Today on THE ROCK FIGHT (an outdoor podcast that aims for the head) Colin opens the show with his reaction to Gear Patrol's mention of THE ROCK FIGHT in their recent best products of 2024 list.
Colin and Producer Dave use this mention to pump the tires of an outdoor media scene who has way more clout than many realize when it comes to how they cover the brands that drive the conversation in the outdoor industry.
Then Eoin Comerford joins the show to showcase his recent deep dive into the evolving landscape of outdoor direct-to-consumer (D2C) brands based on his recent LinkedIn post.
Lastly it's time for The Parting Shot where Eoin highlights the importance of inclusivity and diversity within the industry, emphasizing that these values should be seen as business imperatives rather than mere societal goals while Colin wants to reject your very thoughtful hand written thank you note.
Follow Eoin Comerford on LinkedIn.
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Episode Transcript
Colin True
00:00:00.240 - 00:01:53.914
For years, outdoor brands have shouted to the skies, each claiming their gear is better, tougher and smarter than the next. They bragged about seams and fabrics, about features you didn't need.
And when the world started caring about the planet, those same brands tried to have it both ways, making the same old stuff but slapping on a green label to soothe the conscience. But Livesyn isn't like the rest. Livesyn was born to help you strip it all down, to live with intention. Own less, live more.
It's a simple creed, but simplicity is what matters most. We've been timeless since before we even had a name. Lifson grew out of a deep hunger for freedom, a love for this earth and the people who walk it.
We don't obsess over the gear. We focus on the life the gear lets you live. Retailers think on this.
How many brands do you carry that are cut from the same old cloth, filling racks with sameness? Couldn't your floor use something different?
A brand that doesn't just sell clothes, but sells a way of being lifts and gear is built to last, to be repaired, to stick with your customers for a lifetime of trails, peaks and adventures in the Ozarks. We have an honest, gritty sensibility with a sharp edge of style. It's what happens when the love of the land meets a modern streak.
And if you're wondering, Libsyn's founder, Andrew Gibbs Dabney, can explain it better than anyone. Look, here's the straight talk. We believe in Liveson enough to put our name on it. Send in your fall 25 preseason orders by January 15th.
Mention this podcast and you'll get the Rock Fight preseason special, a clean 2% off stacked on top of Lipson's own preseason program. Discounts don't wait. Stock the brand that's burning hot in the outdoor world, the brand that's here for the long haul.
Be a Rock fighter, not just another retailer. Liveson. Own less, live more. Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree.
This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True. It's Monday, it's a holiday week, and I am here with a micless producer Dave. Later we'll have a micless.
Oh, and come and everyone forgot their mic this week, folks. You can tell it's the holiday season.
Producer Dave
00:01:54.002 - 00:02:01.066
I have a mic. It's not a fancy one that you have.
Colin True
00:02:01.138 - 00:02:48.036
We do have a great show lined up for you today. But before we get to that great show, have you subscribed to Rock Flight's weekly newsletter. If not, you're really missing out.
Last week's newsletter was a banger. We got another one ready to go out tomorrow, which is Christmas Eve, so. And Hanukkah Eve. Apparently Hanukkah starts on Wednesday this year.
So you want to get the newsletter, you want to have it, you want to read it, you got to be doing anything. You're off get the newsletter and you can get the newsletter by heading to Rockfight Co and clicking Join the Mailing List.
And lastly, I'm going to ask you again, folks. Follow the Rock Fight Take that podcast app that you're listening to us on and click Follow. If you feel so moved, leave a five star rating.
That's super helpful as well. But that's the best way to help out the pod and make sure that and make sure that you don't miss an episode. So please do that for us. And guess what?
It's time to start the show.
Chris DeMakes
00:02:48.118 - 00:02:52.100
Welcome to the Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Colin True
00:02:53.280 - 00:08:00.896
So we have a pretty full episode today with our guy Owen Comerford. So we're going to keep this open a little bit.
On the brief side, I just really want to build on last week's episode where I talked about the outdoor industry operating out of fear because it was a great example that came up this past week and it involved your favorite podcast that the one you're listening to right now, the Rock Fight. So over the past week, Gear Patrol has been in 20 piece increments releasing their annual 100 most important product releases of 2024.
And many alert listeners let us know about number 55 on this list, which is the Mystery Ranch Radix 57 range of packs, which the editors at Gear Patrol call the super technical packs that offer tremendous value and sacrifice practically nothing in return. That's why it made this list. But before they offered those thoughts on the product, the write up opens as follows.
Now I'm quoting from the write up and they wrote this year has been one of the has been one of peaks and valleys for outdoor pack brand Mystery Ranch.
The low point might have been when the Rock Fight podcast ignited a rumor that YETI planned a sunset mystery ranch only months after buying the brand. In stark contrast, the release of the Mystery Ranch Radix pack lineup is a clear bright spot.
And the article closes by saying they have all the other features big time hikers have come to expect, including removable frames, adjustable harnesses, reservoir capability, and more. It's an amazing starting point that shows where Mystery Ranch will Take this line of bags as long as the brand has the opportunity.
How about that guys?
For new listeners around here, the Rock Fight broke the news that to the larger outdoor world a couple of months ago that yeti, less than a year after acquiring them, is planning the Sunset Mystery Ranch, at least for the specialty retail market after 2025. And you know, first, let me just say thanks to whoever it is at Gear Patrol that listens to the rock fight.
The 100 most important product releases of the year doesn't list doesn't include bylines for who is writing the blurbs each one, unfortunately.
But I'm going to assume that the person name dropping this podcast is a listener, not just another GEAR enthusiast who happened to see us get mentioned in an article about our breaking news by gear junkie1 because it's more fun for us that way, but also because they had no reason whatsoever to bring up the Rock Fight episode and yet they did. But like I said, this is a follow up example of last week's topic about fear.
In that episode I mentioned that a significant chunk of outdoor media has become a prop for outdoor brands. There is a fear of being critical of the brands who provide ad revenue to these titles.
And for me, there's a couple of things that are wrong with that mentality.
For one, even if someone at an outdoor media outlet has taken your brand to the woodshed over a product or a move that you've made, that doesn't mean that your brand shouldn't advertise with them. In fact, you can argue that this media title should go to the top of the list where you want to advertise, because people are going to notice that.
And also, brands don't be so sensitive. If the title in question has the attention of your audience, then who gives a shit what they print or say about you?
They're a vehicle to get your message to the audience you want receiving your message.
And the second thing that is wrong here is what we see in the wording by both Gear Junkie and Gear Patrol in their commentary on this whole Mystery Ranch YETI situation. Both entities continue to say that YETI is sunsetting that YETI sunsetting Mystery Ranch is a rumor, which in my opinion really it is not.
I mean, we had multiple firsthand sources reporting that YETI that a YETI sales representative while in a meeting held meetings in a trade show booth informing retailers of their plan.
Now I get it if that is no interest of YETI to confirm to the broader audience of their plans and provide an opportunity for consumers to get angry a year ahead of time. But call any retailer who took a meeting with them at the G O8 Connect show and they'll tell you what they were told by Yeti.
And in Defensive Gear Junkie, they were pretty upfront that they had been hearing about this news coming down the pike ahead of when we first said it on the podcast. And for Gear Patrol, they had like a hundred words of room that talk about a specific product and still chose to talk about this.
So I also don't want to discount the power of the fear I'm talking about. The lifeblood of a lot of these media companies is in the ad dollars.
So straddling the line to tell a full story while not risking a cent of that income, that's a hard thing to do. I just feel like there's a way to have both things. Outdoor media is in a much bigger position of power than most of us realize.
Consumers are demanding more from the way their favorite things are covered and we have an opportunity to give that to them. This past year, we've seen momentum building in print. There are more podcasts talking about this stuff than ever.
The daily discourse on LinkedIn is robust and frankly, productive, unlike a lot of other social media platforms. And even though I'm using them as examples, Gear Junkie consistently dips their toes into these waters.
And when it comes to the YETI story, I know there was another media outlet who had all of the same information and opted not to say anything out of their own fear of the repercussions. And also kudos to Gear Patrol because like I said earlier, this was a short blurb about a cool pack.
So even though they called the story a rumor, the inclusion of what we had to say felt like a rock throw of its own because YETI wouldn't confirm their plans.
This type of coverage from places like Gear Junkie, Gear Patrol, and your old pals here at the Rock Fight is how we kick that fear to the curb and build a brand new outdoor media scene. So I don't know, Dave, you had any thoughts on this?
Producer Dave
00:08:01.048 - 00:08:05.740
I don't know what I could add to that, Colin. I thought you expressed that pretty well.
Colin True
00:08:06.100 - 00:08:07.404
Thank you. Thank you.
Producer Dave
00:08:07.572 - 00:09:37.730
I do think the fear factor certainly runs deep and wide. It's not just the media itself, but brands. Everyone is just afraid of backlash that could come through mean tweets.
They're afraid on impact on financial markets. So I mean, those are real and also overwrought at the same time for sure. I mean, it is, you know, interesting.
If you ask a PR professional what the, you know, the right response to any crisis. And not that this is a crisis, but any crisis would be radical candor. Right? You get in front of something and you own it.
And people are far more forgiving and understanding even decisions they don't agree with. And I think that's the case here. Well, look, people may not like the decision, but you know, a business is going to be at that size.
I'm going to give them the benefit of a doubt, of having some thoughtful analysis and know what they're trying to do with it and make that decision even if we don't like it.
But it does seem like businesses at the end of the day in terms of just owning up decisions that people may not agree with or like they would rather be kind of come off as smarmy and evasive, which is just a weird trade off to me. I don't think it has to be a trade off, but that's what they end up doing.
And not talking around this when asked point blank about their intentions just comes off as untruthful. Right. It's like there's no reason we already know the answer to this question.
Don't pretend that we're not asking, you know, the question doesn't exist.
Eoin Comerford
00:09:38.790 - 00:09:39.102
So.
Producer Dave
00:09:39.126 - 00:10:19.712
No, I think that's right. And media, you know, look, this is a tough time to be building anything in kind of ad supported media for sure.
And so that those are understandable reflexes to have.
And it would take somebody as, you know, patently irresponsible as the Rock fight to come down on the side of, of radical candor ourselves at the expense of, you know, what kind of sponsorship you get from that. But look, I think to your point, consumers are demanding more of their brands. They're going to demand more of media too.
You know, and let's, let's face it, brands and content in demand isn't going away. Right. It's the ones that aren't being demanded.
Colin True
00:10:19.856 - 00:10:20.160
Right.
Producer Dave
00:10:20.200 - 00:10:35.888
They're not providing something to listeners or readers and so therefore they're going to get penalized by it. Right.
And so I think that's where having a voice and having something distinct and unique to say and honestly trying to be as truthful and transparent and forthright as you can is the way to do it.
Colin True
00:10:35.944 - 00:10:49.830
Yeah, and that's also why I wanted to make sure we defended Gear Patrol and Gear Junkie a little bit here too, because like we talked about last week, this is a kind of decidedly unique outdoor thing where all sort of the money and power are kind of held by one side of. Of the equation. Right.
Producer Dave
00:10:49.870 - 00:10:54.822
It's not, like, unique to outdoor. Well, I mean, I guess every media is dealing with that, though.
Colin True
00:10:54.846 - 00:11:33.564
That's true. But it just, you know, when it's like, if you're talking about sports and pop culture, which is what I kind of go.
My default go to on this, it's like, well, it's easy.
You can criticize athletes or movie stars, you know, and the movie studios have all the money or the teams have the money or the leagues or things like there's a little bit of. There's a separation. It's a little more nuanced versus here. It's like, hey, all the money and the. And our celebrities are basically the brands.
So anytime you have to, like, kind of, we want to cross that line, you are kind of biting the hand that feeds you in a lot of ways. And so I. I just. I appreciate that position.
It's a hard place to be to, like, hey, we want to say some stuff, but it's also got to be a little careful about how we do it. I. I appreciate the position, even if I wish people maybe were a little more bold at times.
Producer Dave
00:11:33.652 - 00:12:01.118
Right. I, you know, look, I. I think it's exactly the same as the others.
Look, if you get onto the college football universe, you know, ESPN is not criticizing its coverage. It's not criticizing the conferences for destroying a game for money. Right. Because they're part of it.
But they'll attack coaching decisions, and they'll blame players for, you know, moving schools to chase money as being the problem. Right. But they don't go after the actual players that. Or the forces that implemented the structure in the first place.
Colin True
00:12:01.174 - 00:12:13.556
So. No, no, that's a good point.
It's almost like any of these categories, we have these sort of like, hey, here, for whatever reason, the third rails became what the third rails are, and we just don't ever go there. And I guess in the outdoors, we need to go there a little bit more is kind of what ultimately, what I'm saying.
Producer Dave
00:12:13.628 - 00:12:52.878
Well, because the brands have become our celebrities. Right? We've talked about this before. And so therefore, now, how do you. How do you constructively criticize? How do you legitimately criticize?
How do you build up without being a homer? There's all those kind of forces, and they're brands, not individuals, right? Not celebrities or stars. And it's just. It's a different. Different take.
And, like, I think the tone of the outdoors, also different. We try to not just, you know, Even, even the rock fight is not trying to just kind of break down. It's like it's trying.
How do we get to these answers? How do we find solutions to this stuff where I don't think a lot of sports or entertainment media is built around solution building at all?
Colin True
00:12:52.934 - 00:13:32.698
Well, and also, it's a good point.
Even some of the other more established media companies, if they're not looking at repercussions from the brand, it's almost repercussion from the fans as well.
Because like we saw like with facing skims and when Patagonia says we're not a fashion brand and you get the, the sort of, the dogmatic approach to some of the fans who are like, don't you dare criticize these outdoor brands for what their decisions are like in a really weird, bizarre way.
Like, so beholden to like wearing their North Face or Patagonia T shirts that there will be like, they won't, they can't, can't even see the other side of what maybe potentially this billion dollar company is trying to do. It's. That is also a problem that they have to contend with because who's going to read their, you know, their magazine or their website?
Producer Dave
00:13:32.834 - 00:13:34.382
There you go. There you go.
Colin True
00:13:34.466 - 00:14:14.842
Well, and the last thing I'll say, and I mentioned in kind of my open, I mean, it's like you can have it both ways. I mean, I reference a lot. I've told you this, I've told other people this.
I'm not sure if I said it on the pod, but like, one of my favorite podcasts is this podcast called the Town. It's a, it's a, It's a business of Hollywood podcast. And the people on that show will tear a movie studio up, down and sideways.
But then who do you hear advertising on that show about the new thing coming out? Hey, Moana. Choose coming out. Yeah.
You just heard, you know, the guy ripping on Disney two weeks ago, but it's also like, yeah, because he also knows the people who are interested in him ripping on Disney. Well, we want to make sure they know about Moana too, so you can have it both ways.
All right, well, guess what time it is right now, Dave, what time is it?
Producer Dave
00:14:14.866 - 00:14:15.242
Colin?
Colin True
00:14:15.306 - 00:15:36.890
Oh, my God. It's time for our weekly segment to make sure you're getting more out of the outdoors. It's time for more with Thurmore.
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00:16:39.630 - 00:17:42.722
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Well, let's get into this week's chat with outdoor industry insider and consigliere to the Rock Fight, Owen Comerford. All right, well, we're back. We're here with Owen Comerford, the Rock Fight's own consigliere.
He's here to advise us and tell us what we need to do, especially when it comes to the outdoor industry. Take a look inside the outdoor industry. And guys, producer Dave's here as well. And we're two days out from Christmas and Hanukkah.
I think it was a rare miss by the you some advertisers somewhere to not recognize the Christmas that Hanukkah starts on Christmas this year. I feel like that was a some big opportunity that was missed by somebody.
Eoin Comerford
00:17:42.786 - 00:17:48.706
I'm kind of, I'm the bah humbug in our household. It's like, really, Christmas music again, you know?
Colin True
00:17:48.858 - 00:17:59.346
Thank you, God. I knew there's a reason why having you on the show. I am.
So I think there's something to the Christmas music on Christmas Eve, Christmas Day, and that's it. And think how special it would be.
Eoin Comerford
00:17:59.418 - 00:18:05.690
Exactly right. Yeah. My chestnut is fully roasted right now. I am done.
Colin True
00:18:09.750 - 00:18:57.224
That's amazing. All right. Well, so, Owen, after a slow start to this past week, you and I were lamenting.
We kind of both thought that maybe the holiday break had started early.
But you put up a post on LinkedIn on Tuesday or Wednesday of this past week about direct to consumer ski brand Montech, who apparently has quietly become a $154 million brand in the winter sports category. And that led you to pose an interesting question about the state of D2C direct to consumer outdoor brands.
You mentioned that according to Circana, outdoor retail sales hit $28 billion in 2023, but that that number excluded D2C. So, you know what's on your mind when it comes to D2C? What was sort of the response you got on LinkedIn?
It was a pretty well back to my original point, kind of proof that no, people are not on vacation. They really wanted to chime in on this topic.
Eoin Comerford
00:18:57.272 - 00:19:24.260
Specifically, almost a hundred comments from people just piping in on here because basically what I asked was, you know, who are some of the brands that maybe people haven't heard of because they're outside the industry?
You know, And I think, I think it's the reason why I think this is important is because, you know, this won't be a shock to anybody, but, you know, our industry here can be a little bit closed off. Right.
Colin True
00:19:24.380 - 00:19:24.948
What.
Eoin Comerford
00:19:25.084 - 00:19:37.248
And yeah. What. What we tend. There's 10 be a lot. A lot of kind of, you know, navel gazing, et cetera. And we're guilty on this podcast of it, by the way.
Colin True
00:19:37.304 - 00:19:40.500
Oh, 100. But have you seen our navels?
Eoin Comerford
00:19:41.240 - 00:19:46.000
Yes. Yeah. Right. And yeah. Shall we talk about trade shows again?
Colin True
00:19:46.120 - 00:19:48.368
Let's do it. That'll be next week.
Eoin Comerford
00:19:48.424 - 00:19:55.770
But the point being, though, is that, you know, we tend to focus obviously on brands that are sold at wholesale.
Colin True
00:19:55.880 - 00:19:56.166
Yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:19:56.198 - 00:20:41.684
In. You know, and those are the brands that sort of. Everyone's heard of, etc. Or mainly.
But the reality is there's a ton of brands out there that aren't really sold at much at wholesale that actually have quite a following. And I think it's.
It's important, though, for our industry to not exclude these brands when we're thinking about the industry because there's a lot potentially to learn from them. Like the Montech Montec and Dope Snow are actually owned by a Swedish company called Rides. Ridestore. And they. It's just as a.
And I really hadn't heard much about them, to be. To be quite honest. And everyone. But there were. There were a number of people that said, you know, where the f. Have you been, Comerford?
You know, these guys are all over the slopes.
Colin True
00:20:41.812 - 00:20:44.324
They're just here to hear you say the words dope Snow together.
Eoin Comerford
00:20:44.412 - 00:20:51.806
You know, there you go. But the reality is I haven't been on the slopes. I'm not a skier. I'm a camper. I'm a hiker. I'm.
Producer Dave
00:20:51.838 - 00:20:51.982
That.
Eoin Comerford
00:20:52.006 - 00:21:48.968
I'm more on that side of things. I grew up in Ireland. We don't have snow, so I have an excuse. But. But yeah. So regardless of whether you've heard of them or not, I think there's a.
You can learn a lot here because of the way that they're approaching the market and they are having a big impact. They are showing up on the slopes and looking at their e commerce experience is amazing.
I don't know if you've had a chance to check it out, but the way they do outfitting, where they think about the whole outfit, they think about all the product together as a full assortment. And then you go in and let's say you pick your jacket in Dope Snow, for example, and it's like a light pink.
Then you go and you pick your pants and they reorder the list of styles of pants in the Color story that matches the jacket that you picked. Same with the, the headwear, the, you know, the neck gaiter, the gloves, yada, yada, yada. I mean, really, really strong.
Colin True
00:21:49.104 - 00:22:48.014
The way they're going about it, it's either really strong. I mean, I get it. I'm looking at it right now actually. And like I looked at it obviously after I. Same as you.
I've been out of the ski game for a long time, so I was not familiar with Montech or Dope Snow. You know, I definitely raised my eyebrow when I saw $154 million, you know, a brand you're intimately familiar with.
Liveson, who Andrew, was just on the pod recently. Talk about how being that kind of $100 million mark is kind of a really interesting spot to be as a brand.
If you get there, there's a lot of things you can do with that. So it's like, wow, that's, that's significant. But it's also, I don't know, maybe call me. This is an old school mindset. It's very sanitized.
Like I, I am not inspired when I go to their website. To me, it just feels like I'm shopping at a big box store, you know, when I look at their stuff.
And frankly, frankly, between the two brands, yeah, there's definitely some differences, obviously Dope Snow because they're called Dope Snow and because they add a little bit more fabric to a baggy fit. There's a difference. But I'm not like, there's the. Both webs, the shopping experience is the same basically on both sides.
Eoin Comerford
00:22:48.062 - 00:22:49.166
It's the same technology.
Colin True
00:22:49.318 - 00:22:55.006
But also that could just be, that could totally. I see why that would work though, as well. Right, right.
Eoin Comerford
00:22:55.078 - 00:23:00.174
Well, so the, the interesting thing. So I talked to an industry insider about, about this. Right?
Colin True
00:23:00.262 - 00:23:00.574
Yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:23:00.622 - 00:23:12.854
And her comment to me was, you know, it was, it was kind of dismissive, quite frankly. She's like, oh, yeah, they're showing up. But it was. It's mainly the fly in skiers that are wearing this product.
Colin True
00:23:12.942 - 00:23:13.770
Interesting.
Eoin Comerford
00:23:14.190 - 00:23:40.872
Okay, so folks, you know, from the east coast, right, that are on social media that are getting all the influencer marketing that these people are pumping out and, you know, it's a decent price point. It's not, it's not inexpensive, but it's not. Definitely not.
You know, it's not, it's you know, $250 jackets instead of whatever, 500 jackets, but they're buying that product for their, you know, one or two or three trips to the, you know, to the Rockies or.
Colin True
00:23:40.896 - 00:23:41.320
Yeah, right.
Eoin Comerford
00:23:41.360 - 00:24:04.664
A year. Let's say they're, they're not the core enthusiast user. Right. Which, you know, and I was like, I'm not sure how I felt about that.
Like they hadn't put in the time. Right. They hadn't paid their dues. They weren't, you know, hiring the, you know, the folks that were athletes and doing all that kind of stuff.
It was a very sort, I mean, maybe to your point, kind of a capitalistic approach.
Colin True
00:24:04.832 - 00:24:32.020
But it makes sense though too, right? It's almost like a, like a rental shop in a way. Right. I mean, I kind of, I kind of get it. Like I'm looking for a particular experience.
But if it's truly like, listen, we're making it simple for you, it's clean, you're going to go to this place and even if you frankly are have a mountain in your town, you're going to ski on, it's simple as a direct to consumer experience. Why would we try to compete with the in shop experience?
Let's just make it simple and easy, you know, and here's all our products and pick it out and we'll ship it to you and you're good to go.
Producer Dave
00:24:32.860 - 00:25:09.264
I also think it goes to the look, there's, like you said, it is a shopping experience. The website is a retail outlet. It is not a brand experience platform. Right.
And that distinguishing that is definitely something of the D2C that the legacy brands and I kind of share this same kind of view that the website began as a brand platform, not a retail platform. And some of that still hangs over in terms of how we approach those. And they're just not of that.
You know, they have 1.5 million followers on Instagram, so they're clearly speaking to somebody with their brand.
Colin True
00:25:09.352 - 00:25:10.080
Right, right.
Producer Dave
00:25:10.120 - 00:25:28.896
And their brand is, you know, kind of like old school action sport. Right. It is just one, you know, rail ride after another. And that's just, that's, that's the brand piece of it and it's a, it's a young audience.
So I just, I think that's just something unapologetically into that idea that here you're here to shop.
Colin True
00:25:29.008 - 00:26:07.014
No, and I think that's, that's the, the core origination. The original post you put up. Owen. Right. It's like this is about direct to consumer, frankly.
Davin, to your point, this is probably how you should do online direct to consumer. You know, this is, you know, quick, easy engagement. Here's the product. What do you want by what? Yeah, why do you need to have the brand experience.
And I think that's what everybody tried to have it both ways is they were pivoting to D2C in the, in the, in the 2010s. So but if you look at the, I mean how do we have any idea what the size of this market is? Like what's.
If it's 28 billion, that is wholesale, like what is the rest of it that's not even accounted for in that circana number? Do we even know? Do we have a sense of it?
Eoin Comerford
00:26:07.182 - 00:26:14.970
Well, we don't. So the other DTC piece that's excluded from the circana number is the brand's own D2C right? Oh, okay.
Colin True
00:26:15.950 - 00:26:20.170
So that's only wholesale. That's retail, that's outdoor retail in like brick and mortar.
Eoin Comerford
00:26:20.910 - 00:26:59.338
It's really. And the E Commerce piece too. So the back countries of the world, Reis, E Commerce, et cetera is in that number.
But it's all basically product sold through wholesale. It includes the private brand sales of those retailers, but it doesn't include the D2C sales of the brands which for some brands is only 10, 15%.
But it's growing and in some of the bigger brands cases it's actually now closer to 30, 40, 50%. So if I had to guess that piece plus the DTC brands that don't show up at all, it wouldn't shock me if it was another 20 billion.
Colin True
00:26:59.394 - 00:27:06.986
Or so right now. Is that like how does it, how do you frame that within the kind of, the larger like, you know what health of the industry?
Eoin Comerford
00:27:07.058 - 00:27:24.820
I guess it depends. I don't think it's necessarily good. More competition is typically not better. But I do think it talks to.
What it says though is that the growth that's being shown in circana numbers actually undercounts the amount of growth in the overall market.
Colin True
00:27:24.940 - 00:27:37.920
Okay, so with that in mind, because then another part of your post where like you mentioned earlier, the. What, what are the other un, you know, quote unquote unknown D2C brands that maybe we don't talk about as much as some of the other ones.
You know what, what were some of the, the comments you got?
Eoin Comerford
00:27:38.380 - 00:28:32.960
So there was like people were throwing multiple brands per comment. So there, there was easily 100 brands that were in there. So here we go. So these are some of the categories. One certainly is ultralight.
And you know, that's a funny community in that if you're in that space, if you're a thru hiker, you're into the ultralight. You know, these Brands are like household names. If you're not in that space, you may have never heard of them. Now I had, you know, being in.
In at least the industry, I had heard of the Z packs of the world, the hyper lights, gossamer gear and lighted equipment, et cetera. But there were a few that came up that I hadn't heard of. Durston. Durston Gear came up a couple of times actually.
Outdoor Vitals was another one and there's probably a million that I'm not. You know, in the sort of the cars industry side side of that market that I'm not even.
Producer Dave
00:28:33.340 - 00:28:57.120
This is where I would actually put Senshi designs that you know, designed in Colorado and built, constructed in Portland. And they are just targeted right at that thru hiker with a.
It was an Alpha or a polar tech product, but it's really a lightweight foldable pack, do it all kind of top design that they have, they've run with and started to gain traction into.
Colin True
00:28:57.240 - 00:28:59.776
No free ads here, Dave. No free ads. Okay.
Producer Dave
00:28:59.968 - 00:29:02.544
They make a great product. They make a great product.
Eoin Comerford
00:29:02.632 - 00:29:27.230
So I included them under my cool clothing, the tech fleece crowd. But I understand why you have them there because the other players there would be Melanzana, which I think most people have heard of, maybe Melee.
It's kind of. It's a thing. And then Ewer, which I know I've talked about in the pod before, but that's more. That's the female cool tech fleece crowd.
Producer Dave
00:29:27.650 - 00:29:36.670
I think Bell and Zone will be happy to be referred to as cool for sure. There says that's the inside. They know they're the inside inside.
Eoin Comerford
00:29:37.090 - 00:29:42.970
You have to show up. You have to show up to our store to get. Yeah, we don't do. I mean, come on.
Producer Dave
00:29:43.010 - 00:29:43.402
You gotta like.
Colin True
00:29:43.426 - 00:29:48.922
It's like. It's like getting into the Barclay. You gotta like write a haiku and submit an application in order to like get access.
Producer Dave
00:29:49.026 - 00:29:57.190
When. When brands decide to start their own cut and sew in Leadville, Colorado and do that for two decades, they can earn their cool.
Eoin Comerford
00:29:57.270 - 00:29:59.090
But let's be clear, you know what I mean?
Producer Dave
00:29:59.550 - 00:30:02.130
Right? But they have. They really have.
Eoin Comerford
00:30:03.550 - 00:30:25.798
So. But those, those three actually all then would fall into another category. Maybe, maybe I need to have like, like a Venn diagram here. But.
And that's the handmade in the US Gang. And there were so many of these that I had never heard of. One that of course listeners to this podcast will have heard of is Northwest Alpine.
Colin True
00:30:25.894 - 00:30:27.638
Shout out to Bill Amos. There we go.
Eoin Comerford
00:30:27.694 - 00:30:53.554
Okay. But then there was Etooja which is from Vermont. Never heard of them.
Wintergreen designs from New Mexico, Tom bin bags from Seattle, Frost river, some wax canvas clothing, Alpine Luddites, Virgin Outdoor free range equipment. I mean the list goes on and on. Are those new to you guys or you've heard of them?
Colin True
00:30:53.642 - 00:31:16.398
I've heard of some of them and it's funny, the Tom bin bags, I didn't even think of that when we were having this conversation. I know you're probably going to poke fun at me in a minute about the one I wrote.
But it also there's a ton of like the bike bag folks who make in the U.S. oh my God. The Outer Shell and Aveja Negra.
I mean there's a lot of these bike bag companies that are manufacturing in the, that are, you know, kind of probably again in that.
Producer Dave
00:31:16.454 - 00:31:18.670
Yeah, Black Star Bailey Works, things like that.
Colin True
00:31:18.710 - 00:31:19.262
Yeah, yeah.
Producer Dave
00:31:19.326 - 00:31:32.494
Virgin has been. I've known them for a while. They're kind of the, the, the New England Melanzana if you will.
I believe they have their own production facility as well. It's not just contracting. So they're kind of all in on the vertical as well.
Eoin Comerford
00:31:32.582 - 00:32:38.212
Then we get into the female founders. So the female founders are having a little bit of a moment in terms of I think actually starting brands.
The challenge is just historically getting support from both from the investment community and also from the retail community is that I actually know a lot of these female founders and most of them would like to be selling into wholesale. Some of them are like Wild Rye is doing very well and is in rei.
But you are again another female founder, Scenic who obviously Friends of the pond half days I think as having getting a bit of a name. I think Loom6 is a, is a women's super high end sports brand. I'm a full disclosure. I'm an advisor to Loom6nara. So elevate wagon.
I'm an investor in Elevate a really cool outdoor wagon Po Campo, another female brand in the bike bag category. I could list a million but there's a lot of really cool stuff.
Colin True
00:32:38.276 - 00:33:08.390
I mean what do we make of a list this long though, right? Not to.
I know you probably have a few more but it's just like you know we go back to, you know when we talked about MIE and we were just running through like all the European brands that are trying to break in the US and the space for it and and so my initial reaction when I see this list is God, that's a lot of brands. But then at the same Time you're like, yeah, but we opened with, you know, Montex 154 million.
You know, you're talking about some of these other ones that have seen real success. Like is it just, is the ceiling much higher than maybe people think for outdoor apparel brands?
Eoin Comerford
00:33:09.210 - 00:33:36.562
I don't know. I mean, I think a lot of these brands are actually pretty small, like certainly sub 10 million. Some of them I think are actually sub 2 million.
So, you know, I think they're, it's a mixed bag. There's a few hundred million dollar brands in here, mainly the ones that have, that have built a foothold in Europe.
I don't think that, I don't, I wouldn't say there's a ton of a hundred million dollar US brands on this list.
Colin True
00:33:36.666 - 00:34:27.838
So it's just a different game then, right, Versus what we talk about on the wholesale side. I mean, back to kind of some of the original points about going to Montech and Dope Snow's site.
Like they have figured out a way, I'm sure that it's very shoppable, it's easy to go there and get what you need.
To your point, if you're living in Florida and you want to fly to Breckenridge for the weekend or whatever, you're like, oh, here's a spot you can go to achieve that. And is that.
So that's the game there versus how do you integrate into a shop and how do you kind of sell in and compete against these other brands and steal market share from some other, these other folks so that you can show up as well? It's truly that.
It's a little bit like we said with the Under Armour conversation last week and you're not going into a store and picking up the garment and saying, I'm walking to the register with it. But you're going to go to a website and you want. The challenge here is to have that click in your head and go, I'm going to buy that.
And then you click buy while you're there. I mean, it's almost like that is the game here, I would imagine.
Eoin Comerford
00:34:27.934 - 00:34:35.470
I think it also though talks to the difficulty of breaking into the wholesale business and retail.
Colin True
00:34:35.550 - 00:34:35.790
Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:34:35.830 - 00:35:14.348
Because I don't know this, but a number of these brands and they're not all necessarily 100% D2C but if I had to guess, I would think quite a few of them would love to actually have more of a wholesale business. But the US market is so tough, you know, because you're like, you know, the, you try to get into rei, and that's like, whatever. It's, it's.
It's a tricky. We'll put it that way.
But then, you know, then trying to sell into, you know, specialty retail, onesie twos, you know, a thousand doors, and you're trying to sell in a door at a time, that's tough too. So.
Colin True
00:35:14.404 - 00:35:14.812
Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:35:14.916 - 00:35:17.836
It's not. It's not an easy entree.
Producer Dave
00:35:17.948 - 00:35:59.924
This is, you know, we talk about the stagnation of the outdoor. We talk about the sameness of the outdoor. This, to me, is the exciting, I don't know, primordial soup of innovation and trend.
Like, this is the future. We're looking at the future. Somewhere in here is the next north face.
I don't know which one by any stretch, but I think maybe just going on to that, I'm gonna wanted to bring up that this is almost the dark matter of the outdoor universe. Right. That this is all the things we don't see, but makes up the majority, actually, what this core enthusiast is interacting with.
Eoin Comerford
00:36:00.092 - 00:36:00.468
Right.
Producer Dave
00:36:00.524 - 00:36:02.196
And that's just an interesting take.
Eoin Comerford
00:36:02.348 - 00:36:17.076
Well, I think this is interesting product. Right.
Because each of these companies have carved out a niche, maybe a small niche for themselves, because they're doing something interesting and different that consumers can't get in their local gear store or in their local rei.
Colin True
00:36:17.188 - 00:36:17.620
Yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:36:17.700 - 00:36:43.550
And it talks to, you know, a, the need for innovation within our industry that's not being meshed, and B, the need for differentiation in our industry that's not being met. And, you know, you guys have talked about it quite a bit.
We've talked about it quite a bit on this podcast, that there's just a sea of sameness and it's out there. If you can look for it. I just would challenge retailers out there to look for it too.
Colin True
00:36:46.650 - 00:36:53.570
Before we go, Owen, you said you wanted to end our segment this week with your own parting shot. So what do you got for us?
Eoin Comerford
00:36:54.030 - 00:39:30.858
I did.
So just this week, the SIA came out with their participation study which revealed that snowboarding and cross country skiing were the most diverse and that alpine skiing was the least diverse. And I think, color me not surprised, I guess, that snowboarding, a little bit more approachable, inclusive. Downhill skiing, not so much.
But it really gets to a bigger issue, which is this challenge that we have around talking about inclusivity and diversity in the outdoor industry. And we haven't really made a ton of headway, I would say, as an industry, in this regard.
And I think part of the issue is the fact that we have viewed DEI as a Thing from a values based imperative. What I mean is we're saying we're doing it because we think it's the right thing to do, right?
And to me, that never works for a business because it's not core to who they are as a business. It's not core to who they are as a brand. It's sort of an added on thing.
And so almost by its nature, it becomes performative or worse yet, just forgot. Right? So to me, as an industry, what we need to do is understand that inclusion and diversity are a business imperative. Right?
It's not some value based, you know, make society a better place thing.
It's like if we don't get our shit together as an industry and figure out how to be inclusive to people of all races, genders, religion, what have you, we are going to get left behind. All right. This is why I worked with Teresa Baker to help found the Outdoor Diversity Alliance.
So it was purely out of what I call pragmatic capitalism that I said to Teresa, we need to make this thing happen. And so that was something that started in 2023. We really got rolling this year.
But I would say it is criminal that we don't have 80% of the brands that are in OIA as members of the ODA. It is criminal and it is a black eye in this industry. We do have leaders that have joined.
We've got Keen, we've got Burton boa, smartwool, REI is a member. Actually, Decathlon is a member. Nemo Peak designs on running. And that's it as far as I know.
Colin True
00:39:31.034 - 00:39:31.818
Wow.
Eoin Comerford
00:39:31.994 - 00:40:12.220
Think about all of the different brands that could be and should be members of the Outdoor Diversity alliance that are not. So I am calling you out today. The Brookings Institute says that by 2045, the US will become a majority minority country. Okay?
So that's what the demographics say today as we sit here. A majority of people under the age of 18 identify as a person of color. Okay? That is demographics that's happening today.
If we as an industry don't understand that we need to be more inclusive and more diverse, we will get left behind. That is my parting shot.
Chris DeMakes
00:40:14.080 - 00:40:16.460
It's time for our parting shot.
Colin True
00:40:18.400 - 00:43:04.852
All right, guys, as you may have noticed, we had some microphone issues this week. And look, it happens. If you listen to enough podcasts, you know that it happens.
So in addition to Owen's parting shot, I'm going to end the show with my parting shot. No parting shot from producer Dave.
And my parting shot this week is about handwritten notes because I saw someone on LinkedIn this week and I honestly can't remember who it was, extolling the virtues of sending handwritten notes, thank yous and whatnot, and how technology can't beat a handwritten note because of the effort that goes into the writing and the sending of a paper or card based note of thanks. And to that I say, well, if you believe that, you're objectively wrong, because I don't feel that way.
Now, before you think you know where this is going and I'm going to talk about why a digital message is equal to a written message. Nope. The reason I don't like handwritten notes isn't because I don't like writing them.
Well, actually that is part of it, but it's because I don't want your handwritten note. Look, the sentiment is what matters here, right?
So spelling out two scenarios where the same message is sent digitally or you write it down and mail it to me, the message translates the same. But when you send me a note or a card, what are you expecting at that point? I mean, am I supposed to keep this thing if I throw it away?
Do you consider that disrespectful or rude?
What about the resources that were required to produce the paper or card and the impact to the environment to ship the card when you could have just sent me a text message and had the exact same impact? I don't see the effort you put into writing and mailing me a card is worth anything more than I would get from an email.
I only see the work you gave me as a result of sending me a piece of paper that I'm going to feel guilty about throwing away. Don't give me work to do because you think that writing something out weirdly holds more meaning over typing it out.
I'm obviously not a sentimental person and I don't want more stuff to hoard because of your belief it's more thoughtful. It's the thought and the words that matter, not the way they are offered to the person being thought of.
Can we please evolve this part of our lizard brain? Or just be upfront about it and just ask me, say to me, hey, hey, hey. I like to send cards. Do you like to receive cards?
And I'll tell you no, don't waste your time or mine. Just shoot me a text and say thanks. It's the presumption that written notes are just so obviously better that I take umbrage with.
And that's why this is my parting shot. All right, we can wrap it up right there. The Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight llc. Our producer today was producer David Carstadt.
Art direction provided by Sarah the slayer of Gifts Gensert. I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening. And he's here to take us out. It's Chris D'makes. He's here to sing the Rock Fight Fight song.
We'll see you next time, Rock fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:43:04.916 - 00:44:04.840
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