It's a return fire episode as Patagonia joins The Rock Fight to defend their efforts on PFAS!
Recently on The Rock Fight Colin was critical of a new video from Patagonia that detailed their journey to remove forever chemicals from their product line. In Colin's point of view he thought Patagonia was late to the party and this was a case where the brand was behind their peers rather than leading.
Patagonia heard that episode, and they're here today to throw some rocks of their own.
Today on the show Patagonia's VP of Global Product Footprint, Matt Dwyer, joins Colin to talk about the path Patagonia has taken when it comes to PFAS, the unique challenges they faced in order to remove these chemicals from their product line, and offer a glimpse into what lay ahead for outdoor product innovation.
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Episode Transcript
Colin True
00:00:00.160 - 00:03:26.064
All right, everyone, if you haven't heard, we have a new sponsor here on the Rock Fight and they are Oboz. Yeah, really many of you already know Oboz. They're that plucky little brand from Bozeman. That's how they got their name, by the way.
They're outdoor and from Bozeman. So Oboz, they stood up in 2007 in a crowded footwear space and said, hey, there's room for me too.
They were an upstart outlier with a weird name, a roomy toe box and well built offerings for committed hikers. A combination that has attracted a loyal following for going on 20 years.
And look, I'm happy to have Oboz join the Rock Fight because they are committed to shining a light on the core activity central to many of our outdoor pursuits. That activity, yeah, it's hiking. You know, the thing we all do, but very few of us actually ever talk about. Because, guys, we are unified by hiking.
Oboz, they love hiking. And that's something that I can get down with. Over the coming months, we'll be sharing news and products from our friends in Bozeman. So.
So welcome to the Rock Fight, Oboz. And now let's cue the intro. Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree.
This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True and today Patagonia is answering the call and they showed up to throw some rocks of their own.
But before we get to that, have you subscribed to Rock Fight's weekly newsletter? It's called News from the Front. It comes out every Tuesday.
And guys, this is a real newsletter with real content, not just another outdoor link aggregator. Headed to Rock Fight Co. Click join the mailing list to sign up.
And if you're new around here, we'd love for you to subscribe and join the Rock Fight by hitting the follow button on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on. Join the legion of followers who listen to the Rock Fight and also please, you know, give us that five star rating.
And also come back to the Rock Fight on Monday, this upcoming Monday, where it will be time again to list our top five outdoor brands. This time for accessories. You won't want to miss it. And alright, let's start the show.
A couple of weeks ago, Patagonia put out a video called the path to removing PFAs. And we here on the Rock Fight picked a few nits.
With the tone of that video, it seemed to me that there were others that had beaten Patagonia in the PFAS arms race. Brands like Fjallraven, who had been publicly addressing the issue since 2009, and Houdini, who announced that they were pfas free in 2018.
So while any work to improve their product line by removing forever chemicals was admirable as the leading brand of the outdoor space, it seemed a little disingenuous for Patagonia to position themselves as leading in this case. Now, if you watch the path to removing PFAs, one of the people featured in the video is Matt Dwyer.
Matt is Patagonia's VP of Global Product Footprint. He's worked at Patagonia for over 11 years in various roles, all having to do with materials, chemicals, and product development.
Now, I know Matt from my time at polartech and before we recorded a word of that other podcast, I dropp to let him know what I thought while watching the video and that I thought this was a case where they had gotten it wrong. And of course, that there was a seat on the podcast if he ever wanted to come on to talk about it. And guess what?
Matt is here today to return fire and give us the details behind Patagonia's efforts to move on from P. Bass, as well as a lot more. Welcome back to the Rock Fight, where today Patagonia is striking back at the Rock fight with Matt Dwyer.
All right, well, we're here today with Matt Dwyer, who's the vice President of Global Product Footprint at Patagonia. Welcome to the show, Matt. How's it going?
Matt Dwyer
00:03:26.232 - 00:03:30.592
Thank you, Colin. Doing well. Thank you for thinking of us and for the invite. Happy to be here.
Colin True
00:03:30.776 - 00:04:15.730
Oh, come on. You know, I reached out to you. We've known each other, I mean, I guess over going on 10, 11 years now.
Like, I think you got hired at Patagonia right before I got hired at Polar Tech. And then pretty quickly we were probably crossing paths with each other with the work we were both doing there.
But I, you know, when I, when I saw you in the video that we're going to talk about on the whole PFAS thing, I'm like, hey, man, saw your video. I have some thoughts. So it was not hard to kind of get you to come back on when you heard what some of our takes were.
But I do appreciate you coming on and pushing back, that this is the.
The whole point of the show is to, you know, like, kind of get a little deeper into the weeds on topics in the outdoor industry and, you know, if people have opposite opinions or or facts that we're not accounting for. They need to come on the show and talk about it. So I do appreciate you coming on today, man.
Matt Dwyer
00:04:15.900 - 00:04:23.090
Yeah, I love it. I'm here for it. And just so you know, I'm from outside of Philly and throwing rocks is kind of our love language. So I'm here. Let's go.
Colin True
00:04:24.030 - 00:05:27.118
Well, congrats on the Eagles and go Birds. It's been a good winner for you so far. We're not going to talk about politically, but, but sports wise, it's great.
And you got, you know, I'm sure the, the Phillies are probably going to be back on top. It's going to be great. We'll avoid the Sixers. We'll avoid Sixers talk. All right, so let's just dig into it, man.
Let's talk about TFAs, kind of in general to kind of kick things off because you have a unique background with this. Right. So PFAs, like a lot of things that are bad for us, is kind of a long history there as I'm talking to the audience.
I know you know that, but if you look back, you'll find indications that those who knew knew as far back as like the 1960s that there were risks to humans and the environment from Forever Chemicals. But that largely stayed quiet until about the mid-2000s when the public started to be informed of the risks of PFAs.
So you spent an early chunk of your career at Gore, in the past 11 or so years that we mentioned at Patagonia, working in and around materials, many of whom had some level of Forever Chemicals in their use, in their creation or their finishing. So can you guys just give us like a personal timeline of what you've come to know and understand about what we call Forever Chemicals, or pfas?
Matt Dwyer
00:05:27.294 - 00:06:10.988
Yeah, yeah, totally. And I'll, I'll go off script immediately and take us a little bit further than where you started.
So PFAs, or a family of chemistries containing the element fluorine in a certain molecular configuration, were developed in 1935-mid-1930s by the Dupont Corporation. Miracle of modern science. They don't stick. They help with flame retardants.
All these different things proliferated over decades and decades into life saving medical devices, Firefighting foam, the reason you don't get fingerprints on your iPhone screen, and a number of other applications. When you talk about the 1960s, there were people at said companies who knew what was going on.
And this is well documented and decided not to disclose it for the sake of shareholder value. And there's a couple. Very well done.
Colin True
00:06:11.044 - 00:06:13.000
That's never happened before on any.
Matt Dwyer
00:06:13.700 - 00:06:32.124
And a couple films about it as well. Yeah, My first experience with a.
A Gore Tex product or a pfast product was when my dad took me to the REI in Kachohakken, Pennsylvania and I got my first legitimate pair of Vasque hiking boots, which I actually still have. And they're still waterproof, so grew up in the outdoors doing all those things. Sundowners.
Colin True
00:06:32.172 - 00:06:32.972
Were they Sundowners?
Matt Dwyer
00:06:33.036 - 00:07:32.240
Sundowners, Yep. Nice badass, badass product right there. They. They still stand. So I went to school for material science, which was largely metal metallurgy.
I was familiar with Gore, loved the outdoors, and I heard they were a great company and just happened to be where I landed outside of school. And so for me it was as a product development engineer, young engineer.
It was designing, developing, commercializing, scaling ingredients containing pfas, Gore Tex materials for firefighting, for military usage, for consumer use, culminating around 2013 with what at the time was the new Gore Tex Pro shell, which has now been replaced at least once since then. So kind of call the first half of my career developing, slinging, otherwise putting pfas out into the world.
And then as soon as I showed up, I think day two or three here at Patagonia in November of 2013, it was, hey, so what do you think about this? And that's really where it started here.
Colin True
00:07:32.400 - 00:07:57.542
Were you. I mean, so I was gonna get to like kind of in. Within the. On the timeline.
It was around that mid 2000, 2008 was when you Greenpeace think it was, who started running a campaign about, about pfas. And that's when fialraven publicly announced. Announced their intention to move on being at Gore at the time before you got to Patagonia.
Was it pretty? And I'm not looking for any sort of like, gotcha stuff. I'm just kind of curious.
Was it sort of acknowledged or was it more like kind of like, you know, did you even. Were you even aware of the problem while you were at Gore?
Matt Dwyer
00:07:57.736 - 00:08:14.230
Yeah, well aware, actually.
And there was, there was work that, you know, back of the house stuff that'll never see the light of day, making progress towards removing those chemistries from their manufacturing, from their ingredients set and from their products at that time. So it was a well known issue for sure.
Colin True
00:08:15.010 - 00:08:52.890
So what goes into the decision, I guess to talk about something or not talk about something? Right. So like I pointed out in my initial piece, my initial statement too, about like Fial Raven just being Right ahead of it.
Trying to like, and not ahead of it because it's 2008. Right. But I mean, but in terms of like, when attention starts to come on audit, they decide, hey, we're just going to go for this.
And I understand there's that there's probably not a good one for one comparison between the product lines. There's definitely minutiae there to consider. But to publicly say, hey, we're aware of this and we're taking action. So, you know, you mentioned 2013.
You guys are. It sounds like the conversations were being held at Patagonia by the time you got there.
So, like, what, what, what's kind of like take us into that kind of time frame and like, what's happening and like, why something's being talked about versus maybe why it wasn't.
Matt Dwyer
00:08:53.230 - 00:09:58.564
Yeah, totally. It's a great question. And I think, just to, just to give you an idea of kind of what my personal ethos is, comes to exactly that question.
And this, this is actually very much something that Bob Gore instilled in me as a young engineer at Gore, where he had this way of stopping you mid sentence and saying, I am hearing too many ing words. Too many ing words. Don't tell me what you're going to go do.
Tell me what you did, what you learned, and that how that sets up kind of that next set of decisions you're going to make. So Patagonia has not been shy about the PFAS issue.
The Greenpeace detox campaign really got got steam in 2011 when they started talking about toxic chemistries being in the manufacturer of apparel. And then in 2015, they came out with their detox campaign.
And that's when they took a bunch of products from a bunch of different brands, tested it, including our Torrent Shell and a Gore Tex pant at the time, and said, hey, there's PFAS in this at the time. And what you'll notice if you read anything about this issue is that it's very much acronym soup.
There's PFCs, there are PFCs, there's PFAS, there's PFOA, PFO.
Colin True
00:09:58.612 - 00:09:59.428
It's all bad.
Matt Dwyer
00:09:59.564 - 00:13:02.716
I can give you a number, but these days we've centered around PFAS, which is that family of 14,000 or so of these chemistries. Only few are well understood from a nature and biological standpoint.
But the science is telling us today that we know enough that we can bucket them together broadly. We shouldn't have to wait for full knowledge these days to make These decisions. So when I got here at Patagonia, we were already talking about it.
We were already phasing out the long chain fluoropolymers, the C8s that you hear.
What that means is there's eight carbon atoms with these amazing little fluorine antennas around them that basically repel everything, which is why they work so well and also why they're problematic when they get into the environment, having been dumped into the environment for like 70 years in upstream manufacturer. That is really the issue we're talking about when we're talking about PFAs.
So we thought we were doing a great job and it was all good work getting to removing the C8 from our product line for our spring 16 season, which were decisions that were finished in 2014. So we work about two years ahead of the go to market calendar.
And right around that time is when the world started really learning that, hey, not only was the stuff you were using before bad when they were manufacturing it, but the stuff you replaced it with is probably just as bad. And that all just coincidentally happened at the same time.
So Even in our 2015 blog post around our DWR problem, which you can look up, I'll send it to you, we say a version of what I just said. And by the way, we're really not super happy with the solution set of today and intend to invest in the one for the future.
So at that time, it was, we got to get organized. We need a strategy. We need to know what our exposure is. We need to start measuring. We need to explore the universe and see what is out there.
And that in 2015, kind of end of 2014 was really the start of that journey. So I know lots of times when you talk about durable water repellents, it's easy to think about that.
Durable water repellent, like your DWR is the first signal that, that your jacket's working when it starts to get wet, right? It beads up, it rolls off. I can see that my jacket is protecting me when it fails. You get wet out, which is that fabric soaking up the water.
You feel cold. Your jacket can't breathe like it needs to. You're really quite miserable.
But the DWR chemistry we learned actually impacts just about every other aspect of a fabric. So your down jacket, for example, you never want your down to get wet. It's not a waterproof jacket, so use it as intended.
But it needs a durable water repellent coating just to have that water resistance as you're putting your shell on or as you're Getting back to. To comfort, safety, and protection.
What we learned, though, was that not only is the water repellency impacted, but things like seam slippage, which is the fabric's ability, these very light, technical woven fabrics to hold together when sewn together, that's impacted. Things like tear strength are impacted. You don't want your jacket to tear.
Colin True
00:13:02.828 - 00:13:14.840
It's kind of in everything, right? I mean, like, I've heard footwear makers talk about the molds they bring things out of. Like, it's all coated with pfas.
I mean, it's kind of just this universally applied set of chemicals in so many different applications.
Matt Dwyer
00:13:15.000 - 00:13:54.026
Exactly. So I think it's really easy to think about performance.
And maybe we talked about performance back then, but really what we meant and what we centered around was quality.
So the idea that we make a chemical change to get out of this nasty chemistry set and then shorten the useful life of the jacket, that's a non starter for us. You know, our down sweater, for example, is one of our top styles.
The idea that we switched the chemistry and now have down falling out of all the seams and the seams coming apart for a product that important, like, that's just. That's the stuff of nightmares. So, yeah, long way of saying, I think it's really easy to think about the wr.
The water repellency, but you have to look at the full package and what the product needs to do.
Colin True
00:13:54.178 - 00:14:35.218
Okay, so if you're looking at it as like C8, we're trying to solve for that. You go to C6, find out that's bad too. Where along the journey do you discover some of the things you're talking about? Right.
Because it's an interesting point about the water repellency, which is. I mean, I have it in our outline too, and I still want to ask you a couple of questions about it.
But, like, that is definitely worth, like, the laser focus goes on this, right? Is it's like, you know, just make it. If it's a little less water repellent, but it's better for the environment. Like, isn't that.
Isn't that a worthy exchange? So hearing you say, like, actually it's impacting the product line on so many different levels here. There's a lot to solve for.
So take us through that journey. If you go to the eight, the six, oh, my God, it's all bad. We all of our solutions are leading to a inferior product line.
How does that journey play out?
Matt Dwyer
00:14:35.354 - 00:17:00.250
So for us, we're going to throw around a Couple of acronyms C8 is the long chain fluorocarbons that were used for decades and decades to impart water repellency, stain resistance, all the different things that it's used for as a functional chemistry. C6 is a fluorinated chemistry like C8. It just has two fewer carbon atoms, which is why one's called C8, one's called C6.
As a result, imagine kind of one very long chain with the force field around it, and then you make that chain shorter, the force field gets smaller, and it's not as effective. I also use an analogy of imagine we're trying to take a building down. C8 is dynamite in the foundation. You press the button, it just works.
The building comes down every time. C6 is like the wrecking ball. You kind of got to whack it a few times. Building still comes down at the end.
And these new sets of chemistries are more like an artist's hammer and chisel, where you place it just right, you hit it just right, maybe hit it twice, and then eventually the building comes down as well. So that's kind of how I explain it to my friends, should we get on such nerdy subjects?
So when we talk about quality and performance, especially with water repellency, what we realized pretty early on, when we started getting the data, doing the math, is that when we transitioned from C8 to C6, both these PFAs chemistries, we actually took a pretty big hit in water repellency. And at the time, we didn't quite clock that. We weren't as sophisticated with our lab and our testing and data as we are today.
But that was kind of one of the insights that came out. Then we said, okay, in 2015, we notified our suppliers, hey, look, we don't want to develop with fluorocarbons anymore. What can you give us?
Went to all the big mills, our best partners, all the chemistry companies, invested in startups who were doing this work. And the first sample we got was a fabric that's actually our number one fabric by volume. It's a liner, it goes into everything.
And our mill was like, don't worry about it. We put the chemistry on there. You're going to be stoked.
So when you do fabric development, you get a header card, which is a piece of cardboard about the size of a sheet of paper. And the fabric is stapled to the sheet of paper. We went to pull it off because that's what you do, and the fabric ripped in half.
And I'm not a strong guy. I'm a cyclist. Like My upper body is not that robust.
But this thing ripped right in half, you know, and that's when we said it's not just the water repellency we're going after. We need to look at the entire fabric spec and do all the development work behind it to get there.
Colin True
00:17:01.090 - 00:17:34.260
So take me back to then, like, not to comparison. I don't want to make this a brand versus brand thing, but just sort of, again, like that 2008 Fialraven saying, hey, we're going to address this.
And I know that it didn't get fully addressed, but it just. At the same time they're sort of able to say we've removed almost all of this from our product line.
Is that a complexity in products, that difference between what they make and what you guys make? Like, what is sort of. Or was there a little greenwashy in what they're doing?
You know, I mean, like, why is it like you're still kind of fighting this fight getting into the late 2018s and they're sort of like declaring victory kind of earlier in the decade?
Matt Dwyer
00:17:34.600 - 00:18:51.502
Yeah, I think it's a couple things, some of which you hit on.
So relative size of our product line, product complexity, different end uses, different customer sets, in some cases, different sizes of our brand, probably by orders of magnitude. I haven't really checked what Valraven's up to these days. I will say though, that like, we.
The Patagonia that we are today is not the one, Colin, that maybe you knew in the Polartech days in that when we see other folks doing great work, we really want to celebrate it.
Not because of anything related to ego or mission or anything like that, but because Yvon Chouinard, our founder, and he's said this to me to correct me a number of times, has instilled in us that Patagonia could set all the. All the loftiest goals in the world and achieve them all, and we could achieve nothing at the same time. Right.
That we're only going to solve these big, complicated systemic problems through the agency of others.
Which is why when folks want to stick their neck out like we're stoked, what we saw in Europe over the last few weeks with the wholesale watering down of what was going to be the most important transparency legislation for sustainability ever, it was going to make a difference. That's the wrong way to go. Right.
So these days, for brands to be speaking out is a rare thing, but for brands to back up their words with actions is an even rarer thing.
Colin True
00:18:51.606 - 00:18:56.090
Can you get a Little deeper on this. So what was the legislation in Europe in the past couple of weeks?
Matt Dwyer
00:18:56.400 - 00:19:01.464
If you want to nerd, not a lawyer, but I can give you a little bit about this.
Colin True
00:19:01.552 - 00:19:02.360
It impacts your job.
Matt Dwyer
00:19:02.400 - 00:20:11.948
So I'm sure you know this is not legal advice. I'm making somebody happy in headquarters right now.
So really it was since the beginning of time, there basically have been no rules around the things that brands are allowed to say about sustainability or responsibility or whatever greenwashy word you want to use past then. So brands basically had full license to say whatever the heck they felt like and not really feel any pressure to back it up.
What this set of legislation was intended to do was to really level this playing field and set the table stakes for what disclosure looks like. First around greenhouse gas, which the only way to do that is first to measure it and actually know where your stuff comes from.
Even just those would have been two really important outcomes.
And then to talk about if you're going to call it recycled, how do you know you're going to have to prove that to me before you can make that claim and any number of disclosures in between. So it's like the first thing you can do with a problem is shine the spotlight in the dark place. Right?
Start flipping rocks and when you find something you don't like, you can't flip the rock back over. So of course disappointed.
Colin True
00:20:12.044 - 00:20:17.942
Our current presidential administration would disagree with you there. But you know, we probably have some.
Matt Dwyer
00:20:17.966 - 00:21:01.700
Thoughts around that for another time. But anyway, kind of long way of saying I think the great work starts when we all start in the same place.
And the New York Fashion act, which hopefully will gain some steam this year, the California Climate Disclosure act, the California actions around pfas like that is us using legislation the right way. Where 10 years ago when we were having the beginnings of the PFAS conversation, we thought legislation would happen at some point.
Like all the crystal ball signals were there if I look into like my scary chemical crystal ball. But we didn't see the action happening and we figured we know enough, we know this is a problem, let's go do the work.
So whenever it happens, we're reasonably prepared.
Colin True
00:21:02.600 - 00:22:20.664
And I look, I fully admit, like kind of got it kind of leads into a little bit of the video that you were in that kind of led to me to want to have this conversation with you. I admit I'm a little cynical on this given my background. Right.
And what I know and don't know and going through this process, you know, even the New York Fashion act, you know, had.
Ken Pucker was one of the first guests I ever had on this podcast and he talked about how, I'm assuming it was Patagonia, but there was, you know, one outdoor industry brand supporting that. Right. It just kind of just shows where people like, no, the value is on the much money they're going to make.
And even the video itself, to a point where, like, without this context, and this is leading to a question of, you know, this video coming out again, being very Patagonia centric. And it's a Patagonia video, I understand it.
But also it's like coming out around the time that, like, hey, now we have to abide by this rule in California. It's a little like, what's going on, guys? Other people seem to have been leading before you were right.
So that's also why, why you're here to kind of talk about this. And I guess when you, when I do kind of look at all these things combined, why not be a little more vocal?
I mean, and look, this might just be some of the burden on Patagonia.
No matter what, how much good you guys do, you're going to be criticized because you're the biggest one and the loudest one in the room at the same time. I would think on this topic specifically, man, like, shout from here. Here's what we are doing. And yet you mentioned the, the blog, the post in 2015.
But this just feels like as this gains momentum, would have been really great to kind of hear from you guys more regularly on it.
Matt Dwyer
00:22:20.832 - 00:23:38.938
Yeah, totally. And I really appreciate the prompt because this is really central to the work that I get to do.
And before I actually answer your question, I'll say you're exactly right in that we, you know, Patagonia, the first thing I'm going to come to you is from a point of humility, right? We have 50 plus years of trying to do the right thing. We get a lot right, but we also get a lot wrong and don't have it all figured out.
And that really influences how we interact with these other brands trying to succeed through the agency of others. And frankly, like, if you're coming to our ivory tower with your pitchforks to skewer us, you're going to find we're not home.
And we moved out a long time ago. Right? Like, we're out doing the work. And that is what my job is.
So to actually address your question, you know, what we started to do when we laid out this strategy was one, appraise our exposure to PFAS in our product line.
And when we went and did the math, which back then was cleaning up our PLM system, connecting things, data entry, all of that, we realized that for a brand that has over a thousand styles in any one season, more than 50% of them contained a material with PFAS in it that we knew at the time.
So that on its own was complicated because you can't just kind of mess with the style, replace a fabric without all the downstream consequences in merchandising, all those different things.
Colin True
00:23:38.994 - 00:23:39.562
Yeah.
Matt Dwyer
00:23:39.706 - 00:24:41.786
Two, the raw material impact of that, and I was leading raw material development at the time, was hundreds and hundreds of individual raw materials from across the world. So we weren't talking about one style or a handful of RMS raw materials.
We were talking about just about everything that we did that reflected the shape of our product line and needing water repellency and needing waterproofness and needing fast dry, all those different reasons you use it.
And along the way we actually some of the easiest conversions were ones where we found that we were using a material with DWR and the product didn't need it.
So our black hole, for example, the liner on the inside, not the outside with the shiny recycled TPU coating, but the liner on the inside had a DWR on it. We were like, doesn't need it, Problem solved, that one's done. But for the rest of them, it was dw.
There's no one chemical solution to a problem this complex. And in the beginning it was find me the magic bullet, Find me the one chemistry to replace pfas.
Colin True
00:24:41.898 - 00:24:42.874
Right, Right.
Matt Dwyer
00:24:43.042 - 00:26:24.700
Even just because in different regions of manufacturer there are different suppliers, let alone different products, need different product attributes and different performance features, really kind of complicated it right out of the gate. So along the way we invested in Beyond Surface technologies very early.
They're an amazing Swiss chemical company who's who really is at the forefront of responsible chemistry.
We partnered with companies like HiQ, another amazing Swiss textile chemistry company, really in the spirit of seeing what the universe had out there, both in startup phase and people doing plasma and supercritical CO2, but also the big chemistry companies who every six months come to us with a brand new thing. We had to engage all of them. And really back to something I said earlier.
The idea that we solve this problem over here and cause cause adverse consequences on the other side of things, that is part of the complexity and kind of what took so long. So I get asked a lot. Hey, you know, we knew for a while that PFAS was bad. What are you Doing to ensure that the new stuff's not just as bad.
And that's working with the chemist, the toxicologist, all those other things that nobody will ever see the process, you know. But that's the hard work I think too. We went through this work.
That number one raw material that I talked to you about that ripped in half was actually the first raw material that we transitioned in spring of 2019. Didn't say a thing about it, made no mention of it anywhere ever.
But we all, you know, had a secret party back here in our building because we had volume, we had performance and our mill was able to meet our quality specs. And really those were the things that we were looking for in the transition.
Colin True
00:26:24.830 - 00:27:55.478
I think that's what I have. Don't make the party secret. Right.
I think one thing I've kind of, I kind of came to some conclusions I think during my time at Polartech and clearly even more than now since having this podcast of the collaboration, the lack of collaboration at times I find frustrating with, especially among the bigger brands. Right. And you think about even on the secondhand issue and like last fall, Dave and I, we even caught some flack for it.
We were talking a lot about, you know, like everybody has like their own second hand shop now.
It's like, yeah, well why about everybody invest in gear trade like create a retailer where like this could be really meaningful versus we're going to have our own thing, we're going to hire staff to management, we're going to get six things back. So we're just going to make some extra closeouts to throw in there. We're creating our own Sierra model in a way.
And it's like, how about the industry gather together to kind of figure out secondhand. I mean same thing kind of here.
Like even I would, I would have loved to like, hey, we guys, we cracked this one thing like that be worthy of celebration. And I, look, I understand you're damned if you do, damned if you don't totally. And I get that.
But I would like to see the industry and maybe the opportunities coming up here as we do face, you know, threats to public lands and things like that. We're going to be given more opportunities to kind of collaborate.
But I think this is one too where I think we could, I mean the, the, the greenwashing that takes place, I mean I think about even, you know, you just, you see it on common threads, right about I saw someone actually accusing Fial Raven of withholding PFAS secrets from the rest of the industry. It's like, no, I don't think that was the case.
I'm sure they would have taken anybody's phone call if they wanted to, you know, but it's just, it's funny how these sort of, you know, stories get concocted. And so the more I feel like, you know, attention we can bring to it, it's always gonna be a better thing.
Matt Dwyer
00:27:55.614 - 00:29:05.708
Yeah, absolutely.
And I think the one thing that we do as well as making great, high quality product is storytelling, you know, and what you've certainly seen from us in this last six months with our Duty of care campaign, which was triggered by the learning that, hey, as we move away from these PFAS chemistries, you're gonna lose oil repellency, which is why you have stain resistance. So both for your body oils, your bug repellent, your sunscreen, and people at the ski resort. Yeah, dude. And. And actually, that's not a new thing.
Like, even back when I was at Gore, we wrestled with the fact that people thought their pro shell was a Ferrari and they should only take it out on track day and never change the oil. And it's like, no, no, actually, your product, it works the best when it's clean and happy, so keep it clean and happy. So.
So that was really, you know, when it comes to the video that we did, it was like, one, we just did a hell of a lot of work. Let us share the journey with people who are interested hopefully in plain language, so they can, they can enjoy it and learn something.
But two, let's reinforce the importance of care, because it's not that all of a sudden care is a thing. It's always been a thing, but now more than ever, people need to take care of their stuff.
Colin True
00:29:05.884 - 00:29:17.470
Right? Mostly I think I was mad because you're the only guy in that video I recognized. It just kind of showed how long it's been since I'm getting old.
Now I'm like, I don't know any of these people. I used to know that entire time. Team, like person. I used to text them.
Matt Dwyer
00:29:17.510 - 00:30:37.504
You know, that's funny. I was actually. What I loved about when you reached out to me was something that I do from time to time, just randomly triggered by God knows what is.
I sort my emails from oldest to newest and I start reading at the top.
So one, it's like a reminder of how were we thinking back then before we kind of grew up around data, got organized around materials, set a real set of goals, and started making progress. And back then, we were really in shiny object Hunting mode.
What is the synthetic that'll behave like down or the down that'll behave like a synthetic? What is the one chemistry to rule them all to get us away from God knows what.
And really it's that complicated problems oftentimes or more often than not will require complicated solutions, which is innovation and engineering and problem solving. So I was flipping through my emails and I was like, colin, Polartech pfc. And just so you guys know, Polartech's an amazing supplier.
They are R1 tons of amazing products with them under Milliken's ownership of course. And I found the original email chain of us talking about the Knife Ridge fabric at the time. Amazing Polartech Power Shield product.
And we were demanding 2014, 13 something. It was at the end of 14 and we were, we were asking for trials with PFC free at the time, DWR. So it's like, man, you know, all.
Colin True
00:30:37.512 - 00:30:46.684
Right, you brought the biggest rock you could throw. I have no recollection of that conversation. And I was involved with it giving you guys shit for it. I was like involved. Amazing.
Matt Dwyer
00:30:46.732 - 00:31:33.392
I was like, man, you know, sometimes, sometimes it's easy just to not take time to reflect. One to think about when you got it right but also to think about the things you got wrong, how you reacted.
Did you zigzag actually have the humble moment? But also it's like, man, what conversations were we having back then? How were we doing it and with whom?
Because even you know, Polartech, world class performance nets provider, we weren't doing much with you all. No, no. That needed DWR so that one instance.
But our other suppliers, we were just like, hey fellas, this ain't going to work for much longer so we need everything you got on this problem.
And I guess a good analogy would be like Colin at Polartech would have had no idea that we were building a regenerative organic cotton supply chain in India. Of course. Because that's not our business.
Colin True
00:31:33.496 - 00:31:50.832
That's not of our business. We're yeah. Synthetic nits over here. No. And probably that the Knife Ridge, which I still have mine by the way.
And it's my favorite shell and I'll have it forever. Yep. But at the same time, I don't think that thing died because of pfas.
It was mostly because it was powered SHIELD Pro and it was really hard to make it. We probably couldn't get it to you.
Matt Dwyer
00:31:50.856 - 00:31:54.620
On time, but we still reference that product.
Colin True
00:31:55.320 - 00:32:09.478
So last thing on the fabric side.
So I know there's some, there's a lot of complexities in terms of like how these fabrics are developed and how their functions are, when you're looking at the DWR versus the laminate, how did you solve for problems within those specific kind of the challenges that both of those kind of bring to the table?
Matt Dwyer
00:32:09.664 - 00:35:24.804
Yeah, so we had exposure to PFAS chemistries in our product line, both in single layer fabrics, things that needed water repellency, your down jacket, your board shorts, but also in technical shells, which are the waterproof materials.
And the analogy I use for describing a waterproof material is like a cheese sandwich where you have the outer piece of bread, which is the face textile that gets a durable water repellent. You have the cheese in the middle, that's the waterproof membrane.
And then oftentimes you have an inner liner, which is that other piece of bread in the sandwich.
And really it's both the cheese in the middle, that waterproof barrier, but also that that first line of defense, the durable water resistance on the outside that we had to solve for. And the answer is really that we had to do both in parallel.
And one was way, way harder than the other, if only because of the product complexity of a three layer laminate, Something like waders that need to have full submersion or a technical Gore Tex pro shell that's going to be in the gnarliest, scariest, coldest, we environments and need to keep the person, the athlete, safe, dry and somewhat happy and comfortable. So really for us, we had these two buckets of products just like I just described. So we call them non critical performance.
And that's just needs to stay reasonably dry, just needs to dry out quickly. That's the down sweater, that's your board shorts.
And then we had the critical bucket, which was the torrent shell, the Gore Tex materials, the waders, the M10, you know, all of these really high performance alpine waterproof shells.
And if, if I ever get a chance to show you the graph, you'll see we started with one raw material in spring of 2019, and all of a sudden we had 4% without PFAS on our graph. Like sick. This is awesome. And then you see it march up kind of in an exponential curve.
But the first couple years were us converting the easier things and that is those single layer fabrics, the down proofs and things like that. And then the things that were left at the very, very end were the pro shells, the waders, the highest test materials.
So it wasn't just testing in the lab, it wasn't just working with our suppliers. The DWR chemistry impacts how Things stick together.
So switching the durable water repellent and getting delamination where the thing's falling apart, the sandwich is falling apart in your lap, not acceptable. But really it was that we needed our ambassadors engaged to do the field testing.
So some of the first materials that we put out with the original made without PFAS chemicals.
We basically had a riot on our hands from people like Kelly Cordes, who basically has a PhD in sport, knows product and materials better than I do, and give it to me in real life. And he was like, dude, this is the worst thing you could do for the brand. I encourage you to stop right now. We're like, okay, challenge accepted.
So really, them being in Scotland in the wintertime in South America, the Patagonia region, doing their climbing, that. That was the ultimate test for those products. So it wasn't just that we did them last, they actually took just as long.
But because it was such a complex problem, because performance was a must not fail, we really decided to take our time, I think, too. Colin, earlier you. You asked me about kind of the. The timing of us being finished with the regulation coming in play.
Colin True
00:35:24.892 - 00:35:25.092
Right.
Matt Dwyer
00:35:25.116 - 00:35:31.230
And actually our original goal was to be done fall of 2021. Kind of a lot happens right around then.
Colin True
00:35:31.610 - 00:35:33.218
I don't remember anything.
Matt Dwyer
00:35:33.314 - 00:35:36.162
We had a couple externalities that impacted our timeline.
Colin True
00:35:36.306 - 00:35:37.042
Yeah, right.
Matt Dwyer
00:35:37.146 - 00:36:00.462
But also, just a quick story. We were ready to do our nanopuff recycled polyester fabric. High performer from a sales perspective. Tons and millions and millions of yards of fabric.
We had done the testing, we had done the development. We nominated the chemistry. We were feeling pretty great. And our supplier was like, we're not going to do that for you right now. They told us no.
And we're like, they couldn't fulfill it.
Colin True
00:36:00.486 - 00:36:02.670
Like, it was more of a. Like a fulfillment.
Matt Dwyer
00:36:02.830 - 00:36:26.430
Like, we've been working on this. You've been doing this work with us. Like, what the heck?
And they were like, we a program of this magnitude at Patagonia's quality standards, we don't think we can do that just yet. We need another year. So, you know, you could very easily say, oh, it was somebody like me not making the decision.
But in many cases it's like, no, you can't just make it once. You got to make it a million times over.
Colin True
00:36:26.810 - 00:36:32.270
I wasn't expecting that to be the reason, because we never would have said that at Polartech. No comment.
Matt Dwyer
00:36:33.370 - 00:37:01.408
And even just like on the stain repellency thing, you talk about sunscreen and body oils and stuff, but sewing machine oil is A big thing when you're cutting and sewing technical products. So some of the first trials we did at the finished goods factory, we had these blotches showing up and we're like, guys, with what's going on.
The fabric looked great coming in and it was because there was happened to be sewing machine oil on the table. So you know, it really is every aspect of raw material product creation all the way through products that we had to address.
Colin True
00:37:01.544 - 00:37:54.376
Yeah, I think it's really interesting to understand and I think it's important context because I think you can go deep on this subject and learn a lot about it, but just understanding the depth with which how permeated PFAS chemicals were in the entire product line. Right. Because I do think you go back to that.
You know, I had an outline, I don't even really need to address it anymore about, you know, that like kind of a bit of hiding behind performance. Like oh, you know, the consumers are demanding a certain level of performance and if it's just about dwr, I think that's a valid criticism.
It's like, come on, you know, you, you segment your line then like have a top of the pyramid line versus an everyday line, that kind of thing.
But to hear you say like you can't even put the garment together because the solution for it is like, is so it's subpar compared to what it was before. So now it's like, well, do you want to put out a gross, you know, PFAS Laden, you know, garment in the world or one that's just going to fail?
Boy, those are good options. So. Yeah, right. It's incredible. It's a, it's an interesting story. Interesting context for sure.
Matt Dwyer
00:37:54.528 - 00:38:33.442
Yeah, I think too, just before we move on from that, you know, it's easy to think about performance, but we're thinking actually about quality.
And if only because most of our customers come to us because we make a high quality product, but also we guarantee the product for its lifetime through our guarantee we'll repair it if you send it back, we'll resell it if we get a chance. Like we have a whole lot of responsibility for that product once it leaves our hands.
Not to mention that 90% of our overall footprint in any year is from raw materials. So to make a decision that shortens that dent in the planet, that useful life is just not an acceptable outcome for us.
Colin True
00:38:33.546 - 00:38:49.414
Right. Well, that's all I got. I think.
You know, the other thing I want to ask you is, you know, which do you, do you prefer your patagonia's current tagline or the old tagline, because I miss the old tagline. I just want to say that I miss the build the best product tagline. I really don't like the we're in business, save the home planet tagline.
I don't know if you had a.
Matt Dwyer
00:38:49.422 - 00:40:21.258
Preference or if you're allowed to say I love this. And I actually, through the virtue of the work that I get to do, I get to sit in a lot of interesting conversations like this one.
So in 2018, I was getting ready to talk about innovation and PFAs and microplastics and shit at a board meeting and I saw on the agenda mission statement. I was like, huh, that sounds interesting. Don't know what that's about. They didn't ask me anything cool.
So I was able to be a fly on the wall for that conversation.
While our old mission statement, which is build the best product, cause no unnecessary harm, use business to inspire solutions to the environmental crisis was very meaningful, the belief was that it was 27 years old. Other folks had started to model it and it was feeling a little stale.
So to replace it one with something snackier, of course, like, let me check my tattoo. But also something that really made it laser clear what we were here to do.
Setting up the ownership transition, setting up what really our role is here is how we ended up there.
And I think along the way, in the conversation, for the sake of oversharing with you, Colin and Dave, there were conversations like, it started as save the planet, and then it was save whose planet? And then, no, fuck Mars. We want to save our planet kind of landing there.
But I think in real life, yeah, in real life, the answer is not that the other things aren't important anymore, like the foundation is quality, performance, responsibility. But we have this other thing we got to do in using our business to save the planet.
Colin True
00:40:21.354 - 00:41:23.210
I appreciate the context. I still like the old one better. I got one last question for you. I kind of want to put my fab.
My old fabric hat back on because the thing that it was always. Honestly, it's frustrating, but it was interesting and frustrating at times, right?
Because working for a mill, a fabric mill, and seeing the capabilities that we had to create really new and interesting and meaningful things that usually weren't going to go anywhere because most of the brands who we'd want to sell them to wouldn't pay for them. And so. But.
But at the same time, there was also some real pie in the sky stuff that, like, you just knew wasn't probably ever Going to make it like for probably what, a solid three to five years. It was like, you know, spider silk is going to save us, right? And it was just like, how are we going to get the spider silk to work?
And, and it just at some point you kind of like, are we still talking about that? Because I don't think you're going to get there. So what is, what is in the pipeline?
What are some things, what are some technologies that you're maybe excited about?
That kind of, when you look ahead, it's sort of knowing the plastic problem and fleece and recycled, all the problems that we kind of typically deal with when it comes to textiles. What are you excited about?
Matt Dwyer
00:41:24.230 - 00:43:14.536
There's so many reasons to be excited.
I think looking at the textile to textile recycling space, all the different brilliant folks with novel technologies figuring out what to do with this pile that keeps growing and we keep leaving on this planet and helping us take responsibility for that. That's amazing work.
I get really, really excited about some of the novel super creative ways that smart, talented young folks are coming to us and saying, have you thought about solving this problem this way? And we're like, never thought of it like that. Let's have a conversation.
And that could be how do we use food waste or agriculture wastes to make the ingredients to make a high quality synthetic product? That could be the Boreo Netplus supply chain that we built really over the last 10 years.
Because that's ostensibly how long it takes to do anything meaningful.
To take the deadliest form of ocean pollution, which is derelict fishing gear, and turn it into this 10 denier Patagonia micropuff, which is one of the highest performing materials that we make. Like those kind of signals and proofs of life get me really excited.
And then I think looking at the past 10 years where we went from a relatively low percentage of recycled and preferred materials in our product line to darn near 100%. What happens next is going to be harder, more nuanced, take more time and energy, but be really, really fun.
And that's taking responsibility for the pollution we put into our supply chain, taking responsibility for the people, the hands that make our stuff. Apparel is still made with scissors, needles and thread and a pair of hands. And we need to take responsibility for that.
And then also pie in the sky like Colin. Failure is part of it. I get more shit wrong than I get right. And once you except that stuff becomes really fun.
So having license to explore, celebrating when, when things go off and they don't go so hot but you learn something is just part of the game. So there's just a lot of really good stuff coming.
Colin True
00:43:14.688 - 00:43:37.590
Glad to hear that. I mean, it just, it definitely, you know, I catch grief for it sometimes being a broken record on, you know, a lack of innovation.
But it definitely starting to feel like, man, we just got a lot of the same out there still. And it doesn't sound like. It doesn't seem like the cavalry's coming now.
I know Covid and everything else kind of derailed that to your point about what it did to your PFAS program. But it's good to hear that if you're excited. I know that everybody has reason to be excited, Colin.
Matt Dwyer
00:43:37.670 - 00:44:17.634
It's easy to get bummed out when you start thinking about the hard stuff, which is where we're at our best and we thrive. So I gotta find ways to be optimistic. But just kind of two parting thoughts for you.
One, our spring 2025 product line, which is what in stores today, is one of the first product lines that we developed back in person. So you're a product guy, you have to do this work in person, touching and feeling, putting 100 testing.
And we're really starting to see the fruits of that through our product line. It only gets better from here. And I think too, you know, Colin, you brand yourself as a cynic and cynics don't get much done.
So, like, I'd encourage you to be a skeptic. And part of that is asking the questions and seeking the facts. So I appreciate that we got to do a little bit of that today.
Colin True
00:44:17.722 - 00:44:22.370
I'm a part time cynic. There's a couple things I get real cynical about. For the most part. I'm an optimist.
Matt Dwyer
00:44:22.450 - 00:44:27.550
Let's be honest. Me too. My 21 year old self would never believe me, but me too.
Colin True
00:44:28.180 - 00:44:39.868
Well, yeah, we're both from, you know, southeastern Pennsylvania or that area anyway, so I guess the last question is make sure please at your head of comms gets the $1,000 check I sent to allow you to come on the podcast today. So I want to make sure that.
Matt Dwyer
00:44:40.004 - 00:44:41.760
I have a cheap date six pack.
Colin True
00:44:42.820 - 00:45:04.796
I think there was a little like leftover love from what? You know, me coming to Ventura a thousand times in my Polar Jack career. So. Well, hey, man, I appreciate you coming on and spending some time with us.
Want to have you back on again.
Love that Patagonia came on the pod to talk about this stuff and push back on some of the things that we said, but also kind of take a few lumps of your own. I really appreciate it and your open seat anytime you want to come back on the show. Matt, thank you so much.
Matt Dwyer
00:45:04.948 - 00:45:10.940
Happy to do it. The Philly in me says you ask me what I think and I'm going to tell you. So appreciate you all love it.
Colin True
00:45:11.060 - 00:45:12.012
Thanks, Matt.
Matt Dwyer
00:45:12.156 - 00:45:12.880
Cool.
Colin True
00:45:13.940 - 00:45:41.730
All right, that's the show for today.
Let us know what you thought about this and every episode of the Rock Fight by sending your emails to myrockfightmail.com the Rock Fight is a production of rock Fight. Lord. See our producer today. Producer David Carr said you didn't hear him but he was there. Art direction provided by Sarah Gensert. I'm Colin True.
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00:45:49.840 - 00:46:42.170
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