Did we say Anta or is it A N T A or Anta? Anta. Okay. Anta, which is the majority owner of Amer Sports.
Last time we spoke about Jack Wolfskin, which for my money still one of the best names guys in the outdoors should be a character in a future John Wick movie. Jack Wolf Skin is a great name, but was was when the brand departed the US Marketplace after failing to gain traction over here.
Curious what that news might mean for a possible revival of those efforts. But, oh, and let's start with the fact and figures, facts and figures. You know, what's the story behind the sale of Jack Wolfskin?
Eoin Comerford
00:18:56.676 - 00:19:52.544
First of all, we should. We should look at, you know, who. Who is onto sports as a. Most of.
Obviously most of our audience here is in the US and maybe hadn't heard of them, maybe even just outside of the fact that they are the majority owner of Amer Sports, which, you know, I think, as most people know, is the parent company of Arc'teryx, Solomon Atomic, etc. So we'll see. Big player. You know, Amer Sports is, I think, close to a 5 billion dol company. But Anta by itself is no slouch.
They are the dominant sports brand in China. They had 2024 revenues of almost 10 billion. They have 12,000 stores globally.
And then in China, they own the retail stores for Anta itself, its own bespoke brand. But then they also own Fila. They had descent. Is it decent or disente. How do. How do you pronounce it? I guess D. Oh, yes, that makes perfect sense.
Producer Dave
00:19:52.592 - 00:19:52.816
Yes.
Eoin Comerford
00:19:52.848 - 00:20:47.204
Thank you. The colon sports brands with a K just for those at home. And they also run the retail for all the AMER sports brands, including Arc'teryx.
And Arc'teryx has a ton of stores in China. Actually, Arc'teryx's sales in Q4 were up 54% in China and it's becoming one of their biggest markets.
So, yeah, I mean, they are an absolute powerhouse in the Chinese market in the sports and outdoor segment. So in terms of the deal itself, the price was 290 million. Okay.
Which sounds like a lot until you hear that, actually Callaway Golf, this is before they were the whole topgolf thing, but Callaway Golf paid 476 million for Jack Wolf skin. Yeah. In November of 2018 is right.
Colin True
00:20:47.292 - 00:20:47.764
That's rough.
Producer Dave
00:20:47.812 - 00:20:51.438
Yeah. Yeah. Wasn't that always kind of a weird fit, though?
Colin True
00:20:51.494 - 00:20:53.730
I was. Took the words out of my mouth, Dave.
Eoin Comerford
00:20:54.310 - 00:21:53.912
Totally. I think everyone was like, hey, what will you be here? And so actually, I remember I was at or shortly after.
It was probably in maybe the summer of or of 2019, and the leadership from Callaway was in the Jack Wolfskin booth. So we met with them and we were one of the kind of the earlier we, Moose Cho, were one of the earlier retail partners for Jack Wilken.
So we're talking to them and they were really just like, hey, yeah, what's this whole outdoor industry thing? I'm like, okay, good luck.
But yeah, I think part of the thought process was there was a regional fish because Jack Wilskin obviously very strong in Europe, but even then very strong in China, whereas obviously Callaway very strong in the US and also I think Callaway was looking to get more into apparel, whereas. And Jack Wilson had a lot of that capability. So that was the thought process. But yeah, I don't think it ever really kind of worked.
Colin True
00:21:53.976 - 00:22:02.600
Yeah, I mean, I don't know golf's outdoor.
Like, you know, there's some shared technology that you could, you could make a case for, but it just, the cultures just really don't mesh well together.
Producer Dave
00:22:02.720 - 00:22:29.836
I think way back when, I could be wrong, but I think Quicksilver acquired Cleveland Golf a long time ago, which again was at the beginning of their kind of end, frankly. Right. As they started to get over their skis and, and bigger than the beach, for sure.
But there's always this attractiveness to go to, you know, that adjacent category. Like you said, they probably logically made a lot of sense. Oh yeah, we're outside, they're outside.
Colin True
00:22:29.988 - 00:22:32.400
Why? Need some waterproof stuff, insulation.
Producer Dave
00:22:32.740 - 00:22:49.568
Right. But you know, Jack Wolfgang, I always kind of see them as, they're like the European Columbia, right.
They're a price sensitive middle brand, but, you know, lot of categories, a lot of good product, a lot of functionality to it, you know, but always had a treble.
Colin True
00:22:49.644 - 00:22:53.224
Dave, think of just what you could do with that name if you were the creative director for Jack Wilson.
Producer Dave
00:22:53.272 - 00:22:57.912
Jack Wilson, you know, you know, it's off of. It's like Jack London, right. It's like that's where they get it.
Colin True
00:22:57.936 - 00:23:01.624
Back old school, like survival, adventure.
Producer Dave
00:23:01.752 - 00:23:23.764
And they are that.
I mean, I could, we wouldn't know in this country, but in the 80s they were a huge force in the rise of actually of what, you know, as we know from polar of fleece. Right.
And that whole outdoor look that Patagonia then and North Face would later on take, but really important to the growth of the modern outdoor industry as a lifestyle. No doubt about it.
Eoin Comerford
00:23:23.852 - 00:23:35.316
I think the Colombian analogy is. Is close, but I would say actually. And that's maybe in the, like the core of the Jack Wilson line, but they go higher, I would say. Yeah, they do.
Producer Dave
00:23:35.468 - 00:23:36.308
That's exactly right.
Eoin Comerford
00:23:36.364 - 00:23:41.588
Some, some very technical pieces at the high end and they, they span wider than, than a Columbia in my mind.
Producer Dave
00:23:41.724 - 00:23:43.684
Right, no doubt. Right, no doubt.
Colin True
00:23:43.812 - 00:23:51.012
So, Owen, why do we think the. Do we know why the price came down so much or why they're selling it at a loss compared to where they acquired it? For acquired it for in 2018.
Eoin Comerford
00:23:51.116 - 00:24:52.890
Really. I think it just comes down to when it was acquired.
In 2018, they announced that Jack Wolskin had net sales of 380 million and adjusted EBITDA with profitability basically of 40 million, which is. That's a nice profitability rate over 10%. Fast forward to today and top golf Callaway brands, the number that was selling them, it really does.
For 2025, they had estimate Jack Wolfskin sales were going to be 374 million. So basically flash to where they were, you know, almost. What is that, six, six and a half years ago. But the adjusted ebitda was only 13.4 million. So.
Yeah. And you know, a lot of these deals are based on multiples of ebitda. So yeah, really, the haircut was all about the. Was all about the ebitda.
Colin True
00:24:53.550 - 00:25:05.574
Can we, can we look at the failed US Attempt as a, as a player here? Was that a big, huge strain on trying to establish the brand, money spent, that kind of thing, or is that not even a factor?
Eoin Comerford
00:25:05.622 - 00:25:22.182
Yeah, it sort of had the feeling of the Callaway, the top golf Callaway folks kind of just throwing in. Right. Like if you think of it as a card game, just like, okay, we're kind of done here. We're moving on. The vision is dead.
Let's see what we can do with this thing.
Producer Dave
00:25:22.206 - 00:25:45.090
Yeah, tried so hard. I mean, again, the only reason you knew they were entering the market is because there were stories in the business about them entering the market.
There was no flood of advertising or promotion or any kind of awareness building. And we follow these places and they were just quiet.
Eoin Comerford
00:25:45.170 - 00:25:45.778
But that's.
Producer Dave
00:25:45.874 - 00:25:46.750
I don't understand.
Eoin Comerford
00:25:47.930 - 00:26:32.198
I see this all the time with European brands trying to enter the US Market. They're like, everyone knows who we are, you know, so we're going to go in there and everyone's going to, you know, that's.
And then the other thing is they look at their, you know, hey, what sells in Europe? What are our core products in Europe? Well, that's what we'll enter the US Market with. Well, guess what?
Your core products in Europe, we have 15 different versions of that over here already have the same thing. We don't need that. Okay.
If you're going to come into the market, actually think about the US Market and figure out how you're going to get in here and actually create demand for the brand. If you think selling into Mouster or our AI is going to magically just create demand.
When a consumer walks in the door and Sees a brand they've never heard of, it just doesn't work like that.
Colin True
00:26:32.254 - 00:26:38.838
So why does this make sense for ANTA at this point? Like, why do you think this is? Like, you know, what, what is, what do they see in that that they don't already have in their portfolio?
Eoin Comerford
00:26:39.014 - 00:27:01.748
Really, what I think what it gives them is it gives them a quasi mass market outdoor brand for the Chinese market specifically. Right. Because the China. China market is. Loves the whole outdoor thing.
I'm not sure how much there's true, you know, outdoor recreation, how much that's part of it versus just the outdoor look, the technical look.
Colin True
00:27:01.804 - 00:27:05.652
Yeah, See the whole techwear thing. Right. Like, look like I was talking to.
Eoin Comerford
00:27:05.676 - 00:27:19.972
Somebody about, about arc'teryx, which again, huge in, in China. And their comment was, yeah, you see a lot more arc'teryx, though, on the golf course than you do on the trail.
And so it's almost like, because, yeah, it's luxury. That's. That's a.
Producer Dave
00:27:19.996 - 00:27:20.324
That's.
Eoin Comerford
00:27:20.372 - 00:27:41.238
That's like, that's the premium luxury outdoor brand in China. So that. So this is basically saying, okay, Jack Wolfskin is going to be more of the mass. Mass sub, premium brand.
And you know, I mean, they already have jack wolfskin. That is 260 stores in China, which is more than they have in all of Europe. Right. So.
Colin True
00:27:41.294 - 00:27:41.686
Oh yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:27:41.718 - 00:27:44.758
I mean, this is already an established player.
Producer Dave
00:27:44.814 - 00:27:50.960
They've been making a push for a few years in terms of China, like even from Germany, like definitely focus.
Eoin Comerford
00:27:51.080 - 00:28:28.034
They, I mean, at one point they announced that they wanted to get to 700 stores in China.
That obviously didn't happen under the prior ownership, but I think they're going to get there with anta, because if there's one thing ANTA knows how to do, it is run a retail store network in China. And so, yeah, so that's definitely.
And also, maybe not coincidentally, but actually the current CEO, Matthew Young, he who's now the global president CEO of Jack Wolskin, he was previously the GM for China for Jack Wilken. So, you know, he's very much aligned with that whole thing.
Colin True
00:28:28.122 - 00:29:04.792
So you think, I mean, there really wasn't any bad PR to them done here in the States. You think at some point they come back, they think about moving back into this market? I mean, is there even an upside to doing that?
Because, I mean, if they're, if they're, if the model they have found that works for them is in China with their own stores, well, we know them coming here to open a bunch of stores in the US wouldn't be a great idea. So you'd have to have a really strong wholesale, you know, plan to actually break it into you guys.
Point like that would include advertising and how do you differentiate what's the product line, all that stuff. It's still an uphill battle even if you're better prepared for it than maybe you were the last time.
Do you think that's in the cards or do you think they kind of like, hey, let's just focus on China and then we'll see where we are down the road?
Eoin Comerford
00:29:04.896 - 00:29:51.540
That's what I would figure because I think that's where they see the most opportunity in the short term. America will always be appealing though because it is such a big market. It's out there. Sometimes some brands just can't help themselves.
And I think if they did come back, they would come back with a lot more learning and thought about how to do it. I think there would actually be a physical retail presence. That's the direction certainly that arc'teryx is going.
And it would be much more of a hybrid than trying to just lean on a pure wholesale approach. You'd see Jack Wilson stores in major markets. There'd be much more of an overall brand approach and then the selling at wholesale.
Producer Dave
00:29:51.620 - 00:30:02.132
I wonder the question, will they be put under the Ammer wing of this just from an oversight perspective just because it does seem to blend more naturally with some of those businesses.
Eoin Comerford
00:30:02.276 - 00:30:55.190
Actually when I first saw the story, my brain skipped over the anti part to Amer and when I first went outlinked in, I thought it was Amer that I bought them because it makes a ton of sense. Right? Right. But no, I don't think so. And the only reason I say that is because of corporate structure.
ANTA is the majority owner of Amer and they control the board, but still I think it's 58% maybe is what the ownership is. So I think it would be tricky structurally to have any kind of true integration or coordination there. But you never know.
I mean you can structure different things, different international approaches. Like as I said, ANTA runs the Amer sports retail locations in China.
So there certainly is going to be some, just some back office coordination stuff there.
Producer Dave
00:30:56.210 - 00:30:58.554
Did we forget Salomon again?
Eoin Comerford
00:30:58.722 - 00:31:00.634
I threw Solomon earlier.
Producer Dave
00:31:00.722 - 00:31:09.274
Oh, you did? Good. It just made me. Because we've been talking about these apparel brands and apparently like oh my gosh, did we forget that Anta Owens I.
Colin True
00:31:09.282 - 00:31:18.810
Was actually going to give. Oh and shit, like we don't mention Solomon on this podcast. Ok? We have established that Solomon gets omitted anytime we talk about Solomon Free zone.
Producer Dave
00:31:18.890 - 00:31:20.714
Solomon Free zone. Wait a minute.
Eoin Comerford
00:31:20.762 - 00:31:21.642
Did we freak?
Producer Dave
00:31:21.706 - 00:31:35.316
Oh, my gosh. The other thing, too, is we just kind of pass right over topgolf Callaway, like, in that order.
That's like the playground buying McDonald's, like, are you kidding me? Like, and we just accept that.
Eoin Comerford
00:31:35.468 - 00:31:41.284
I believe they're actually. I think they're restructuring as well to split those two apart, but I see.
Colin True
00:31:41.372 - 00:31:47.780
Okay, that is funny. Anything else on that, guys? That we should just grimace running around.
Producer Dave
00:31:47.820 - 00:31:48.756
Swinging a golf club.
Colin True
00:31:48.828 - 00:31:53.956
The playground buying McDonald's is pretty. Topgolf's huge, though, man.
Producer Dave
00:31:54.108 - 00:31:55.876
I know that. Oh, absolutely.
Eoin Comerford
00:31:55.988 - 00:31:57.076
It makes sense.
Colin True
00:31:57.268 - 00:32:04.464
I'm not a golfer, but I would go to topgolf, like, if you guys, hey, let's go to topgolf and have a beer and, like, hit some golf balls. Like, all right. Why not? You know, like to take out a.
Eoin Comerford
00:32:04.472 - 00:32:07.456
Mortgage before you go. That is an expensive outing, let me tell you.
Colin True
00:32:07.528 - 00:32:08.352
It really is.
Producer Dave
00:32:08.456 - 00:32:09.312
It is.
Colin True
00:32:09.496 - 00:32:10.656
And there's always a wait.
Eoin Comerford
00:32:10.768 - 00:32:19.936
I don't think I've ever been to Top Golf where I wasn't there on some kind of expense account. Yeah, it's the classic.
Colin True
00:32:20.048 - 00:32:21.488
Oh, we're going to go to topgolf later.
Eoin Comerford
00:32:21.544 - 00:32:24.540
It's like, hey, everybody, it's the company get together.
Producer Dave
00:32:25.400 - 00:32:27.296
That's right. It's something for everyone.
Eoin Comerford
00:32:27.448 - 00:33:12.420
I think the one.
One last comment I would have on this is, is just the level of appreciation around the fact that anta, with all of their sort of tentacles here, whether it's their own $10 million business themselves, plus add in another 5 billion or so in the Amer Sports piece. Now we add in a Jack Wilskin. I mean, they're dwarfing the F Corp just in the grand scheme of things.
So it's like, not quite, but if you added, like, Dick Sporting Goods and VF Corp together, you'd kind of have ANTA today maybe within a few billion dollars. But they are a massive player now. Absolutely massive.
Colin True
00:33:12.920 - 00:33:36.900
All right, last thing, and this is a little bit of a, I guess, older news at this point, but we haven't had a chance for the three of us to weigh in on it yet. So last week, you know, rei, their new CEO, Mary Beth Lawton, walked back the endorsement of Doug Burgum and a very public. In a video.
It was on YouTube, Instagram, kind of all the socials. Very earnest, very well, very well done. I mentioned it a little bit on the pod last week, but, you know, what do you guys think?
Eoin Comerford
00:33:37.600 - 00:34:36.840
I. I liked it. I thought it was, again, it was just a single, you know, iPhone phone video.
It wasn't, you know, filmed in some corporate studio on a shop floor in a store. That was a vest, the whole. The whole deal. So I thought that was great. And it was.
First of all, not only did they walk it back, but they apologized, they said it was a mistake, and then they came in firmly against the actions of the current administration and vowing to really do everything that they could to stand up for public lands in this situation. So I thought those are all the right moves.
But it was really interesting because I posted about it and where I was supporting it, basically, what I just said. And it got over 600 likes. So I think most people were aligned with me in the likes part. But the comments were all over the place. A lot of the.
Colin True
00:34:36.960 - 00:34:45.048
And go off, Go on Instagram going. It's all like, hey, great first move. Now you need to do bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.
Like, just a million things that people want them to do.
Producer Dave
00:34:45.104 - 00:34:45.432
Yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:34:45.496 - 00:35:18.020
And it's tough.
And yeah, I'm so tired of all of these purity tests that people on the left tend to throw at different folks, whether it's corporate leaders or individuals or whatever. It's just like, look, if you're in a foxhole, right, do you care about if the person next to you was a drafty or a volunteer? No.
You don't give a shit how you got there. You're in it together. And let's just go and address the enemy. Enemy. Right.
Colin True
00:35:18.480 - 00:35:18.936
Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:35:19.008 - 00:35:43.384
But no, it's like this whole purity test bullshit that really, really pisses me off.
It's like, let's take our energy, and instead of attacking the people that are on our side, let's attack the other people, the people that are actually attacking public lands. How's that for a fucking idea? But no, everyone's got to.
All these, you know, these keyboard warriors have got to get their, you know, get their little piece in their dig in about whatever. It's like, come on, people. If you. If you.
Colin True
00:35:43.472 - 00:35:44.580
There was someone who.
Producer Dave
00:35:45.680 - 00:35:47.588
I would say, avoid Reddit.
Colin True
00:35:47.784 - 00:36:39.410
Oh, I'm sure. No. And it's like, by the way, how many often do we say that both two things can be true at the same time?
It doesn't mean that they're, like, absolved from any criticism on other things, but, like, they just focus on this one thing. And you look at. There was someone. I think it was.
I think it was on your thread, Owen, Somebody commented about, like, you know, I can't believe you signed this Letter, you've lost credibility thing.
And it's like, this person, you obviously don't even know what the letter is that you're talking about, because if you saw the other names that were the signatories on those letters, and this is the only one who has walked it back. Like, and I'm not saying that everybody needs to, but it's like, this is an important one.
Not necessarily because even she walked back, but because she's responding to her customers. And the feedback for the people who support REI have been overwhelming in favor of this. And she's like, okay, let's do that.
And it's like, you gotta give a little bit of, all right, good job. Now, if you want to separately, then criticize something else separately, great. But why do you gotta drag it all into this one thing?
Producer Dave
00:36:39.530 - 00:36:41.234
All of it into. Yeah, all of it.
Colin True
00:36:41.322 - 00:36:41.858
Every single time.
Producer Dave
00:36:41.914 - 00:37:02.618
I think it was well done, too. Well produced, well executed. Exactly what you wanted is an earnest. Just kind of like, reset the table.
Everybody knew you screwed up, so might as well glad to know that you did too, and move on. But I do want to read one. This is one of the nicer comments, and this is from kayakgirl88, and she.
Colin True
00:37:02.674 - 00:37:04.778
Says this is on Reddit.
Producer Dave
00:37:04.954 - 00:37:28.400
While the apology is nice, the action speaks louder. I want to hear the board of trustees. They're the ones who screwed up, broke trust and faith. And I thought that was actually a fairly good.
Like, you know, it gets to the heart. Everything else is about their union activity and. Yeah, what is it? Co op, my ass. You know, things like that. But I thought that one was pretty good.
Colin True
00:37:28.520 - 00:37:47.602
They're. They're writing this on their phone while they're in REI buying a new pair of ultras. You know, like, it's just like, come on.
But, Dave, from a creative standpoint, like, our friend Justin Ousman brought this up of, like, do you think, you know, how many times before they shot the video, did they shoot one with the vest on, with the vest off? Like, you know, how did they dress it, you know, from the creative side?
Producer Dave
00:37:47.626 - 00:37:52.738
Oh, at least four or five colorways of vest. Do we go long sleeve? Do we go vest? Do we go fleece?
Colin True
00:37:52.834 - 00:37:54.270
Name tag about it?
Producer Dave
00:37:55.450 - 00:38:02.910
No name tag. You know, the green vest would have been a little too much, so they had to use the puffy, right? No, no. You know, all that went down.
Colin True
00:38:05.690 - 00:38:47.064
All right, well, listen, you know, we have definitely been critical of REI on the show, but this is one that. You got this one right. It's good. And we. And we have reached to rei. We would love to have Mary Beth come on the show.
I think this would be a great forum for her to come on the show and speak to some of the stuff that we're talking about. So hopefully, folks in Seattle, if you hear this, we'd love to have Mary Beth on. All right, let's take a quick break.
Then we're gonna come back with producer Dave, who's gonna do the parting shot today and weigh in on a rock that was thrown at us about AI imagery to promote our good work. So st. You're listening to Rock Flight Radio. My God, is that Fitz's music? You know it is. Get ready for There's a smile on my toes.
FITS!
00:38:47.192 - 00:39:54.320
Woke up this morning feeling so alive Sunshine in my step Making my spirit jive Hope for comfort Rapping is so sweet Dancing on clouds with every beat There's a smile on my toes every single day Cool and warm together in a brilliant play Free range toe box lets my feet sing Fits is the joy that each new step brings Deep heel pocket hugging me just right Fine gauge merino soft like the moonlight Laughing and skipping Feeling so flat in a happy place with every spine There's a smile on my toes every single day Cool and warm together.
Colin True
00:40:06.070 - 00:40:48.288
That was There's a smile on my toes from Fitz. Cause that's what whole foot comfort looks like. New spring styles are in stores now. Didn't get your orders in? No need to cry. Just send Judy.
You know Judy. Everyone knows Judy. Send Judy an email@customerserviceitsock.com and she'll turn those frowns upside down up. Tell your feet that we said hi.
And now back to the show. All right, we're back with the parting shot, and producer Dave's gonna take this one. We got a listener email, and this.
This email has some thoughts and that he writes. This person writes, hi, rock fighters. Which, by the way, I love that he called us rock fighters. Trying to get that going.
Eoin Comerford
00:40:48.424 - 00:40:49.232
Get that going.
Colin True
00:40:49.336 - 00:40:50.480
Here's my rock.
Eoin Comerford
00:40:50.640 - 00:40:52.190
You're trying to get that guy going.
Colin True
00:40:52.730 - 00:41:44.972
Yeah, well, you know, everyone's a rock fighter. You're listening to the rock fight. You're a rock fighter. Here's my rock to throw. What's your justification for the use of generative AI?
Of generative AI to promote the show? How does that jive with your perception of creatives and storytellers in the outdoors?
What would your editorial policy be for AI generated podcast hosts? How is that different from illustrative work? I like the premise of the show and network, but your Visuals feel incongruous to the that premise.
Thank you. And he signs off.
So, Dave, you have a background as a creative, as a creative director, you've worked in brands, you have led our sort of charge into kind of understanding AI better in terms of how and when to deploy it, because you wanted to add that to your quiver. As a creative person in this new world. When it comes to AI, how would you respond to this listener question?
Producer Dave
00:41:45.156 - 00:43:58.464
Well, how would I respond to this? I think definitely your views on AI are going to be different from what side of the equation you're coming from.
Look, as a, as a, somebody who grew up as a copywriter, if I was a young copywriter or I was an illustrator or a photographer, people have to create. I would absolutely look at AI as an existential threat.
It is going to take jobs, just as it will take jobs from the legal profession, the medical profession, the accounting profession and all host of other white collar creator jobs. This is no different than robotics in the 70s in terms of hollowing out manufacturing and creating jobs that there were no actual replacements for.
Did it get rid of all of those jobs? No, but it created a much more unique and bespoke area where those jobs would condense to.
So we don't have millions of people building cars anymore in this country. We have a lot less at the very high end. We have people who are still craftspeople at that. Okay, very bespoke artisans.
We do not have people blowing glass in the same way or wrought iron fence makers in the same army of them building all of this stuff.
So technology, and let's call it a lack of taste for that bottom line and that most functional element has dwindled those jobs to be very bespoke as well.
So I think that's what we're seeing here in the, the commercial creative class is that AI is gonna pinch hollow out the middle and the junior areas and it's gonna just. There will always be room for very talented musicians, artists, illustrators. They're gonna be able to brand themselves.
They're gonna have a unique take that people are gonna want and pay for. Absolutely. But remember, this is commercial creative. Right. This is not fine art. So businesses are gonna go for what they can afford.
What is good enough for them. I mean, right now, as often perplexed by choices companies make, oh, that could have been so much better. Right. They don't care.
It's gotta be good enough. And that's just the prevailing. I hate to say that, but that's the prevailing view amongst kind of like the business world.
Colin True
00:43:58.552 - 00:44:07.952
Sorry to interrupt the parting shot, but I mean, how many times in your career did you have incredible creative materials for a, for a brand and they chose the cheap, lesser than option?
Producer Dave
00:44:08.016 - 00:45:07.506
Always. No, that's always. And so you're always trying to solve that problem. And this is where I get to. AI is a tool to help us solve that problem.
How can I express designs, and those are designs, concepts and things that I want to do as a creative director. That's what I'm looking for. People help create these ideas that we want to go to, and it will never replace the human element of that.
I will always prefer a human illustrator to help me create a concept. Always. But right now, in terms like we talk about the podcast, what's our editorial view? Well, I'll just be frank with our listeners.
We got no money, we got no time. What am I supposed to do? Not do something? No. It's 11:00 and I got 20 minutes.
I'm trying to put this together, but we're no different than brands and startups and people trying to do the very same thing. They're just trying to do the best of what they can and trying to give themselves some kind of advantage.
And it doesn't mean that I don't want to be able to hire a whole craft of artists and people to help me do that. I just don't have the ability to.
Eoin Comerford
00:45:07.578 - 00:45:18.352
And you know, I mean, people, people certainly are going to unfortunately lose jobs to AI. But it's not just that losing jobs to AI, you're going to lose your job to somebody who uses AI better.
Colin True
00:45:18.376 - 00:45:20.848
Than you do and understands and knows.
Eoin Comerford
00:45:20.864 - 00:45:45.886
How to work out. The eye of an illustrator is still the eye of an illustrator in terms of the finished work. Now the tools are changing.
And so maybe you used to use pen and paper and then there was Photoshop and Canva and all these other things, right? And so it's, I mean, I mean, shitty AI illustrations are a dime a dozen, quite frankly. It's the really good ones.
Producer Dave
00:45:45.918 - 00:45:46.878
Well, we're really good at them.
Eoin Comerford
00:45:46.934 - 00:45:49.550
Yeah, we're really good at making really.
Producer Dave
00:45:49.590 - 00:45:50.814
Fast, really bad AI pictures.
Eoin Comerford
00:45:50.862 - 00:46:31.050
Really bad AI pictures. And so somebody that has those skills can still use those, but just, I think in a different way to get there.
The other thing here is how many times since the dawn of the Industrial Revolution have we heard about technologies that are going to basically have everybody work just working two days a week, right? I mean, you can go back, go back to the computer, go back to the, you know, electricity, keep Going back. Right.
I mean, it just doesn't happen there always. It just becomes another productivity tool and we all just keep working. Right. So I think that that's where this is going to be.
Producer Dave
00:46:31.170 - 00:47:36.130
Well, and, and you know, some of the other legitimate criticisms you're going to get, especially from the creator or creative class is, is that AI has been trained on the collective work of people and they haven't been compensated for it. And so now we're building this tool structure that's going to replace without providing any kind of compensation or acknowledge it.
And I think that is, again, none of this is clear and simple. It's just not. And so I totally believe we can have two realities.
AI is going to be a dominant tool in how we use commercial creative and change creativity. And it was improperly set up and stole from people to get there. So how do we help rectify that?
But the cat's out of the bag, the horses have left the barn. That's not coming back. So how do we now adjust and try to make that work and make it work? Right. But like I said, it's kind of two sides at the same.
Two sides of the same coin in that. My last bit is responding to how would we feel about, you know, an AI generated podcast host?
And I would say no different than how I view an illustrator. Sorry, Colin. As soon as we can dump all your voices into that recording.
Colin True
00:47:36.210 - 00:47:37.218
No, I disagree with this.
Producer Dave
00:47:37.274 - 00:47:45.686
Take you out of that. And we're going to have a great call and true. But again, it's going to be saying scripts written by humans. It's going to be articulating things.
Colin True
00:47:45.758 - 00:47:47.302
It's not going to happen. We're not going to do that yet.
Producer Dave
00:47:47.326 - 00:48:00.470
But it is, it's going to happen, you guys. We're going to have AI call in.
So, yeah, I just, I think it's a new tool in our toolbox and going forward, we're going to have to learn how to, how to work with it, you know, kind of positive and negative.
Colin True
00:48:00.630 - 00:48:54.122
Yeah, I mean, the first question about, you know, how to using it to promote the show, I mean, I mean, a lot of times we're promoting the show and we might make an image to promote it.
Like, you know, I would like to think that actually, like, if I don't put a post on LinkedIn or we don't put a post somewhere else, like, well, the podcast is still going to find an audience. Otherwise it's truly just like a, you know, it doesn't. I don't see the podcast as any better.
Or different because of what the image is on that it's truly just a placeholder so you have something to look at when you're clicking the link. But yeah, I mean, I will. I mean, and we've talked about it.
I mean, when the idea of that you can feed 300 plus episodes of the Rock Fight into an AI and create the show, that freaks me out a little bit. I'll admit to that. I'm not down with that. That's something to worry about.
But I do think that going back to that multiple things can be true at the same time. Yeah. I see it as a tool for the most part, and that's how we try to deploy it. But I think it's a good question. I'm glad they wrote in.
Producer Dave
00:48:54.306 - 00:49:35.552
Yeah, yeah. And look, there's still. There are environmental issues to it too. All of these things. Any technology is going to start that way.
It's not an excuse for it for sure, but that's just where we are. I don't think that's going to stay that way.
I just think that's folly to think that AI is going to stay in its current form of both energy consumption as well as, let's just say, 17 fingers on those illustrations that you can spot. It's just not. And so how are we going to incorporate that into our lives in a way that still allows us to do what we do?
If I'm a writer, if I'm a creative of any kind, I'm going to learn how to make that, make me more powerful with that and make my talents that I even more apparent.
Colin True
00:49:35.696 - 00:50:06.122
All right, we can wrap it up there today, guys. Good episode. Come back this Friday for another episode of the Rock Fight. Go back, listen to Monday's episode of the Rock Fight.
Check out the latest from the Rock Fight podcast network. Open container. The Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight llc. Our producer today was producer David Carsett. Our art direction provided by Sarah.
She's not AI Gensert. For Owen Comerford, I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening and also not AI.
We had a song written for the show, guys, and it's called the Rock Fight Fight song performed by Chris Demaikz. We're going to play that for you right now. We'll see you next time.
Producer Dave
00:50:06.146 - 00:50:09.098
Rock Fighters, send all complaints to Colin Troupe.
Chris DeMakes
00:50:09.114 - 00:51:04.890
Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree.
We talk about human powered outdoor activities and big bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture music, the latest movie reviews Ideas that aim for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock fight. Rock fight, Rock fight. Welcome to the right side.
Welcome to the rock flight. Rock flight Rock fight. Rock flight, Rock fight, Rock fight. Welcome to the rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
Producer Dave
00:51:08.310 - 00:51:09.510
Rock fight.