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Today Gear & Beer is here to help you make good decisions!
No doubt you've heard a lot about how our outdoor gear and apparel contain PFAS aka Forever Chemicals. But what do you need to know about PFAS when shopping for new gear and what should you do about the gear you already own that may contain PFAS?
Meg Carney (The Outdoor Minimalist) is here to help!
Meg recently produced and hosted a 10 part podcast on the topic of PFAS and as a writer, gear reviewer and outdoor enthusiast she is uniquely suited to guide the Gear & Beer audience when it comes to this touchy topic.
And today's beer pairing? A grab bag of non-alcoholic brews to limit the amount of chemicals we're putting in our body while talking all about PFAS!
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Episode Transcript
Colin (00:01):
Welcome to Gear and Beer, the podcast for Gearheads beer buffs and adventurers with discerning tastes, and the latest edition to the Rock Fight Podcast Network. I'm Colin True. I worked in the outdoor industry for over 20 years,
Justin (00:14):
And I am Justin Housman, senior editor at Adventure Journal, longtime Professional Gear Reviewer and Certified Cone, which is also known as E Beer Expert.
Colin (00:23):
Yeah, you were on break for a little while, buddy, and your intro didn't get any shorter. I'm not really happy about this. We need to go back to that.
Justin (00:29):
I was trying to get it to be longer. I should have added something during the break. I'll work on that.
Colin (00:34):
Well, today we are welcoming another podcaster. She is the host of the Outdoor Minimalist and Forever Chemicals podcast, and she's here today to help guide all of us to gear. That is PFAS Free. Please welcome Meg Cardi. Meg, welcome to the show.
Meg (00:48):
Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited.
Colin (00:51):
How often do you get to be a guest on someone else's show?
Meg (00:54):
I usually do a couple interviews throughout the year, like one a month I would say.
Colin (00:59):
Somebody was talking to me about this morning and I'm like, yeah, I should do more of those, because it's really nice to be on a podcast and not have to do really any of the prep work.
Meg (01:07):
Yeah, it's super nice. I love it.
Justin (01:09):
That's nice. Like me, Colin.
Colin (01:10):
Yeah.
(01:12):
Alright. On today's episode, we will be leveraging the knowledge that Meg has gathered through all of her research and podcast production to address one of the biggest topics to hit out the outdoor community in quite some time. P-F-A-S-A-K-A Forever Chemicals that is in our outdoor stuff. While we know more about this topic than ever before, the fire hose of information on PFAS that consumers have to deal with can be overwhelming. So today we're sort of aiming to provide a new buyer's guide of sorts, the PFAS Buyer's Guide. But before we get to that, a couple of quick housekeeping items for our gear and beer listeners. Be sure to follow and rate the show wherever you're listening. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts and that's your preferred podcast app, please leave us a written review and if you take a screenshot of that review and send it to my rock fight@gmail.com, we'll send you a gear and beer and rock fight sticker.
(01:54):
And if you haven't had enough of our voices, please check out the OG Rock Fight Podcast. The Aply named the Rock Fight, which goes up at least twice weekly. But let's get into it though. So, alright, to get into the episode, we're going to start by cracking open the beer. Now. Meg is the guest on Gear and Beer. It was up to you to decide what pairing matters the most when you're having a conversation about avoiding toxic chemicals in our outdoor gear. As one often does, this is a very common thing that people do. So what beer did you choose, Meg?
Meg (02:23):
I chose an athletic brewing company beer. Not that it, because it has less PFS, but because it's not alcoholic.
Colin (02:31):
Yeah, we have a debate. Should it be organic? What would be the, is there p ffa s in the beer we're about to drink, I imagine there might
Meg (02:37):
Be more than likely. Yeah.
Justin (02:39):
I mean, there's P FFAs in everything, Colin.
Meg (02:41):
Yeah, the problem with, especially the tin cans, not tin cans, but aluminum cans, is that they often have some type of lining, and so when it's being transported, then it will leach out the chemicals like BPA, any endocrine disruptor. Really? Yeah. Yay.
Colin (02:58):
Is this one
Justin (02:58):
Of those where you are now really burdened with this knowledge and it's impossible to unsee all the things that you've learned?
Meg (03:05):
Correct? Yes. Yes. I see it everywhere all the time.
Justin (03:08):
Well, let's lean into the PAS revolution. Let's crack open these beers, guys. Okay, so I have the Athletic, the I have the Lemon Rattler. Which one did you have Meg?
Meg (03:18):
The Upside? Don Golden.
Justin (03:21):
Oh, that's a good one. Justin, what are you drinking? I couldn't find athletic in my little town today. They were sold out, so I went with the Best Day Brewing, which is very good. They're Kolsch style. Did we do this one, Colin? I don't think we did. Best Day. We haven't done Best Day yet. Are you sure? We did Rationale and Athletic Best of the Day as the official cerone, which is a real thing. Everybody, he is a beer expert and can prove it. How do you feel about pairing the pairing of the non-alcoholic beers with this conversation? Well, I'm a little bit worried that we're implying that beer or that alcohol is a toxic chemical.
Meg (03:56):
No, we just, Colin is just being nice. I don't drink alcohol. Okay.
Justin (03:59):
Alright. It's a good pairing though, don't you think, Justin? It's a good pairing. All right. Everybody ready to crack em open? Cracking it. All right. Here we go. 3, 2, 1.
Meg (04:08):
I did it early, sorry. Oh,
Justin (04:09):
No, that's okay. A little, little vari. Cheers, everybody cheers, huh? Oh, you can taste the PFAS. God, that's a good one.
Meg (04:21):
I've never had the Rattler from Athletic Brewing. I've never seen it before.
Justin (04:25):
It's good. It's really good. This is actually the last, one of the ones that Justin and I got sent a couple of months ago. I've been saving it. I don't know why, so I'm glad I did. It worked out perfectly. Yeah. Yeah, those are good. This Best Day is fantastic. I forgot how good these are. It was the Kolsch. Yeah, it's a really good one. Does it have the tea taste we've talked about? Barely. Barely. Interesting. Wow. You know what? Almost not at all, but just right there at the very end. Have you noticed that Meg, there's a little bit of a tea flavor and a lot of non-alcoholic beers?
Meg (04:57):
No, I don't think so. No.
Justin (04:59):
Almost like a black tea flavor. Yeah. I love beer and I drink a decent amount of non-alcoholic beers for various reasons, but they tend to have a little, an astringency just by the nature of the way that they remove alcohol when they make beer. But sometimes you can taste and sometimes you can't. It kind of depends too on the other flavors that are going on with however the Brew was made and what they put in it and stuff like that. But the Rattler didn't really have much of it. I remember thinking, no, it tastes like a lemonade, honestly. It's really good. I really like this one. It's my favorite non-alcoholic beer I've ever had. Probably. Yeah. So it's like a slightly multi lemonade. Yeah, pretty much. Which is nice. Yeah, this would be really good with lemon juice in it. All right. Well, Meg, let me, let's get started by painting a picture for you. All right. Our beers are cracked. We're hanging out in one of our kitchens. We're planning an adventure. We made a list of the gear we're going to need on that adventure, and we're talking about P-F-A-S-A-K-A Forever Chemicals. And while there's been a lot of talk about the science and impact to
Colin (05:56):
PFAS, there hasn't been a lot of talk about what we can do about it. There may have been, but it still seems very much like a raw issue in our space. So, because while the facts matter here at Gear and Beer, we talk about outdoor stuff the same way you talk to your pals when you're out at the trailhead, you're at the pudding, you're on by the fire on the beach, and we don't talk about Sac height geometry or with underfoot ever. We never talk about that stuff, never once. Never once have we, except every probably episode. But we talk about the experiences, our likes and our dislikes and the everyday impact this stuff has on our lives. And that's kind of the approach we wanted have to the PFA S conversation today and why we asked you to come on, because you've done so much work now in this space and covered it in a 10 part series, specifically about PFAS. So we wanted to drill into someone listening to this and what can they take away to impact either the stuff they have or their future buying decisions. But just to give it a start, just to start, could you just give us a broad overview of PFAS? Is our gear going to kill us? What is going on with PFAS
Meg (06:56):
First? Let me just define it because I think sometimes people aren't as aware of it as you would think, but PFAS is PFAS, so it's an acronym for PUR and Polyflor Alcohol Substances. And that's a manmade chemical that was invented in 1934. And forever Chemicals is the more common term used for this class of chemicals. And when we're talking about PFAS, we're not just talking about one thing. It's depending on the expert. They'll say it's over 9,000, over 11,000, over 14,000 different chemicals that are PFAS, and they're called Forever Chemicals because they essentially last forever. So every PFAS that has ever been created still exists to this day because we're still struggling to figure out how exactly one to remove them from our bodies in the environment and also how to destroy them. And so I guess if we're talking about the uses in the outdoor industry specifically, the most common use that people would see would be in waterproof textiles.
(07:57):
So clothing tents, backpacks, and the like. There's a lot of textiles that are used in the outdoor industry, and a lot of them for performance reasons are having a waterproof coating, or they have some sort of membrane or lining that enhance that performance, not only for waterproofing, but stain resistance, Ole Felicity, so like oil resistance and actually breathability. So PFAS can do a lot of different things, which is why it is so widely used, not only in the outdoor industry, but in other consumer goods and in other types of manufacturing is because the application is so broad and chemical companies like to make money. It's also used in, I'm trying to think of some of the other product sets that would be used in the outdoor industry. One popular one that I think they're moving away from is ski wax. So if you look at a place like Park City that has a lot of ski resorts of in an isolated area, if during the ski season you go out and test the snow, you'll find PFOS and Park City's water system has now been polluted because of ski wax and P FFO s in ski wax.
Colin (09:07):
What about when did we realize it's a problem, I guess is my first question? So 19, 1930s, I mean, obviously the first applications I think mostly was in cookware and Teflon and things like that, right? Is anybody, you saw it mostly in consumer goods. Is that accurate or no?
Meg (09:20):
That's almost accurate. That's what most people would assume. But actually, the first application was in World War II and in Oak Ridge, Tennessee, they used it in holding the uranium in the atomic bomb. And so that was the first,
Justin (09:35):
I love how that ends up being involved in the little microfilm things on a toothpick or whatever. It's just amazing.
Meg (09:44):
And that's why the first episode of the Forever Chemicals podcast is called From Atomic Bombs to Teflon pans, because that's kind of the progression that it made because after the war was over DuPont, now come Moores, who essentially invented this chemical class, decided, oh, this is really valuable and this can do a lot of things, so we should make more money off of it. And so they figured out how to enter it into the consumer market. And so in the forties, fifties, that's when you started to see it in Teflon pans, and it was really kind of pandering to that tra wife era because they're like,
Justin (10:21):
Oh, was that a thing? Now, surely they wouldn't have been called that back then. No. I love the idea of the TRA wife though in her actual historical proper element. You wouldn't even really call it a, it was just wife. Just wife maybe. Yeah. This is very, I've never thought
Colin (10:37):
About it this before. No, it's a wife who doesn't do sport climbing. They use traditional placement,
Justin (10:41):
Pick
Meg (10:41):
Stuff like that. That's
Justin (10:41):
What I'm climbing. Clean climbing.
Colin (10:43):
Exactly, exactly right.
Meg (10:45):
Yeah. So Teflon was advertised pretty broadly as like, oh, this is a clean way to wash your dishes and it'll make cooking easier. Cleanup is a breeze. That's definitely
Colin (10:59):
It did. I would imagine, right? I mean, sure. God,
Justin (11:01):
Man, eggs just fly right off that stuff. Yeah.
Colin (11:04):
So when did we realize, when did they kind of discover that, oh, there might be something here, and I'm sure it's much earlier than anyone wants to admit.
Meg (11:10):
So I would say that DuPont and then 3M, Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing Company, the other chemical company associated with PFAS, most commonly they knew dating back to the 1950s. So they conduct in-house studies on PFAS and their other chemicals just to see like, oh, is this dangerous? And essentially, yes, they concluded it was dangerous. They did some really unethical studies on their workers, and I'm not sure their workers even knew that it was happening. One study, I'll have to find all of these resources and I'll send them to you, Colin, but one study that DuPont did is they laced cigarettes that they gave to the workers with PFAS to see what would happen. And it gave all those workers cancer. So that was one of the earliest ones. And they didn't really publish any of this. They kind of kept it under wraps. They shared it between chemical companies pretty openly, but it wasn't moved into the public sphere, or even broadly, scientists outside of the chemical industry until 1999, I would say. So there's about 40, 50 years that they were using these chemicals unregulated because in the United States, at least the EPA, we kind of have this thing where we're like, well, we're not going to regulate it until we know it's dangerous. And so if they hid the dangers of these chemicals, they wouldn't have to be regulated. So that was kind of their motivation. But the big story of when it came to everyone's knowledge was with lawyer Robert Ott, and then a farmer, William Tenet or Wilbur Tenet, Mr. Tenet, I'll just call him Mr.
Justin (12:45):
Wilbur. Sounds better.
Meg (12:47):
Okay. I can't remember. Farmer
Justin (12:48):
Sounds
Meg (12:48):
Farmer. The farmer tenant. And this was in Parkersburg, West Virginia. And essentially this farmer was noticing not only was he getting sick, his family was getting sick, and he was losing a lot of cattle, and they were starting to have all these weird behaviors that were atypical. A lot of wildlife was dying. There was this weird foam appearing in his streams that the cattle were drinking from. And he realized that it's because the stream was running down from a chemical dumping plant or chemical dumping ground from the DuPont Teflon plant. And so Robert Ott, he is from West Virginia, but is a practicing lawyer in Cincinnati, I believe. And Mr. Tenet knew his grandma and was like, oh, isn't your grandson environmental lawyer? And so he went all the way to Cincinnati and was like, Hey, can you help me with this problem? Showed him all the video and footage and documentation that he saved, and then 20 years later, the lawsuit was finished and they were able to get a claim for Mr. Tenet. And then they opened a new lawsuit to test all of the residents in Park Reserve, West Virginia to prove, yes, PFAS is an endocrine disruptor, can cause cancers and a variety of other health problems. And that's probably still the biggest epidemiological study that they've done on PFAS to date. It was really significant. And if you want to learn more about it, you can watch the film Dark Waters on Netflix. That's a dramatization of that initial 20 year lawsuit.
Justin (14:24):
There's a fantastic article in the New Yorker from May of this year called How 3M discovered then concealed the Dangers of Forever Chemicals. That touches on a lot of, obviously, I'm sure Megan, you know this article. But that freaked me out reading it, just how one of the things that's really interesting about the article is how it almost, it was just surprising how quickly it moved. It was like, oh, some of the factory workers have it. Oh wait, everybody in this town has it. Oh, everybody who's within 200 miles of this plant have it. Oh, it turns out people, they're thousands of miles away also have it in their system. And this has been in the system, everybody's system for decades and nothing we can do about it now. But it's a shocking article, but it lays it everything out
Colin (15:05):
Really nicely. Meg, as you look at this, and thank you, a great recap of where we are today, what do you feel like a consumer needs to know as we kind of enter it does feel like, Justin and I talked about this a few months ago on the rock fight over on the other podcast, it was like, what are we going to do? I mean, I'm 48 years old and I feel like I'm probably half PFAS at this point given the era in which I grew up in. They're like, okay, well what do you do at this point?
Meg (15:33):
There's a lot of things that you could do. And I think that kind of with other big scale issues that can cause a lot of anxiety. The easiest or the best thing to do is actually just talk about it, make it a normal part of your conversation with your friends, with your family, so people are more aware of the issues. And with PFAS, it can be really scary. And I mean, we should be taking media with a grain of salt and not necessarily buying into all fearmongering, but with PFAS, it's not necessarily always fearmongering because it is a global contamination issue. So even if it did start in Tennessee or West Virginia, it's now everywhere on the planet and it's not necessarily something that we can avoid. And so I think finding ways to minimize our exposure to the best of our ability and not becoming so anxious that we refuse to do things that we typically would have done before having a beer with some of your friends.
(16:32):
Don't let that scare you away from some of the things that you really love and enjoy just because there are maybe some PFAS or microplastics in those products. And with PFAS specifically, I think it's important to recognize that. So essentially what that means is if you're drinking just a tiny amount or exposed to it in the air or on your skin, that your body will, yes, more than likely absorb it, but that small amount is not what's going to harm. You need to be exposed to really high levels of it over a period of time. And so that accumulation is then what is causing a lot of these health issues, which is why people who were drinking it from the time their mom was drinking it when they were in the womb, and then they continued to drink the water that has PFAS in these other chemicals. That's why when they turn 17, 18, 19, they're getting brain cancers and dying. And so you and I, maybe who didn't grow up in a hotspot for PFAS would maybe be less likely to develop one of these disorders. But because we're exposed to so many endocrine disorders, these disruptors these days, it's kind of hard to avoid.
Colin (17:40):
I grew up near a three mile island, literally, so I'm already screwed for a whole bunch of reasons. Okay,
Meg (17:45):
Well shit. Okay. Sorry about that.
Colin (17:48):
Is that
Producer Dave (17:49):
Why you glow when it gets dark?
Colin (17:51):
That's why. That is the reason. Fantastic. God, how great would that be?
Justin (17:55):
Well, we haven't really talked that much about the sort of what's going on with it in the outdoor
Colin (18:02):
Space. Yeah, I was going to pivot into that. Is there anything else wait forward, Dave, do you feel like we missed anything on the sort of, I think we have plenty of backstory
Producer Dave (18:09):
Here. No. But maybe as we move into what makes it right or the outdoor piece of it, can you expand a little bit on, I don't even know if you get into the chemistry so much, but what makes PFAS? So make it work for the types of products we use in the outdoor, and if you stick to the membranes and waterproof, that's good for sure. That's kind of the biggie. I also think you get into the dws, but what about its chemistry makes it ideal for the types of applications we use it for?
Meg (18:37):
Okay, so PFAS is a fluorine and carbon bond. And like I said, there's a lot of different types of PFS, so you can have longer chain or shorter chain, the initial uses of it in the outdoor industry, and for textiles, were a C eight chemistry. So that means that there are eight little attachments to the tail of the PFAS. And what makes it so effective is that the bond itself is the strongest known in organic chemistry. So some interviews that I conducted with scientists, they were saying it takes the energy of lightning to break these chemicals. You can't incinerate it easily. You can't just filter it out and throw it away. There's no real way to destroy these chemistries. And so when you attach them to something like a membrane, then they should theoretically stay there forever because the bond is so strong that makes them really effective in their performance because they're not likely to be eliminated or broken. Do
Justin (19:36):
You know how they're actually applied if you're making, have you seen this, if you're making a jacket, is it put into some sort? Is it suspended in a liquid and sprayed on material? Do you have any idea? There's
Meg (19:46):
A lot of different ways to apply it from my understanding. Yeah, you can do it in a coating sort of spray or solution. A lot of times it's applied in the dying process, so it will adhere to the fibers within the clothing a lot more strongly, but in the membrane. So if you look at a goretex membrane before they change to the EPA liner in most of their products, they kind of press it and it is like this flat. It's like a solid. And so they take a bunch of PFAS that are combined and then they stretch it and flatten it, and then they're able to then adhere it to the inside of say, a rain jacket or something.
Colin (20:25):
So in terms of the day-to-day use of this stuff though, I mean the thing is it doesn't diminish anything of what you described in terms of what the actual chemical is or what it does, but it is relatively inert in terms of how it engages once it's in that fabric form, once it's either sandwiched between something. So if you have an older jacket, anybody who's listening to this that is probably riddled with PFAS at some point. It is not like it is constantly leaching into your body though, and it's not quite the same as to your point, being exposed to those contaminated waterways and things like that as we discover these problems. Yeah,
Meg (20:55):
I would say looking at the research that's come out so far that it's not as dangerous as consuming it. The number one way to accumulate PFAS is probably in drinking water or even in dust, so airborne sort of things. But since 2015, there's been several studies that have come out that have shown that dermal exposure is possible, but it's more common with things like sunscreens or cosmetics, something we're rubbing into our skin or things that are directly against our skin like underwear or a sports bra, exercise pants like a Lululemon pant, that sort of thing that you're more than likely sweating in it, and so you're more easily absorbing any chemicals leaching out. But yeah, something like an old Gore-Tex jacket one Gore-Tex advertised that this is not a dangerous polymer, it's a polymer of low concern, put that in marks no polymers of low concern.
(21:52):
And they essentially said that because it is a solid and it's not sprayed on. And so they're like, well, it can't escape. And I can't say whether or not definitively that has been disproven, but there are plenty of research studies that have been published since those claims have come out to say that yes, you can absorb it in your skins, but I have old PFAS riddled clothing and jackets. I still keep them, and I don't wear any synthetic underwear or running shorts or pants because that is where I am concerned about clothing and textiles being absorbed. But as far as a rain jacket, most of the time that's not directly against my skin. And so I will wear my old rain jacket and I'm not overly concerned. Yeah, the possibility is there, but I don't think it's necessarily a reason to panic, but everyone can make that decision based on their comfortable comfortability or comfortable.
Colin (22:57):
Well, that's kind of why we wanted to have this conversation because there becomes, as you learn about things and there's the reality of the world and the reality of these products and what you have to deal with, at the same time, there's a lot of information to consume, especially if you're a concerned outdoor consumer. So you have, okay, now on one hand I'm being told keep your gear as long as possible because there's no way to put it back and to recycle it into something else. But then on the other hand, well, hey, and by the way, that old thing that you're holding onto as long as possible, good job, but now it's riddled with this chemical that's terrible. And it's just sort of like how do you decide what to do with what you have? And it's just, I think that's kind of some of the fears. Not to say that we want to all align them, but it also doesn't mean that you need to go out and throw something away and buy something new either.
Meg (23:42):
And with PFAS, I think what a lot of outdoor brands now are leaning into is the fact that the California AB 1817, which is a new law that'll go into effect in 2025, they are kind of leaning into marketing that is saying, oh, you need a new jacket that doesn't have PFAS, when in reality their old jackets will likely work just fine if they use a DWR, it probably has come off in the last few years anyway, and you need to reapply some sort of waterproofing, so then you can use a PFS free solution like Nic Wax and move on from there and still use your old jackets and have it be just as effective.
Justin (24:22):
Do we know how this will be implemented or how this will be tested for? Right. We talked about this on the show before, Colin, and I think, I feel like I've asked people in the materials world this before too, and no one seems to have a good answer. I mean, how are we going to, okay, so no PFAS in jackets, who's checking and how, I
Meg (24:44):
Guess third party testing would be the only answer I have, but it really depends on the tests and where it's coming from. And I think a lot of the rules right now are a little ambiguous. They'll be like intentionally added PFAS because it is really hard to avoid P ffo S in the manufacturing process. So it trickles down. We need the suppliers to stop using P ffo S in the facilities, and we need the chemical companies to stop selling P FFO s, and we need the brands to agree that they are going to partner with suppliers and manufacturers that don't use PFAS in the dying process or as a way to make the gears on their mechanisms work better. It needs to be eliminated from the entire
Justin (25:32):
Exactly
Meg (25:33):
Supply chain in order for it to be effective and test zero four. And I think there's no real good answer to that question. And realistically, a lot of brands are going to continue to use P FFO s, even though Gore released the EPE liner in 2022, they still use P FFO S in some of their liners and all of their other product sets for the medical industry and beyond.
Colin (25:57):
So let's talk about what's happening in the marketplace now. To your point, who are the brands that you think deserve credit for doing it right? I mean, obviously you can define that however you like, but I mean, there was a time when all of a sudden, not all of a sudden, but when people realized this was an issue, and it was probably longer ago that people realize and there's a handful of folks who are immediately starting to address it, there's others who promised to address it and took a lot longer. There's some who still are probably working on that. They're rushing to catch up now. The California has said, no, you can't do that anymore. So who do you like to give credit to? Who do you look at as sort of like, this is someone we should give some credit? There
Meg (26:30):
Are two specific brands. They're both in the European Union, and I always give them credit. You're wearing one of their hats, fi Robin is one of them. They started phasing out P FFO s, which were at the time called PFCs in 20 or in 2009. That was a long time ago. And they started working on it. It was a known problem. In 2008, Greenpeace put out a huge call to the outdoor industry to say, Hey, PFCs or P FFO S, these are really bad and you guys use them a lot. Maybe you should try to develop new chemistries. And so Robin, and then also Houdini Sportswear, which is also a European brand, they both listened to that Greenpeace call back in 2008, and they started to develop new chemistries. And then in, I don't know, I want to say like 2012 or 2018, somewhere in that time range, the NRDC made another call to the outdoor industry calling out brands like Patagonia saying You guys are still using these chemistries and you need to stop because it's causing a lot of issues. And if a lot of these bigger brands can then kind of join in this push, which they named a lot of European brands that were already moving in this direction, then we can make a lot of changes in the textile industry, which will be really positive. And so I would say, and I've caught a lot of heat for this already and kind of been blacklisted in some arenas because I said brands like Patagonia and REI are way behind, and they drug their feet pretty exponentially on this issue of
Colin (28:03):
They're not alone. Let's just be clear. It's not just those two brands. It is. I'm not going to, we could say that it's pretty, the two you mentioned are really the only two who probably really were ahead of it.
Meg (28:15):
People want to say that, but I disagree because at the end of the day,
Colin (28:19):
No meaning Raven and Houdini were the only two that were
Justin (28:23):
Out of it. Hey, Keen's been free since 2012 or May of 2012 for a long
Colin (28:27):
Time.
Meg (28:27):
Keen was the one in the United States that I was going to mention because they also started listening to scientists. So I think Arlene Bloom was one of the scientists that approached Keen to say, this is dangerous. Can you work on this new chemistry? And they did listen to the scientists. So a lot of the brands that were ahead oftentimes were approached by scientists specifically. There wasn't necessarily a legislation pushing them forward. They just took the responsibility onto themselves because they're claiming to be environmental stewards. And so if they're claiming these things and they want to align with their ethos and the planetary boundaries and all these things, then yes, they should be listening to what the science tells them.
Colin (29:09):
Yeah. This is where, and I've talked about this around the Rock Fight podcast a bunch. I think Justin, you and I have as well, this is where regulation has to come into play because these are for-profit enterprises. And at the end of the day, that's what they're going to do first and foremost is make money. And that's honestly what they're responsible to do. Now, I think the outdoor industry should lead in this stuff, and they should be proactive in this stuff because we all like to market it around. We go out and it's our playground and all those things, and you want to take advantage of all that, but you don't want to necessarily always do the right thing. But this just says to me, look, what's happening now. Some laws were passed and now everyone's like, oh shit, we got to do something about it. And that's how it needs to work. Frankly. You can't rely on the consumer to push for the change, and you can't rely on the brands to make the right decisions. You got to kind of set the rules for how it should go. And that's kind of what still needs to happen in a lot of these cases, I feel like.
Meg (29:59):
Yeah, and one thing that I do want to say is that when it comes to the manufacturing of these outdoor apparel or products, is that sometimes they are making decisions in-House regarding the liner or the solution they're putting on the outside. But other times they have a supplier like Gore. And unless Gore decides to make the change, then they're going to continue to use Gore until they phase it out. And so I can't put all the heat on the actual clothing companies, even though they could be the ones like pushing Gore to be like, you need to change this, or We're not going to buy from you. That would've moved the needle really fast if Gore lost all these huge customers. And Gore hates me, so I don't care if I'm saying this so
Colin (30:47):
Well, it goes both ways. I mean, producer Dave and I were at Polar Tech for a long time, and we had solutions. I can tell you right now, we had solutions and they tried to hide behind like, well, our consumer really demands a certain level of performance. And it's like, nah, you just don't want to do this. You want to stick with
Producer Dave (31:04):
What you've got. I was going to say there's been pfas free alternatives from a membrane as well as DWR for a long time. Yeah, they're
Colin (31:11):
All culpable.
Producer Dave (31:12):
It's like you said, they hide behind this need for an extreme use case. And actually, if you do block out what is the waterproof measure in terms of keeping water out water resistant versus waterproof, it's literally you have to stand under a waterfall for two hours to get the kind of saturation to make it wonder. It's just not realistic to think that we couldn't have been making a move sooner to move that from the supply chain. But I would say PAS wasn't the issue. It was maybe more of, let's call it mono monopolistic market power is what kept this. Okay. So it's not just the PFAS itself, but it was when you have one player that can literally keep out any form of competition in that space. That's why we are what we hear. So it's almost irrespective of the chemical.
Colin (32:13):
All right, everyone, before we keep going, I need to tell you about our amazing teammates at Darby Communications. If you run an outdoor and endurance or an active lifestyle brand, there is no better PR or digital marketing belay partner or drinking buddy than Darby. They can help your business reach new heights, and they might just keep you from falling on your ass. I mean, since we started working with Darby, more and more people have been reaching out to us here at the rock flight because of that messaging. Look, guys, if they can help us, they can help anybody, hit them up@darbycommunications.com, do it today. So I guess the last thing from my perspective is how do you feel about what should people do with the products they have with pfa? We kind of addressed it, but is it a, listen, don't worry about it? Or is it like, well, maybe there's some things you should look at replacing?
Meg (33:02):
I think the things that people should consider replacing are the things that provide the highest exposure. So first and foremost, look at your water supply. Back in February of 2024, the EPA released their survey of public water systems and 60% of the US water supply had PFAS above the proposed limit. And so get a water filter that can remove PFAS, which is an NRS 53 or 58, so you can look that up on their website. And beyond that, if we're looking at outdoor gear specifically, don't throw out your old tent or your old Gore-Tex jacket because once it enters a landfill, it's going to enter the leche in that landfill, enter the groundwater, and then eventually make its way back to us. And so if you can then continue to use it,
Producer Dave (33:50):
Burn it, do you just
Colin (33:52):
Burn it? Just set it on fire? Yeah, light that
Producer Dave (33:54):
Puppy out with lightning
Colin (33:56):
Meg's giving us, say you guys, it's
Producer Dave (33:58):
Tell people
Meg (33:59):
If don't burn it, well, first of all, because it's not going to reach temperatures high enough to destroy the PFOS, but it will release a lot of,
Colin (34:06):
We'll see about that. Good
Meg (34:08):
Luck. If you discover that, then you need to let everyone know because they've been trying to do this for a long time.
Colin (34:12):
So what's left behind the pfas? Will we still
Producer Dave (34:14):
Be left behind? You haven't seen a NorCal bonfire, have you? So I'm just going to
Colin (34:18):
Say you mean just living in NorCal?
Producer Dave (34:20):
That's right. Good point.
Meg (34:23):
Yeah, so don't burn your clothing, please. The next thing that I think people should consider replacing is actually their underwear. And so if you wear synthetic underwear of any kind, that's a very delicate area on our body. We absorb a lot through that area when we're hiking or biking or just at the gym, we're sweating a lot in those areas. For women. Also, your breasts, you sweat a lot in that arena. So get a bra that doesn't have PFAS because there are ties to a lot of different types of cancers and it's directly on an area of your body that is sweating. And then the next thing of course for women is to try and find reusable menstrual products. Because I mean, other than PFAS, all of the new resource that has come out with Tampa packs and stuff, having lead an arsenic, that's not something you want to be putting in your body like a disposable product. Entering that area of your body is never really a good thing.
Colin (35:24):
And there's PFAS in those products as well? Oh yeah.
Meg (35:27):
In most of
Colin (35:27):
Them. So it's like the Mount Rushmore of terrible things. You got lead, arsenic, p ffa s. What's the fourth thing? There's got to be a fourth thing. There's
Meg (35:33):
Probably more, I don't remember everything that's said in that study, but a lot of those products contain PFAS. But then if we're looking at other outdoor gear, like I said, the rain jackets, you can probably hold onto those. I shy away from a lot of synthetic clothing just because of the person that I am. And you can continue to wear that apparel if you feel comfortable. Like I said, throwing it away is not going to be effective if you're looking at the grand scheme of the world and the impact. But maybe you could repurpose some things if you have, I don't know, a tent, you could make a new tent floor or some tote bags or just there's a lot of options.
Colin (36:15):
Find other ways, right,
Meg (36:16):
Than just throwing it in the trash and use Nick Wax if you want to reapply a waterproof solution.
Colin (36:23):
Never have been P ffa
Meg (36:24):
S and Nick Wax. No, since like 1945, they've never used PFAS. That's cool. That's a great brand to trust because, and they're entering more industrial manufacturing, which I think is really great to provide a solution for brands in that area. But now, I mean, there's a lot of other things that you could do. The number one thing that I would say is be mindful of greenwashing, which is true for anything. So if you're buying something that says it's stain proof, it's water resistant, that should be a red flag and you should look exactly what is making that waterproof or stain resistant or even static resistant. That can be A-P-F-O-S supplied. And if the manufacturer does not state that it is PFOA and PFOS free, those are two most common types of PFAS and they just say it's waterproof and they don't tell you the solution, then don't buy it because they're probably lying to you.
Justin (37:19):
Waxed canvas is safe, right?
Colin (37:21):
Yeah, right.
Meg (37:22):
Yeah, probably. I mean, wax can contain pfos, I'm sure. But
Colin (37:28):
You can set that on fire is what Craig is saying. We can,
Justin (37:30):
Yeah, actually I never thought about that all day long. Paraffin might be entirely P FFA SI don't even know. That's a good point.
Meg (37:35):
No, I like the old school waxes they used to put on Filson, which maybe they still use in filson. I don't really know. Those didn't use to contain PFAS, and so some brands might be going back to some sort of wax treatment, but because of the trend of ultralight, I don't think it will be very popular. Some people might be using it, but something like,
Justin (37:55):
Well, Colin and I are working on reversing that trend. At least I am.
Meg (37:59):
I'm not,
Colin (38:00):
Doesn't kill.
Meg (38:01):
So I don't really prescribe to that.
Colin (38:03):
Bring all the heavy bring. Got a cast iron pan backpack.
Meg (38:06):
Speaking of cast iron pans, Colin.
Colin (38:09):
Oh no, no, no, no. Don't take my cast iron pan away from me. That's
Meg (38:12):
The best fan to be using that doesn't have P
Colin (38:14):
Ffo S Oh God. I thought you were going to go the other way. I was, so I love my cast iron pan.
Meg (38:18):
Yeah, so Teflon is the original P ffo S or one of the original PFS. So if you use a non-stick pan, then I would replace that as well because the heat from that can enter your food. And so I use just cast iron or stainless steel in my home and that's generally a option.
Colin (38:37):
How's everybody's beer? You guys enjoying your near beer? Everybody good? Mine's gone. Oh man, I still got about Thursday
Meg (38:42):
Left here. I talked too much so I didn't really drink
Colin (38:44):
It. That just makes you a good guest. Alright, well we can wrap it up there. If you want to check out migs work, I put links in the show notes as I'm trying to swallow my beer. So both the outdoor minimalist and forever chemicals. Mike, anything you want to tease about what's coming down the pike in your world? Anything new and exciting?
Meg (38:58):
Well, with the success of the Forever Chemicals podcast, which we were the number one chemistry podcast and the Top 20 Science podcast for several weeks. So we are looking for funding for a season two where we're going to focus on forever chemicals in consumer goods like cosmetics, lotion, sunscreens, and all that jazz. So you can look forward to that hopefully in the next year.
Colin (39:21):
Should they go to Outdoor Minimalist website? Where should they go if they want to reach
Meg (39:24):
Out to you? Yeah, the outdoor minimalist.com contains both
Colin (39:28):
Well, gear and Beer is a production of Rock Fight LLC, our producer today. You heard him? It's David Carstead, arc direction Bys gen insert. I'm Colin, true for Justin Hausman. And big thanks to our guest today, Meg Carney. Thank you for listening and here to take us out. It's the Voice of the Rock Fight podcast network. It's Krista Makes. He's going to perform for you now live right here in studio, the gear and beer theme song. We'll see you next time.
Chris DeMakes (39:56):
We have experienced lots of tails to tell, just like pals out on the We Review outdoor adventure gear pair with the perfect beer. Now let the games begin. So glad that you're here at the break,
(40:17):
The
(40:17):
Podium, the trailhead. We're going to crack open the cooler by the beverage where we can celebrate our wins. Those losses we hold so close.
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