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Today on THE ROCK FIGHT (an outdoor podcast that aims for the head) Colin opens the show (01:05) by ranking the 10 outdoor shoes that appear on Footwear News list of The Greatest Shoes of All Time.
Then Colin and Producer Dave run through the following headlines that came out of the outdoor industry over the past week:
Lolë Brands has acquired Sanuk from Deckers. But why? (24:57)
Black Diamond is partnering with Denver based outdoor retailer Wilderness Exchange to launch a 'partner run mountain shop'. Is this the brand partnership we've been waiting for? (31:24)
Jack Wolfskin's pull out of North America has positively affected their bottom line. Can they ever come back to the USA? (37:10)
Parting Shot: Colin throws a rock at Star Wars. Producer Dave proves he's a big Ent guy. (41:45)
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Episode Transcript
Colin (00:00):
Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak out truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin true. It's Monday and time for our weekly spin through some of the more notable stories to come out of the outdoor industry over the past week. And today we'll be talking about Lola's acquisition of bds retail partnership and Jack Wolfs Skin's American retreat. But before we get to any of those, we got a few housekeeping items for you. We always ask you please follow and rate the show wherever you're listening on any podcast app. You guys have been really coming through on this and it's been really helping us out. We're finding new listeners every single day to leave us that five star rating. If you haven't already, please help out the show and also send your feedback by sending an email to my rock fight@gmail.com. And lastly, head over to rock fight.co. Click join the mailing list so that you can get our weekly newsletter news from the front in your inbox every Sunday morning. I think that's about it. That wraps it up. Let's start the show.
(01:04):
Alright, I want to open today by talking about an article published a few weeks ago by Footwear News called The Greatest Shoes of All Time. A look at the icons of footwear. It's a pretty great list of 77 footwear brands and styles across pretty much genres and fashion and athletics. It's shoes. It's not really definitely shoes. We were going to talk about boots at some point, but no boots really included. It's a lot of athletic shoes, high heels, pumps, flats, the loafers type shoes, a lot of silhouettes. And I've linked to the article in the show notes so you can see the whole thing. And really my only criticism of the list, I actually thought it was a pretty great list, even though it included Crocs, which we are not going to talk about anymore here, but they didn't rank all 77 and I felt like that was a missed opportunity. Come on man. Name the number one greatest shoe of all time.
Producer Dave (01:54):
We call that a cop out Colin. It is
Colin (01:56):
A bit of a cop out. But the variety of the 77 styles was really well done as looking through the list. I found 10 purely outdoor shoes and outdoor in the sense that they were either created for use on dirt or their adoption or development. Played some specific role in the growth of an outdoor category. So what I'm going to do today with producer Dave's help. We're going to do what footwear news didn't have the balls to do. We're going to rank the 10 outdoor styles from the list of the greatest shoes of all time. I think I was pretty stoked that there was 10, there's 77, 10 outdoor shoes. It felt right. There's a lot of sneakers we're not going to talk about. So in terms of truly outdoor shoes, I was like, ten's a good number. I mean, that's tough. It's a broad list. So 10 sounded tough, 10 felt right. So anyway, we're just teasing you two footwear news. We're just teasing. We want you to rank these things because it's a strong list. You should rank them. I've been really much more fun. You could have done it every year then. That's this year's edition of the Iconic List. The number one change this year, whatever.
Producer Dave (02:54):
Look that brand, you're worried about offending, they're not going to advertise. Okay, it's just not going to happen. Don't about it. Let it fly's true. Let it fly.
Colin (03:02):
So proser, Dave will be weighing in. He has very strong footwear opinions as well. Alright, so at number 10 we have the Merrill Moab and I had to put Merrill Moab at number 10. It's the worst shoe on the list, the worst outdoor shoe on this list. It's the entry I have the biggest beef with because if you're going to put a marrow on the list, I feel like it should be the jungle runner or the jungle mock. The Moab didn't come out until 2007. Well after the sneaker hiking boot hybrid and shoe category had been established by the time Moab came out. Also, trail runners were pretty well established as an option for hikers as well. So of all of these 10, this was an easy, just put it at the bottom. I'm guessing footwear news wanted shoes that you could still buy, but
Producer Dave (03:43):
I totally agree with you about the Jungle Mock. That has a much more important place in at least the pantheon of outdoor footwear for sure. But I will give the Moab credit in the sense that they have really come to define what that light hiker, mid-range shoe, it's almost like the SUV of shoes. It's not a truck, it's not a car, it's somewhere in between. And they all look alike, right? Everybody followed that look. So it's hard to find one that doesn't. So definitely just based on that pretty important silhouette, even though you're right, it didn't invent the category or it's a relatively new shoe.
Colin (04:22):
Yeah, visually, you're right, it's still impacting the category, right? Obos, other brands seem to probably look at that and be like, yeah, there's definitely some design aesthetics that we share. Keen, absolutely keen for sure.
Producer Dave (04:32):
They look very much the same from that cut, from that same cloth. So
Colin (04:36):
Alright, number nine and longtime listeners, I don't want you to at me on this because I included it as an outdoor shoe, but it's the Timberland six inch boot, AKA, the yellow boot, AKA, the 160 ones AKA, the Wheaties, the classic boot earns its place on this list, even if its breakthrough, came from more urban fashiony adoptions. When the Yellow Boot, which was an eight inch version, actually came out in 1973. It was a truly waterproof leather work boot that used injection molding to create the outsole. That's a lot of innovation that came out of this boot, and it set the table for outdoor footwear to come. So I am putting it on the list.
Producer Dave (05:13):
Oh, I think it belongs there for sure. I mean, what would you pair with your puffer jacket in 1990s, wrap videos if you didn't have Tims,
Colin (05:21):
The waterproofness, the injection molding, and ultimately completing the outdoor urban look. What are you going to do? And we're going to talk, a couple of these are now in the, if you're like, I'm creating my closet of staples that need to have the yellow Boot is one of those shoes that you are going to have. Alright, number eight, the UGG Classic Short Boot. So Timberland actually kicks off a run of four straight styles that I feel like have meaningful outdoor heritage, but eventually became fashion staples. I think there's probably a lot of people out there that buy Uggs thinking that not knowing that they started as artisanal sheepskin boots in rural Australia in the 1920s. Then they became a crucial part of surf culture and then they finally sort of hit the big time thanks to Oprah Winfrey in 2003. We were just talking about those staples in your closet, the Chuck Taylors, the Timberlands, Adidas Superstars, whatever they've endured, repeat fashion cycles at this point and now become sort of timeless. But surfing is ultimately what made Uggs great. It's what they're known for from a functional point of view, a post surfing shoe. So I haven't
Producer Dave (06:24):
Met, I always thought it was the shoe you wore when you were disheveled coming out of a Starbucks based on all the imagery that was just
Colin (06:31):
All the A-listers,
Producer Dave (06:32):
Right? Or Britney Spears.
Colin (06:34):
Number seven, the Sperry Topsider, and I think this is the perfect example of a product built to suit a need were invented after Paul Sperry, who was a sailor slipped, fell off of his boat and decided to build a footwear for boat decks. And nowadays I think you're more likely to see the boat shoes on the feet of New York Fert Bros wearing cubbies and Vineyard Vines. But we wouldn't have Modern Water pat shoes, Patagonia without Ferry Topsiders and Patagonia Fast. That's right. That's right. No longer embroidered with their own company they work for. There's workarounds,
Producer Dave (07:09):
Workaround,
Colin (07:09):
Scholar, pat. Yeah, exactly. Let's put stickers.
Producer Dave (07:15):
I agree with you, but this is hardly an outdoor shoe. Yes, it had its sailing roots, it's a boat shoe. It had its roots, but once it hit the preppy handbook, it really is now, it's now meant to be paired with argyle socks, right? This is,
Colin (07:29):
Well, just like the Timberland's meant to be paired with jeans and a T-shirt. I mean, it's not an outdoor shoe anymore. I think that's the point of this arc of the list. It's like these styles aren't really outdoor shoes anymore, but they were, well, it really
Producer Dave (07:43):
Sets off that cable knit sweater that's around your shoulders. It's just fantastic.
Colin (07:49):
It ties it all together. It's kind of like the dude drug.
Producer Dave (07:52):
It's very top cider. The rug of footwear.
Colin (07:55):
Well, the last one of these sort of iconic older styles that were outdoor who now maybe aren't as much anymore, is the lo bean bean boot. And it might be because I grew up in the Northeast, but nothing says like sloppy winter weather than a pair of bean boots. These were created in 1911 as a hunting boot by the just incredibly named Leon, Leon Wood bean to keep his feet from getting cold and wet while out hunting. Pretty much another preppy staple for as long as they were worn for function as well. Good job, Leon. Leon.
Producer Dave (08:29):
Solid inclusion here. Finally one that really lives up to its standing here that is iconic functional outdoor footwear at its best.
Colin (08:39):
Can we offer some advice to people out there maybe having children about the way the naming conventions for the names you pick for your kid, don't do your kid Dirty with Leon. Leon Dirty are, there's no reason he went by
Producer Dave (08:48):
Ll That's the aspiration, right? The ll and how did that work out? He had an incredible music career, so I think you got to think about that.
Colin (08:58):
Where was the LL Cool j ll Beam collaboration. How did this never happen? Right?
Producer Dave (09:03):
You're absolutely right. Oh
Colin (09:05):
My God, missed opportunity.
Producer Dave (09:07):
Well up there in Maine, maybe they're just now getting some of that new music.
Colin (09:11):
Okay, so that's basically the top five, right? Or the bottom five? The top five are kicking it off with the Hoka speed goat. And personally I wanted to put the Speed Goat lower on this list because the Bondi was the first style that kind of kicked it all off for Hoka. But as footwear news points out in their blurb, the Speed Goat is probably the style that most people have bought from Hoka when it comes to trail pursuits. And you kind of have to give Hoka credit for being the catalyst for maximal midsoles coming out of the minimalist movement of the early 2010s. And look, it's Hoka. They're still the footwear brand of the moment, so it's kind of hard to put them really any lower on this list.
Producer Dave (09:49):
Yeah, I'll allow it.
Colin (09:54):
All right guys, get ready. This is where Dave's going to blow his top. I have number four on the list. The Teva original Universal, Dave Stead is the biggest Teva defender in the universe. That is not true. I wrote my notes that Teva is sort of the Pearl Jam of outdoor shoes in that they're really authentic and innovative brand or band as it were. And as soon as it was launched though, it became an instant success and immediately adopted by the fashion side of things. But I don't think that unlike Pearl Jam, they haven't aged as well and it's not really their fault. I mean, the two strapp design is a staple of off-brand sandals that you find in Famous Footwear and DSW. But it doesn't diminish the Teva story, Dave. It doesn't. No, he looks so sad over here. I don't want to tease what's at number one on the list, but unlike that product, it was Teva that actually brought the innovation to river enthusiasts everywhere. Before that it was flip flops and old sneakers before Teva entered the scene. So Teva deserves some more love, but I really don't feel like I can put them higher than four on this list.
Producer Dave (10:52):
Go ahead. I would agree with you if I
Colin (10:54):
Didn't know what
Producer Dave (10:54):
Two, three in one were, but look, Teva didn't just take, you're talking about the river runner. Yeah, they invented the category, right? This is a category invention and no other shoe up here actually even can make that claim that it invented a new section of the wall.
Colin (11:16):
I'd say LL Bean and the Sperry top side of would like a wear. Those are styles they Those
Producer Dave (11:21):
Are styles. Well, I'm just saying in terms of an iconic product Hall of fame worthy product, this is the one that created the category and it was a patented invention that had its run the four post kind of construction and other players emulate. So they were able to, I think, to their benefit and their detriment didn't have to innovate as much beyond, so they kind of got complacent in that. And I think their trajectory has shown kind of fits and starts of that. And they certainly did allow a lot of other players to come into the market at one time who now kind of created the modern sports sandal category for sure. So I think that on alone, and obviously I love the authentic story, mark Thatcher is a river guide, kind of seeing a need using the Velcro or hook and loop as they would call without violating a patent or a copyright. So yeah, I think based on that, it has a pretty strong claim. I mean, look, number four is a good number, but yeah, and you're right, they still look the way they did. In some ways that's good, but certainly it allowed other players to update the model and maybe even take it to better places.
Colin (12:44):
Let's think of all those 79-year-old bookshop owners that wouldn't have had shoes if it weren't for Teva.
Producer Dave (12:49):
Well, this goes back to some of our other missing sandals that are on here that they would've just stuck with.
Colin (12:57):
They buy the off price brand. We don't buy Teva's. That's expensive.
Producer Dave (13:02):
That's right.
Colin (13:03):
Well, we're not done with River shoes yet. Before we get there though, number three, I have the Rell Caribou, and I'm curious your opinion on this. I think of all the brands that Columbia has acquired over the years, the one with the least amount of Columbia stink on them is probably Rell. I mean, they're just simply warm winter boots, simple and effective. They've grown. Columbia has grown the line pretty extensively compared to what it was when they acquired it, but it's basically, it's like, look, what do you want to wear when you get shoveling the driveway? Or you can also use it on that snowshoe hike and a trusty pair of sores takes a lot of winter boxes. I think of all the shoes on this list, if you're going to pick one that's like, what's the one you're going to default to in the most basic place that you would need it? It's like re's on a cold and snowy day. And so I kind of felt like that carried some weight to be like, look, this is just the simplest thing that works the best.
Producer Dave (13:54):
Yeah, look, Rell great authenticity, their contribution is again the stylization. And they had a great run with that and Columbia kind of bought 'em on a high for sure, but it's still, it's a good look of the outdoor. It's very much similar to the rise of Ugg, taking this kind of basic functional product and bringing style and having that style catch what everyone's looking for.
Colin (14:20):
Alright, number two, and actually number one as well, which we'll get to, but both of them at the number two and number one spot, because these are shoes that have sort of endeared themselves to multiple audiences. Multiple groups can lay claim to both of these styles, even if the heritage shows who they were invented for specifically. So number two is the ultra loan peak, and when it comes to Lone Peak, it was brought to market as a running shoe. I love that. Footwear News actually chose to feature an older style of the Lone Peak, which I actually owned that one and I loved that one. It was a completely dorky looking, terrible looking shoe, but just performed beautifully. But that was a running shoe that was then adopted by the hiking and through hiking community. It's beloved by the ultra running world. It's definitely the shoe I've worn the most over the last 10 years. So I will totally admit my bias here, but I do think I would like to see them put a zebra ole on it ultra. If you're listening, make me happy. Maybe make me one of those, do that specifically for me for putting you at number two on this list. But I think the loan peak has been not as successful probably as a speed goat from a unit sold. But in terms of people who wear the loan peak, they will die on that hill maybe sometimes. Literally.
Producer Dave (15:25):
Is that a really a good quality statement there, Colin?
Colin (15:29):
No, I shouldn't have said that.
Producer Dave (15:31):
I too am a fan of Ultra's shoes. I wear them almost exclusively for that kind of stuff. However, my Homem aside, I will not let it cloud my judgment. They do not belong at number two. They don't belong on this list, right? They were talking about all time, come on, they're just getting going. Let's see, it's a running shoe. Why
Colin (15:55):
Does Hoka belong on the list? Then they came out around the same time, Hoka, why is Hoka allowed on the
Producer Dave (16:00):
List? I put them on the list them on the
Colin (16:02):
List. Number one, we didn't make the list. We
Producer Dave (16:04):
Didn't
Colin (16:04):
Just choose this.
Producer Dave (16:05):
This is the business one
Colin (16:07):
List
Producer Dave (16:07):
Where recognition. I love the Ultras that I think they're a great crossover, but how do you not have Solomon on this list? You're talking about crossover. Well, that's a really good fucking point. Where is, I mean, come on. Come on.
Colin (16:20):
God. Did we Ms. Solomon? Do I need to go Just double check the list. We
Producer Dave (16:23):
Real quick. A few things for sure. I mean you get to your,
Colin (16:26):
Yeah, no Solomon.
Producer Dave (16:27):
No Solomon.
Colin (16:28):
Well, right, and we'll get into some omissions in a second. I think we're ranking the 10 that we found on their list, so I don't really know. I don't think maybe you could make the case for swapping Ultra and Hoka, but I personally think the broader adoption of the Lone Peak warrants mentioning, and that also plays into number one, which is the Chaco Z handle. I mean, of these 10 shoes, I don't know what else it could be. You mentioned when we're talking about Teva, they absolutely created the sports handle category, but then Chaco just kind of picked up the ball and ran with it. It's become, there are river shoes. They're climbing approach shoes or the Go-to summer shoe. For anyone living in a mountain town, this is definitely, they talk about that closet and your kit in the closet and the shoes you have in it. Maybe it isn't everybody that has one of these, but if you do something in the outdoors, you got a pair of Chacos and it really completed the costume for what an outdoorsy person wears with the plaid shirt, the five panel hat, and a pair of patag GoGy
Producer Dave (17:23):
Baggie. Without a doubt, the ZT Strapp created that look to it, the sculpted footbed too, which gave you a little bit more support than the Teva, which is flat also created that sidewall kind of impression that it just looked sleeker, right? It just looked like for sure. No, they did. They perfected the silhouette for sure. No doubt. Are they the number one outdoor shoe on the list? Maybe.
Colin (17:49):
I don't know what you'd put above it. I think when you think about what it means to the community of people who wear these products, it's one of those, you got to have it now. I think unfortunately for them, they're owned by Wolverine who I think is doing their damnedest to kill it. They've had a giant line expansion over the years. There's been a massive decline in qualities. I've talked to people who are repping them, who are really disappointed with some of what they're doing there, Colin. We'll, what happens?
Producer Dave (18:12):
Wolverine has their hands full trying to kill Meryl. So I think that Chaco might be kind of just avoiding some of the glare of that. It's
Colin (18:20):
A high mentality maybe to kill Merrill. Just going to move into
Producer Dave (18:23):
The shadow a little bit. Okay, you guys go ahead and I'll try to exist.
Colin (18:27):
I feel like Meryl's kind of like the cockroach of outdoor shoes. He just can't die. You're not going to kill Meryl. What are you doing?
Producer Dave (18:32):
No, it's true. It's true. Right?
Colin (18:35):
But listen, what's our favorite shoe on the show? It's the Bedrock, right? So I think that's an ascendant brand. I know our art director, Sarah Genser, very proud of her. She got her first pair of, she did, I literally was sitting in a locker room at an ice rink wearing bedrocks and she's like, Hey, I'm thinking of getting these. Are they really that good? I sent her a picture of my feet. I'm like, I'm wearing 'em right now. They're the best shoe I owed. So who knows how long Chaco sits on the throne? But I think when you're looking at again, these 10 specific styles that were on this specific list from the start, I'm like, well, this is number one. Alright, so who are your A missions? Let's talk about who should have been on the list. And
Producer Dave (19:10):
It worked, at least mentioned, we just brought up Solomon. How do you not have Solomon in terms
Colin (19:14):
Of, yeah, Solomon. Yeah. I don't know why terms
Producer Dave (19:15):
Bringing this crossover of technical and running into the light hiking faster, and they had a
Colin (19:20):
Moment a couple of years ago with Rihanna. They did, they, they're having fashion moments
Producer Dave (19:24):
Now. Just a really important brand in the space. It's a solid piece to it. When we're talking about Merrill, I think there was a reason for the Moabs inclusion because of how it's, the silhouette has become defacto. But if you're talking about the history of say the light hiker, which that kind of fits within the high-tech, Sierra Light, that's the first light
Colin (19:48):
Hiker man, you're right
Producer Dave (19:49):
Of the category in the late seventies,
Colin (19:50):
Hightech was the
Producer Dave (19:51):
Right before they stripped all the soul out of that brand and took it into Payless. But it really set the tone that Nike's approach, the
Colin (20:04):
A-C-G-A-C-G
Producer Dave (20:05):
Mells, the solos of the eighties even, what is it? And Garmont and VAs all started to change their styles during that. Yeah, before
Colin (20:14):
It was sneakers boots.
Producer Dave (20:16):
That's right. It was absolutely. And you got to give high tech credit for that. So I think that's a big piece of it, just a CG in general. I mean had,
Colin (20:27):
Well, there was so much Nike on this list, probably guess that sense
Producer Dave (20:29):
For sure. Like I said, super important to pushing the outdoor footwear category into some style and some mainstream.
Colin (20:36):
If everything else out of fear, it was like, oh shit, Nike's coming for us. We got to do other stuff. The big one for me that wasn't on here was Birkenstock. I don't know how you don't have Birkenstock on this list.
Producer Dave (20:44):
I see that again, important to the community. Maybe that's a lifetime achievement award as opposed to an actual part of the functional sneaker piece of this. But yeah, I agree. I mean, again, you cannot hard not to have them as part of the conversation. We have the Teva, okay, it pains me to say this, but here we go. I think you got to have a vibrant five fingers up here.
Colin (21:10):
I thought of that too,
Producer Dave (21:11):
As much as it, like I said,
Colin (21:13):
It's Annik
Producer Dave (21:14):
Icon. It is. And they changed the conversation in terms,
Colin (21:18):
It's like if you won the Razzy and an Oscar in the same year. That's
Producer Dave (21:21):
Right. That's right. It was a big year. So I think that's a missing piece. And you know what too, the other one I would put on here, and I don't know if it got there, but the rainbow, the flip flop.
Colin (21:32):
Oh, flip flop. They had another flip flop on there. I can't remember the name of it. It seemed like they were alluding, this was one of the original talk
Producer Dave (21:38):
About saturating the surf culture. Also, if you were going to get a flip flop and you were kind of adjacent to that, it just for so long fit that bill before everybody made flip flops before it became just the defacto and before brands like AKA came in and upped the ante in terms of what a premium kind of offering could be. So I don't know, those to me kind of fit this. The maybe should have a little bit more. Oh, well actually I have one more outdoor footwear that did not get on our list and that would be the Chuck Taylor or the all-star. I mean, because if you take a look at the 1960s and seventies and you look at these images and you'll see this big bearded dude with this framed pack and this roll and a shovel hanging down the side. He's going camping and he's got a fricking RV issue, shovel and the big athletic socks cutoffs and chucks, and I'm going on a five day hike. Didn't even think of it. So I think
Colin (22:38):
We were so much cooler back then.
Producer Dave (22:40):
Well at least they had more foot problems in their older age. But I have to say that gets honorable mention into the community as well.
Colin (22:48):
Yeah, that's a good one. Yeah, the only one of the ones I had to build off what you said, obviously the Birkenstock, I feel like is am Miss by the way. They did 77, just add 23 more, make it even a hundred.
(22:58):
But the Nyco Waffle trainer, which I know again, the specific style probably not available is why it's not on. But the Bill Bowerman outsole influenced so much of athletics and outdoor footwear and then the Montreal Hard Rock, because that just was like Montreal was, you mentioned Montreal earlier and that was another, not to take another shot at Columbia, but it's like took the coolest shoe in the marketplace and the outdoor marketplace bought a montre and then kind of killed it. And the Hard Rock was that was the shit shoe back in like oh 2 0 3. So right around there. But overall, I mean that's a tough, anytime you're making lists, you're going to have people like us being critical. I was making a little bit of fun of you footwear news. Thanks for putting it out. Thanks for giving us some fodder to talk about. This was fun for sure. All right, well that wraps up that segment right now though. It is time for our weekly segment. Make sure you're getting more out of the outdoors. It's time for more with Themore.
(23:58):
So the last few weeks during More with Themore, we've talked about the different Thermo products that apparel, brand designers, that apparel brand designers and developers can implement into garments. And one thing we haven't mentioned for a while, and maybe the most important from Themore stable of amazing insulation is eco down fibers. Ocean, which is made exclusively from Ocean cycle certified plastics. The same ocean bound plastics that make up as much as 80% of plastic pollution in our oceans eco down fibers. Ocean is light, soft, warm, and durable. It's easily washable and avoids clumping. Ocean bound plastics is plastic waste discarded near the ocean and therefore we're at risk of entering the ocean like bottles, cartons, and bags. By taking this waste and turning it into something useful. Themore is not only creating the best installation for future outdoor apparel, but they're doing it in a meaningful way because whether you're making amazing new garments or staying warm and safe out on the trail, you can do more. But Themore,
Producer Dave (24:53):
Well said.
Colin (24:55):
Thank you. Thank you. Alright, let's run through some headlines to come out of the outdoor industry over the past week. First up, per SGB and Footwear News, a lot of footwear news play today, almost a year since Stecker announced their intentions as sell off ook. It finally has Lole brands, by the way I looked that up, not Lo Lee, it's LOLE with an oun. So they're big motley crew fans up there in Canada. Low lay brands picked up the casual footwear brand in a deal where the terms were not disclosed. Todd Steele, Lole, CEO, said that there are a lot of common themes between our two brands from sustainability to creativity to the importance and connection of community. We also think ook can benefit from our global perspectives since a large part of our business is done outside of the us. The acquisition is the second for Lole, who in April, 2023, they also bought sustainable fashion retailer epoch evolution also for an undisclosed amount.
(25:49):
So Lole, like I mentioned, is a Canadian athletic brand. I always kind of viewed them as someone who's riding Lululemon's coattails. Not to be crass, but that's kind how I viewed them. In fact, if you Google lole, excuse me, one of the suggested answers that pops up is lole made by Lululemon. So I suppose the acquisition of ook has to continue to become that larger athletic brand and compete with the Lulus of the world. But looking at the brand's website, I have to wonder why Ook, I mean I guess it doesn't have to be synergy between the two brands, but there's so athletic and lifestyle focused and ook is really that kind of broey frat guy vibe going on. So I don't know, maybe it's better to acquire than to build and they just tell this is a good opportunity. I dunno, what do you think?
Producer Dave (26:38):
Yeah, well you're right. It would seem the vibes definitely don't for sure. But look, if you can segment your business and play ook, it's funny, I never connected Ook with kind of the frat guy kind of thing. It was to me always more of a groovy kind of lifestyle brand where hey dude falls into that frat guy. It's pretty close,
Colin (27:02):
Pretty
Producer Dave (27:03):
Fine line there between them. Dave Matthews is the center of that Venn diagram, actually just
Colin (27:08):
Standing there with his arms crossed right in the middle,
Producer Dave (27:11):
Taking tickets from both
Colin (27:12):
Sides going.
Producer Dave (27:14):
That's right, that's right. So I guess that's good. When you said that Lola had something in common they were talking about in common with Ook, I was like, oh, they were owned and discarded by Deckers too. That was my first thought, which actually realized that we're having a budding category starting to develop. It's called the CBDK or Cool Brands Deckers killed, right? I mean, oh my.
Colin (27:37):
It's a category. They all just go
Producer Dave (27:38):
Back. Look, Deckers had their own Flip-flop before they licensed Teva, before they licensed Ugg and developed that side of their business, which was a cool, funky, authentic little flip-flop. Again, very core to the surf culture, but that was kind of its cool piece. And then they bought Simple, right? They bought the original Over Simple. For those that don't know or remember Simple I, it's kind of the icon of Gen X nihilism and I don't care. It was kind of the sarcastic, it was basic, it was simple. Everything about their brands, I'm
Colin (28:10):
Wearing sneakers, but they were
Producer Dave (28:10):
Better sneakers, they were cool, they were Wellmade and fun fact that Simple was actually the original sponsor to the first year of the Warp Tour. It was actually the Simple Warp tour really, when they were kind of just
Colin (28:25):
Simple or drove shoes driving around. That was one of the show that you, hold on, I get it that the low point of the cycle where people weren't wearing shoes that look like that, that's going to come back. It's a classic look, there's such a good look at
Producer Dave (28:34):
You, right? So they've been passed around and they did. So that's kind of a cool, and of course the Warp Tour would go on to be one of the most successful music festivals of all time, especially in an era that was filled with 'em. So Deckers had that, then they gave that away after just kind of burying it. Now they've done the same thing to ook. Why they never took Teva into that realm. I don't understand. That could have been easily a pivot, which again, getting some of that lifestyle identifier that Jocko filled as this kind of, so they've always kind of pushed against it. I don't think will ever join that club actually, even if they do get rid of it, I don't
Colin (29:11):
Think, I don't know. I'm still taking bets. If Nu actually brings us shoe to market the second time around would
Producer Dave (29:16):
Say and never will be cool, but that's just, they
Colin (29:20):
Killed it once and then they're going to try it. They're going to basically going to kill it
Producer Dave (29:22):
Again. So again, I do, I think we've got a segment or at least a Reddit thread showing up here and trying to be formed. So
Colin (29:30):
You think if you pan around inside Decker's hq, if you get to Teva, it's like the dudes from Shawshank, they all just, they're institutionalized at this point. They don't really like being there, but they're like, this all I've known my entire life. And then you get over to Hoka and it's like a party, like the cool Bacon money brand. They're getting whatever they want from management. I think there's Ook is throwing their own party down. We're free.
Producer Dave (29:52):
Yeah, we're happy baby. I think Kevin still convinced that they can be a fashion brand on the order of those heels and loafers and things you were talking about earlier and it's
Colin (30:02):
Just well, they're big push that was running shoes. They're making open toed running shoes
Producer Dave (30:06):
Into who you are. It's such a vibrant category. You could just really take, but hey.
Colin (30:13):
Yeah, I don't know man. I think it's a ook. I never really got, I mean even when, I bet they were cool when they launched, it was the whole like, Hey, these are sandals. Even though they were shoes, that was the whole vibe, right? It is like these are basically closed toed slip-ons sandals. That was their whole thing. And the first one they made was using artificial grass and all that kind of stuff. I get it. I don't really know what value something like that holds. They never were able to bring that kind of iconic, we have that line up in your closet again, here's the staple from each brand. What's your ook or do you even have a ook? And now is that what hey dude's trying to become clearly. And I think it's a very specific kind of consumer. Clearly. Sure, they've sold a lot of
Producer Dave (30:54):
Them. Jimmy Buffett made a career off of it.
Colin (30:57):
Yeah, right. Yeah, there you go. Set up a tent at all. Like the Jimmy Buffett, pretty sure they did cover bands. I just don't know how it integrates. Or maybe it doesn't need to, maybe their plans are not to integrate. We're going to see it's early days here, but it just like l le. You think about Lulu is launching shoes that are in line with, I'm a Lulu customer. I want to have Lulu shoes. I don't look at the L lay line and be like, oh yeah, I'm going to rock some sun nooks with that. It just doesn't match, so I dunno if to keep an eye on it. Alright, next up. Per SGB Black Diamond Equipment is partnering with Wilderness Exchange, which is an outdoor gear shop in Denver to launch the first partner run mountain shop at North America. According to Don Bushey, the owner of Wilderness Exchange Black Diamond, this is a quote, is the iconic North American climb, ski and mountain equipment brand for many outdoor special retailers.
(31:44):
It's their number one brand in their shop. The vision is to create something beyond the standard mono brand store. This will be a full service specialty mountain shop with other complimentary brands to complete the kit Wilderness Exchange. They're actually going to close on October 27th for renovations and not reopen again until January. So they're sacrificing their holiday season to go and do this and be ready for this partnership. Details are pretty light is basically what I just read to you was the summation of it all. I've actually reached out to Don Bushy and Neil Fisk who's the president of Black Diamond because I'd like to have them on the show in the future because this is the kind of relationship, I'm really excited to see how it plays out. I mean, historically the models you'd see from brands when it comes to retail is either a shop and shop in a store like Wilderness Exchange.
(32:28):
Like hey, we have this little corner of the store, we brand it and it's like here's all the Black Diamond stuff. Or they just open up their own stores. And I've personally never believed in the brand store. I think it doesn't matter if it's a steel or a Patagonia or whoever, I just think it's uninteresting from a consumer point of view, it's costly. I think there's frankly little upside from a brand point of view. I'm sure there's someone out there who could tell me how much money someone makes from this. But a Patagonia I think is different than a steel steel's really tying their itching, their horses to that wagon of we're opening our own stores. And to kind of take this idea of, well, what if a brand effectively outsourced or licensed themselves to an independent retailer? I just think it makes a ton of sense.
(33:08):
They can own the categories in the shop for the things that they make and they can bring in the other brands, they can bring in other brands for the things that they don't. So for Black Diamond it's like, Hey, here's our skis, here's our climbing stuff. Here's some of the apparel we have. Hey, we don't make trail running shoes. Great. Here's our footwear wall, which has no black diamond stuff on it. And I think if you look back at someone like the North Face who started as a retailer and eventually went on to make their own gear, the house lines of an RES, excuse me, an REI or an EMS, this isn't that dissimilar, but it comes with way less risk for the dealer and probably for the brand as well. So anyway, I'm really excited to see how this plays out and hopefully have some of these folks on the show to talk about it. I think it's going to be really worth watching from how it could have impact the larger outdoor
Producer Dave (33:48):
Retail landscape. I agree with you. I think this is absolutely the future and could have been done a long time ago. I do think there is a place for the mono store, if you will, as brand showcases. I'm not
Colin (34:00):
Saying it won't work, I just think
Producer Dave (34:02):
As a strategy
Colin (34:03):
Can rest on
Producer Dave (34:03):
It for sure. I mean certainly Filson has used it to good effect and like you said Pat, so there are places that it works. I think this idea though of a galaxy of brands really also shows the outdoor industry as a less kind of at your throat competitor and more there's room for everybody. So let's create a space that we can all and the variety you're going to bring in more customers. Like you said, the experience is going to be better. Let the bigger brands shoulder some of the cost here to help make it possible. That's what BRAC Diamond's doing here. I think it's fantastic,
Colin (34:36):
But they don't have to sign a lease and they don't have to have inventory specific story it you're and pay people
Producer Dave (34:40):
Still and all stuff. You're still tied together. But you're right, it does go on somebody else's books. But let's be clear they're a part of this and if it doesn't work, they're going to take some loss. Oh
Colin (34:49):
Sure.
Producer Dave (34:49):
But I think
Colin (34:50):
No, and that's why hopefully Don comes on. I'm curious. I want to hear what he sees as the biggest upside of this as a
Producer Dave (34:56):
Retailer. And then there's also, again, the future state of brands are going to need more IRL touchpoints as we start talking about circularity in a meaningful way. You got to have collection of product at end of life. It is a huge piece that hasn't been solved and must be solved in order for us to even make any of our wonderful technology work, you got to be able to collect back. And so the idea that they can have a bigger hand in the real estate and how that expands out means that now repair, that means collection, all of these things start to enter into a feasibility versus just a box that gets unchecked at the bottom in a green statement. You know what I mean? It's just like, so that to me is a really exciting, how we can open that kind of stuff up for brands.
Colin (35:44):
I think just historically, everyone's just always looking for the silver bullet. I mean I think, sorry Steve, not just pick on you, but you're going in hard on catalogs and your own stores and look happily to have, I think it's Sully over there on, you could tell us about what you're working on too. I'm curious about that. But I think as we learned from Owen Comerford who's on this past week talking about cost of goods, inventory overhead from staff, all of these things versus Hey, how about these, especially retailers, do that work for you? And then for them it's like, great, now I have a partner who's going to help invest back in my business. I think, I'm sure there are pitfalls, I'm sure there are be ways this doesn't work, but I don't think it's been tried a whole bunch. And so I think kudos to BD for being creative and kudos to Don Bushy for saying like, yeah, let's give this a go. You're probably two thirds of these categories for me anyway right now. So let's give this a go. I had to drop this other little brand. Oh well I was going to sell B anyway,
Producer Dave (36:40):
It's all fun and games until they get the brand standards book come down. That's
Colin (36:45):
Right. What do you mean no beer
Producer Dave (36:48):
After
Colin (36:49):
3:00 PM What do you mean logo
Producer Dave (36:50):
Go has to appear 57 times?
Colin (36:54):
Well you're joking, but it's true, right? Because there's brands who would be like, well if we do this, this is the way we have to do it. It's kind of like easy guy still my shop. So there has to be a real alignment here for sure for it to work at all. But keep an eye on this last story from today is from the Daily Jack Wolfs skin announced in May its intention to leave the US and it appears it was a good decision owner of the German brand, Topgolf Callaway, seriously, I still can't get over this top golf Callaway. It was Jack Wolfs skin. They acquired Jack Wolfs skin in 2019 for a whopping 476 million they said last week that Wilkin has right-sized its business by choosing to focus on its core markets in central Europe and China. And in that same article in the daily renowned outdoor industry analyst, Matt Powell said that Jack Wolfs skin needs to be completely, and once that it is the brand can then be reintroduced in the us. I mean, I guess that price tag, that half a billion dollar price tag means that at some point they're going to have to try to come back into the US to make it worth it. But I'm not familiar enough with the wolf skin line to sort of weigh in on to know what is or isn't working.
Producer Dave (38:06):
I would just say there's a lot of re in that statement and reintroduced that would imply that it has imagination and has been introduced, which I would say there is a no,
Colin (38:17):
I didn't even know it was here, frankly.
Producer Dave (38:19):
Right. Well look at their ad spend. Look at where they really spent their time building brand here. And it's no wonder, right, and again,
Colin (38:28):
Was it like we got something placed at REI we're good probably it seems like where they really went with
Producer Dave (38:33):
Us. We have something placed at REI that looks like it belongs in Columbia, right? So the imagination of really what could be here from a core European brand, right? There's a story there for sure. Their originator, they're on par with Patagonia in terms of helping propagate polar tech and fleece from the eighties and nineties in terms of that look that we now call the vintage Look, they had a big hand in that. In fact at one point I think they were one of the largest cut and sowers of fleece in the world with their own factories in Europe back at that time. That's awesome. Major players. So really helped create that whole concept. And so there's a lot that could be told that they just were unwilling to do over here. And so to me it's a little unsurprising that they're kind of, what is it? Slinking back to their den. Sorry, but that had to be
Colin (39:26):
Back to the pack. Yeah,
Producer Dave (39:27):
Back to the pack, right.
Colin (39:28):
A I come back to do they need to come back here at all? I mean everything you just said, right? I mean I don't even know how you would fix the assortment so that it stands out if there's management issues, great work on that. But we're so over distributed. The types of products like you mentioned are a lot of things we already have. So I don't know to come back, it almost feels like, did you sort of overvalue them Topgolf Callaway and be like, oh, it's an outdoor brand that does all this incredible things you just mentioned in Europe, it'll just kill it here in the us. And it's like, well actually 99% of their line is all the stuff we already have here. So maybe the thing to watch is how do smaller brands who do have a unique story perform like a Houdini, folks like that, who do they start to get traction and there starts to be a demand for sva, these kind of brands that aren't as entrenched here yet or as broadly distributed. And then maybe there's a path there. I don't know. It's like to your point, it's introducing, bringing Jack Wolfs skin here is introducing another Columbia. I mean it's basically what it's right.
Producer Dave (40:31):
And again, without any, you're not setting the table for what your value or your distinct proposition is, right? And so all those,
Colin (40:39):
Right? And if it's like homemade fleece using quality fabric and I made in our own factory, he's like, well there's your story, but even then we got a lot of fleece here already.
Producer Dave (40:48):
Again, that's more of the authenticity why I am going to believe you and why that's the kind of that setting table. But you have to reintroduce, I'm a big believer in the one step back, two step forward when you are reintroducing a brand or relaunching a brand or let's say kind polishing a damaged piece. You have to take that time to give people the logic system to then assess your brand off of do you fit this box of authenticity? Yes, no. If it's yes, now I can start telling other contemporary stories and why you're going to want me now. But I've got to, so we're all starting with the same page of facts, if you will. And they didn't do that basic work in my opinion.
Colin (41:29):
Yeah. Well good luck Jack Wilson. Hopefully maybe we'll see you again here soon. I think right now Sierra might be licking their jobs going, come back to the us We need your stuff.
Producer Dave (41:40):
Passport should be good for another eight years, so they should be okay.
Colin (41:45):
Alright, we got a new segment to end the show today and going forward called our parting shot. And this can be anything. This doesn't have to be outdoor related. And Dave and I are just going to bring our own parting shot to the table. Mine is, I saw Alien Romulus over the weekend and it was awesome and I loved it and I started really thinking about it and as much I've been so down on Star Wars lately. I think Alien is the preeminent sci-fi action franchise of our time. Everyone can sit there and talk about why Star Wars is the shit and continues to be the one we talk about the most. It gets the most attention, but there's been more good alien movies than bad alien movies and certainly more good alien movies than Star Wars movies. So that's my parting shot. I'm just taking a shot at Star Wars. Screw you. Star Wars you make. All you do is make me sad. So that's my parting shot.
Producer Dave (42:32):
Wow. Yep. Can't believe we're leaving that. Just sit there. But that's it.
Colin (42:38):
A lot to unpack. But this is not an Alien or Star Wars podcast.
Producer Dave (42:41):
My parting shot is actually the book Finding the Mother Tree by Suzanne Simard.
Colin (42:48):
Controversial. What is that? No,
Producer Dave (42:50):
It's not a new book. I just reread it again this summer. She is the researcher who helped create a correlation between fungus and tree roots talking to one another and that the idea that the forest is far more connected and interdependent on each other than we ever knew. I thought this
Colin (43:09):
Was LSD that led to that happening.
Producer Dave (43:11):
That was prior to writing of the book. But it is a wonderful story of just kind of working against the grain in terms the way our systems are set up in terms of government and academia, kind of not always being the most welcome to new ideas and how persistence over time can help you crack that nut and it's a great fabulous story. So I recommend it highly. How was
Colin (43:36):
That a shot? What are you thinking a shot at? I'm
Producer Dave (43:38):
Taking a shot. A shot. Big science man. I think you can push back. No, there are rebels, there are rogues. Right?
Colin (43:48):
When you're getting your Covid booster next month, make sure that you're like, Hey man, big science, have you read this book?
Producer Dave (43:53):
That's what trees talk to each other. Deal with it.
Colin (43:57):
I saw Lord of the Rains deal with this. I know they do.
Producer Dave (43:59):
Dude, don't call them trees. Those are ENTs. You just pissed a bunch of angry. I know
Colin (44:04):
They're going to come step on my S
Producer Dave (44:06):
Or drop kick you like an orc.
Colin (44:09):
Alright, we can wrap it up there. What us going on this week? We have another conversation coming from Christina Henderson from Switchback. She's going to come on later this week to tell us about all the news coming out of Switchback over the last week we chatted about last week. She's going to give us some updates there. Then we have Gear and beer on Friday where, oh, we're talking to a journalist who wrote an article for Gear Junkie. I'm just going to tease it right there. That's what's going on on Gear and Beer on Friday. And I teased it last week, but I think it might actually happen that Saturday could actually be the return of Justin Hausman. Maybe he'll never return. We'll just keep teasing it. We'll see what happens. But Justin's been over on Gear and Beer, but he hasn't been back on the rock fight in a while. He is been really busy. So I think Saturday you might hear his lovely voice might become a campfire story. It might be, yeah, the Legend of Houseman, the legend of the Houseman, the rock fights of production of rock. Fight LLC. Our producer today, well you heard him throughout the episode. David Karta, art Direction by the bedrock clad Sarah Genser. I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening. And here to take us out. It's Krista Makes who's still on tour over in Europe, but he's checking in to sing the Rock Fight Fight song. We'll see you next time. Rock
Chris DeMakes (45:14):
Fighters. Rock fight, rock fight, fight, rock, fight, fight, fight where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. We talk about human power, outdoor activities and pick bites about topics that we find interesting. Black five calls your music the latest movie reviews ideas that aim for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rat, welcome to.