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Today on THE ROCK FIGHT (an outdoor podcast that aims for the head) Colin starts the show by giving his thoughts on Outside Inc launching their own social media platform and offers why he thinks Outside keeps making these bizarre strategic decisions (01:03).
Then he and Producer Dave talk about the following headlines to come out of the outdoor industry last week:
Rossignol has launched a new line of trail running shoes to better compete in spring and summer. Is Sierra just sitting there licking their chops? (23:40)
eVent released two new technologies that are PFAS free. Is this too little too late? (29:22)
Solo Stove goes back to Snoop and welcomes Warren G for their new marketing campaign. Where's the justice for their old CEO? (35:22)
Our parting shots! Colin wants to know what happened to music videos and Producer Dave gives props to an Oregon park. (39:45)
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Episode Transcript
Colin (00:00):
Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth, slays sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True. It's Monday, it's Labor Day, and I hope you're enjoying your holiday weekend. Today we'll talk about Ro Mill's new running shoe event's, new P FFA s, free products, solo stove, bringing back Snoop and all that after. What I have to say about outside, again, I have to talk about outside. But before we get to that, we've got a few housekeeping items. Please follow and rate the rock fight wherever you're listening on any podcast app, leave us that five star rating and click that follow button. If you like the rock fight, you'll definitely like gear and beer, so please check out my other podcast on the Rock Fight Podcast network. That's called Gear and Beer. You can find that on the app you're using right now. Lastly, we want to hear from you. Send us your feedback by sending an email to my rock fight@gmail.com or reaching out on the socials where we can be found as Rock Fight Co. And all right, let's start the show.
(01:02):
So sometimes things enter the outdoor news cycle that I just have to talk about, and the biggest repeat offender of who is making the news that I also need to comment on is outside this show doesn't exist so that I can settle scores or so that I can be used as a vehicle to blindly go after anyone in particular. I just want to make this clear. I simply go where my opinions on the moves made in the outdoor industry lead me and any of the opinions you hear me spout on this show come from my years of experience in the outdoor industry and trying to put myself in the shoes of the decision makers behind the topic I'm weighing on. It's like why we don't talk just about blindly about, oh, there was layoffs at this one brand or something like that. It's like, yeah, things happen in business, but if there's a brand decision that's made or something that kind of makes me curious, that's what you're going to hear on the rock fight.
(01:52):
And it's also why I am open to others coming on the rock fight to push back or even prove me wrong. This is a curious person show. And before I really get started here, let me say on the outset that there is an open invitation to the leadership team at outside, particularly Robin Thurston, their CEO to come on the show so we can talk about what outside is up to and where it is going. It's an important part of the outdoor community and the outdoor industry, and I really would like to have that conversation. Now that I've said all of that this past week there were a couple of big stories that come out of Outside's Camp this past Friday. They announced that they were acquiring the suite of map, my products, the map, my fitness map, my run, et cetera from Under Armour and Robin Thurston got his start as co-founder of Map My Run and Map My Ride.
(02:42):
So I'm sure that was a great moment for him to get his properties back under his watch. And I'll touch on a few things that come to mind with this acquisition in a minute. But for the most part, there's nothing really earth shattering here. This type of acquisition is in line with other recent acquisitions outside has made, and we'll give them a competitor to Strava and other fitness apps inside of their grouping of tech products. Now the other story that came out last week, and the one I really want to dig into was the announcement on Wednesday that outside is launching a community-based social platform that is now integrated into their website and apps. And there's, when I look at all this, there's a little Donald Trump and how outside talks about themselves, right? Because they really seem to have convinced themselves that gobbling up almost every relevant outdoor media title along with Gaia and Trail Forks and creating a streaming service and an AI chatbot and a music festival and then mashing them all together is just the gift that keeps giving to outdoorsy people everywhere.
(03:39):
You can just sort of hear Trump pitching this thing like, oh, we're going to have the biggest outdoor website. It's going to be the best. Everyone loves our outdoor products. They all love it because the lesson throughout all of what outside has tried to do over the past few years seems to be everyone wants this, so we're going to give it to you. And the problem being that my most consistent response to almost everything they've done has been who is asking for this and this new social platform is probably the best example of this. So I took my first look at the platform on Gaia, on the Gaia app this past weekend, and if you open Gaia and click the home button, the home icon at the bottom of the app, you're taken to a new social feed. It's available on their website as well outside's website, which when you get there, it looks like Facebook only.
(04:26):
It's content only from outside's titles. So I'm actually going to open it up and see what's on here right now. So if you go there, I'm on Gaia, and first it tries to give you recommended authors. So you see a lot of folks you write for outside and then you see, oh, there's an article from their run site. And then there's a Brendan Leonard drawing from something he must have done from them in the past, Erica Zao who's been on Gear and Beer and she wrote something for backpacker and she has a featured thing here. If you go through, it looks a lot like common, like a Facebook page, but it's all outside content and you can like comment and it's what you would expect. It's what we've been conditioned to look at through social media over the past few years. And before I get into the why of it all, there's been some backlash as evidenced by a very entertaining and spicy Reddit thread over on Gaia's Reddit page because in order to integrate this new platform outside has had to change their privacy terms.
(05:22):
And as such, when you log into gema, you have to accept this new set of terms, which evidently takes private users and makes them public unless they then change the settings on their own. And I'll save you the particular comments, but there are a lot of pissed off Gaia users and seemingly one outside employee who is trying desperately to control the damage. I'll leave it up to you if you think their efforts are successful or not if you want to go check it out. But this right there is ultimately the point I want to get to because the justification for the terms update is because Gaia is part of the larger outside network. They were acquired by outside, they're part of, and now this network has launched its new social platform. So some changes have had to be made. And the problem lies in the assumption that anyone wants this network.
(06:08):
I can count multiple examples of people in my life who keep an outside account simply so they can access Gaia. It's an app they love and using their adventures, our co-host on the show, Justin Hausman, he's one of those people. Now, someone may push back and say, Hey Colin, how do you know people don't want this social platform? And my response is because we've been through this already. When social media started its rise in the late two thousands, there was chatter about how brands or companies would look to develop their own social platforms. Marketing campaigns were developed with custom message boards intended for consumers to weigh in on a brand or a product. I was actually part of a marketing team doing a product launch from 2008 to 2009, and we talked about having a Facebook style interface to get enthusiasts for this product to join in and create a community.
(06:55):
And then Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, they all became the establishment and we sort of collectively agreed that everyone would just use their platforms for these things rather than create individual ones all over the place. So how in 2024 did anyone at outside think, you know what we need? We need our own social media platform. That's what our customers really want. And as I say that, I'm trying to picture the faces of the employees tasked with bringing this thing to life and confirming multiple times internally going like, Hey, so we're building an outside Facebook and this isn't really the first time that outside has done something like this. There's a precedent here because they have outside watch, which is their own streaming platform outside wants so hard to believe that active people want all of this from them, that they can be the go-to place for everyone's needs, but they're not really recognizing the silos that a lot of outdoorsy people operate in.
(07:53):
They have a better chance honestly of being successful with some of these initiatives if they did it for one singular sport than trying to make it crossover with fitness, running, hiking, backpacking, climbing, paddling, skiing, athletics, the Olympics, everything else that they cover. And the last thing I want to mention here is why I think this keeps happening. So think about some of the things we've gotten from outside over the past few years. We had the failed NFT experiment recently just earlier this year. We had the outside show which was available on the A four mentioned outside watch. It lasted a few months, it's now canceled. And by the way, one of their hosts is gone from outside. We had scout the AI bot I guess technically that still exists, haven't heard anyone mention anything about that since it launched earlier this year and now they have their own social platform.
(08:39):
I think there's an argument to be made that outside should be applauded for their, I mean who else is working to bring originality to outdoor media? But the problem with that is there is no precedent for why any of these things that they have tried or are trying will work. There's no reason why they should stop trying either because they remain in demand outside remains at the top of the outdoor mountain. Pardon the expression when it comes to coverage in our space. Talk to any PR professional or marketer at most outdoor brands and the number one request they get from media coverage is placement in the outside buyer's guide. I think their history and a lack of real competition has provided them a particularly long leash to continue to pursue these bizarre initiatives. And one would think that the bill will come due at some point and look, maybe I'm wrong and they're cashing big checks with all of these initiatives.
(09:32):
And to that I say again, please someone from outside come on the show because I know I'm not the only one with these questions for now outside has map my run map my ride map, my walk map, my fitness to integrate alongside Gaia and also Trail Forks. Current users on those platforms will be forced into the outside ecosystem I'm sure and if they want to keep using those products in ecosystem and it's largely meant diminish versions of the names they still use. So Hey Dave, I'm curious what you think about this. I want to pull you in here starting with the social platform aspect. I mean take their side for a second. What am I missing? Is there an upside here that is going over my head?
Producer Dave (10:10):
Well, we'll get in line for that Colin, but yeah, wow, there's a lot to unpack in this kind of topic for sure. Let's start with just the idea of the brief for your social network and I can see why that is super alluring, right? You are going to build a walled garden that directly engages all of your customers and they can talk to you. You're going to get all that data that you're going to own and you're going to get the insights from it. It's a massive loyalty program to continue to market to and recycle and all of that CPM that you can deliver to advertisers. I mean, like I said, it just checks all the boxes out there for what you're trying to build, especially as a media organization, but just any kind of marketer is going to be looking at that as just the holy grail. Who wouldn't want these?
(11:12):
But in terms of an actual network and we'll get to the, maybe it's the same time we'll get to the aspect of look, they have an infusion of tech-minded people into that organization and so they are striving to bring technical products or tech products that help deliver their content. I'm all supportive of that and that's going to take a lot of different swipes. So I totally see that and I think they should continue the idea of a social network. Those probably a bridge too far in that. I mean like you said, we've been through this era of everybody trying to build their own version for all of those reasons, but there was a little brand called Google that didn't do well with this Apple Ping Plus and Ping didn't do well with this. It's there's a lot to bite once you start getting into that type of requirement to first off, the cost of developing a network and maintaining it is going to be crazy. The continual user engagement, I mean again, they have their ecosystem they can build, but you've got to retain users and continually at a much more hyper speed than even just a media site would, right? And then you've got that sustained continued value that you've got to keep them coming back.
(12:33):
We're going to park that discussion a little bit later. I think that's at the heart of what we're talking about. Not the vehicle to which people engage, but what it is that they're actually engaging.
Colin (12:42):
And am I missing something in terms of another, is there another way to gauge success here? Is there something just by doing this that is beneficial? Because I want to be fair, I'm being pretty hard on these guys and I have been because I'm just getting more and more frustrated that I can't get the answers that I'm looking for probably. But I look at something like last year meta Instagram launches threads basically to bring a new social media platform to compete against Twitter. And it now seems like it's getting some momentum mostly though because of the missteps by the owner of Twitter. But the point is that was a product by somebody who already has expertise in the space and has the resources to deploy against it to grow it. I can't imagine that that's what outside's going to do. So is there another way this is successful?
Producer Dave (13:29):
Yeah, I mean, hey, I think we can't be judging this against a true pure form social platform like Threads is trying to be where that is purely just the pipeline and let people talk about anything in the world they want to. My sense is this is really more of a content pushing device to engage people's conversations as long as they're conversing about things that are in outside properties. So it is more of a niche and it becomes, to me now, this is more of a community platform play. And if that's what this is, then that's certainly makes more sense. Look at Nike plus. Nike Plus is essentially a community play, not so much a social media taking all of the things that Nike does and are interested in and years of development. Nike takes time, but does it
Colin (14:12):
Still exist? Does Nike Plus still exists?
Producer Dave (14:15):
I believe so. What
Colin (14:16):
Kind of engagement does it get?
Producer Dave (14:18):
Probably more than we do.
Colin (14:23):
Well, I mean maybe that's the answer I'm looking for. Maybe that's the level of engagement outside wants to get here,
Producer Dave (14:28):
Right? And anything that you're going to do that's going to bring your audience together is a good thing. Now is the ROI there in terms of what they're investing in? I certainly don't know that, but look, Lululemon has their sweat life. Red Bull started Connect 10 years ago to build a social network. This is another, this is a great example actually. They have an engaged user. They've got all this great content going to build a social network. They too abandoned that, right? Because that's a crazy notion. And so what they did is they leaned into the existing platforms and did really well at what they do on those platforms, which is I think the page that outside would want to take a look at. And secondly, they also pivoted this desire for this closed network into their TV property into Red Bull tv, which is now an incredible source. But I can go watch that on YouTube. I can go to their website. But it is the content, and this is where I was coming back from before, the focus on all of these technical solutions is still getting away from the what is the unique stories being told by these outside properties and that brand, they're central to their brand is storytelling, not tech delivery. And it seems like we're getting a little bit mixed into those things.
Colin (15:45):
And I guess that's kind of what I get at. I guess you can make a case on paper about why having your own streaming service, having your own social media platform, and I'm sure there's some sort of data ownership things and point, there's benefits you can point to, but there's also consumer behavior about how people now use social media mean you look at, again, you just use the Hollywood example. Sony Pictures doesn't have a streaming service for their movie trailers. They put them on YouTube if they want to start a discussion with interested people in movies, they would go to Twitter or Facebook. They're not saying, you know what, we should develop the Sony community platform. Maybe they did, but it's not going to have the same level of engagement.
Producer Dave (16:27):
Well, Pepsi and Coke both tried to also build their own social networks. Of course they did. I mean I can't imagine why those weren't successful.
Colin (16:35):
Exactly. People do want variety because we're all not one thing too if I'd rather go on Facebook I suppose and have outdoor conversations, but then also have my local towns restaurant scene conversations too,
Producer Dave (16:49):
Right? And we can talk about those things we read in the outside network of titles. But yeah, I think that's where this comes down to. So if I'm tasked with building an integrated multi-platform domination through current user engagement, and right now it does feel more like they're kind of throwing it at the whiteboard and seeing what sticks, which again, I'm not opposed to that in any kind of brand building exercise. You got to kind of fail harder I think is wide Kennedy,
Colin (17:20):
But they're doing that with beloved titles, not this platform, but all of their properties came with a specific individual audience that now have to acquiesce to the whims of outside.
Producer Dave (17:32):
And there's two ways to do that. Building the backend efficiencies and the network structure totally in on that. You've got to be able to do that. It's the editorial tone and voice which also seems to be dissipating over this time and it becomes homogenized. And so that's where I go back to if I want to build a multi-platform kind of experience, I need to do so off of unique, varied and distinct content and tone and storytelling. Our industry is a storytelling industry. The core enthusiasts are built around this. I mean many won't shut up about where they've been or what they're doing or what their stack height is can confirm or their vegan burrito and that's awesome. It is awesome. That's about this. And so we have this group that's so invested in these stories and sharing their experiences. I feel like outside has this opportunity to use their market power to use their reach and install base to create truly unique, distinctive areas within their universe as opposed to homogenizing them even though they would still be in this walled garden.
(18:41):
I love that whole concept I always have. But it needs to feel much more diverse and tonally and aesthetically and let us have this uniqueness. It's like I think Barnes and Noble's new strategy with their stores is they're actually trying to be far more, what is it regionally or locally unique? Let the store merchandise slightly different, use different furniture and shelving as opposed to having the same cookie cutter approach. Even Starbucks in their cookie cutter approach. Still every store has a bit of a local feel to its neighborhood, really trying to create that kind of sense. I feel like that's being lost in the sports and under the need to kind of compress everything into a single umbrella we're losing. So we have 40 different titles of nuanced niches that all feel the same. I think that's their opportunity. So again, I go back to you want to build an integrated program, pay your content creators, focus on your talent, sharpen your editorial point of view, right? Again, you've got so much ability to tell all these stories and I love most of what they talk about, but it is just homogenizing. And I think that's storytelling is your brand, right? And that is you're not just an advertising audience delivery platform, which I get is that's the business, but that shouldn't be the purpose. And that's what I feel like has come to
Colin (20:11):
Pass. So last thing I guess before we move off of this, what do you think of my assertion that the reason they have such a long leash is because of a real lack of competition?
Producer Dave (20:20):
Well, absolutely. I mean that's the true, I mean they have a long leash because they have a lack of competition. They have a lack of competition because they've purchased up that competition, but they also have a lack of competition because look, even through before all of this acquisition outside was able to maintain and survive a massive disruption in the media industry. And so they did have a product that had a broad enough footprint. Again, even though I'm talking about unique voices, distinctness, you do need to be able to build that broad footprint to survive in this kind of climate. Outdoor is also interesting too. It's not like the NBA where all we're going to talk about is basketball. You mentioned we are cobbling together very distinct and nuanced lifestyles, niches. Now we all share say a camping thing or a hiking thing, but the paddler's life and the climber's life and the cyclist's life are so different in those other aspects and they're trying to create a big tent for everybody. So that is a challenge right there. But I do think the lack of competition certainly does allow them to kind of just push this middle of the road aspect further because there's no one pushing him from the sides or from behind to do something unique.
Colin (21:35):
Alright, well I'm sure we're going to talk about this again. I believe Justin Haman's going to be back on later this week. I am sure he will have some things to say about this. We'll see when he gets here. But in the meantime guys, it's time time for our weekly segment to be sure you are getting more out of the outdoors. It's time for more with Themore.
(21:58):
Alright, we made it to September. While I've always called September the best summer month, tourists have gone home still warm outside. Ocean temps really haven't dropped yet. September 1st is also the meteorological start of fall and that means it's time to get ready for cooler weather. And with that in mind, let me tell you about the steel sky crest insulated snap shirt. And guys, I don't know who gets credit for inventing the shack it or which brand in the last 10 years or so has really brought the shack it back into the mainstream. But man, am I glad they did. And the sky crest from steel is the perfect shack it to wear as apple and pumpkin picking looks to take over your weekends. And that's thanks to the main active ingredient and the sky crest Themore eco down, like I told you before. Thermo's eco down is the sustainable alternative to down feathers. A synthetic insulation that is made from 100% post-consumer plastic bottles and allows brands like S Steel to make a functional and versatile insulated shirt like the sky crest. You want to check out the sky crest, you head over to s steel.com and if you're an outdoor apparel designer or developer, you're missing out. If you don't head to themore.com and start working on using their suite of installation solutions in your next design because of weather, it's making amazing new garments or staying warm and safe out on the trail. You can do more with Themore
Producer Dave (23:13):
Colin. I think the shack, it actually goes back to work wear it does. I think you're right and kind of military kind of things, right? That kind of functional multifunctional. But I will say steel has perfected the shack. It it's beautiful. Sky crest is beautiful, Gar fantastic. It is a fantastic piece and really represents the category of shacks, right? Which I don't think we talk enough about, frankly.
Colin (23:35):
Wouldn't work without some themore though.
Producer Dave (23:37):
No, it would not. No it would not. You need it?
Colin (23:40):
Alright, let's run through some of the headlines that come out of the outdoor industry over the past week, starting with according to adventure.com. That's adventure with no middle E, it as an E at the end. No middle E winter sports gear manufacturer. Ross,
Producer Dave (23:52):
Were they paying by the letter? I think they might. We're just going to save. Do you dunno how much money we save by losing the
Colin (23:59):
E or it was a typo. They just went with it.
Producer Dave (24:01):
Oh, I like that too. Why retype it? It's
Colin (24:04):
Like, ah, it's fine. It looks cool.
Producer Dave (24:05):
Awesome. Looks cool.
Colin (24:06):
So winter sports gear manufacturer, Rozen Knoll has launched a new flagship trail running shoe after three years of research. Rozen Knoll debuted the, I'm going to assume it's Ezor, V-E-Z-O-R, let's call it Ezor and last week's Ultra Trail de Blanc and is set for a spring 2025 launch. The price of the shoe has not yet been revealed, but CEO of Ros Knoll, Vincent Waters was quoted in the article as saying we've extended our spring and summer 2025 range to include the simplest and purest form of mountain sport trail running. I'd argue that's hiking is the simplest and purest form of mountain sport. But potato, potato, looking at Ros Mill's website, they do currently offer some multi-sport shoes and for a brand known almost entirely for its winter offering. This seems like a logical strategic play. I have called out other brands, I've been critical of other brands here in the rock fight about the move into running and footwear because that's a really hard thing to pull off.
(25:03):
I mean, I think this is complicated by the fact that running just grows and grows and grows. I think we're not seeing a strategic shift by REI to be more run focused because they just really like that they see an opportunity. I don't know if we've seen the ceiling of the run market, so everyone just kind of wants to grab their share of that while they can it seems like. But I do believe it's a gamble because the design and manufacturing headwinds that come to making shoes is a big one as well as inventory. But if I'm Roal who's been around since 1907 and almost exclusively as a ski and winter sports brand, it's probably the most logical entry point to finally establish themselves in the spring summer category. So I dunno. Dave, what do you think of this as a move, a strategic move for razzy? For ign?
Producer Dave (25:46):
Well, it's funny entering the trail running market. When I would look at the Roal footwear, it kind of feels like they were already kind of doing that. I thought they
Colin (25:55):
Were showrunners,
Producer Dave (25:56):
But absolutely, absolutely. So good on you. Look, their footwear is fine, it's sleek, it's modern, there's nothing offensive about it. I mean it looks nice. It's got the rocker kind of back heel toe for kind of toe to heel striking kind of thing, so they look fine. So I guess if I'm a technical brand like Ros, I mean they're in everything they got from skis to tennis rackets to footwear like this. I mean they're kind of all over the place. So I guess that makes sense. I always think of the bird. I always just wonder if, do they have talons or not? It's a chicken, right? It's a rooster. Do chickens have talons? Colin? That's the question should be asking. So yeah, they're in it now. Is the running category we talk about running as being popular and I always go back, is running really more popular or is it just the people want lightweight, comfortable shoes that don't look like a keen sandal every time I want something that
Colin (27:04):
Feels good? Yeah, the running shoe category we call we should distinguish not running
Producer Dave (27:07):
Category. Yeah, right. I don't even know how much of these are going to get run on. I mean, I don't know what,
Colin (27:13):
Well, I think you touched on something there because everybody says that especially trail runnings growing and there's room and there's ceiling in the category every year it grows whatever. To your point, does anyone really talk about how many brands do consumers have an appetite for keeping track of, right? So if you show up at a store and now it's like in addition to all the classic footwear brands, now we have these 15 new running brands and that's where it's probably going to get dicey here. It's like if you're going to come down to I have two or three spots on my footwear wall and I've got the extra models from Hoka and on and these other brands who I know are selling well, but then now, oh, I've got Null and the LOA trail running shoe and named the six other brands that have entered the running space. Run Rabbit has a shoe. Now which one you want to pick? You're not going to pick all of them.
Producer Dave (28:02):
No, no. And I guess that's the expectation. If you're servicing your core customer that likes you for your aesthetic and your value, then there's a place for this type of product. If that's your expectation. If your expectation is to take market share on the wall in specialty, are you really committed to that? Right? That's just a different beast altogether. So in one sense I say they're kind of not competitive in that way, but they just want to have something. Like you said, it's our trail running shoe and we're technical and we're modern design. So here you go. Do
Colin (28:36):
You think that there's a button that they push in the offices at Sierra? So when a press release this comes out, they get fucking confetti comes out like, oh
Producer Dave (28:45):
Man, next year
Colin (28:47):
The ROS are going to show up.
Producer Dave (28:49):
Yeah dude, I think it's kind like the bat signal. Yeah, something comes up onto the clouds and lets them know that inventory will be here
Colin (28:59):
Soon. Its on it way. We can't confirm it. We believe our forecast just doubled for 2020 five's. Ro Mill
Producer Dave (29:04):
Just released a new shoe, right? Logistics folks are already, I've got a place in the warehouse set up for this. We've got pallets waiting just come on.
Colin (29:14):
Hey, sorry Rosing, I'm not trying to doom you. I mean I hope you succeed. Good luck. But man, it's going to be tough. Alright, next story. According to apparel, views.com event, a maker of waterproof fabrics has debuted two new technologies that are pfas Free Event Bio and Alpine st. This is a quote from the press release, provide long lasting solutions for demanding apparel, footwear and accessory applications while compliant with regulations requiring the removal of PFAS chemicals that are mandated by European Union and the state of California. There's a little, if you're not familiar about an events, basically it's the same technology as Gore-Tex, it's E-P-T-F-E. They claim to be slightly more breathable and I'm sure they have some level of testing that shows that it is basically, it's effectively the same thing. But they've been around for a long time and have tried to be a competitor to Gore for a long time.
(30:09):
And there's definitely a part of me that sees this and has a bit of a knee jerk reaction that thinks kind of too little, too late. And we recently did an episode of Gear and Beer where we called the PFA S buyer guide. If you haven't listened to everybody, you should go check it out. We had made Carney from the outside minimalist podcast on talking about PFAS and how to sort of arrange your outdoorsy life about within the PFA S problem. And look, the thing we learned, especially on that episode, and it's not hard to find out, is how long we've known about it and how little action has been taken over the last 10 to 15 years in the outdoor space when it comes to PFAS, but also having been at a textile maker in my career, and Dave you have as well, I also understand how little sway the people who actually make the things that brands use in their products have.
(30:56):
And that's a hard balance to strike between the things you make and what they should be buying and what people actually do buy. So I don't know unless you're willing to make your own goods and the only textile maker who has really been able to do that or has tried doing that has been gore. And I think part of the future is making less stuff and making it for the outdoor space should really be vertical manufacturing. But now I'm getting deep on a manufacturing standpoint and away from the PFAS issue. I dunno. Dave, what did you think when you read this about event?
Producer Dave (31:24):
Well look, anytime somebody like that, like an ingredient especially that's going to have the opportunity to impact multiple brands is moving in the right direction. That's a positive. I think what was missed maybe in that whole announcement is that event I think also recognized Alaska's entry into the union, which is also probably a little bit over overdrawn. They should have done that years ago. I just sitting
Colin (31:50):
Around waiting for shit to happen. They
Producer Dave (31:52):
Are right. And you know what? They'll get to it. You know what I realized that happened in the fifties?
Colin (31:57):
Did you hear we declared our independence? Did you hear about
Producer Dave (31:58):
That? Right, right. See, so good for them, good for them. Acknowledging Alaska as a state is excellent and getting rid of PFAS also also good and timely. Look, they're essentially the poster child for the industry's kind of slow move from here. I mean they're a small player against a very large player. Their technologies are very similar. They use the same ingredients. So their entire business is essentially built upon this PFAS laden membrane. And so a legal product, mind you, as much as we know about this, how do we move our business off of that polar tech? Other brands have been able to do this because they have different technologies at the core of their waterproof solutions. And so I think that's going to create a problem
Colin (32:56):
With challenge that nobody buys those solutions so
Producer Dave (32:59):
Right, even though they're non PFAS and they're there, but the big player, let's say fairly or unfairly makes it sure that people don't buy those solutions and event is stuck in that is stuck in that kind of place. So yeah, so look, I'm not going to be too harsh on 'em. Good for them. Go run. You can keep going. I would say maybe look at some other forms of waterproof insulation kind of technologies that might also lend itself to non PFAS. Sure.
Colin (33:33):
Well they have these now. I mean, I don't know. I also, I go back to my point, I think if event just made some garments, it's like, hey, these are pfas free, can't get this technology, we're saving this. The incumbent outdoor brands can't have it. We make it our own stuff. I dunno, that'd be an interesting story. Kind of put the pressure back on the brands.
Producer Dave (33:49):
It would be. It would be. And I do think that that is a viable solution for ingredients struggling to get brands to pay the premium it takes to innovate as well as to innovate responsibly. And so I think they're going to have to do that.
Colin (34:07):
Alright, let's take a quick break. When we come back, we're going to hit our last story for the day and then get to our parting shots. If you're listening to the rock fight, there's a good chance you work in an outdoor industry brand or retailer. And you know that our industry has often struggled with how to address the topics of diversity, equity, and inclusion. But there are concrete actions you and your brand can take to make a real difference and not just make some vague statement that nobody really knows what you mean anyway, let me tell you about the great Malden Outdoors. The Great Malden Outdoors is an outdoor enablement campaign in the city of Malden, Massachusetts located just a few miles north of Boston. Malden is a unique gem with diversity not just in its cultural identity, but in their outdoor recreation that is public transit accessible to the entire greater Boston area.
(34:52):
Malden is uniquely positioned as a community to create change when it comes to who we see using their trails, waterways, and bike paths. And they are seeking your partnership for brands that can mean donated gear, apparel or footwear internships, or even just the almighty dollar retailers you can send in last season's leftovers. And if your warehouses are clean, well then you too can always send money. This is a way for you to make a real difference and help change the face of who we see going outside. Head to the great malden outdoors.com and click contact to build a partnership today. Last story for today. Earlier this year we had a conversation on the rock fight with Chris Dickey of Purple Orange, who was one of the architects of last year's viral solo stove Snoop Dogg ad where Snoop announced he was going smokeless only then to reveal that it was an ad for solo stove's, smokeless fire pit.
(35:40):
Shortly after that campaign, the then CEO of solo stove John Marris was dismissed in part because they said the Snoop campaign was expensive and didn't result in retail sales. Well apparently the campaign did something right because last week and the daily it was announced that Snoop is back with solo stove for a new campaign this time with his pal Warren G. And apparently the difference this time will be what they're calling a 360 degree campaign that will integrate Snoop into solo stove's website and marketplace along with their wholesale accounts. That kicks off now rather than waiting till November. I think if you break down the point of a marketing campaign and what you aim to get from it, usually you can point to the end goal being either a brand building opportunity or results at the register. The point I made when John Mars was fired here on the show was that was reported as being directly a result of poor sales from an expensive marketing campaign with Snoop Dogg.
(36:37):
And for me it just seemed like that was obviously a brand building initiative and to fire the CEO because of its failure kind of made it clear to me, I felt like at the time that he was his dead man walking already and that this was just the simple way to make that happen. And I feel like this news last week confirms that because even if you're adding more retail friendly elements, how is bringing into high price legendary wrappers and putting a table topper on top of a display at Target, is that really going to be the juice you need to sell more solo stoves? I think I could see it playing out as they become known more as the Snoop Fire pit brand, but I don't know, let's do this five months after you said the last guy was an idiot for even trying this thing is kind of shitty. So I dunno. Dave, what did you think when you saw this in the news last week?
Producer Dave (37:27):
Of course they did. Of course they did, right? Of course they did
Colin (37:34):
Get all that attention. We got some Snoop pretty good,
Producer Dave (37:37):
Right? But let's compare that to performance metrics for a top of the funnel brand exercise and wonder why it didn't work, right? I know I had to bring that up top of the funnel, but why didn't it convert? I don't know, maybe that's not what its job was. So now we're going to double down on that now that we've gotten rid of the folks that helped bring it to life and yeah, that sounds pretty typical. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds pretty typical for sure though I have to say this whole time, this is the unsung heroes here are the account team at the Martin agency, the ad agency that helped conceive this in the first time and brought this because that's the real genius here. They were able to take a campaign that essentially got their contact and boss fired and they were able to not just shy away and hope that things blow over, they doubled down and went back to new management, old management and said, no, no, let's bring in another wrapper that's going to cost just as much and let's really lean into this. And so if I was on the creative team, I would be a little bit nicer to your account team, your biz dev folks, they really sold this sucker in and here you are getting another bite at the apple. So well done team.
Colin (39:01):
Yeah, I do feel bad for John Marris. I mean I'm not sure, I can't confirm my assertion that he was deadband walkin, but it just seems a little weird to say we'll take all the learnings from this first stab at this. Which again was, I mean no one had really done anything like this. I know Solo stove is a fringe outdoor brand, but it's like it was so well received. I mean let's go back and listen to the conversation when Chris Dickey was on this show about the reach they got with that thing. I mean just again, you can say if it was misrepresented like oh this is going to result in X number of sales, then fine, I get it. But you definitely got your name out there and then to be like, okay, let's get rid of this guy. And then to your point, let's double down like man, old move.
(39:45):
Alright, well it's time for our parting shots and if you listen to the lyrics of the Rock, I'm going to go first. If you listen to the lyrics of the Rock Fight fight song as composed by the voice of the Rock Fight podcast network Mr. Krista makes, there are more things referenced than you actually get on the show. Typically we talk a lot about pop culture and movie reviews, which no one really seemed to when we did that. If you feel differently and want more outdoor movie reviews, please let us know by emailing us at my rock fight@gmail.com. But music gets mentioned in the song. So I'm wondering music into my parting shot today. I want to know why the art of the music video seems to have died almost completely right. I was actually, I was on TikTok and there are amazing Beavis and Butthead clips on TikTok, some of the old school nineties, some of the more recent Paramount reboot and they were recent watching an Olivia Rodrigo video and it was hilarious, but I'm watching it watching. I didn't even know Olivia Rodrigo made music videos and the way today's youth consumes media seemingly would be perfect for music videos. So I don't know. I don't know what gives, I feel like music videos should be on the verge of a comeback. I love music videos. It's a great little piece of art form. I used to watch them all the time. I think it should still exist and it's perfect for modern technology. That's my parting shot.
Producer Dave (40:55):
So your parting shot is old guy yells at clouds? Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay, fantastic.
Colin (41:03):
Yes, Warren G would understand.
Producer Dave (41:05):
Fantastic. He would.
Colin (41:08):
What do you got? What's your parting shot?
Producer Dave (41:09):
My parting shot is actually more of a parting, just a bit of praise. So I had to get my car serviced last week out in Hillsborough, which is suburb kind west of Portland. And afterwards I didn't want to drive back in and so I went and found a kind of a wilderness area in the Portland Parks system out on the TWA River out there. And I want to say it was a fantastic property and I drove to a couple other ones afterwards. I was so impressed and Portland. So my parting shot is Hillsborough Parks and Rex. Well done. Good on you. You guys are putting together some, a
Colin (41:54):
Nice party praise more than a shot
Producer Dave (41:55):
Parting praise, right? Yeah, look, the places were clean, the forest was well tended. It was a joy to walk, mix of trail in terms of ground, in terms of topography and difficulty. Just beautiful areas and I just have to say they're definitely, that's not easy, especially these eras of budget cuts and everything. They are really maintaining some wonderful places. So good for them. Full disclosure, I did grow up in Hillsborough many years ago and I'll tell you those parks did not look like back then, so they've really come a long way.
Colin (42:36):
And then you left.
Producer Dave (42:37):
Yeah. And the park system got better coincidence. No, not at all. Not at all.
Colin (42:42):
Alright, we can wrap it up there. The rock fight is a production of Rock Fight LLC, our producer today, David Carta, our direction provided by Sarah Montana, Genser Colin, true. Thanks for listening. And here to take us out. It's Krista makes, he's going to sing about pop culture and movies and music and all these other things that we don't talk about much here on the rock fight. But he's going to sing the rock Fight fight song and we'll see you next time. Rock fighters
Producer Dave (43:06):
Storytelling, rock
Chris DeMakes (43:08):
Fight, rock fight, rock fight, rock fight, rock fight, rock fight. We go into the rock, fight where we speak our truth, stay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. We talk about human power, outdoor activities and pick bikes about topics that we find interesting, black culture, music, the latest movie reviews, ideas, aim for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak. Andrew, welcome to the welcome.