Today on the show Colin and Producer Dave are joined by the most unlikely of guests... someone from Outside, Inc!
Chris Jerard (aka CJ), Outside's VP of Marketing and Executive Director of The Outside Festival and Summit heard Colin's thoughts about a recent press release regarding the 2025 edition of the festival on Monday's episode of The Rock Fight and is here today to return fire and shed a little more light on what can be expected during the second year of this event.
The conversation delves into the event's purpose and how there is more to expect from The Summit then what has already been announced. CJ addresses topics such as the cost to attend as well as why professionals should consider coming to Denver even though June is packed with other outdoor industry events.
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Episode Transcript
Colin True
00:00:00.320 - 00:04:06.968
Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True and today hell is frozen over because I got someone from Outside Inc.
To come on the Rock Fight. But before we get to that, come back to the Rock Fight this Monday for the top five outdoor gear brands.
That's right, last month we did the top five outdoor footwear brands. On Monday, it's time for Gear.
Then come back on Wednesday where Justin Hausman and I will be taking our weekly turn through the headlines to come out of the outdoor adventure community. Hey and listen everybody. Have you subscribed to Rock Fight's weekly newsletter? It's called News from the Front.
It comes out every Tuesday and if you haven't, you still have time to get it before it comes out again next Tuesday. This is a real newsletter with real content, not just another outdoor link aggregator.
Head to Rockfight Co and click Join the mailing list to sign up.
And lastly, if you're new around here, we'd love for you to subscribe and join the Rock Fight by hitting the follow button on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on. And also give us that five star rating. Alright, let's start the show.
Outside has loomed large over this podcast since it started more than two years ago.
Outside magazine was incredibly influential in how I discovered the outdoors, and as the past few years have unfolded and the Outside brand has evolved into something well beyond a magazine, I usually found myself scratching my head and questioning a decision by them more than I found myself cheering them on. And that's why if you scroll through the Rock Fight's back catalog, you'll find a fair amount of episodes with Outside squarely in the bullseye.
But if you listen to those episodes, you'll likely understand that I may have been rough on Outside, but I wasn't without good reason.
And I usually offered to have someone from Outside come on the podcast to discuss the topic further, which is really a founding principle of this show. I am just as happy to have someone come on and call me out as much as I am to call them out in the first place.
A Rock Fight only works if two people are throwing stones, after all, and until now, no one over at Outside has taken me up on my offer, and I guess I can't blame them for that. But all of that changed this week.
I opened up this past Monday's show talking about what's happening with industry events, and I zeroed in on A press release that was put out recently by Outside, where they announced who would be speaking at their upcoming industry event called the Summit, which is being held just before their big music soiree, the Outside Festival.
And like I said, on Monday, I've come around on the festival itself, but I had some questions about the Summit, like why anyone would want to spend $750 to just listen to a bunch of panelists talk full day, especially when the event is held during a month, June, that is absolutely packed with outdoor industry events.
My contention being that even if you wanted to come to the Summit, the cost and commitment to other industry events would make it hard to draw your target audience.
And that's when I heard from Chris Gerard, who's the VP of marketing for Outside Incorporated and also the executive director of the Outside Festival.
Chris, who goes by cj, offered to come on the show to refute my assertions about the Summit and hopefully win me over by explaining more about what Outside is trying to do. And after picking my jaw up off the floor, I mean, come on. Someone from Outside finally wanted to come on the show.
I, of course, accepted his offer because this is all I ever really wanted when throwing a few rocks at something. Anyway, I'm not above being told I'm wrong, and I'm definitely not above having my mind change, but that can't happen without a conversation.
So I'm psyched to tell you that CJ is on the show today.
But before you get all excited and think I'm going to unload two years of hot takes about Outside on cj, we only talk about the Summit, which honestly was good enough because I have to say, I was pretty stoked to hear what C.J. and company have planned. So welcome back to the Rock Fight, where today it's a very special. Holy shit.
Outside is on the Rock Fight episode with Chris Gerard. All right, guys. I honestly can't believe this is happening.
I never thought someone from Outside, aside from Patty O'Connell, would ever come on the Rock Fight. So this is super exciting.
We're here today with Outside Incorporated, Outside Incorporated's VP of Marketing, as well as the executive director of the Outside Festival and Summit, Chris Gerard, AKA cj. Welcome to the show, cj. Thank you so much for coming on.
CJ
00:04:07.104 - 00:04:09.880
Great. Thanks, Colin. Yeah, happy to be here.
Colin True
00:04:10.000 - 00:04:13.144
Did I get that? All right? Did I get that? You have a lot of titles, man.
CJ
00:04:13.312 - 00:04:22.424
Yeah, VP of marketing. It's just the festival thing is kind of what I'm working on right now, you know, so that's. That. That Dominates my day to day, for sure.
Producer Dave
00:04:22.592 - 00:04:26.568
Do you have a hat for each title, like a helmet, a toque cap?
CJ
00:04:26.624 - 00:04:37.508
Yeah, I try to put it, you know, it is, there's a. There's tremendous amount of task shifting, I would say, in doing these kind of live event, you know, these in real life things, for sure.
So that's actually kind of appropriate. Yeah.
Colin True
00:04:37.604 - 00:05:56.948
So I want to tell our listeners who are expecting me to maybe pummel CJ with two years worth of hot takes. We're not doing that. CJ's here to talk about the summit and the outside festival.
Maybe in the future, if he wants to come back or send one of his coworkers in, we could talk, get into all of the history of our thoughts on outside stuff. But today, like I said, we appreciate you that you're here.
We're going to talk about the Summit and the festival, which you guys are gearing up for year two of the outside festival as well as the Summit, which is the industry portion of the festival. Last week you announced who will be speaking at the summit and opened the registration arm for that event. I provided some commentary.
What I was kind of my takeaways on the summit this past week, this past Monday. And we're gonna go a little deeper today in the Summit, see how you feel about maybe some, some of my concerns or criticisms.
And I kind of want to start with, you know, they say the summit is for outdoor industry professionals.
And part of this is from actually last year's festival because I've become increasingly interested in like, kind of the different factions of who calls themselves the outdoor industry. Right.
For the long time, that moniker was basically the businesses, was largely accepted as basically the businesses that supported the activities you would find at like the outdoor Retailer show. But it feels so much bigger now.
Like, when you, when you, when you look at who you're trying to attract to the Summit, I wonder, is it maybe another part of the industry entirely, one more focus on recreation or conservation than maybe the wholesale side of things? So big lead up and a lot to say. Who's this event for?
CJ
00:05:57.004 - 00:07:37.890
Yeah, I mean, I think you said it yourself there a little bit. You know, it's really for industry leaders.
It's for, you know, it's for, as you've mentioned before, for like CEOs and executives, but it's also for anyone that wants to learn, anyone that wants to focus on, as you mentioned, conservation sustainability policy. The way we look at it is this is a gathering of folks who want to innovate in the industry.
It's a gathering of folks that are working on the problems. Like, if you look at a lot of the guests you've had on Colin, whether that's like Luis Benitez, for example. Right.
A lot of the folks who are speakers there at the summit are really the folks who are working on things that aren't just about retail and wholesale and about the gear and the things that we buy, but also about the land and about all of the innovation that happens in and around the outdoors. That $1.1 trillion industry, there's a lot more that goes into it than the participation, the gear that goes onto the participants that do it.
Right, Right.
So really, that's the idea with this, is us holding space to bring in some folks who are leaders in their individual spaces, whether that's in the outdoors or other areas, like Reed Hastings, like you mentioned in. In the episode a couple days ago.
You know, these are folks who have built things, who have found innovation, who can inspire and educate us as people who are outdoor industry folks into thinking about things differently as we try to lead into the. Into the next generation of. Of the outdoor industry, quote, unquote.
Colin True
00:07:38.230 - 00:09:04.072
Well, I'll make sure Doug Schnitzbahn knows you've been listening to Open Container. Thank you. Thank you for supporting all of the podcasts here at Rock Fight. That was our Louis.
Luis was on his pod, but I do want to bring him back on our pod because I have questions for him. That was a tough part of producing that episode where I'm, like, in the background being like, o God, I want to jump in right now and ask questions.
But it's Doug's show, so I get what you're saying, and I kind of makes sense with the panel format and about the format, though. Like, what? So I struggle with the format. Right. And that's not just a. This isn't an outside thing, frankly.
I think when we talked about the running event and their. Their panels the day before, that was kind of one of my takeaways. Like, I don't really know, what am I supposed.
What am I supposed to take away from this? Like, if I go to this, is it just feeling inspired? Which, I mean, if that's what it's for, great.
But I kind of feel like if I'm gonna go sit in a room for a day and listen to people talk on stage, I'd like to have some level of, you know, what's. What am I supposed to do with that information? Like, almost instructional in a way.
And so when you mentioned, like, okay, like, I Said on Sunday, excuse me, Monday's episode, you know, Reed Hastings from founder of Netflix, you know, owner of Powder Mountain. You know, I look at that, I'm like, oh, there's been some Powder Mountain controversies lately. I want to hear Reed Hastings talk about that.
I know that's probably not what's going to be on the top. On the top, on the, the docket for something like the outside summit. Maybe it is. I could be wrong, but I just wouldn't.
It would, it would surprise me if it was. What do you, I mean, when I, when you look at the lineup and you look at the people, you say you want to have a 10. Like, what are the takeaways?
Like, what, what do you, what do you hope people will take away from sitting in the room as they leave and go back out into the world?
CJ
00:09:04.256 - 00:10:53.696
Yeah, it's a great question. We did survey the, the 500 or so folks who came last year. And, and you've talked about this, you know, and I've talked to retailers about this also.
I think one of the things that we have been missing in again, the quote outdoor industry is just the gather, right?
So what we got from that survey was the number one thing actually that folks who came and saw all the kind of programming you're talking about, we had panels, we had individual speakers, was they wanted more time to network, right. They wanted more time to connect with each other.
And you know, if you really break this stuff down and we spend a lot of time on the programming, on the experiences, on the entertainment for this, ultimately, the way I think about this, really having worked on it from the very beginning, is we are holding space, right? We are holding space and inviting people in.
And the hope is that out of that I truly believe this, that the best parts of outside festival and summit will not be what happens inside of the park or inside of Denver Art Museum or Denver Public Library where we're holding all this stuff, it's going to be from the connections that happen on site. So number one thing, honestly is connecting with other people who are interested in these same things and are there for the same reasons. Right.
Beyond that, there are a couple things that, you know, probably aren't immediately evident in terms of what we're trying to do. You know, slight correction on some of the, like you were saying on Monday, oh, it's a one day event, right.
So it actually starts on Thursday the 29th. And that's when registration is. There is a job fair that we've partnered up with Basecamp on. So number one thing Right.
There is, you know, if you're looking for a job or you are seeking talent, this is again, we're holding the space that kind of kicks off the whole thing.
Colin True
00:10:53.848 - 00:10:55.504
This is part of the summit.
CJ
00:10:55.552 - 00:12:09.068
This is not a larger festival and that's through Basecamp. That part is actually free. Right. So you could come to that as someone looking for. You don't have to buy the badge. Right. You could come to that.
Then, you know, you wouldn't be able to get into kind of this more, I would say, higher level event where the part of the reason that there's cost is like we're feeding everybody these. We're bringing in all these high profile people. We have these nice venues.
So that's kind of number one, is that, you know, the networking and then the actual. And this is really important. Colin, you said it. Like, what do I walk away with?
Well, maybe you walk away with a job or if you're a brand that's doing the job fair, maybe you walk away with some new talent.
We also have these incredible venues, Denver Public Library and Denver Art Museum, where, yes, we're going to have these panels that, you know, you've got 500, 600 people in a room just listening to somebody kind of talk. That's the inspiration. Then we're going to try to have these breakouts, right. Like smaller sessions.
We've also got an entire track that's the entrepreneurial track, where we're actually having a pitch competition. Right. A winner of that is going to walk away with $100,000 in media from outside and cash. Right. So, Dave, take down the notes here.
Colin True
00:12:09.124 - 00:12:11.548
We're going to, you know, if you.
Producer Dave
00:12:11.604 - 00:12:14.660
Buried the lead, I. I haven't seen that yet.
CJ
00:12:14.960 - 00:12:50.358
No, no, because we're still. It's still in development right now in terms of how we're going to bring that to market.
But the point of all of that is that we're working really hard on creating value. That if you were to come to, we assume you're going to be inspired because these are inspiring people. Right. And that you're going to get educated.
Maybe you're in marketing and you need. Part of one of the tracks is storytelling. That's another way of saying marketing effectively.
You know, maybe you're looking for ideas on how to take your brand to the next level. You're going to get that from the folks that we have, as you can tell, the 17 people we've released thus far.
Colin True
00:12:50.494 - 00:12:50.934
Right.
CJ
00:12:51.022 - 00:14:26.458
Really what we want to do is try to bring people into these smaller sessions and have Them walk away with.
The best thing you can walk away with, as I'm sure you've experienced, is you're like, I met five people who are going to have an impact on my career or my life. Right. And I think that's one of the things.
Just the overall concept for putting this together, the festival and the summit has really been to try to bring that back. That was a byproduct of coming up through the trade shows. The trade shows existed for us to do business, right.
In about, I would say, 2010 to 2016, brands in particular started realizing, I don't know if I need to spend a million, half a million, 400, whatever to go to a trade show when we can do a lot of this online. Covid kind of put the nail in that coffin and we think, oh, we're so efficient. We can do business without going to a trade show.
Along the way, we've lost, like, the culture of getting together and the culture of, like, all of that, all of that innovation that comes from people getting together and exchanging ideas. So that's really what we're trying to, you know, we are not a trade show.
The hope is down the line, frankly, that this outside festival, outside summit and outside week in Denver does start to develop into a place where that aspect of it, the gear aspect of it could be part of it as well. We hope we're not going to do that, but we would. We are trying to attract that to. To this footprint as well.
Colin True
00:14:26.594 - 00:16:04.004
Right. Well, that's. And we'll get into that. That's kind of the. The south by Southwest model. Right?
I mean, south by Southwest attracts lots of different things that aren't technically affiliated with the main south by Southwest. I think. Yeah. I'm going to pivot my criticism now.
Like, all those things sound way more interesting, frankly, than anybody you're going to put up on that stage. Right. And I think that's kind of ultimately what it came down to. And then we'll get into the price as well of like, well, here's what it is. And I.
You're right, it's not fair. Probably there's more announcements coming and that will evolve over time. Because your first point about gathering, right.
And I had that driven home with me.
I was at the outdoor Media Summit this fall, which was a great event, but every time there was a break, there was some coordinated, you know, forced, fun, sort of ice breaky type activities. And my thing is like, kind of like I've been going, you know, these events for over 20 years, man, like this is the outdoor industry.
Like, give us coffee in the morning and beer in the evening, and we will find a way to make it worth getting together, you know, and that is absolutely the value of these larger gatherings. Because even if you.
No matter what event I've ever been to and is related to the outdoor industry, I have left with a good reason to have gone simply for that. Right to your point, I met these people. I had this happen. Oh, my God, that guy. The person I emailed 62 times.
We got to see each other in person, and we're going to connect again next week. That is the stuff that always happens. And so that kind of making that a focus makes a ton of sense, I think. And it's even the, the.
The other program you're developing that's really intriguing. And like I said, like, if there's a. I get the spice of some of the names that you announced.
But let's also, like, that to me is like, yeah, that, that. That's the. Dave said you buried the headline. Like, that's almost. I would have led with that.
That sounds way more interesting than seeing some of these.
CJ
00:16:04.092 - 00:16:11.072
It's interesting because as a marketer, you do have to put something out there.
Colin True
00:16:11.176 - 00:16:12.816
You want some sizzle, right?
CJ
00:16:12.968 - 00:18:29.830
Yeah, that it attracts attention so that people say, this is legitimate, this is professional. These folks are serious people who, for one reason or another, they're going to go, so maybe we should go, too.
And that idea of gathering people is really, like, at the heart of this for me especially. I think I came up like you did. Colin went to a lot of SIA shows, a lot of OR shows. And the cultural aspect was. This was the part.
I've been in media my entire career, right.
So it was always about networking and creating conversations less for me, like touching the fabric and being like, yeah, we're going to buy some of this. Right. Like, that was happening in the background.
But I've heard from retailers, big retailers, one of the things that we've lost is the innovation that comes from those gatherings that isn't just on the front side of the wholesaler and retailer and buyer all mixing, but the stuff that kind of happens, as you said on the aside, right, like in the hotel lobby, at the bar, where these conversations about what's coming next, like, I couldn't tell you this in the booth or whatever, but you should see what we're going to do next year, right. And that those, those connections and the relationships are really what will solve problems.
Like, we've got a lot of problems in well, every industry does, but the outdoor business has a lot of problems that need to be solved. You know, sustainability, access, all of the things that are part of the sort of zeitgeist of conversation right now.
And I truly believe that unless we, we create magnetism to put people in the same space. And that's part of why the festival is to your point, Colin. Right. Like my dream.
And this is what I hope that I want you to come and join us this year. Right. You know, people come in on Thursday, they do their business at the summit. It's kind of their professional thing.
They get the T and E from their boss to come and then they hang out for the weekend. And the summit badge, by the way, gets you the entire weekend also.
And there's an exclusive area that is for the summit attendees in the MIDST of those 25, 30,000 people where you can kind of have this respite because you came for that. And then you're going to get this.
Colin True
00:18:30.210 - 00:18:38.430
They don't want the nerds mixing with the cool kids. They want to be like, oh, we'll put the summit people over here. The cool music festival kids are showing up. We can't have them mingling.
Producer Dave
00:18:40.610 - 00:18:45.310
Those lines are there for a reason. I applaud you, sir.
CJ
00:18:45.890 - 00:20:46.620
Yeah, so it's really like a four day. The summit is for the industry professional and really for the industry as a whole. And the festival is really for the enthusiast and the consumer.
And you know, one of the things that I heard from a variety of folks from both the brand leaders and then from friends like, you know, we work a lot with Jimmy Chin is that there's these moments that happen where for a marketer to see the consumer interact with their brand is like a laboratory. And that's part of the thing that came out of the festival for people that we, again, we don't get to see that in real life.
And then, you know, Jimmy explained he had a moment with Conrad Anchor and Jeremy Jones sort of just at the hotel where they were discovered by all these young filmmakers.
And all of a sudden it just turned into this kind of line of like holding court where they were just talking to these younger up and coming filmmakers who will never forget that moment when they met Jimmy and he gave them words of encouragement or advice or whatever. And you know that that's going to be part of.
There's going to be some filmmaker that's going to, down the line say, well, there was this time at the outside festival I met Jimmy Chin and he told me this and I took it to heart. Right, right.
We can't do that like through zoom calls, you know, Then that's at the, at the real heart of this whole thing of the summit and the festival is really gathering and bringing together both the industry and the enthusiast around the magnetism of big names is. That's the cheap trick. It's not cheap, by the way, but that's what we're trying to do is say, hey, there's a reason to come.
And then I think over time and if you come, Colin, you can attest to this. Over time we're going to find people are really going because they're like, oh. Because everybody's there. Okay, great.
I like this band or I'm interested to hear this particular speaker. But ultimately I'm going because Colin's going and we're going to get to hang out and talk about stuff.
Colin True
00:20:48.400 - 00:21:04.852
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Colin True
00:22:11.422 - 00:23:06.200
Once and you'll ask for more. And now back to the show. We're gonna get to the gatherings. I have questions on that as well, but let's. You just mentioned it's not cheap. Right?
And I think I remember even last year that was an immediate. I think the opening price was in that 450 range.
And so this being up significantly over that, I mean, I, I guess you kind of explained the rationale, the price tag. There's gonna be more announcements. So obviously it's a bigger event than last year.
Plus the, I'm sure increase in talent, the price that comes with some of the People we have speaking, I get potentially the, the mathematics behind why the price is where it is. But I mean, it's a, It's. You're still a new event. You're. You have to lure people in.
And that can be, like I said, my gut reaction seeing that was like, well, not, not for me. Right. That's. That sounds really expensive. So are you concerned about that? Are you concerned about the price tag?
Is that something that you're like, we're going to see how this plays out. Tell me about the price.
CJ
00:23:06.820 - 00:24:00.838
Yeah, well, first, I would say for any of your listeners who don't attend, whether it's south by Southwest or something, this is very normal pricing for a high level of programming and consideration around. You're going to get meals and so on. So it's certainly not off market, just to be clear, like in any way. So I'm not concerned.
I don't think we're like, astronomically priced, frankly. Like, we're really hoping to be able to just pay for our costs on it. Right. This is not like a profiteering kind of thing.
Also, I would say for those small brands, nonprofits, government, education, we do have a program you can apply online, you know, where you can get a ticket for $330. Right. So, for instance, for Rock Fight, you guys would be considered a small brand in terms of probably your like, gross revenue. Right.
Colin True
00:24:00.894 - 00:24:09.030
Come on, we're media. Media doesn't pay. You've done this your whole life. Like, let's go. No, we are small brand, for sure.
CJ
00:24:09.070 - 00:24:32.040
I have. Yeah. And I know, I'm familiar with that play too. Yeah. So, I mean, there is a solution to. To that. Yes, I understand. If you're a small brand.
I've been a small brand. I've had my own small companies. You know, you're not going to send. It's going to be very difficult for you to send five people at $745. Right.
Plus airfare, lodging, all of that stuff.
Colin True
00:24:32.120 - 00:24:32.504
Right.
CJ
00:24:32.592 - 00:25:36.196
And we do have an application process for those folks says, hey, you know, tell us about your company. We want you there. We want this mix those. That's a limited number of tickets, to be clear.
Because in our model, we have to sell to the bigger brands, you know, and we also have a group, you know, you can, if you have five folks in your company, where there's a group discount, all that stuff is built in. We try to be very thoughtful around it. We'll see how it goes.
I mean, I think that there's definitely, when you break down the value of what we're providing. The pricing is not off market, especially when you consider it's actually a four day event.
You get the two days of the festival in addition, which is in and of itself depending on which level of ticket you have, that's a hundred dollar ticket just for ga anyways.
So really when you start to kind of parse it out and this is part of what we're trying to encourage the industry to do is come for the whole thing, like get the full value. I go to south by every year, which is part of our creative compass. You can't buy a one day pass to South By.
Like if you're going to go for one day, you're going to pay 1300 bucks.
Colin True
00:25:36.388 - 00:25:58.420
Is south by the right comp?
Because I think you're going to have to stack up against the other industry events versus and a lot of people who maybe don't go to south by Southwest because you're pro.
I understand the mathematics might line up and you're like hey, compared to this other thing that's similar, it is less and you get all these things for it. But you know, a lot of people, probably a lot of people you might be trying to attract to it aren't going to have that frame of reference.
CJ
00:25:59.320 - 00:26:51.598
Yeah. I mean part of what we are trying to do here is cross pollinate. Right. I mean if you even look at the speakers. Right.
Like sure, we've got Robin speaking, we've got Kent speaking, we've got folks from in the industry and then we've got people from outside the industry. And I, and I really believe that's part of what is going to help us really innovate is by not just being myopic in our own sort of silo.
And there's a cost to that. There's a cost to bringing those folks in.
And again, we have tried to create a solution so that small companies, nonprofits, government or education do have an avenue to apply to get a ticket that is perhaps more affordable in terms of other industry comps. I don't really think there's a comp for us within the industry. Certainly no one's doing this at the scale that we are around.
The combination of industry and consumer together. If you look at all of them.
Colin True
00:26:51.644 - 00:26:56.554
You didn't see the String brand at the Sun Bum booth at or last year, man. It was off the chain.
CJ
00:26:56.682 - 00:28:25.956
Was it pretty awesome? No, I mean it's a different, we started with that. The trade show is a different thing. Right, right. And it's by definition it's kind of closed.
Like it's not meant to bring in someone who's maybe like I'm looking.
I mean I just met with a woman this morning who is coming from an entirely different industry and is looking to work and one that by the way would be like, you would think like, oh, they're in New York or whatever, right. And they are looking to work in this industry.
So again, we're trying to cross pollinate, we're trying to open up and say welcome in others that might have a different perspective, a different background and bring the outdoor industry and all of our history to bear and kind of have this cross pollination that happens. So I mean, I understand it. I understand the question about wow, that's like, it's not a cheap ticket. It's not meant to be a cheap ticket.
Conversely, the festival is actually is designed to be very accessible at the.
I mean if you look at music events or any event, I mean just go to the movies, go to AMC with two other people and it's going to be the same price as a two day, you know, festival that we have, right?
Colin True
00:28:26.028 - 00:29:13.356
No, and that's, I think I even opened on Monday. Like I think the music festival makes a ton of sense. Going away from trade makes a ton of sense.
I love that especially you know, given it's the outside brand putting it on. But when I'm just putting my industry hat on, and this isn't insulting this, I'm not interested in the music festival.
I'm not interested in any music festival. Well, that's not true. If there was like a, like punk and drub looks pretty good, I'd probably go see that. But you know, or you know, but.
And Warp tour is coming back. But anyway, bottom line is line up all my favorite bands and put them in a city I have to fly to. I'm not gonna fly to it.
It's just not like what I'm interested in. So that's why I was like, is there an opportunity to have, have the 250 sort of summit only deal? Because that's way more interesting to me.
Like, okay, what you're describing, like, yeah, I want to check out the summit. Oh, there's the stage. Cool. Have fun at the music festival, guys. I'm going to fly home now. You know what I mean?
CJ
00:29:13.508 - 00:29:38.568
Well, I mean I would say that the festival itself, you know, the music again is there to create world class entertainment and to bring in again in the middle of a major metro area. I would say that last year's event for anyone that was.
There was probably the most diverse outdoor industry event I have ever in my 30 years of doing this scene. Right.
Colin True
00:29:38.624 - 00:29:42.632
I believe you on that. How could it not be? In a lot of ways, right?
CJ
00:29:42.656 - 00:30:31.458
And that is a huge part of what we're trying to do.
But then if you turned around, okay, fjallraven, North Face, climbing walls, the travel companies, I can almost guarantee you, Colin, if you went and you were like, well, I'm not here for the music. I'm here for the industry. I'm here for the brands. I'm here for the marketing that you're gonna meet people.
And again, the whole idea is that Denver becomes the place that the industry gathers. I mean, for instance, like, POW's doing their board meeting on Monday. Atta.
Atta, the adventure travel Writers association, is doing their event in Denver during the same period. Right?
Colin True
00:30:31.514 - 00:30:33.666
Yeah. This is the South By Model that's coming up. Right.
CJ
00:30:33.738 - 00:30:34.850
Trout Fest is happening. Right?
Colin True
00:30:34.890 - 00:30:36.306
Showing up while this is happening.
CJ
00:30:36.418 - 00:31:39.456
That's right. You're starting to see, like, there's going to be another climbing wall on the 16th Street Mall outside of the gates. Right.
There's an event called Trout Fest that we're partnering with. It's up at Coors Field. It's just about a mile away.
Downtown is going to start to come alive with the outdoor industry, a whole bunch of different facets.
And that's, again, the south by Model is that because the gathering itself sort of creates its own momentum of folks in the outdoor industry saying, and again, we are trying. We're working on trying to attract that gear expo aspect that's just not outsides. We're not interested in running a trade show. Right.
We're trying to create the space and hold the space so that others could benefit from 30,000 people coming to a concert. And, oh, well, I'm also going to go to this thing or I'm going to check out this other symposium.
And that is starting to happen even faster than we had anticipated, honestly.
Colin True
00:31:39.568 - 00:32:04.462
No, that's intriguing. Again, the sort of establishing the model and then seeing who kind of filters in around it. Kind of like what happens at south by is that's.
That's really intriguing. And in fact, the fact that it's happening in year two is impressive. You should. Guys should definitely pat yourselves on the back for that.
I guess the. The last thing that would sort of. I'm curious about is, is the timing.
This is a big issue on the kind of more, you know, human power trade side of things, because June is packed.
CJ
00:32:04.526 - 00:32:04.750
Right.
Colin True
00:32:04.790 - 00:32:41.006
That was obviously the premise of sort of my.
My pushback in a way, like, if nothing's going on in June and you guys are doing this, it'd probably be like, well, it'd be pretty hard for me to not show up. Right. It's kind of like, how could I go experience this?
But when you have, especially from a wholesale retail point of view, everything that's happening in June, which was the push back on both outdoor retailer and Switchback and the retailers, where are we supposed to show up and people who have work to do at a lot of these events is that, you know, obviously you're thinking probably bigger than just that world, but it does seem to be limited in a way that some people who maybe would want to come to the outside festival, well, they're simply not going to be able to.
CJ
00:32:41.138 - 00:32:47.090
Yeah, I mean, it's a challenge for sure. There is no perfect time.
Colin True
00:32:48.030 - 00:32:49.650
August is pretty good, man.
CJ
00:32:50.030 - 00:33:56.550
Well, it's good for some and not good for others, and it's good for some aspects of, again, if you were doing a trade show, 100%. And at the same time, I mean, just not to get into the weeds.
But navigating the city and the times that are available for this park is like, there's only a couple times that are not, frankly, that are not spoken for. And we had to work really hard even to get the park at the time that we have it. I'll tell you what the positive sides are from how we see it.
We see that this date right after Memorial Day at the kickoff of summer is really good from the perspective of one of the things that we're trying to do, again to use that south by Southwest model, is we want this to be the place that people announce things, brands announce things.
And the beginning of the summer is much better to talk about things that are happening for the summer than the end of the summer when you're going to. Actually, the outdoor business starts to talk about winter.
Colin True
00:33:56.710 - 00:33:57.286
Yeah.
CJ
00:33:57.398 - 00:35:19.306
You know, at the end of the summer, you're talking like, marketing budgets. Everything is shifting now towards messaging that is going into winter.
So that actually doesn't work very well on a consumer, any sort of consumer facing, you know, the brands are like, well, we're going to be marketing to, you know, tens of thousands of people. And really, like, what we're doing back at the shop is starting to talk about the winter line in one way or another.
And so it doesn't line up perfectly from that perspective, even for retail, like, on the consumer side.
Totally get it from the fact that it's crowded between Switchback and Goa and GoPro games and, you know, Mountain games, I should say, you know, all of those things do fall right in that first part of June. I will get a little bit prickly for a minute and say, wah, wah. Like, I traveled.
I was on the road for 15 years as, you know, someone who went to all these things in the winter that were right after one another and it was part of the game. You know, it's really hard now. I'm older, have a family. Really difficult to do that. I get it.
But also, you know, it's consolidated versus having to go every month to a different thing. So again, it's like, you know, I shouldn't say wow, wow. Like, I get it.
Colin True
00:35:19.378 - 00:36:30.864
No, man. No, you're not wrong. I mean, look, listen. No, this is kind of how I'm. It's interesting why having.
And this is why I'm really glad you came on because we only know what we know. There's this long, you know, history of how we do events. And by the way, the how we do events, what's the consensus of how we do events?
Like, you talk to the show directors of the big shows, you know, look, oh, we go off of surveys. Okay, does that mean we're going with the 18% that agreed for some on something?
Everybody to your point back of like, why the national trade show scene started to kind of slow down a little bit before COVID and everything happened because it was always so much infighting around it and to demonstrate that you can do something different. I mean, I'm not trying to.
It's not a one for one comparison, but frankly, us, what we're doing at rockflight, like, saying, hey, we can have some level of discourse and criticism on a media level. We hear it a lot from the folks in the outdoor industry, like, well, you can't do that. You can't say that about a brand.
Like, they'll never advertise with you. It's like, well, actually, yeah, they will if we have a good enough audience.
And by the way, the audience is demanding this, but we also kind of have to teach them along the way about how this is going to work. And so for in year two, you know, you're still kind of in that. Like, guys like me, like, yeah, man, I don't know about this, you know, because I.
We've never done it. There's never been anything like this before.
CJ
00:36:30.952 - 00:38:14.832
I mean, 100%. That's why I appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation with you is that, you know, I think For Outside writ large. You know, there's a.
We're working on a lot of things that are about the future here. And really, in order to get trust, you got to have some understanding first.
And, you know, that's part of what this event is all about for us and for me is, is to create more understanding about Outside's leadership position in the industry. And that ultimately will lead to more trust. And if people trust this event and this gathering, then you know it's going to be successful like that.
So that's like essential is to have the industry and the consumer understand what we're trying to do on one level. And you know, back to the date question, you know, on that level of understanding, there's no great date.
We've gone to really a lot of lengths to stay off of anybody. Right. So, yes, it's the first week and the second week and the third week and the fourth week of June all have stuff happening, but we didn't land.
We purposefully tried to stay off of other. To be really honest, I would prefer to be later in June because thunderstorms, as you mentioned, are less prevalent the further you go.
But really like the sweet spot in terms of not taking the wind out of anyone else's sails and giving people a direct conflict was this weekend. There is nothing else on the first weekend of June at this stage. Then yes, second and third and so on.
And if you were a young person, that'd be pretty awesome. Be on the road for all of June and go to all of these things.
Colin True
00:38:15.016 - 00:38:17.616
Oh, tech rep Colin would have loved it.
Producer Dave
00:38:17.768 - 00:38:50.894
Let me just jump in there just real quick though. I think, I think as being of folks of our certain age and background and you can't say that the travel and the marketing reality today is the same.
There aren't the budgets, there aren't the staffs. Right. We have seen consolidation. We have seen shedding of jobs, we have seen shedding of marketing budgets.
I just don't see anybody who travels like we used to. Right. And so regardless of where those are. And so that's just one thing. I think that it's just that's got.
Colin True
00:38:50.902 - 00:38:56.366
To be the downturn of the industry the last few years too. You wonder that will return is if the industries gets healthier, don't you think?
Producer Dave
00:38:56.438 - 00:39:17.740
I don't know. I don't know.
Again, part of, you know, Covid showed a lot, so I don't know if some of that stuff comes back in that same way, but I guess it's one of those things you're trying to make, you're trying to hit all of these, you're trying to hit every perspective at once and it's impossible to do. But it is just another reality of McMahon. It's just not the same world anymore, is it?
CJ
00:39:18.520 - 00:40:43.484
I totally hear that. And if you're going to have, whether it's all in June or it's in June, July and August, the budget's the same.
In fact, one of the things that we're really trying to do here is come to Denver, do your thing in Denver because it's one plane ticket. And actually the lodging in Denver is not that crazy in terms of staying for a few nights.
So, you know, that's part of the idea is like more consolidation around again, the south by Southwest kind of model and have it be a one stop shop. I mean for some people this year it really is going to be that.
If you were atta like Ada, those folks are coming, doing their thing and they're going to get the festival and the summit on the one plane ticket. I get it. I mean you're going to. Every brand, every professional has to make decisions on what they can justify.
I think if you're looking to go to a place where you're really going to be lit up on innovation, education, networking, then this is the place to go. If your boss says, hey, you know what? We do need to see growth, we're trying to grow.
You need to go out and get some new ideas and bring those ideas back here, then this is the place to go. If you're going again to feel the textile, to see the product and talk about your order, not the place to go, you know, and that's.
That could be two different jobs also. Right, right.
Producer Dave
00:40:43.572 - 00:40:57.480
So yeah, that was great because I was gonna ask you, what's your pitch to a brand, a classic outdoor brand? How do I get them to send multiple people to the event? I think you spelled it out there pretty good.
CJ
00:40:57.780 - 00:42:27.576
Education is something I've, I mean again, like none of these things, I know it's like a black box, you know, but none of these things have been done like whimsically. We have a huge audience that we utilize as a bit of a litmus.
We've got 400 employees here who are all part of the outdoor industry and all of these moves are kind of in consideration of that. And one of the things we've heard is education. As much as there's tons of online education, there's 50 different platforms you could get education.
The specific education around marketing or sustainability or Access and diversity in the outdoor industry like it exists. But what we're bringing here I think is a higher level.
And then also you walk away from that and you bump into somebody that you haven't met that's at another company and you can exchange ideas and then ideally you exchange those ideas over the course of many days and then you know, at the end of it you're at a concert with, with a new friend.
And it certainly, in my experience, having spent a lot of time in the ski industry, in particular X Games, Sia, all of the ski competitions, you know, there was a lot of my career was built off of the relationships that came from those times. That was also like we were having fun, you know. And so I hope that that's part of what happens here is people go.
Not only do I have to go, I really want to go because it's going to be a blast and I'm going to get to see people maybe I haven't seen in a while or some friends that I met last year.
Colin True
00:42:27.758 - 00:43:49.650
No, and David and I were talking about when we were leaving Tre.
I think, you know, as you sort of kind of put it in the context of the larger sort of event space for the, I mean back to my original question about like who in the outdoor industry, the, the whole outdoor industry. I think you have. It's ultimately more events is really what we need versus fewer. Everybody's just looking for the silver bullet.
How do we get outdoor back to the outdoor retailer we used to have. When to your point earlier, no one really liked that as a full on solution. It was kind of like what we got.
I think, you know, it sounds like, you know, switchback is obviously doing well. They're attracting a lot of brands.
Might have been an ad at the front of this episode talking about it at the same time like that's a lot of pent up demand. We'll see how that goes.
And there's always, and I think you need a North Star sort of trade show like that, you need a vibe setting trade show like that. But then there's also all the other events in June.
If I'm a retail owner and I have to am a GOA account, well, you know I'm going to connect and if that's my budget for travel then maybe that's the show I go to. But to your point, if there's other folks in the, in the brand at the retailer, someone on the retail floor like hey we want to go.
If you go do something else like well we'll send you to the summit, you know, and then you go to Denver while I go to connect. And I think it's. People may have to get out of the habit of looking for that silver bullet event for the industry.
And it's like this is just now creating more options, which creates more learning and more, you know, more, more of these gatherings and more networking. And isn't that ultimately a good thing? Right?
CJ
00:43:49.770 - 00:44:24.786
Yeah. I mean, we think it's necessary that we've lost a step on this stuff.
Maybe it's more of the marketer, more of the brand person, more of the executive, more of the person who's trying to break into the industry. The young person. I mean, like the story I told you about Jimmy as a young person going. And I think Switchback's doing a great job, by the way.
I think that they are, you know, they're picking up the mantle of what the industry needs in that area and they really understand their business to the point of like, that's not the business that we want to be in.
Colin True
00:44:24.938 - 00:44:25.442
Right.
CJ
00:44:25.546 - 00:45:38.490
I think that if you're a young person who's trying to break into this business, you know, where do you do that now? You know, where do you go and build these connections?
And that's part of what we're trying to build a path for here is like, you got the job fair on Thursday. You got some really high level education, innovation, growth mindset, people who are kind of titans in their different areas.
And then you've got a really great time, meaning a festival of all the brands exhibiting what they're trying to do, really from a values and brand perspective. Right. Like who is the North Face? Okay. You'll see they're going to exhibit not their product as much as their values and who they are. Right.
And that's what the festival really. So if you think about that its entirety, like, yeah, if your job is to. Is to.
You're in product specifically, like you said, you got to go to Switchback and you got to go to some of these trade shows.
If your job is to try to figure out how to grow a brand with an audience and a consumer, I think you're going to find a lot of value from watching the consumer, tens of thousands of them, interact with brands and one another in a diverse metro area and coming out of the summit.
Colin True
00:45:38.570 - 00:45:39.996
With other marketers attending.
CJ
00:45:40.178 - 00:45:49.400
Right. And you know, like Reed Hastings, I think one of the things you said, Colin, was, well, why do I want to listen to Reed Hastings? Right.
Well, I'll tell you. I mean, I said there's Certain things.
Colin True
00:45:49.440 - 00:45:52.968
I want to hear from Reed Hastings that I don't think he's going to say at your event.
CJ
00:45:53.104 - 00:46:38.292
But if you are as someone who does, you know, you have to market your show here. And the way we consume media has been incredibly influenced by this one human being who's going to be on stage talking about.
He's one, he's got a connection to the outdoors. Right. He's a skier. He's Powder Mountain's owner. And two, he has, you know, he shaped how we consume video for an entire generation.
And that's a huge part of our industry too. Right. So I think there's a lot to, you know, listening to somebody like that who actually is looking at it on.
It's not as a total outsider because they participate and saying, here's what I think about your business. Right. Who's built one of the most successful businesses. You know, don't forget, I also know.
Colin True
00:46:38.316 - 00:46:45.220
The guy who said that resort skiing isn't actually an outdoor sport. So. Right. I gotta bring Reed down a notch. Okay. Like it's.
Producer Dave
00:46:46.440 - 00:46:47.280
I forgot about that.
CJ
00:46:47.320 - 00:46:50.340
I was doing some resort skiing. It felt, it felt like it was outdoors.
Colin True
00:46:51.880 - 00:46:53.296
Did they do. These are a backcountry segment.
Producer Dave
00:46:53.328 - 00:46:56.208
That's an early episode. That's an early episode where he takes.
Colin True
00:46:56.304 - 00:47:11.344
It's like the first episode. But no, man, I get it. And again, this is why I'm really glad you came on.
And everyone should just listen for the rock fight, you know, Summit only $200 special that you'll be announcing like next week, I think. Right? That's what we're gonna.
Producer Dave
00:47:11.392 - 00:47:12.800
For junior executives.
Colin True
00:47:12.960 - 00:47:21.180
I'll be there handing out crayon drawn badges. We'll save a little money, right? We'll just like, you know, just. You get five minutes with Reed and then you gotta leave. That's.
That's what we're doing.
CJ
00:47:21.800 - 00:47:33.232
3:30. I'll meet you at 3:30. 330. Then you gotta print badges, you gotta apply, put, put. You listen to it on the rock fight in the, in the notes, and you'll.
That's a great idea. Yeah.
Colin True
00:47:33.296 - 00:47:59.196
That would be amazing. Hey, that's all I got. I think this has been great. You know, I don't want to open the door to anything else.
And I'm gonna like ping you on other things I've talked about we you back on in the future to maybe hit a few other other things we were talking about. But this has been great to learn more about it. It's great to hear, you know, just this conversation around events Obviously, people care about it.
A lot of people say to me, like, oh, we don't care anymore. I'm like, yeah, but you do. Everybody wants to talk about events when it comes to the outdoors, so really appreciate you coming on and clarifying it.
CJ
00:47:59.268 - 00:49:17.956
I appreciate it, too. And, you know, I'll leave you with a.
I did go to another sort of event here in Denver that was for affiliate kind of marketing and stuff a couple weeks ago.
And, you know, one of the things that they asked some, the panels and the audience was, you know, what are you doing this year from a marketing perspective? And a lot of the answers were like, we're leaning into. In real life, we're leaning into events.
And I think that's a combination of the fatigue around just pumping 80% of your budget into Facebook. But also it's like a little bit of a, I think, a response to what happened over Covid and us losing some of the human connection and seeing. Oh, shit.
Actually, that was kind of important, right? Like to be with somebody and it's better than Zoom. Right, Right. So I'm excited about that. Being in the position that we're in, I'm in.
It's really a privilege to be building something at this scale that I really hope this thing outlives me and can be something that is that global gathering. Like, that is the vision and that's what we're trying to bring to life. May 31 through June 1 for the festival May 30.
I was about to ask you to plug it.
Colin True
00:49:18.028 - 00:49:18.960
Yeah, do it.
CJ
00:49:20.140 - 00:49:23.684
Registration is on May 29th, Denver, Colorado.
Colin True
00:49:23.812 - 00:49:30.660
All right, well. And get those other things going on at the Sum it up on the website so people can see that. That's really interesting to hear about.
Really excited to hear about that.
CJ
00:49:30.780 - 00:49:42.004
Yeah, there will be investors. That's another thing just for your listeners.
If you're building a company that is adjacent to the outdoors, that could be wearable tech, that could be an actual product, it could be a physical product, it could be a travel product, it.
Colin True
00:49:42.012 - 00:49:43.696
Could be the podcast you're listening. Listening to.
CJ
00:49:43.848 - 00:50:27.250
Yeah, you know, like, there's going to be investors and founders there and we. That's part of, you know, you started with that column, like, what could I get out of it?
Like, for those folks connecting with other founders who have. Who have created businesses, exited those businesses, know sort of the game there and investors who are looking for innovative things to invest in.
Like, that's going to be part of what we hope this thing is moving forward where people are now, you know, if you use the south by model. Airbnb announced it. South By Twitter announced at South By. You know that talent broke out at South By. That's what we really want to build for this.
For this industry is a place where it's like if you got a new idea, this is where you gotta be.
Colin True
00:50:27.870 - 00:50:36.438
Right on, man. Well, listen, thank you so much, C.J. for coming on. Excited to talk to you again. Maybe we'll see end of May. We'll see. We'll see how it plays out.
CJ
00:50:36.494 - 00:50:47.854
Hey, man, you and I can circle back, but I would like to see you there for sure. I know you're saying I wouldn't go to a concert, but it's more than a concert. I think there'll be some people there you'd be interested in the show.
Colin True
00:50:47.862 - 00:50:56.398
You get less than Jake on the bill. I'll be there. All right. Reach out. Get my guys. Krista makes who wrote the Rock Fight theme song. Come on, get my guys on the bill.
CJ
00:50:56.454 - 00:51:05.490
I know. I can hear you guys are into music. You got a new tune all the time, right? He's leading culture here on the Rock Fight and Outside festival.
Colin True
00:51:06.470 - 00:51:08.580
Hey, man, appreciate you coming on. Thanks so much.
CJ
00:51:08.750 - 00:51:10.264
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Colin True
00:51:10.432 - 00:51:38.802
All right, that's the show for today. What are your thoughts?
Send your feedback on this and every episode of the rock fight to myrockflightmail.com the Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight LLC. Our producer today was David Karstadt. Art direction by Sarah Gensert. I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening and here to take us out.
It's the one guy who should be playing the outside festival. Come on, cj, get him on the bill. It's Chris Dmakes and he's going to play for you right now. The Rock Fight Fight song will see you next time.
Rock Fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:51:38.866 - 00:52:39.310
Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth Slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree we talk about human powered outdoor activities and big bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture, music, the latest movie reviews ideas that aim for the head this is where we speak our truth this is where we speak our truth Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Welcome to the rock flight Rock Fight. Rock fight welcome to the Rock Fight Rock Fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
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