Today on the show Colin & Justin Housman talk about some of the stories making the rounds through the outdoor community.
First up is an article that summarizes recent studies looking at the value of cold plunges. Turns out, there's not a lot science to support the claims that sitting in cold water is good for you. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't sit in cold water if you get something out of it! (5:55)
Then the guys stop in at Housman's House to dig into a new feature that Justin wrote about some folks who weren't as bullish on the EXPLORE Act as most of us and really hammer home the issues that lie in the conservation vs recreation debate. (21:40)
Lastly for this weeks Parting Shot, Colin reads the piece he wrote for Rock Fight about Outside's recent layoffs and he and Justin talk about the role Outside now occupies in the outdoor media landscape. (37:22)
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Episode Transcript:
Open Container!
00:00:00.240 - 00:01:03.160
The outdoors is not a niche. It's way bigger than that. The outdoors is essential to our lives, essential to who we are as a species.
And as the world continues to get smaller, as new advances in technology push us to the limits of the planet, the outdoors is more important than ever. Open Container is here to explore this new idea of the outdoors.
We'll strive to uncover stories about creativity, adventure, conservation, politics, and the people who make the outdoor space so vibrant. The world is full of anxiety right now. Climate change, politics, cultural upheaval. But fear not, there are answers in the outdoors.
I'm Doug Schnitzpahn, and on this show, we will talk to people who are looking to nature to find the solutions we all need.
We will be having honest conversations about how the outdoors can change us, how it heals us, how we learn from it, and how we can build a better world from what we learn about being outdoors. So please join us. Open the container and find out what's inside. Let's get some.
Colin True
00:01:06.260 - 00:01:14.480
Open Container launches January 21st. Find and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Chris DeMakes
00:01:15.940 - 00:01:23.640
Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Colin True
00:01:24.580 - 00:01:37.864
Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows sometimes. Agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head.
I'm Colin True, and joining me today, you better believe he knows where Rumple was originally founded.
Colin True
00:01:37.912 - 00:01:39.416
It's Justin Hausman.
Justin Housman
00:01:39.608 - 00:01:55.060
Yeah, he does.
And I just want to say thank you to everyone who wrote in saying there was a lot of people, more people than you could possibly count, more people than you could imagine. Wrote in and said, you know what? Justin was right. Rumple was founded in San Francisco.
So I just want to thank each and every one of those lovely, beautiful people.
Colin True
00:01:55.610 - 00:01:58.290
You show me where these emails exist. I don't believe that's true.
Justin Housman
00:01:58.370 - 00:02:01.170
It might be true. Could be true.
Colin True
00:02:01.250 - 00:02:14.258
If you missed Monday's episode of the Rock Plate.
We ranked our top five gear brands and we talked about Rumple for a minute and Justin correctly corrected us all and said it was founded in San Francisco. And we all told him he was insane and he didn't make fun of me.
Justin Housman
00:02:14.314 - 00:02:17.618
This guy doesn't know he's talking about. Turns out I was right.
Colin True
00:02:17.754 - 00:02:18.290
He was right.
Justin Housman
00:02:18.330 - 00:02:25.630
Thank you. Israel, I think, is the smartest guy. Somebody. Somebody got a hold of me on LinkedIn to say, you are 100% right, my friend.
Colin True
00:02:25.930 - 00:02:31.762
Turns out that guy was part of your wedding. Just like he's just like you're like dude, send me a note, tell me.
Justin Housman
00:02:31.786 - 00:02:37.190
I was right about this. It does feel good, though. It feels good. I'm that petty sometimes, I guess.
Colin True
00:02:38.090 - 00:03:00.014
Today Justin and I are going to be talking about the science behind cold water plunges as well as making a stop into Houseman's house for some talk about public lands before wrapping things up with our parting shots, which.
Which you should definitely stick around for because I'm going to use this parting shot to read something I wrote for our about the layoffs that just hit Outside Incorporated last week. Did you hear the. The Housman's House little theme song?
Justin Housman
00:03:00.142 - 00:03:01.230
I sure did. Yeah.
Colin True
00:03:01.230 - 00:03:01.598
It was so.
Justin Housman
00:03:01.654 - 00:03:04.610
It's so nice. It makes me want to sit down and watch some 90s sitcoms.
Colin True
00:03:05.270 - 00:03:09.246
That's. That's the goal. I know that's what we're going for. Producer Dave that's getting it done over there.
Justin Housman
00:03:09.318 - 00:03:11.530
Dave wish he was here with us right now.
Colin True
00:03:11.990 - 00:03:57.570
Before we get to any of that, we have some housekeeping and programming reminders.
If you missed Monday's episode, which we just talked about, you missed Justin, me, producer Dave and Owen Cumberford ranking the top five outdoor gear brands that we have going today in 2025 super fun episode of the Rock Fight. Be sure to check that out. That comes off the heels of our top five outdoor footwear brands.
That means next up is top five accessory brands that'll be coming down the road. Also, be sure to come back this Friday to hear my conversation with Tersys Solutions.
Peter Wickham, Tersys Solutions is a company that is growing to grow and serve the outdoor secondhand market. You won't want to miss that episode.
Speaking of things like episodes and newsletters and all the other stuff we have going on at Rock Fight, Justin, what do you have for our, for our good listeners about some of those things?
Justin Housman
00:03:57.610 - 00:04:11.074
I have a very important question for our listeners. Listeners, can you come over here with me for a sec? Just, everybody just kind of gather around over here. Come over here. Okay, bring it in, everyone.
Bring it in. Are you subscribed to the Rock Fights newsletter, everyone?
Colin True
00:04:11.242 - 00:04:12.610
No. No, no, no, no.
Justin Housman
00:04:12.650 - 00:04:22.258
Okay, well, here's the deal. You have time still to go over there and click on subscribe to get today's edition because we haven't finished it yet, right, Colin?
Colin True
00:04:22.434 - 00:04:24.270
Well, yeah, but they're not going to hear this.
Justin Housman
00:04:24.650 - 00:04:27.250
I am so bad at this temporal understanding.
Colin True
00:04:27.330 - 00:04:32.162
It's in the script. You know, it's fine anyway. But you still have time for next week. You have time to get it for next week's edition.
Justin Housman
00:04:32.226 - 00:04:45.138
That's right. So that idiotic babble aside, you should subscribe to the Rockfight newsletter because you're going to get right there on your email client.
Colin True
00:04:45.314 - 00:04:47.202
Client. Is that so? I think that's what we said.
Justin Housman
00:04:47.386 - 00:04:57.534
Email client of choice Some original content from Occasionally Me always from Colin Producer Dave Chimes in. Owen Comerford writes some stuff for. Well, does he?
Colin True
00:04:57.702 - 00:04:58.606
I don't know if he has yet.
Justin Housman
00:04:58.678 - 00:05:53.060
But he will Schnitz. He will Doug Schnitzbahn, Wes Allen, Shantae Shantay. All kinds of wonderful folks are contributing to the newsletter, so you don't want to miss that.
There are dwindling places for you to get fun outdoor content these days. That's a little bit of a foreshadowing to Colin's parting shot. So you're gonna want to get it where you can. And why not get it from the rock fight?
Because we're doing it better than anybody else, quite frankly. What else am I supposed to tell them? Oh yeah. So head to Rockfight Co Click right there on Little Pop up that pops up.
This is Join the mailing list and you are good to go.
Also, if you are new or even if you've listened to us from day one and you have for some reason forgot to follow and subscribe and give us a five star rating whether you're new, whether you're old, please go ahead and do that right now. Just take a second or after the pod is over, whatever makes the most sense for you in your in your life.
We don't want to tell you how to live, but we do want to tell you to like subscribe and 5 star rating us.
Colin True
00:05:53.680 - 00:06:58.430
On that note, our top story today is presented by your hub For Ultralight Gear Garage Grown gear, head to garagegrowngear.com check them out.
Our story today is about cold water plunges because according to an article on newatlas.com, researchers have taken a closer look at the effectiveness of cold water immersion to try and determine if there's truly any scientific truth to the claims that sitting in an ice bath or taking a cold shower can have a positive, positive effect on your health. They looked at 11 different studies that have come out over the past decade or so and it was a pretty long article.
The summation of it really is that researchers found little evidence that there are long term benefits to be found. There were some short term benefits for specific individuals or specific purposes, but largely it looks like it's not a lot of upside.
And I wanted to talk about this today with you, Justin, because you see people in the outdoor space talk about cold plunges a lot, whether it's in a river or in a tub or whatever. And I understand that there are those on an individual level that love it and find their own benefit from it, but it's really.
It's become a marketed thing now. There are products to buy. There are articles that are written that are like, very subjective, but I've written them.
Justin Housman
00:06:59.450 - 00:07:00.754
I've written some of them.
Colin True
00:07:00.922 - 00:07:10.658
I'm excited to hear what you have to say about this because there's mounting evidence that it could be misleading at best. So tell me about what you've written about cold plunges. What do you think about this?
Justin Housman
00:07:10.794 - 00:07:27.954
I've always been a little dubious about the health benefits just because it feels like if you dig deep enough into anything, there's potential health benefits. And I wrote quite a bit when Wim Hof, the Norwegian. Is he Norwegian? When he first started.
Colin True
00:07:28.042 - 00:07:28.674
I'll fact check.
Justin Housman
00:07:28.722 - 00:08:14.606
Yeah. When he first started making a name for himself as a cold plunge guy. Dutch. Dutch. Okay. I think at AJ we did.
I was writing for Red Bull at the time, so I wrote some stuff for Red Bull about it. I covered him at Surfer magazine. Like, Kelly got really into that.
I think Kelly Slater and Wim off her buds and man, it really took off in the surf world. I'm sure it didn't rest the action sports world, but somehow it had like a. I. I mean, honestly, like in a.
In a action sports environment where people aren't necessarily big into training, something about this like really took off. And I don't know if it's just because it was like, you're in water, you know, I don't know.
It's like a more visceral sort of thing than going to the gym. I have no idea why, but man, it really took off. And I remember the upsides were supposed to be something to do with like developing brown fat.
Is that I didn't read this new Atlas article. Does it talk about that?
Colin True
00:08:14.758 - 00:08:21.342
I don't recall saying that in that article, but I remember this being a thing like the different types of fat and this is the good fat versus the white fat and all that kind.
Justin Housman
00:08:21.366 - 00:08:32.330
Of like this one is like hard. I think it's like hard to develop and it has something to do with.
It's like one of those, like good cholesterol, bad cholesterols, where the brown fat is actually like really good for you. And Wim Hof was claiming that improved this.
Colin True
00:08:32.710 - 00:08:35.278
That could, the brown fat thing could Be true. I don't know.
Justin Housman
00:08:35.414 - 00:09:55.640
I mean, I like, it kind of strike.
Started to strike me as sort of the same way that some of the grandiose claims like chiropractors will make would sound, you know, like, hey, adjusting your back feels terrific. Like, I get that. Like, I've gone to a chiropractor, but, like, you know, they'd be telling me how it's going to cure my asthma and I'd be like, what?
Like, for real, you know. So, like, it started to feel a little bit like that to me. Now, having said that, I don't care, you know, like.
Like it feels good to go from hot to cold to cold to hot. That's awesome. There's a reason that like Finnish baths and Turkish baths and Russian baths, all, whatever, all exist.
Like, it feels amazing to be freezing cold and then not anymore. I mean, that's. That's a wonderful feeling. I have no doubt that it, like, slows inflammation. I have no doubt that it can do all these awesome things.
And I would, you know, I would try. Like, I kind of enjoy that sort of experience, you know, myself.
You know, I served freezing cold water a couple days ago and purposely wore a thinner suit than I normally would because I thought it might be kind of cool to just get real cold and then get real warm again. I mean, it feels really nice. So I get that. I mean, it's therapeutic in some way, but I'm not surprised to hear that there's. That the health.
Potential health benefits are exaggerated. I'm also not surprised to hear that, like, you know, marketers ran with this and like, let's sell people cold plunge tubs.
I mean, like, there was a period where you couldn't buy one of those metal cowboy tubs around here because everybody was buying them for like backyard cold plunge tubs.
Colin True
00:09:55.720 - 00:11:05.040
I guess that's kind of where I start shaking my head where it's just like everything has to become commoditized and like, and marketed and become a thing versus, like, to your point, like, you see, I think it was actually Brendan Leonard's wife wrote an article, was it for AJ Actually, where she was talking about cold plunges and rivers or something. It was Mountain Gazette. It was. It was a. One of the big print mags going right now and.
But kind of like you talk about you going surfing in cold water and I love going. That's one of the benefits I feel like of surfing in the winter too. It's like getting in the ocean and that cold water, that's invigorating.
It's totally invigorating.
And I get the whole, you know, that there's the, you know, the Scandinavian thing of like, you know, getting in, you know, the, the saunas, and then you go out where it's cold. You're with the back and forth. There is absolutely a vibe that comes with that.
But, you know, I looked it up, you know, in 2023, cold plunge tub sales that are at $123 million in sales, and that' projected to go to $165 million by 2030. And I'm like, look, if it's your thing and it's your hobby, I guess it's cool that you have a way to, like, set that up at home.
I just sort of, you know, it just becomes. It just feels kind of gross after a while when you're like. Because the claims that are being made around it.
If it was just, hey, man, this makes you feel real good.
Justin Housman
00:11:05.080 - 00:11:10.558
Well, do you get a cold plunge to buy one? I mean, can't you just put. Can you just put like, ice cubes into a bathtub?
Colin True
00:11:10.744 - 00:11:11.666
That's what I wanted.
Justin Housman
00:11:11.698 - 00:11:16.034
I mean, I'm not saying that would be easy, but, like, I don't see. I don't know. I suppose.
Colin True
00:11:16.082 - 00:11:17.570
Or just turn the cold faucet on.
Justin Housman
00:11:17.610 - 00:11:30.018
Take a cold shower. I do remember writing about this, and it was like there was. Of course, you know, according to the proponents, there's like a.
The colder the water, the better. So, like, cold showers kind of work, but it doesn't quite do the same thing. So.
Colin True
00:11:30.074 - 00:11:30.290
Sure.
Justin Housman
00:11:30.330 - 00:11:41.344
Okay, sure. And, you know, I don't know, it's something about.
I think also I'd have a much harder time just taking a cold shower than I would for some reason, sitting my entire body in a. In a. In ice water because that's all at once. The cold shower thing.
Colin True
00:11:41.352 - 00:11:42.976
I would feel like I agree with you 100%.
Justin Housman
00:11:43.048 - 00:11:43.860
How colder?
Colin True
00:11:44.200 - 00:11:47.980
Oh, yeah. When you're like. When you're going to get in the shower and it's not hot yet, and it's like.
Justin Housman
00:11:48.280 - 00:11:52.768
I mean, no, I'm not. Have you ever done a cold plunge? No, I never have either.
Colin True
00:11:52.864 - 00:11:55.888
I mean, I've done the like. Like a polar bear jumped in the ocean.
Justin Housman
00:11:55.984 - 00:12:13.720
Honestly, pretty similar, you know, I would think. But. Yeah, I've never done like an actual. But like, I would. I got to think it feels really good, but it probably feels really itchy.
I think, like, the second you get out that, like the, you know, right before you get warm again, you get itchy and Like, I would bet that would feel strange, but I feel like I would have a heart attack. I don't know.
Colin True
00:12:14.420 - 00:12:23.292
Well, part of it. And I think there's the. There's the mental piece of it where being in control of your body and understand. Accepting that you're getting.
Because there's a fight or flight thing that happens.
Justin Housman
00:12:23.356 - 00:12:23.580
Right.
Colin True
00:12:23.620 - 00:12:36.806
So it's like submerging yourself. Like, there's. There's. There's a benefit there. It's not just to say, like, I think there's obviously benefits beyond just the.
On the physiological level. It's just the kind of way there's. Now we have gear reviews for these cold plunge tubs.
Justin Housman
00:12:36.838 - 00:12:36.998
Yeah.
Colin True
00:12:37.014 - 00:12:49.974
There's like, you know, like, writing these articles that are like, oh, man, it's so good for you. It's like, based off of what.
Like, you know, this needs to be kind of a, you know, like, say, kind of intimating that if you don't do it, it's like, not even green.
Justin Housman
00:12:50.022 - 00:12:52.250
You're not getting. You know, maximizing your potential.
Colin True
00:12:52.750 - 00:12:53.158
Right.
Justin Housman
00:12:53.214 - 00:12:53.494
Which is.
Colin True
00:12:53.502 - 00:12:54.518
To me, that's where I started.
Justin Housman
00:12:54.574 - 00:13:11.558
Such a lame part of American society. Like, I'm like. I've written about this so much. Like, I like, why does anybody need to maximize their potential? For what? Like, it just.
It drives me nuts that people feel like they're missing out if they're not as fit as they possibly could be or get paid as much as they possibly could get paid or have as fast of a car. It's just like, what do we.
Colin True
00:13:11.614 - 00:13:14.566
Yeah. Apparently Patrick Mahomes agrees with you.
Justin Housman
00:13:14.638 - 00:13:38.930
You know, I feel. I remember I would joke about this with Casimiro, where it felt like anytime we had any kind of cultural, like.
Like, commentary from one of us, it was basically like, here's us walking you through how we became Buddhist. Because it's just. It's like, at the end of the day, you realize that just being.
Just being present and being okay with being present is like, what you're kind of searching for. With.
Colin True
00:13:38.970 - 00:13:40.402
It's like 90% of all of this.
Justin Housman
00:13:40.426 - 00:13:41.138
Stuff, and you think.
Colin True
00:13:41.194 - 00:13:42.594
And the rest is eating and taking a shit.
Justin Housman
00:13:42.642 - 00:13:57.182
Like, yeah. And you're like, oh, if I get really, really fit, I'll finally feel at peace. No, you're not. Or if I get the bigger house, I'll feel. No.
Like, you can feel at peace anywhere. Like, that's the whole. That's the goal. Right? Like, the goal is to not have to do all this shit, you know? Doesn't mean I don't want to.
And I Don't want. And I want to have fun.
Colin True
00:13:57.206 - 00:14:00.286
But most people, most people don't realize that that's the goal, which is the problem.
Justin Housman
00:14:00.358 - 00:14:03.662
Right? And it's not like I'm doing that. I mean, I'm just as guilty as everybody else about like.
Colin True
00:14:03.686 - 00:14:11.774
Yeah, but at least you're aware of it and you have moments where you probably kind of achieve it, at least at a certain degree. And you're like, okay, you know, like, this is a good moment. And then you know, something like, we.
Justin Housman
00:14:11.782 - 00:14:26.670
Were arguing about this before we started recording, but like when my two little girls are in bed with us like that, that feels like that moment to me. It's like, what could.
Like there's literally nothing in the world that could ever replicate the feeling of my five year old, my three year old, cozied up with me in a warm bed on a cold night. Nothing. Nothing.
Colin True
00:14:27.330 - 00:14:29.162
What if I gave you like a million dollars in cash?
Justin Housman
00:14:29.226 - 00:15:55.446
I would, I would take that million dollars to not ever. To not have to work or do anything but sleep in that bed with my two little girls. It was just fun. That further. No. Then, no, I don't want it.
I honestly, I wouldn't want it. I really wouldn't. Like, that's the, that's it. That's the goal. But anyway, that's. That's a different topic.
I will say that reading this and reading that there's not necessarily like obvious medical benefits that you can point to and, and really easily does remind me a bit of acupuncture, which I completely love and completely buy. Don't know why, I don't think we really know. But I can tell you that everything from mental health to when I have bad back issues, acupuncture works.
And I don't really care why. I don't care if it's mental. It might be. I don't know. I mean, it could just be that sitting in, sitting in a room. I actually.
So I've done a lot of acupuncture. Where I live now, they don't have community acupuncture. So I have. It's just me by myself.
But in the city, in San Francisco, I imagine lots of cities have this. You do community acupuncture where it's way cheaper and there might be 10 people in a room. And I firmly believe that's 90% of it.
Like, you go in there, everyone's relaxed, there's like soft music on the. The acupuncturist is walking or whispering. Okay, do you need some more time?
How sad is that feeling, and you can sort of hear it, and you just kind of, like, open your eyes a little bit and it's kind of dark and you can see all these people just blissed out and chilling. And it's like that. That feel like you lift each other up, even without talking to each other.
You just all feel like we're all healing together, whether it's, again, physical, mental, whatever. And, like, I don't. I'm sure there's no science that shows why that works, but it totally does.
Colin True
00:15:55.518 - 00:15:59.158
Well, is. Do you think it's the acupuncture, or do you think it's more the collective?
Justin Housman
00:15:59.254 - 00:16:00.710
That's what I mean. It could very well be that.
Colin True
00:16:00.750 - 00:16:00.966
Yeah.
Justin Housman
00:16:00.998 - 00:16:47.194
I mean, but I still. I feel it to a certain degree as well when I go by myself, but. But it's not quite the same.
And I can tell you I've walked in with, like, back spasms where I couldn't really, like, move and gotten up and walked out just fine. That has happened. Doesn't happen every time, but it's happened. I know there's all this weird. I mean, I've heard some weird.
Not weird, just stuff I hadn't heard before in the last few years on Radiolab about something called, like, the interstitial. They think there might be. We might be discovering a new organ. Have you heard of this? It's like, it's. It's like a system of. I don't even remember.
What if it's like, nerves or cells or something like right below the skin that seems connected to everywhere else on your body. And we're kind of just now figuring out what it is and what it does. And when you.
When you read that, you're like, oh, right, that's probably what acupuncture is tapping into. Like, there is a network of connections throughout your body and, like.
Colin True
00:16:47.282 - 00:16:47.626
Right.
Justin Housman
00:16:47.698 - 00:16:53.190
I don't know. Anyway, point is, is it reminds me a little bit of acupuncture, which I absolutely think is the coolest thing in the world.
Colin True
00:16:53.730 - 00:17:11.981
I mean, I can't speak to the acupuncture piece of it, but I do think on the community side, like, that's something that's been discovered. Like, a lot of the. There's been, you know, a lot of recent discoveries about, like, the. How objectively bad, like, alcohol is for you. Right.
It's like, it's like there used to be, like, oh, you can have some, and it's good for you. They're like, actually, no, that's not true. It's not good for Anything but what is good is community. Right.
Justin Housman
00:17:12.065 - 00:17:13.701
Being enjoying yourself. Right. Yeah.
Colin True
00:17:13.765 - 00:18:46.952
And. And there is.
And there isn't a thing that gets offset where if you're hanging out with people on a regular basis, you know, maybe not getting blackout drunk, but having a couple of drinks, it's kind of like there's where the positive energy comes from of like being with community and how. What that actually does for you.
I mean, this is right in line with the doctors being like, you should go mountain biking or, you know, actually you should get your heart rate up at least 30 minutes every single day because you need that for your anxiety or whatever it is. And I think that is the. I guess that's kind of gets back to my point about why, like this is kind of an interesting thing about the cold plunge.
It's like, again, if it's your thing, then that's awesome.
But you know, when it just becomes covered and talked about, I mean, like, I guess someone pulled the veil back for me on this stuff when I started working at Goo Energy Labs. And like my first day and you're going in and I was all into endurance sports and I was mountain bike racing.
I'm like, oh, I'm gonna run an ultramarathon. And the lead scientist at Goo is like, yeah, man, like a Coke's the same. Having like a Snickers is just as good.
You can argue the delivery of a gel is what makes it most effective.
But it was at that time, this is over a decade ago, I was so bought in on the marketing of sports nutrition of like, dude, if you want to fucking do this, you gotta eat this. And then you realize, nah, bag of potato chips is fine. You know, that's fine. And that's sort of the. That's what I think is at play here.
When you have like the level of like, well, go to the trade show and you see the guy sell, you know, hawking the cold plunge tub about why you need to have that in your house and what it's going to do for you versus no, you've discovered this is a really important thing to you. It makes you feel really good about you and your place in the world. So you should have a cold plunge tub then. Great. I'm glad you can have one.
Justin Housman
00:18:46.976 - 00:18:48.008
Totally. That's the thing.
Colin True
00:18:48.144 - 00:18:53.512
But just know that it's mostly bullshit on what it's doing for your body. Yeah. Might be helping your head more than your body.
Justin Housman
00:18:53.536 - 00:19:08.656
We should have had a little disclaimer at the beginning of that. Like, if you don't want to have your bubble popped about cold bludges? Don't listen to this.
Because, honestly, if you do, if you think it's working great, again, it might. I don't know. Again, I can't point. I can't give you. I'm sure they exist, but I can't give you a study that shows what acupuncture is supposed to do.
I can just tell you that for me, it works also.
Colin True
00:19:08.728 - 00:19:09.440
It's amazing, right?
Justin Housman
00:19:09.480 - 00:19:38.774
Total aside, but you. But when. If.
I don't know where else to mention this, but except for this podcast, but you talking about, like, going have a couple drinks with, like, the community made me think of it. So. So, you know, I go, I. I get a beer almost every day at this place down the street from my house.
This, like, legendary mountain bike slash, like, like, beer place. And it's, you know, like, you can hardly breathe because they also make sausages. There's no ventilation.
So, like, you walk in there, it's just like, good Lord, you know, like, it's smoky.
Colin True
00:19:38.902 - 00:19:40.998
Are you the norm of Fairfax?
Justin Housman
00:19:41.174 - 00:19:42.630
Okay, so I walk in.
Colin True
00:19:42.670 - 00:19:44.342
Oh, did I spoil you? I'm sorry, no.
Justin Housman
00:19:44.366 - 00:20:23.794
But I've also, like, I've joked before about when I have friends come in from out of town. I mean, there are regulars there that have their own names on the seats, like, they know who I am. But it's not the same.
There are the people who are lifers, you know?
But, like, I've talked before about how funny it would be to have someone like you, for example, I probably thought about this when we were supposed to do our mountain bike trip. Like, we'd come in there, but, oh, you got to go to Gestalt House with me. And I'd pay them to, like, as soon as we open the door to go, Justin.
Like, that kind of thing. Anyway, point one. Point is, like, I went there a couple nights ago. I sit down, it's like 5:30. I have like, an article, right?
The girls are out doing something with their friends. So I have some free time. I go sit down, order a beer.
I'm there for about 30 seconds, and somebody starts playing the Cheers theme song on the jukebox.
Colin True
00:20:23.922 - 00:20:24.450
Come on.
Justin Housman
00:20:24.490 - 00:20:35.148
And it was just like. And the whole everybody in there was just, like, started kind of sing along. It was amazing.
And it was just like, I'm glad that everybody else in here feels the same way about this place. It was. It was great.
Colin True
00:20:35.204 - 00:21:15.846
All right, so that opening segment brought to you by Garage Grown Gear and hey, outdoor retailers. Are you looking to spice up your assortment of products and brands in 2025. Check out the more than 200 brands carried at Garage Grown Gear.
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Thanks for supporting this part of the podcast.
Justin Housman
00:21:15.958 - 00:21:24.934
Lloyd Vogel's such a cool name. Just looking at it, like, imagine having a V, a Y and three L's in your name. Amazing.
Colin True
00:21:25.062 - 00:21:27.396
That's like the only combination you could. And two O's.
Justin Housman
00:21:27.428 - 00:21:32.532
Yeah, yeah, totally. It's just, it's, there's like four letters in this entire name. It's, it's, it's great.
Colin True
00:21:32.716 - 00:21:36.660
I said on LinkedIn yesterday I want to make, you know, tell Lloyd Vogel we say hi. Stickers.
Justin Housman
00:21:36.740 - 00:21:37.300
I saw that.
Open Container!
00:21:37.340 - 00:21:38.080
That's great.
Colin True
00:21:40.460 - 00:22:32.532
All right, man, let's head on in to Houseman's house. This is where we check in with our favorite outdoor journalist to see what he's been writing about. And that is, of course, our own Justin Hausman.
Last week on Housman's House, I kind of wrote this fake point thinking it was like a recap of us had come. Last week on Housman's House, Justin found himself digging into the Explore Act.
And he did because we talked about an element of that piece of legislation, which was the Bolt Act.
And for the second week in a row, we're going to talk about the Explore act because on nationalparkstraveler.org this week, Justin wrote looked like a featured piece about some folks who perhaps are not as supportive as what has been presented as an absolute slam dunk across the board piece of legislation like the Explore act, especially when it comes to wilderness. So, Justin, what's not to like about the Explorer Act? What was your whole piece about it?
Justin Housman
00:22:32.556 - 00:22:51.238
Well, for me, nothing. I mean, I'm a big supporter of it, but I wanted to look at people that might have reservations.
There were some out there, people and groups, and largely they had issues with, like, parts of the legislation, not the Explore act as a whole, for the most part.
Colin True
00:22:51.294 - 00:22:52.010
Okay.
Justin Housman
00:22:52.350 - 00:24:58.354
But what I, I talked to or an organization called Wilderness Watch, which is a non Profit that's dedicated to basically trying as best they can to preserve the letter of the law of the Wilderness act, which was written in 1964, which is where we set out federally does. Federally designated wilderness areas, which cannot have really any human tampering, for the most part. No roads. I mean, there.
There can be trails, but no permanent installations, nothing like that. And so there are exceptions, of course. Like anything, it was a comp. You know, there's. It was a compromise.
Some stuff is grandfathered in where there's, like, grazing rights in some places, et cetera. But for the most part, the idea was to preserve some areas as. As untrammeled as possible. And it's a small percentage of our public lands.
It's like 5%. And. And the majority of that is in Alaska. I want to say it's either 2 or 3% in the lower 48.
That's actually federally designated as a wilderness area. And like, a lot, I often. You know, I never really knew what that meant or thought about it a lot.
A lot of the places I like to go backpacking are in wilderness areas. And I just never. You'd pass a sign that says Hoover Wilderness, and I go. I don't know what that means.
You know, like, I was aware that it was a federally. You know, a federal designation of some kind, but I wasn't really sure what it meant.
Some places will have explicit signage like that means no bikes, no hunting, no this, no that, whatever.
Anyway, point of all that is that Wilderness Watch, one of their main complaints or issues was with the park act, which is Protect America's Rock Climbing. And we talked about this last week. We talked about it before, but that was the one where they were. Where the.
It was basically allowing each national park. I'm sorry, each wilderness area to kind of set their own rules, allowing permanent climbing anchors to be drilled into rock. And, you know, it's.
You know, we probably. We may have already talked about this. One of the things that. I think I probably have the same response to that as most people who either don't.
Or I was gonna say who don't climb. But no climbers that have had the same response. My response initially is, well, geez, man, you can't see them.
You know, I love wilderness areas, and if there's some granite, like, spire up there, I wouldn't be able to tell. I wouldn't even be able to tell if someone was climbing it, you know, and like. And the idea wasn't.
Colin True
00:24:58.402 - 00:25:04.178
I kind of like, when you can. I almost like. Like this Is a sport climbing route like, oh, there's the route. Well, yeah, like, follow the anchors along the way.
Justin Housman
00:25:04.234 - 00:25:12.482
You can't have that.
You can't have like multiple, like, I don't know the difference between sport climbing, but sport climbing is explicitly like, no, you can't have that many bolts, but.
Colin True
00:25:12.506 - 00:25:14.450
I see. But that's a permanent anchor. That's why.
Justin Housman
00:25:14.490 - 00:28:41.220
Well, also, but these are permanently drilled in anchors, but I think there's fewer of them. I think sport climbing requires more. I'm not, honestly not sure some. Somebody who's a climber can write it in and tell us.
But anyway, the point is, is that like this group wilderness watch is like, look, we get it. These are little tiny pieces of metal. We understand. But the point is, is that these are permanent installations.
And the act specifically says you can't have that. So what are we doing here, folks? Congress is making an exception here for one particular outdoor pursuit.
And we're not saying you can't climb, climb, have a blast. But permanent bolted in anchors don't. In wilderness areas don't. That violates the letter of the law. That was their main thing. And that.
It may seem harmless, but there's lots of little things you don't realize, like nesting birds can get triggered by, by climbers in these places. These are remote places for the most part. And so, you know, right.
There's, there's, there's little things that you may not realize that are potentially threatening animals and the wilderness experience.
And I talked to, like, a wildlife biologist who's written a lot about the impact of human recreation on wilderness areas or also just public lands in general.
You know, he talked, he, he told me about, you know, situations where you'll see, and forgive me if I brought this up last week, but I don't think I did. Situations where you might see animals kind of bounding off into. As you spook them on a trail and you just, you just think, oh, there goes a deer.
But, you know, it's in a lot of places.
There's, you know, these animals have very like strict sort of regimented seasonal activities and you might be scaring off a pregnant, you know, bighorn sheep and this is the only accessible food she has. And, you know, you think it's no big deal. There's a sheep just kind of running off in the distance.
But, you know, studies show that, like, animals around places that are, that have a human impact to them generally are, you know, less healthy or they suffer more. Their fetal, fetal health is lower, this kind of thing. And so Basically, there were just. There were.
There were a handful of groups and organizations that were just like, look, we get it, but recreation does not equal conservation. And we're here as a conservation group and it's. We love that you want to get out there and do stuff, and we totally understand.
We love to get out there and having a blast in the wilderness, too, but that doesn't mean that we should. That's kind of their.
That was kind of their point is that, like, you know, what the Explore act does is anything that's promoting more outdoor recreation is inherently consuming something, right? Like, you're.
The more people you get after, the more people on the trails, like, we're all doing such a good job of really promoting this, the more you do start to erode a true wilderness. And I don't know where I stand on that because to me, it feels like I very much buy into.
The more you show people how important these places are, the more they're willing to want to try and preserve them and protect them. And you know that. That most of the people that I talked to for the piece that were on the pro explorer side said that same thing, right?
Like, I didn't care about conservation until I started climbing. And I get into these places and I see these animals and I see this nature, and I think, holy crap.
And now I've dedicated my life to being a sustainable climbing advocate or whatever, and this happens a lot. Yep. Right. And I would say the same about myself. I never really thought much about ocean science or ocean conservation until I started surfing.
I didn't think much about, you know, redwood restoration or anything like that until I started backpacking in Californ, all these sorts of things. And so, you know, to me, I still feel like it opens the door for more protection rather than consumption. But I get it.
I understand this point of view and it's certainly interesting, and I think it's worth pointing it out. So that was. That was. That was the point of the story.
Colin True
00:28:41.600 - 00:29:58.266
I think this is the conservation versus recreation thing.
If you talk about all the silos that exist within sort of the outdoor space and like, we usually point to like, you know, snowmobilers versus skiers or whatever, right? It's like, hey, the same resources you're looking, you're going after, why can't you get along better?
Even the conversation we had with Rochelle a couple weeks ago about hunters versus human powered folks, the conservation versus recreation one might be the toughest one, right?
Because there's so many things that align, but then they are, you Know, there are very hardcore conservationists who are like, you will not put a trail anywhere, sir. You know, like, that kind of vibe. And then there's obviously people who are like, hey, you know, let me go outside and play.
This is, you know, my happy place. And finding probably common ground with those two groups might be the toughest. I'm kind of with you. Like, I hear everything.
It makes all the sense in the world.
And I like knowing those things that you just said about, hey, you might be disturbing things that in a way that you didn't realize you were disturbing them.
But it does feel like you're getting kind of nitpicky, too, in a lot of these places, like, there's just no one around, even in a quote unquote busy wilderness. Right. Like, you know, So, I don't know, like, that's. That's it. Obviously, you passed with flying colors. The explore acted across the board.
So it's not like nothing was holding it up or this wasn't a big, contentious piece of legislation. So.
Which is why I think this is interesting, because it's kind of like all we heard about for a year was just this enormous exact support for this exact.
Justin Housman
00:29:58.268 - 00:30:37.156
Exactly. Which is why I wanted to look at it. Right. I also think that, you know, I shouldn't. I don't want to mischaracterize them. I mean, they.
It wasn't that they felt like, you know, permanent climbing anchors were this huge issue. It was more that. That opens the door to other things. Like, one of the people I talked to talked about how she works in D.C.
and is involved with, you know, I guess, lobbying, and, you know, a lot of bills are presented that are about expanding bike access in public lands. And she.
And a lot, you know, she's like, I don't know what stops someone now from making the argument that a bike should be okay on a TR trail out there. And, Frank, you know, it's like. I don't know, like, I. I think it should. Well, I mean, that's the thing. It's. It's.
Colin True
00:30:37.188 - 00:30:37.588
It's.
Justin Housman
00:30:37.684 - 00:31:21.340
You. You really have to, like, wrestle with what matters to you, you know, and what's important and. And that kind of thing.
And so a lot of what they were saying was, you know, now that you've made an exception for one particular outdoor pursuit, what's. What's to stop you from making another one, you know, and there are other things in the act that they were a little bit wary of.
Like, you know, one of them. I forget one of the provisions, like, Makes it easier to put in, you know, cell towers in places.
And I don't think there'd be a cell tower in a wilderness area. But if you have cell service in. What does that mean? Does that change your relationship with.
There's just a lot of really thorny, interesting questions. And these are all things that we need to grapple with. Like, you need to work through it.
And I hope that the people that wrote the Explore the parts of the, you know, that wrote parts of the Explorer act took these things into account, because these are questions we should be asking ourselves before we move forward with something.
Colin True
00:31:21.960 - 00:31:29.520
Isn't some of this, like, cart before the horse kind of stuff, though? I mean, like, we're at a point where people are still realizing that, like, being active is a good thing.
Justin Housman
00:31:29.560 - 00:31:30.352
Yeah, right.
Colin True
00:31:30.456 - 00:31:58.828
Many people think that, like, it's fine just to sit around. I mean, and I'm not saying that with a lot of judgment. Judgment, because it wasn't that long ago when we were just fighting to survive. Right.
This is not right. You know, 40, 50, even, like, even like beginning part of the 20th century, like recreation, like through activity. What are you talking about?
So, you know, like, don't we need to kind of get people to your point about, like, people discovering conservation through recreation? Feels like that's probably the smart path now. And then we can, you know, not to say, worry about it later. But also, I mean, there's an argument.
Justin Housman
00:31:58.844 - 00:32:33.634
To be made that's the entire point of the national park system. You know, it's, it's. It's put things aside to protect them. Sure.
But it's also, I mean, if you read their literature, from what people were saying when they were first starting the national parks, a lot of it was about inspiring people to protect places, you know, and so that's the whole kind of. The whole point. But, you know, at a certain point, if, you know, I was part of the.
I cite some studies about, like, how many millions of people went outdoors. And it's like, I think I want to say it was in Yellowstone, you know, they got 300 and something million visitors in a year.
And it's like that's basically all of them. That's like every American going country, you know.
Colin True
00:32:33.722 - 00:32:34.130
Yeah.
Justin Housman
00:32:34.210 - 00:32:42.690
And it doesn't matter how much you try and, you know, shoehorn those people into certain places, like, that's gonna. Cause that's gonna leave a mark, you know, and like.
Colin True
00:32:42.730 - 00:32:43.122
Right.
Justin Housman
00:32:43.226 - 00:33:46.668
Every little decision that you make, oh, it's okay to have a car here, or it's okay to have a Sign here or whatever. These. These things trickle down. It's really difficult to see it holistically, I think. Yeah.
And that's all these people were saying, you know, like, let's take a 30,000 foot view of, like, what we're actually doing here. So again, I don't, you know, I tend to come down on the side of more recreation is better. But it's all, you know, like. I don't know.
I also, you know, I've studied this sort of thing for a long time, and, like, humans have always had an impact on places. You know, I mean, like, you can't make the argument that, you know, indigenous Americans, they were burning crops and doing all kinds of.
I mean, they were making an impact everywhere they went. Most of the trails that we walk on were Native American trails. You know, like, is like, there's humans make an impact.
So I don't know the differences between that and someone putting in a little bolt. You know, one of the things I heard was interesting. I didn't bring it up when I was talking to her. And I didn't mean this.
I don't mean this is like a gotcha. But one of the people I talked to from Wilderness Watch mentioned that, you know, they recently there was some.
A big brouhaha because a climber had put a bolt, like, right. Either. I don't think it was through, but, like, right next to a petroglyph somewhere, right?
Colin True
00:33:46.724 - 00:33:48.316
Oh, geez. Okay, that sounds dumb, right?
Justin Housman
00:33:48.388 - 00:33:59.388
This is not in a wilderness area. But they're like, see, this is the kind of shit that can happen. But she's telling me this. I'm like, but somebody carved into that rock.
Like, someone else carved into that rock, right?
Colin True
00:33:59.444 - 00:34:02.620
We've determined that that's okay, that carving's okay.
Justin Housman
00:34:02.700 - 00:34:25.212
It's just interesting. Again, I'm not coming down on the side. It's just an interesting thing to play with and to think about.
Like, we get enraged at graffiti on rocks and places, but then, like, we also, like, pay money to fly to places to see painted, to see this sort of stuff. Right? Painted rock. I want to see that. So it's just like. It's interesting. I think it's a worthwhile debate.
Even if it's not a debate, it's a worthwhile conversation to have.
Colin True
00:34:25.316 - 00:34:32.140
Did you. You talked to Jessica Turner from the outdoor rec roundtable about this? Did you get a chance to ask her, like, pose some of these examples to her?
Justin Housman
00:34:32.180 - 00:35:50.490
And she was surprised. She actually was surprised to hear of the. Because it was so unanimous.
Like, her first reaction was really like, I didn't know there was anybody that was opposed, you know. Right. And you know, which I get. Cause she's in the belly of the beast, right. Like trying to move this legislation forward.
And so I'm not surprised to hear that. But I put, you know, I put the questions to her and she said the same. I also talked to Access Fund. They largely said the same thing.
Like Access Fund is very dedicated to teaching people sustainable climbing techniques. You know, like we monitor things like bird nests. Like, we know we're birding areas. If we. If a popular route.
If a peregrine falcon decides to nest at some popular climbing like route, we will be like, nope. Like we're telling all our members, you don't climb there right now.
Like, you know, like they do this on purpose, you know, to try and protect these areas like they are. They consider themselves dedicated stewards. And Jessica is. I don't know if Jessica's a climber, but she, you know, she.
She kind of alluded to that as well and that, you know, all in all, it looks like a bra. Like a bra. Like a bigger.
A bigger picture win for folks that want to use public lands in a safe and responsible way than it is a detriment to the wilderness areas. But again, it just comes down on come. It just depends on what side you come down on. If you're.
If you're a big proponent of completely untrammeled wilderness with no human impact at all in. You're not gonna like outdoor recreation, generally speaking, probably.
Colin True
00:35:51.870 - 00:36:08.390
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Colin True
00:37:19.560 - 00:37:21.500
And now back to the show.
Chris DeMakes
00:37:22.760 - 00:37:25.220
It's time for our parting shot.
Colin True
00:37:26.120 - 00:38:10.328
All right, so we're kind of moving into our parting shot right now.
It's a little different than we typically do it because I wrote something for our newsletter which came out yesterday when you're listening to this, and I want to read it for our parting shot.
One There was just, there was some news last week that Outside laid off pretty much, which is reportedly, I mean, just from I got probably close to a dozen messages about this. They say almost the entire editorial team at Outside magazine was laid off.
Obviously, they're not putting out press releases or verifying this, but that is just sort of chalk this up under just people who know who are reaching out. And we didn't want it to go uncommented on.
So I'm going to read what I wrote for the newsletter and then I definitely want to get Justin's thoughts on it as well. So a little bit of a different parting shot and then Justin could do his parting shot, which I'm sure will be just as deep as this when we get to it.
Justin Housman
00:38:10.464 - 00:38:12.140
I hate the color orange.
Colin True
00:38:12.720 - 00:40:57.460
Damn it. So this was called the Denver's Ship of Theseus, and this is what I wrote. Are you familiar with the Greek paradox known as the Ship of Theseus?
It's a long story, but the summation goes like this.
If one replaced each plank of the Ship of Theseus with a new piece of wood every time it began to rot, there would eventually come a time when all the planks had been replaced and none would be the original ship. Does this mean it's still the same Ship of Theseus?
And I was reminded of this paradox this past weekend when I started receiving emails and texts from those in the outdoor media scene, all letting me know that sometime last week, Outside Incorporated had laid off a significant portion of its editorial team.
I thought of the Ship of Theseus because even though the logo remains the same and they still call themselves Outside, it sure doesn't feel like the same company anymore. That's not just because they laid people off.
I'm generally pretty forgiving when brands and companies when that choice is made because it's one of those terrible things that no one wants. People don't want to lose their jobs, and companies don't want to be in a position where they have to take those jobs away.
It simply means the company isn't doing well or that mistakes have been made.
No outside hearing that the layoffs affected the editorial team only reinforced what I and many others have felt for some time, that much of the content they've been putting out has been so milquetoast and uninspiring that they don't need as many experienced people to produce it anymore. If you head to their website, you'll see what I mean. I mean, what's the vision? What's the product?
It's genuinely hard to tell, even when you're looking right at it. But it definitely isn't journalism. It's no secret that Outside no longer sees itself as a media company, but rather as a tech brand.
We all know they're aiming for that big IPO to pay off the work of the past five years. So on one hand, perhaps this move was overdue.
If they had chosen to rename the company instead of keeping the Outside name, maybe the outcry over last week's layoffs would have been much more muted. But even though things haven't been the same for a long time, they still call themselves Outside and they still use the same logo.
So it's hard not to see them as the thing we all used to love while also lamenting that it's no longer what it was. So much like the ship of Theseus. At what point did Outside cease to be what it was and become something entirely new?
And really, it doesn't matter because I think we just need to stop thinking about them the way we used to. That ship has sailed. So that's what I had to say on it. I don't typically like to talk about layoffs.
Like I said, it's just kind of like, I don't know, man, blame capitalism. It happens. It happens. The things we talk about, there's not usually a lot to say.
No one's going to come on the pod and say, yeah, we laid a bunch of people off tough. You know, that's not going to happen.
But I do think when it comes to Outside, and we've talked about them a lot before, and we just had a member of their corps on last week, I definitely wanted to say something because we heard from a lot of people about this. So I don't know, what do you think, man?
Justin Housman
00:40:57.500 - 00:43:01.592
First of all, that was really well written. That's nice. That's a good piece and well read, too. It's nobody's fault, you know, I don't know. This is a big one. Like, this is a pretty big blow.
This feels like when.
I mean, I was at Surfer magazine when they furloughed everybody and stopped producing anything, you know, and like, Surfers magazine's been around a lot longer Outside and there's so many people to where you want to point fingers. But what it really comes down to, obviously is just shifting media consumption. I mean Outside didn't do anything wrong.
If they stopped producing long form articles is because it stopped being profitable for them to do it. Right. Is that their fault? No, I don't think so. You know what's interesting to me is working in our space where we're completely independent.
Same thing with Adventure Journal really, but more so with Rock Fight. We hear almost nothing but people wanting to hear stories about outdoor things. Like people are dying for it, right?
I guess they're just not willing to pay for it. I, I don't know what other what else to say. I mean, to be honest, it's, it's so, so print didn't work for them. Like it hasn't for lots.
And so they shutter print and they are roaring forward digital. But clearly they never figured out a way to make money there either. So like I, because people weren't spending it, people weren't paying.
I mean, granted, I think $100 a year was insane when Outside came out with their like package where you get like I, you, you have to get all this stuff to get it. I mean that, that seemed nuts to almost everybody I talked to. And so, so I'm not that surprised.
I don't even know if they were still running that at the end. Like, I don't know what it would have cost for an outside subscription, but I see this happening all the time.
I mean, I don't know where I would go in the surf world for great community based news. I mean, Surfer is still around.
They make really cool content, but it's not the same kind of, I don't know, like it doesn't feel like a home, it doesn't feel like community. And that's what Outside kind of was. And that's what I think the outdoor industry really needs and wants.
Or not the industry, the outdoors or whatever. Community.
Colin True
00:43:01.696 - 00:43:01.960
World.
Justin Housman
00:43:02.000 - 00:43:02.392
Community.
Colin True
00:43:02.496 - 00:43:03.144
Yeah. Right.
Justin Housman
00:43:03.232 - 00:44:23.992
So it's there, it's out there. And maybe it is just, maybe it is just everybody's going to give five bucks a month to the one media company they like or to, to two or three.
You know, I mean, obviously Escape Collective is doing really well. You know, we're doing pretty well. I mean, AJ's doing great in print. You know, they're, they're like Mountain Gazette's doing really great in print.
I mean like these, these entities exist and so maybe we're all just kind of like going into our own little thing. Think great example. Don't know. But I will say that there was something there. I do think that we lose.
I mean, God, I mean, you can say this about American culture in general, but I do think that we definitely lose something that's really important when we don't have that flagship thing that we can all kind of point to as either. This is the best one. This is where if I'm going to be doing something I want to, like in the outdoor world, I want it to appear here. Yeah.
Because I know everyone's going to read it. Like, we, we. That I think is really important and we don't have that. And we've known this was coming for a really long time.
I mean, like, I started at surfer in 2013, I think, and it was already like writing was on the wall about how social media was gonna just tank all of what we were doing, you know? So, yeah, again, I don't. I do think that largely every decision outside has made in the last, I don't know, five years has been a huge misstep.
I mean, I couldn't think of a single thing that I've. That I've seen come out of outside where I was like, that's what you guys need to be doing. That hasn't happened once.
Colin True
00:44:24.176 - 00:44:25.300
Patty's show.
Justin Housman
00:44:25.680 - 00:44:28.056
You know what? You're actually totally right. You're actually.
Colin True
00:44:28.128 - 00:44:28.600
No, I'm not.
Justin Housman
00:44:28.640 - 00:44:31.192
No, you were completely right. Completely. And.
Colin True
00:44:31.216 - 00:44:35.048
And I do believe a lot of what Chris told C.J. told me about what they're planning at the festival.
Justin Housman
00:44:35.144 - 00:44:38.280
Yeah. I have nothing to do with that. But, yeah, you're right.
Colin True
00:44:38.320 - 00:44:41.448
I think they have good plan for that. I mean, I think it's. They got to see what's going to happen.
Justin Housman
00:44:41.504 - 00:44:47.464
Well, that's the thing Outside, obviously, the company exists. Right. They've moved into an experience, I guess, like an events. Experiences.
Colin True
00:44:47.592 - 00:44:48.552
Tech company.
Justin Housman
00:44:48.736 - 00:44:49.700
Yeah. They own.
Colin True
00:44:50.560 - 00:45:04.830
They acquired another tech platform last week before this announcement, before this, this move happened. And it's by. From what I've heard from the people who have reached out, it sounds like they're going to continue to make things.
They're just on a much reduced staff. I don't know if they're going to replace the people they laid off.
Justin Housman
00:45:06.010 - 00:45:07.970
You can't make good content with one person.
Colin True
00:45:08.090 - 00:46:09.822
But they haven't been. I mean, just go look what I'm saying in my piece. Like, go look at their site. I mean, everything. It's. It's the barest. What's Their product right now.
When you're looking at the, the what they're producing on a daily basis now, I'm not talking about Gaia, I'm not talking about the technology stuff. When you look at the content that they're writing, yeah, you probably can do that with a skeleton crew.
Cause it's just like not a lot of great stuff and it's just not that interesting. And it's very thin, top level stuff.
And the reason why people I think have been struggling with this is because we used to get again into Thin Airs and the Perfect storms and all of this, the leg into the Wild. These, these kind of seminal pieces of our adventure community came out.
I mean, you know, there was, they had one not that long ago where they, they chronicled what happened with like Charlie as a Charlie Bartlett, the guy in Yosemite. Like, I mean that was a really well done piece and I just, it's, it's. If this is the way they're going, it's okay.
I think the beat, I think the reason, like, kind of like I was alluding to, I think the reason people have a tough time with it is because it still looks like outside. You will go to their website and.
Justin Housman
00:46:09.846 - 00:46:12.110
There'S the logo and it's like pointing.
Colin True
00:46:12.190 - 00:46:29.282
We all kind of have to get over it at some point.
You know, it's like it's not what it used to be and you know, what, what it will become or what it is will, you know, be determined by the more moves they make. But. Well, you know, I feel for the people who lost their jobs. I feel for that, them having to go through this, that, that sucks.
But you know, I guess I will.
Justin Housman
00:46:29.306 - 00:47:06.530
Say that, you know, like we said a zillion times and I, I suspect people are doing this because Mountain Gazette's doing good, AJ's doing well. These sorts of things are happening. So.
But you know, like you can't, like I don't feel like I'm lamenting the passing of something something because outside already, as far as I enjoyed it has been gone for, you know, quite a while. So it's not so like I'm, I'm, I feel bad for the people that were involved and like the legacy of it. Yes.
But you know, it hasn't been something I've wanted to financially support for, for a really long time. There just hasn't been any reason for you to do it.
Colin True
00:47:06.910 - 00:47:07.318
Same.
Justin Housman
00:47:07.374 - 00:48:57.676
But you know, I subscribe to Mountain Gazette, I subscribed to Adventure Journal, you know, like, like I, I, I pay for the Things that I want to exist and that I want to be strong. And we have to, you just have to do it, you know.
And the problem that Outside ran into is the same one that Surfer ran into, which is that you have, you have outside interests come in and they have some money and they have an idea of what they want to do. And the content is always the. Well, I say the, the written content is always the first thing to go, right?
Because that seems like the thing that's either easiest to replace or cheaper to replace, right? Videos are way cheaper than paying a writer a dollar a word for 2000 piece or 2000 word piece or whatever.
And it's weird how nobody seems to have learned this lesson that the second that you devalue the content in your own mind, the readers do too. They can tell and they're not going to come back.
And you can succeed with two dipshits laughing at each other over a mic in a way that you, you can't, I think with like a real corporate heavy handed control over like a content stream. Because this is legit. This feels authentic to people.
Like people listen to you and me and Dave and Owen and Shantae and everybody talk to each other and it's a conversation you're gonna have, you know, at the ski bar or whatever, you know, like this is just normal. And that's what Outside was, right?
It was like, here's a good, here's an amazing story about this dude who like walked into Alaska and like lived there and then died and said, oh my God, you know, like I'm gonna write a book. Like, like, like that's a great story and we all want to talk about it. And the new backpacks are out. Holy shit.
You know, like all this stuff and it's like that just, there's. Once you lose your authenticity, you don't get it back. You can't get it back.
Like you couldn't start out, you couldn't outside, couldn't come back next month with a new owner and like a whole new dedication to print. I don't think it would work. I think at this point you have to call it something else.
Once you lose that authenticity, you've lost everything as far as I'm concerned.
Colin True
00:48:57.708 - 00:49:29.512
It'd be, it'd be challenging for sure. I mean I think people, the people will judge you on the content.
I mean it's a lot of, it's not that different from a lot of like the brand give to here as well. Like it depends like what you're making and what you. What.
You know, and, and I don't know, I kind of see it as the authenticity thing plays with this audience, whether it's. You're talking about a backpack, a pair of pants, or a magazine, you know. Right. You may not like holding.
I mean, and this is why, you know, like Rogie over at Mount Gazette is unapologetic about the magazine. It's like, yep, it's a giant magazine and this is what it is. And if you don't like it, that's cool.
Justin Housman
00:49:29.576 - 00:49:35.812
I don't even read a lot of it. You know, I just like, I like that it exists, you know, know exactly.
Colin True
00:49:35.876 - 00:49:53.524
Like, it makes me. That's like, oh, okay. Like, there's a little bit of a wild west vibe to Mountain Gazette that makes me want to pick it up and see what's in it.
Every time it comes out like aj same thing I get, I pumped what's. What's going to be in here, you know, and it's. And it's.
And same thing with a lot of the brands we talk about, like the, the upand cominging founder le brands.
Justin Housman
00:49:53.572 - 00:49:53.876
Why?
Colin True
00:49:53.948 - 00:50:14.420
Because there's a vision. And this is what I'm making.
Like, you know, like Nara and, and Wild Rye and, and, and Liveson and these brands that we talk about and reference a lot because they just, they believe so much in their stuff that they want to make good stuff that we want to believe in them too. And I think when you lose that, that is really, really just impossible to get back unless you pivot hard.
And so, so that's what that just bears out over time.
Justin Housman
00:50:14.460 - 00:50:31.040
I think that one of the reasons that AJ is successful, you know, on its own, in its own sort of small scale way of being successful, you know, supporting basically a family that's like running it is. Casimiro's vision is watertight. Like, he does not deviate. I make this.
Colin True
00:50:31.340 - 00:50:33.220
You could rename it the Steve Casmiro Show.
Justin Housman
00:50:33.260 - 00:51:38.850
Honestly. Yeah, I tell the story all the time. Anybody who's worked with Steve for a long. Steven for a long time. He prefers to go by Steven these days.
Steven for a long time will tell you the same thing, which is that he is really hard to please. Not in a personal way, but when it comes to work, you can have what you think is the best pitch in the world.
And he'll be like, yeah, we covered something like that three issues ago. I just don't know. And you're like, what? But he's right. He has a vision. He has a voice. You might not like. That voice.
And then you probably don't subscribe to aj, but. But you know what to expect every single time. And that's one of the things I really have taken away from my, you know, working with.
With Kazimir for so long at aj is that you have to stick. When I'm writing copy for Patagonia, I'm doing the same thing. Like, you have to stick with your. With your.
Your confident, like, gut instinct about what is the right direction to go with something that when you deviate from that, you dick around a little bit and it. And it becomes nothing. And we've talked about this so often where outside became. Tried to become everything to everybody, and then.
Then you're nothing at that point.
Colin True
00:51:38.890 - 00:51:39.858
Then you're nothing to no one.
Justin Housman
00:51:39.914 - 00:51:55.630
So it's like, that's. That's really. And that's why I think we're succeeding, right? Is just because we have, you know, whatever it is, like, we have.
We have an authenticity.
We have a vision of just kind of being honest about the way the outdoor world works and the outdoor industry works, and people are flocking to that, you know.
Colin True
00:51:56.580 - 00:51:58.604
So, quick follow on your favorite podcast.
Justin Housman
00:51:58.652 - 00:52:05.532
Appreciate it's only $100 a month, and you'll get me blowing smoke up your butt all day long about all the cool things you do.
Colin True
00:52:05.556 - 00:52:08.348
That'd be good. That now do. Let's do Patreon, if that's what it's going to be.
Justin Housman
00:52:08.404 - 00:52:11.280
You're doing great today. You look wonderful.
Colin True
00:52:12.340 - 00:52:18.924
Justin Hosman or Stewart Sandwich looks amazing. Does that work?
Justin Housman
00:52:19.012 - 00:52:20.620
Does that sound nice? Like, would you like to be?
Colin True
00:52:20.660 - 00:52:21.980
That was great. I'm into it.
Justin Housman
00:52:22.020 - 00:52:22.636
You don't need to worry.
Colin True
00:52:22.668 - 00:52:23.846
Can you send me some voicemail?
Justin Housman
00:52:23.988 - 00:52:28.790
You're a really special person inside. I can't even see the dance.
Colin True
00:52:30.570 - 00:52:31.954
Do you have a parting shot?
Justin Housman
00:52:32.002 - 00:52:34.590
Well, yeah, but I mean, like, do I. How do I follow that?
Colin True
00:52:35.210 - 00:52:40.114
You could save it for next time you got. I could just drop the mic, you know, Honestly, I don't know. You followed it up. Great.
Justin Housman
00:52:40.202 - 00:52:55.980
Okay, good. Because I don't. I mean, I. I do, but it's so. So it seems. It's very silly now. I'll save it for next week. We can have a shot. Yeah, I can't talk about.
I can't. It was going to be about, like, getting over when someone's trying to pass you. I'm not going to. I'm not going to talk about that now. All right. Yeah.
Colin True
00:52:55.980 - 00:52:58.332
And it would have been even weirder if you went first. Then I'm like, hold on.
Justin Housman
00:52:58.356 - 00:52:59.452
Yeah, Wait a second. Yeah.
Colin True
00:52:59.516 - 00:53:00.092
Oh, good one.
Justin Housman
00:53:00.116 - 00:53:01.292
Yeah. Let me tell you mine.
Colin True
00:53:01.356 - 00:53:36.760
Yeah. All right, we'll to save. We'll save parting shots for next week, but and I guess in that case, we'll wrap it up there. So everybody listening?
We want your emails. Want to hear what you have to say? Send them to myrockflightgmail.com. the Rock fights in production Rock Fight LLC for Justin Hausman, I'm Colin True.
Come back Friday for my conversation with Peter Wickham. Come back next Monday where we'll be talking to Owen about something industry related. I'm sure it's gonna be great.
I'm sure whatever it is, it's gonna be awesome. But thank you for listening. And he's back to take us out. Kristen Makes is here like he always is to sing the rock fight fight song.
We'll see you next time. Rock fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:53:44.870 - 00:54:32.340
Welcome to the rock bike where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree.
We talk about human powered outdoor activities and big fights about topics that we find interesting like pop culture, music, the latest movie reviews, ideas that aim for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is. This is where we speak our truth. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome to the Rock fight. Rock fight.
Rock fight. Welcome to the rock flight. Rock flight. Rock fight. Rock flight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome to the rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
Colin True
00:54:34.640 - 00:54:35.784
Rock fight.
Justin Housman
00:54:35.952 - 00:54:37.040
Rock flight Fight.