Today Colin is joined by outdoor industry insider Eoin Comerford (Producer Dave is out sick) to talk about all the big stories that came out of the outdoor industry last week.
On the docket today:
In a rare industry spite move (ok it's not just that) VF spinoff Kontoor Brands acquired Helly Hansen from Canadien Tire Corporation. Eoin gives us the background and we take a look at what may be next. (05:20)
SKIMS is back in the news as it was announced that they will be creating a new brand with Nike. Of course, backlash ensued. Colin & Eoin break it down. (16:30)
Wolverine announces that Merrell products are "going back to the mall" and Saucony is a big part of their plans for 2025. (28:31)
Lastly, The Parting Shot, where Colin talks about the latest video from Patagonia who wants you to believe they are leading on the PFAS front...fun fact: they aren't. (39:27)
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Episode Transcript
Colin True
00:00:00.400 - 00:01:12.238
Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast at Aims for the Head. I'm Colin True.
It's Monday and today producer Dave is out sick, but Rock Fight consigliere Owen Comerford is here to talk through a handful of the bigger stories that hit the outdoor industry last week.
But before we get to that, make sure you come back to the Rock Fight this Wednesday when outdoor journalist Justin Hausman and I will be talking about some of the latest headlines that come out of the outdoor adventure community.
And if you come back on Friday, you either hear me talking to some notable industry voice on industry topics or you'll get one of my patented outdoor hot takes.
It's Monday today, so you only have one more day to subscribe to Rock Fight's weekly newsletter, News from the Front that comes out each and every Tuesday. Head to Rockfight Co click on the little pop up that opens up when you get to the website or click Join the mailing list to sign up.
Oh, and actually while you're there, we're running a survey. We want to hear from you so the Rock Fight listeners. So head to Rockfight Co as well. Sign up for news from the front and then take our survey.
And if you're new around here, please subscribe and join the Rock Fight by hitting the Follow button on whatever podcast app you are listening to us on. Give us that five star rating. It's the best way to support the show and stick around. We'll be right back.
Chris DeMakes
00:01:12.294 - 00:01:16.250
Welcome to the Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Colin True
00:01:18.150 - 00:01:33.962
You're listening to Rock Fight Radio. Oh you got DJCT back with you spinning the hits. And it's that time because we have another new song from that hit machine Fitz.
And Fitz wants to ask you why just settle for a smart sock when you can opt for a smarter sock?
FITS!
00:01:34.026 - 00:02:44.014
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The smarter sock fits Fits is the smarter sock fits Whole foot comfort is the answer to the question of the knit fits Opt for the smarter sock fits.
Colin True
00:02:44.142 - 00:03:01.988
And now back to the show.
All right, apparently that mile high air was a little too dry and thin for producer Dave as he was with me at the outdoor Media Outdoor Market alliance media event last week. So he's taking a sick day. But our own outdoor industry insider, Owen Comerford, he's here. What's going on, Owen?
Eoin Comerford
00:03:02.084 - 00:03:19.956
Not much. I mean, I, I'm still here in Key Largo, but you're the traveling man. How, how was the show?
I mean, it sounds like all that anyone could talk about was, was rock fight and, and, and, and, and basically. Did anyone bribe you like to, to, to get on the. Higher up the brand list, thankfully.
Colin True
00:03:19.988 - 00:03:22.244
Oh, to get, oh, to get on the gear. Yeah, the top five list.
Eoin Comerford
00:03:22.332 - 00:03:23.924
Yeah, you know, just a little, you.
Colin True
00:03:23.932 - 00:03:47.344
Know, I got many more thank yous and, and scowls than I was maybe anticipating for that list for sure. And then, then a is coming. Yes.
If you're like, oh man, we didn't, you know, or a couple, we were happy to be mentioned, you know, those kinds of things. The, the folks at Exped were pumped. The folks at MSR were pumped. Okay.
We heard from on LinkedIn last week, Wiley over at Rumple, just happy to be included.
Eoin Comerford
00:03:47.392 - 00:03:52.660
There you go. That's good. I mean, as long as there were, there was, there were no threats of bodily harm or anything.
Colin True
00:03:53.400 - 00:04:01.200
No more fear. A little of like, oh, man, we gotta better get my presentation right. We're worried what we might say. I'm like, hey, man, like, we're nice.
Eoin Comerford
00:04:01.280 - 00:04:06.920
I think. Even when we're mean, we're nice. I think. But no, I'm nice. You? Yeah. I don't know. Maybe not.
Colin True
00:04:07.300 - 00:04:11.164
That's what you gotta. Well, I'm sitting in the hot seat. I gotta be black or white. You bring the gray.
Eoin Comerford
00:04:11.212 - 00:04:15.180
Okay. In more ways than one, but yes, that's right.
Colin True
00:04:15.300 - 00:04:28.892
You're not that much older than me, but the. Yeah, the one.
I think I mentioned it on the reaction with Doug on Friday, but we got to spend some time with the GM of Marmot and I'm excited to share some stuff on the pod down the road on that one. That was a great conversation.
Eoin Comerford
00:04:28.956 - 00:04:31.580
Are we gonna get him on? Do you think he'll join us here?
Colin True
00:04:31.620 - 00:05:03.404
I think we're going to try to get him on. He's a really good guy. I'll tease the listeners.
The one thing that he said and he's listened to all of our Marmot content and we even in our survey, which I mentioned in the open that we're running, had a handful of a hey man, lay off of Marmot kind of comments.
His takeaway and this is all tease and then we'll, we'll hopefully have John on down the road was that his takeaway from all of our criticisms were that we actually love the brand Marmot 100. And I'm like, yeah, I'm like, you get it. Like we're not trying to just beat you guys up, but you're kind of the poster child for where this can go.
And he's like, yeah, you're right.
Eoin Comerford
00:05:03.512 - 00:05:07.120
So, yeah, if we didn't care about the brand, it wouldn't even come up.
Colin True
00:05:07.500 - 00:05:09.780
Oh. Or we'd just be way more mean.
Eoin Comerford
00:05:09.900 - 00:05:10.600
Yeah.
Colin True
00:05:11.340 - 00:06:11.348
So, but hey, let's get going today. We've got a bunch of things to talk about. Today's opening shot is of course presented by Garage Grown Gear, your hub for ultralight gear.
Learn more by heading to garagegrowinggear.com and we'll tell you a little bit more about them in a few minutes.
But the first story we want to talk about, and if you read Owen's post on LinkedIn last week about our first story, then you know, he's, I think he's going to be giddy today to talk about here in the show. There was a little sense of delight and every and every word on your post as we go.
And so because last week, Contour Brands, Contour spelled K O N T O O R, which is a spin off of V. Off of vf excuse me.
And known for owning the Wrangler and Lee denim brands, acquired Helly Hansen, the iconic 148-year-old outdoor apparel brand from Canadian Tire Corporation for $900 million. And on the surface, you know, I think you could say this is just another, you know, outdoor brand acquisition like we see pretty regularly.
But oh, and there are some deeper feelings resonating across this deal. So why don't you share some insights that you posted last week over on LinkedIn.
Eoin Comerford
00:06:11.444 - 00:06:55.056
Yeah, no, I, I giddy, I think is, is how I would describe myself when this came out. Because, and right. If you're not inside the industry, it was just like, okay, another exhibition, no big deal. But oh, this is just Karma's a bitch.
I mean, so, okay, let me just give kind of the background here. So Contour Brands, basically it was created in 2019 when then head of VF Corp.
Steve Rendell and the cool kids, North Face Timberland vans, et cetera, they decided, you know what, this boring denim stuff that Wrangler and Lee had sold at Walmart, like, oh, it's way too for us. It's actually holding us back and it's distracting the market just from how awesome we are. And so if we could just.
Colin True
00:06:55.128 - 00:06:58.176
This is like peak vf, right? This is kind of like the peak of their powers.
Eoin Comerford
00:06:58.288 - 00:08:12.030
And so they're like, if we could just get rid of them, spin them out separate company, then we have all these really prized assets. And so therefore, obviously our valuation will skyrocket and they can do whatever the hell they want to do, right?
So they spun it out into this separate group called Contour. Don't ask me where the name came from, but, you know, then fast forward today, okay? And VF stock is off by more than 2/3, right?
And obviously they're in the middle, middle of a pretty, pretty rough restructuring. But. But it feels like they're, you know, you know, on the, on the bounce back now at least. So, so kudos to them.
Meanwhile, Contour brands, this, the boring denim brands, so called, their stock has more than doubled since, since the, since the spinner, right? So a huge reverse in fortunes between the two. And you know, I think some people may say, well, Owen, you're, you're, you're, you're.
You're kind of projecting or something under this. That really is. This, this wasn't personal at all. No, that's bullshit. It totally was personal.
This is a quote from, from Scott Baxter, who's the CEO of Contour in wwd, I guess. Do we still call it Women's Wear Daily? I don't know.
Colin True
00:08:12.410 - 00:08:14.610
I think it's just if this is. I think this is WWD now.
Eoin Comerford
00:08:14.650 - 00:08:28.110
Wwd. This is a quote from him last year. We were not wanted. That produces a huge chip on your shoulder to say, oh, really? Okay, well, we'll show you.
I mean, come on.
Colin True
00:08:28.150 - 00:08:41.214
So what is there when we say spin off too? I mean, it was like, well, how did that. What's the structure of Contour? It's its own company, right? There is no relation with VF anymore.
And we say spin off is like, here are these brands. Somebody came along, purchased them, and started Contours. Is that accurate?
Eoin Comerford
00:08:41.262 - 00:09:22.678
I don't know. So basically, the way spinoffs work in the public markets is the idea is to take one corporation, right? And then you cut it into two.
And so basically, in that Scenario if you owned the F Corp. Stock, okay, you would get, you would continue to have a share of the F Corp. But now you also get a share of this new company.
Okay, so, so it isn't, it wasn't sold to anybody. You could, I guess you could say it was sold to the shareholders. But no, you basically split the company in two. And then your old share of VF Corp.
Now you've got two companies. One, one, one, one. Two shares. One for contra, one for the F.
Colin True
00:09:22.734 - 00:09:25.010
So is it the board operates both of these.
Eoin Comerford
00:09:25.630 - 00:10:32.996
No. And then they're split off into. No, into separate boards. They're totally separate companies.
The concept, you know, usually spinoffs are done in order to, to unlock value within the company.
So like in this case, the thought process was, well, let's spin off these sort of, you know, less sexy assets because they're kind of, they're holding down, holding back the sexy assets, right?
And it's similar to the whole like the, there's like a bad bank strategy here, which is similar to what we talked about last week with Marmot and with the Newell Newell Outdoor brands. I mean, what Newell could potentially do is create a separate, a spin off.
So against a separate company called Newell Outdoor or probably something totally different, that would be a separate stock.
And what that would then do is if you pull those companies out of the financials for Newell, let's say, then the overall financial picture looks a lot better because it doesn't have the drag on the business that it had. So it was a spin out. I mean, literally, or cast off.
Colin True
00:10:33.068 - 00:10:54.500
Created an entirely separate company. Entirely separate company based on the fact that like you said, I mean, look, Baxter's quote confirms it. We are not the cool kids.
These are the cool kids kicking out the, the not cool kids from school. And now six years later, one is maybe they're coming back a little bit, but they're definitely not where. They're not where they were.
And this one is growing to the point where it's, you know, it's buying almost a billion dollar brand.
Eoin Comerford
00:10:54.620 - 00:12:12.020
And you know, like I said in my LinkedIn post, they could have bought, I mean, okay, they're in acquisition mode, which is cool. They could have bought one of a hundred different denim or fashion brands, right? But no, they chose to buy a major outdoor brand in Helly Hansen.
Okay? Now believe me, they're very smart, disciplined people. It's not like they just did this just to, you know, raise the middle finger to the F Corp.
But was that part of the, was that part of the joy in the process. Yes, yes, I think it was.
And in talking to some EXVF and North Face insiders, there was not a lot of love lost between Baxter and Randall in particular. And the other thing I would tell you is Randall was also the architect of the whole move to Denver thing. Right.
Which, and that created a lot of ill will, I would say, within the company. Less than half the people actually moved from Alameda to Denver.
So there's this whole diaspora of ex VF North Face folks out in the industry that are all just loving this. I mean, loving it.
Colin True
00:12:13.200 - 00:12:56.720
All right, so there is the fuck you of it all, which I love this too. Frankly. I didn't know any of the things that you told me, but it just, I like to see more of this in the outdoor industry.
It's like an episode of succession playing out.
But in our world for a change, you know, usually it's just like, usually we're just criticizing boneheaded decisions by brands in the and big companies. And like this is sort of like a. All right, nice. Like Logan Roy is at the helm right now, but beyond that.
So let's talk about Helly Hansen for a second. So they're not quite a billion dollar brand. I'm not sure they're. I mean, their history is iconic. Like I said, a nearly 150-year-old brand.
You know, what's the upside potential, right? So like, why choose Heli? Is it just a.
They're kind of a steady Eddie and they can kind of sit there and like compete against a North Face even if they don't grow that much more? Or is there upside with, with Heli from your, in your, from your, in your opinion?
Eoin Comerford
00:12:56.800 - 00:14:14.640
There's definite upside. A very iconic brand, you know, international, obviously they've got a huge presence in the, in the EU and here in North America.
Multi activity, you know, obviously big and outdoor, but big in sailing and in other areas as well. And again, almost a billion dollars. There aren't that many, you know, billion dollar ish outdoor brands.
And so it's a big platform that you can really move on. And then lots of technologies. They've got a really interesting synthetic base layer technology.
I mean, there's a lot of elements there that I think can be, could interesting to, you know, to push further into whether it be ski, snow, lifestyle, you know, going more after core outdoor if you want to go after, you know, hike, mountain lifestyle, et cetera. So I think it'll be interesting. And you know, that's the thing is that obviously a lot of the team from Contour came from VF Corp.
And actually, you know, Scott actually was the group president of the outdoor and active sports group for VF before he took. Took on the role of Contour. So he knows this, this industry. Right.
And I'm sure has a playbook in terms of how to take this acquisition to the next level.
Colin True
00:14:15.500 - 00:14:48.044
Probably a good sign for Helly Hansen is. I don't know if we've ever mentioned them more than a handful of times in the over two years I've been doing this podcast. Right.
And part of that, I think they're Steady Eddie. This probably. Yeah, they're the outdoor side, to your point, but they have a huge workwear presence as well. Right. They are big on crabbing boats.
Like fishermen wear their stuff. I mean, so like it is a.
There is an evergreen segment of their business that I believe is very meaningful versus the North Face, which seems more reliant on fashion and obviously outdoor technical proficiency with like Mountaineers and things like that in terms of their brand image. Anyway. So pretty interesting actually.
Eoin Comerford
00:14:48.132 - 00:15:37.468
Yeah, the workwear thing is really interesting, right. Because obviously also VF has gone after that with this Dickies acquisition. So it's actually competing on multiple levels there.
And there is a workwear aspect to Wrangler as well. And so I think that there's a number of different potential plays that you could leverage with this.
So, yeah, it's going to be really interesting to see where they take it.
The other thing I would say is it's great to have a new acquisitive player on the chessboard here in the outdoor industry because there are a lot of brands that are. That, you know, that historically would get to a certain size. You get to like 100 million and it's like, well, okay, what's the next step?
Colin True
00:15:37.524 - 00:15:37.692
Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:15:37.716 - 00:15:45.436
Who's. Is it going to be another private equity firm or who's. Who's going to acquire you? Like a Codapaxi would be an example. Right. It's like who's going to.
Colin True
00:15:45.508 - 00:15:45.740
Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:15:45.780 - 00:16:30.492
You know, what's the next step there? And in the past you might have thought the F Corp, you know, I don't know that they're. They're in the acquisition mode right now.
They've still got a lot of work to do on their balance sheet. But you think of other up and coming brands, like I think of like Bedrock Sandals and I don't know anything about Bedrock Sandals.
I don't know if they're on the market looking for whatever, but like, I just think of a brand like that up and coming, you know, where could it go to if those founders, you know, were looking for an exit? And this could be the place because, you know, the next logical step here you've got your apparel anchor.
Do you start to add footwear like the F Corp did with Timberland and Altra and others? So, yeah, it's going to be interesting.
Colin True
00:16:30.636 - 00:17:47.512
Well, the next thing that happened last week that we need to talk about is Kim Kardashian.
Skims was back in the news this past week after last month's collaboration with the North Face that sold out in mere minutes and then also caused a stir within the outdoor industry.
I think it's safe to say it was announced that Skims wouldn't just be collaborating with a new partner, but would in fact be creating a whole new brand with Nike, of all people. The brand has a bit of a clunky name where it's just Nike Skims, but it shows how important skims has become in a relatively short amount of time.
Nike sees Skims as a partner to help capture a larger share of female fans, according to what we've been reading online. Additionally, Skims has become a force, which I think maybe people aren't recognizing when it comes to this brand.
They launched a men's part of its line recently and established partnerships with both the NBA and the WNBA and currently carries a $4 billion valuation. Now I know everybody, again in the sort of inside baseball part of the outdoor industry.
They're going to immediately point to the environmental criticisms that comes with Skims, and those are totally valid. That's something that they. We would all like to see them improve on. But I think the overall point of what we spoke about with the.
The North Face collaboration, you know, it's. It's a great move for both brands. It makes a lot of sense.
And when you kind of see what both parties bring to the table, it really does help both of them out. So what were your thoughts when you saw this move by these brands?
Eoin Comerford
00:17:47.656 - 00:19:45.462
The environmental thing, obviously, is a big concern.
This actually may be good news from that perspective because a lot of the pushback on Skims is just the total lack of any kind of transparency about what they are doing and the impact that they are having.
And if the product is produced by Nike, I think you will start to see much more transparency based upon the supply chain that they have and the processes that they have. So I think that's, I would say, some good news, potentially. Yeah. Ultimately, I think it's an interesting play.
Nike's women's business has lagged a little bit.
And just reading some of the feelings out there, I think the female side of the business always felt like a very, very, not even close to second place within the Nike world.
And then obviously with the money behind men's pro athletics versus women's, there was this second class citizen feeling I think within, within the whole, you know, Nike universe. So this is interesting because obviously it's very much a female first brand.
Yes, there's a men's piece to it, but let's face it, it's a women's brand so it could give that sense of this is for us piece of it. But yeah, I think it's an interesting play.
Some of the criticism that I've seen out there is, hey, you know, they were just, you know, Elliot Hill, who is the CEO that you know, came back and is going to rebuild Nike. I think he came back in October. A big part of his push has been we need to get back to basics, get back to the core of what made Nike great.
It's amazing, an inspiring product. It's inspiring branding. It's really getting back and working with athletes and all those pieces. And I think you could argue, well, this is not that.
Okay, sure.
Colin True
00:19:45.646 - 00:20:15.232
So, but it doesn't really derail any of that either though because they are like we made a note in our outline, this is not just a collaboration. This isn't a collection. This is its own brand. Right. So they are obviously there's going to have its own go to market strategy that comes with it.
They're going to have their own products that are branded Nike skims, you know, and so whatever is happening on the return to specialty kind of initiative that Elliott is putting into place, I imagine, I mean this could be a part of it. I imagine it will be to a certain extent but you know, it's, it doesn't have to necessarily derail any of that, those efforts either, does it?
Eoin Comerford
00:20:15.256 - 00:21:09.770
No, no it doesn't. I think the interesting thing here is that they, that they didn't just buy, buy skims. Right.
Because ultimately by doing this they are going to increase the value of skims even more. So and skims is getting at a 4, at a $4 billion valuation. They're getting a pretty nice multiple there.
My understanding is they're doing about a billion dollars right now in revenue. So they're getting a forex multiple on revenue, which is really quite nice.
So yeah, why not just buy them and then create Nike skims and just go off to the races there? Because actually Nike's Stock was up $6 billion on this news. Right, interesting.
So they could have potentially had almost the market pay for the acquisition, if you.
Colin True
00:21:10.450 - 00:21:25.530
Yeah, And I mean, skims, they achieved that 4 billion valuation originally in 2023, and it hasn't budged. Right. They've kind of just been where they've been. So I wonder, you know, they may have been open to it, I would think. Right.
Because maybe isn't there the opportunity that it could have even decreased in value in the coming years, or do you think it would have only grown?
Eoin Comerford
00:21:25.610 - 00:21:28.474
Well, I think this will certainly help it grow. Right.
Colin True
00:21:28.562 - 00:21:28.826
Yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:21:28.858 - 00:21:42.214
Right. And now.
And it'll actually, if Nike does ultimately purchase Skims, unless there's more to this deal than we know about, it'll just increase the price that they'll have to pay for a brand that they basically.
Colin True
00:21:42.262 - 00:21:44.166
Helped build, that they helped grow.
Eoin Comerford
00:21:44.238 - 00:22:12.022
Yeah, right, right, right.
So, yeah, so I think it's an interesting, it's an interesting play one, though, that certainly draws, I mean, a lot of reactions from all sides of the. Of the LinkedIn, you know, universe. Yeah. There doesn't seem to be people in the middle.
It's either like, you hate this and you think it's the worst thing ever, or this is genius and the people that hate it, like, hate it.
Colin True
00:22:12.126 - 00:24:17.664
And it's much like the TNF thing.
I understood the TNF blowback on a certain level because you have an outdoor brand that's an iconic outdoor brand that has made the environment a big part of its marketing and, you know, its identity. And you have. Now they're partnering with a brand who, like, to your point, is a terrible environmental score.
So, you know, how do you kind of square those things? VF in the north face. I understand that's a valid question. You know, I. Nike's consumers don't expect that.
You know, I'm sure Nike has its own, you know, emissions plant goals and environmental goals that are well stated, but I, you know, they're, you know, it's not the same expectations, fair or unfair, that maybe there should be, as there is on a north face. So I don't think that it's really a valid comparison between the two, at least in the court of public opinion.
But also with this being the second one in a month and kind of seeing a similar reaction, it's really hard not to look at this as a completely sexist point of view that it is.
Or even just a bias, at minimum, against Kim Kardashian, which I understand she's a divisive figure, a Lot of people have a lot of opinions about how she has grown to prominence and has earned her money. Look, it's 2025. She built a billion dollar company. Right?
I mean, it's like, follow the money and the opportunity here and you'll figure out why they did these things. You know, I had a chance to talk with Shantae Salibare, who does work with the Rock Fight and listeners.
You're gonna hear more from her on this show and some other areas going forward. And she's an amazing writer. She had the opportunity to interview Kourtney Kardashian and went to their house a few years ago.
This is, I think, pre the show, or maybe the beginning parts of the show. Her takeaway was what she told me is like, this family has worked for what they have. Like, this is a.
This was not just sort of they stumbled into being like a really wealthy family. Like, this has been a strategy. This has been well thought out. Yeah. These people hustle for what they got.
Now, if you don't like that, I think this is just the example for me of, like, don't hate the game, not the player. Like, these people game the system and are succeeding because of it. And you can hate skims all you want because of Kim Kardashian.
Like, oh, well, you know, I mean, she's. She's earned it.
Eoin Comerford
00:24:17.752 - 00:24:29.360
Yeah, she has. And I would say, though, she gets a lot of credit for skims. And realistically, actually, there is a. The folks behind skims who really built.
I mean, she was. She's the.
Colin True
00:24:29.400 - 00:24:30.608
She's the face.
Eoin Comerford
00:24:30.664 - 00:24:31.312
Right, But. But.
Colin True
00:24:31.336 - 00:24:32.768
But she's the face, though, right?
Eoin Comerford
00:24:32.824 - 00:24:48.884
Yeah. And I think also some of the subtle sexism that I see here is, oh, well, you know, women only buy skims because Kim Kardashian is the face of skims.
And it's like, well, that's like the dumbest thing. Right? It's like, well, okay, hold on a second.
Colin True
00:24:48.972 - 00:24:53.364
Not to that. To a $4 billion level. I mean, come on. Or $1 billion in sales, whatever it is.
Eoin Comerford
00:24:53.452 - 00:25:02.692
There's no doubt that Kim Kardashian, being part of. Of it, gave it a brand and got it in front of a lot of people 100%. But.
Colin True
00:25:02.796 - 00:25:03.156
Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:25:03.228 - 00:26:15.300
People don't continue to buy that product because of that.
They're buying skims because of the way that it fits, because of the way that it makes them feel, because of the way that it makes them look, and they want that. Right. And if North Face can capture some of that in this. In this new brand, I think, you know, but. But take it into more of a pure athleisure play.
I mean, you're going to see a lot of leggings. You're going to see. I mean, you're going to see a lot of this brand going right at Lululemon. I mean, that's. That, that's the bullseye, right?
It's like that's who we want, right? Yes, it's performance, but it's not really. It's kind of. It's in that sort of at.
And you know, I think part of the reaction to the brand, and I was just thinking about this personally myself because I definitely had more of a problem with the North Face one than I have with this. But I think that's more of an Owen thing because the North Face brand means a lot more to me personally.
And so when something like this comes along, it's like owner that's attacking my worldview of what this brand is. Whereas Nike is like, eh, Nike, right To me. Whereas obviously there are people out there where Nike is everything.
And so I can certainly see where some people take this more personally than others, if you see what I'm saying.
Colin True
00:26:15.840 - 00:27:26.244
I do. And I think this is an opportunity for. This is an inside baseball podcast.
Most people listen to it are the ones who are probably speaking up about this or have, who have opinions about this. And this is a reminder of the, I mean, frankly, the greenwashing in the industry, right?
It's like if the things we're getting mad about here were important, broadly, these things wouldn't happen. We wouldn't have, you know, over consumption. Everybody would. Would care about what we're making and what's in the stuff that we make.
This is the stuff that those of us on the inside, we know and get upset about it. The larger public, to your point, buy based off of. They're all, you know, impulse and passion.
And I want that type of purchases that they probably weren't even planning on making that day until they walked into a store and saw something goes, ooh, I want that. And if all of us are honest with ourselves, we all do the same thing even though we know better, right?
How many times have I walked into a store and been like, okay, I'm totally buying that shirt. I don't care what was it, I don't care where it was made, I don't care how much it costs or it should cost, I'm buying that shirt.
And that's really what we have to overcome here. Don't get mad at Kim Kardashian you know, I mean, she gained the system and she built a brand and now she's gonna have a new brand with Nike.
So that's the reality here.
Eoin Comerford
00:27:26.332 - 00:27:57.058
And I think another part of the reaction out there from people is, hey, the whole skims brand and Kim Kardashian's personal brand is based on looks, right? How you look. It's not a performance thing. It's like it's about looks. And whereas Nike is supposedly all about performance.
And it's like the same conversation we have all the time about outdoor industry being a fashion industry. It's like, come on, folks, you don't think Nike has got anything to that?
The product is 100% about performance and nothing to do with how it looks or how it makes you look. Come on.
Colin True
00:27:57.144 - 00:28:16.366
It's ridiculous. Yeah.
And if you care that much, go to womenled Wednesday.com I believe the site is that our friend Cassie Abel was a founder of and you can find lots of women run companies in the apparel sector and other categories as well to shop from and make a real meaningful difference in their lives. And just ignore skims altogether.
Eoin Comerford
00:28:16.478 - 00:28:17.170
Exactly.
Colin True
00:28:17.510 - 00:28:18.462
That's my advice.
Eoin Comerford
00:28:18.606 - 00:28:26.686
And I'm sure almost all of those brands will have a much better sustainability record than you're going to find it anywhere else.
Colin True
00:28:26.758 - 00:28:29.882
They'll be much more in line with your ethics and everybody can be happy.
Eoin Comerford
00:28:29.946 - 00:28:31.882
Yeah, vote with your wallet, people.
Colin True
00:28:32.066 - 00:29:32.122
All right, last story before we we get to the next segment here.
So our friends at Wolverine were in the news and I my thoughts on this were that, you know, any outdoor brand that's grown to a certain point, they kind of exhausted trying to acquire new customers that participate in that brand's core activity. They do the, the time honored thing where they develop their quote unquote lifestyle product and their lifestyle marketing strategy.
And then after a while they become too soft and they get be get criticized for making too many cotton T shirts or flip flops. So then they pivot back. They announced that they're getting back to their roots and the customers that helped them find their original success.
And this goes back and forth forever. For footwear maker Merrell, they just had a year long reset with a focus on hiking.
And now apparently, according to the news this past week, it's time to head back to the mall.
Because in a recent post on SGB CEO Merrell, CEO Chris Hufnagle was quoted as saying, quote, you're going to begin to see and are seeing Merrell show up in a mall from a lifestyle perspective where we just haven't been for years. Oh, and I didn't know that Meryl had left the mall, but now apparently they're going back.
Eoin Comerford
00:29:32.306 - 00:29:39.834
No, in fairness, I mean, Merrill historically has been more of a hike brand. I mean, yes, you've got your jungle mox and all that kind of stuff.
Colin True
00:29:40.002 - 00:29:41.274
But they made our list.
Eoin Comerford
00:29:41.362 - 00:30:13.738
I think that. And they didn't call this out at all in the article.
I think what they're talking about is really being more in the footlockers and the finish lines of the world and JD Sports. Yeah, exactly. So you're seeing them more in the run lifestyle category, I think is where they want to play. I mean, I think it's really interesting.
In the same article they were talking about their super shoe, the Speedark Surge, which is almost 300 bucks. Right. And so the Merrell one. The Merrell one, right. Yeah.
Colin True
00:30:13.754 - 00:30:14.218
Have you seen it?
Eoin Comerford
00:30:14.274 - 00:30:15.706
I have not, no.
Colin True
00:30:15.778 - 00:30:23.022
I saw it in Denver last week and not a great looking shoe. And that's. I swear I'm not just shitting on.
Eoin Comerford
00:30:23.046 - 00:30:24.450
Merrill for the sake.
Colin True
00:30:25.910 - 00:30:33.118
I sat there for a solid 10 minutes just looking at it and it's rough now. I don't know, maybe it was an early sample. I don't know. I don't know if it's in the market.
Eoin Comerford
00:30:33.174 - 00:30:42.526
It's in the market. They said, they said it's so okay then it's terrible. Well, maybe you just aren't the target market for this.
Colin True
00:30:42.598 - 00:30:46.734
I don't think I am. I'm not, I am not a Merrell guy. Let's just be honest. I'll own that.
Eoin Comerford
00:30:46.822 - 00:31:19.088
But so, so if I had to guess, I think that's what it, that, you know. Yes.
So it's leaning more into run lifestyle as opposed to hike lifestyle and having that kind of product to where, yes, we're going to have this, you know, this sort of Halo product with the speed arc or whatever, but then have that, you know, go down from there to where we can compete with the Hokas and the ONS of the world who, let's face it, it's a lot of lifestyle shoes for Hoka and on. So I think that's, that's the play there with, with, with Merrell.
Colin True
00:31:19.104 - 00:32:19.450
Yeah, well, but Merrell's been, I'm joking, but kind of not. I do see them as a softer outdoor brand and, and they are a huge, a big outdoor brand.
So I do expect to see them if I would go to some stores at the mall. So that was, I'm joking, but not really at the same time.
They've Been trying to be a running brand since the, the minimalist craze of the 092010 era with the, was it the Trail Glove? What was the name of their, their, their barefoot running line? I can't remember the name of something like that.
We can look it up, but yeah, I mean, which has never gone away. They're always launching new running shoes to try and compete. And we're going to talk to another Wolverine brand, Saucony, in a second.
But I just, and look, I mean, I guess if, if it's a, if it's a feast or famine thing for them, when they're doing well, it's all doing well. And then when they're down, they're down, which I mean, is probably, you know, the case for a lot of folks. I just, obviously somebody's buying them.
Obviously they're putting, getting them placed different place at different, different retailers because they continue to pursue this, this, this avenue of running. And it probably, maybe it makes sense. I don't know. I just think of them as Jungle Mok and the Moab. And that's what I think of Merrill.
Eoin Comerford
00:32:19.530 - 00:32:26.810
I think it's important for them not to lose that core in hike. But obviously this is their growth factor because HIKE is only going to take them so far.
Colin True
00:32:26.850 - 00:33:02.874
Right, Right. So speaking of RUN and Wolverine, Saucony was also in the news. A lot of, a lot of Wolverine chatter in the news.
So they were down overall 5% in the fourth quarter last year. But also this reporting has them forecasted as a bright spot for Wolverine. They had good performance in places like China.
There's even in the US There was some growth as well. And they also have their own super shoe coming from Saucony. Obviously RUN does seem like there is no ceiling in RUN as a category. If there's a.
It's the one real bright spot probably over the past five years, like RUN continues to grow even if other outdoor categories are down or athletic categories are struggling.
Eoin Comerford
00:33:02.922 - 00:33:12.586
I like to call it RUN Lifestyle because let's face it, most of the quote unquote, RUN product that sold, you know, never goes beyond two miles an hour. I mean, it's. Yeah, right.
Colin True
00:33:12.658 - 00:33:23.894
So I mean, what are you seeing for Saucony? I've always been a Saucony fan. I like, I've always liked their shoes.
They've always fit me well if I was wearing more road running style, piece of footwear. And so maybe this can be a real bright spot for Wolverine over the coming year.
Eoin Comerford
00:33:23.982 - 00:34:45.986
I mean, the one thing I would say is that, that 5% down number is misleading because they changed their model. I think it's in Asia to more of a licensing model.
So, you know, and when you go to more of a licensing model, the only revenue you get to recognize is the licensing revenue. So you don't get to recognize all of the. The product.
So actually, when you take that out of the equation, they were up 7% year over year in the fourth quarter, which is solid. And by market, they were up in the low teens in the US and up over 20% in Europe. So I think that's why they're excited.
They're saying, aha, we've really got something here. We're getting some really good traction.
The brand is starting to resonate, and I think it does talk to the sort of the wider view within run or within run lifestyle is people kind of want to have something a little bit different, which is what Nike's up against in a lot of ways is that Nike just became almost the Kleenex of footwear. And so now with the runs and the Hokas and the Saucony's, it's like, no. Or even the New Balances. No. I want something different.
I don't want to just be one of the herd. I want to have a shoe that maybe sell says that I'm a critical thinker about what I put on my feet.
Colin True
00:34:46.178 - 00:35:14.038
Is Merrill making a super shoe. And I'm using this as an extension because Saucony making their own super shoe.
And maybe we need to have Richard Kicinski back on the podcast at some point. At what time does. At what point do super shoes stop being super shoes? Because, like, everybody has a super shoe now. Right.
The ANU release from Deckers was their super shoe. Right. I mean, is it just. It's becoming now so, like, watered down, like, what, what potentially, if everybody has a super shoe, how many su.
How many shoes are super? Right. It's kind of silly.
Eoin Comerford
00:35:14.194 - 00:35:27.530
I think what makes a super shoe is the price, it seems like. Right. It's just like. Yeah, because for so many years, you just wouldn't think about having a shoe of over 200. Right. That was just.
Colin True
00:35:27.910 - 00:35:30.494
I mean, like, 120 was like, oh, that's pretty expensive.
Eoin Comerford
00:35:30.542 - 00:35:50.394
Exactly. 150 was like, really getting up there really high. And now, I mean, if your budget is 300 bucks, if you're in the 250 to 300 range, you've got.
Got I don't know how many options. Right. It's kind of wild. Yeah. And part of it came, obviously, with the whole Carbon fiber plate scenario, which obviously is an expensive piece of.
Colin True
00:35:50.482 - 00:35:53.466
That's like the marker of the super shoe, right? Is the carbon fiber plate.
Eoin Comerford
00:35:53.498 - 00:36:12.320
Right, Exactly. And so the funny part to me though is I don't know what kind of volume these brands do in the super shoes. Like, who's buying these things?
Because ultimately it's going to shave what, you know, like a minute off your PR in something. Okay. And so.
Colin True
00:36:12.360 - 00:36:13.824
Oh, I think less than that probably.
Eoin Comerford
00:36:13.952 - 00:36:28.256
If I'm doing that right. Like I'm investing 300 bucks in the super shoe to save, to shave. Let's say it's two minutes off my PR and a half marathon. At the end of the day.
Did I achieve anything other than just spend money? I don't know. It's. It's. I guess.
Colin True
00:36:28.368 - 00:36:42.832
What do people spend money on now? Like when you, when we were young, I mean, it was mostly like, what did we buy? Magazines and beer.
I mean, like, you know, is it because kids aren't drinking anymore that they're like, I'll spend $300 on a shoe. Like, our only monthly expense is my phone. And then I can buy expensive shoes? Like, what's going on?
Eoin Comerford
00:36:42.856 - 00:37:03.804
Do you really think though that kids are buying super shoes?
Or is it all, you know, Gen Xers out there just looking to, to basically say out of this, I'm running as fast today as I did when I was in my 30s, you know, whatever the hell. I don't know. I'm not, you know, I haven't been running. You know, I blew out my knee and so it's. Running is no longer in my future.
Colin True
00:37:03.972 - 00:37:24.604
Well, good on you, Wolverine. I'm glad to see you look, you know, for as much as I'm making fun, like, good to see them healthy, I'm rooting for Saucony.
Would like to see that brand. It's fun to see them back in the news. Asics again, I saw them in the news. They had a good year.
Like, so the kind of classic running brand's doing okay. It's not just all HOKA and Altra and you know, the kind of the nordis of the world. There's a, there's still life in the old guard. Yeah, absolutely.
Eoin Comerford
00:37:24.652 - 00:37:28.700
And Wolverine is a Michigan based company like myself.
Colin True
00:37:28.780 - 00:37:29.308
There we go.
Eoin Comerford
00:37:29.364 - 00:38:29.842
So pull in.
For those guys, it does seem like they've kind of found bottom a little bit from a sales perspective and really turned things around in terms of margins.
I mean, a big part of this whole strategy was they're one of the few companies that had the courage to Say, you know what, we are making too much shit and we're basically force feeding it to the market, we're force feeding it to retailers, we're force feeding it to consumers and everything has to, every sale has to be driven by a discount and we're killing ourselves and we're killing the brand and the planet, you could argue.
And so they cut way back I, you know, 30, 40% in sales, right, to get to an equilibrium that was healthy and sustainable both financially and environmentally. And now they're at that point and they've rebuilt the balance sheet, they've rebuilt the margin profile and now they're building back up again.
So I think kudos to them for taking a pretty responsible approach that we're not seeing replicated throughout the industry trying.
Colin True
00:38:29.866 - 00:39:48.314
To decide if that's like Michigan Homerism going on here right now or no. You're right. You're. You're absolutely right. And that needs to be applauded. Even if I don't like your shoes. Good job, Wolverine.
All right, that whole part, all of you, everything you just heard was brought to you by Garage Growing Gear, who is your hub for all things ultralight. Excuse me, I'm, I'm misreading the the, the, the copy here. Garage. Garage Growing Gear is your hub for all things ultralight. Backpacking gear.
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Always find interesting things over on Gman Lloyd Bogle's website. You gotta check it out. Out. Okay, we're going to do something a little different for the parting shot today everyone.
I'm going to give Owen my thoughts on something that I saw the other day and I want to hear what have him to sort of weigh in on my point of view. I maybe the parting shot is sort of evolving to be a hot take that has to be approved or disapproved by the other rock fight co host.
Maybe that'll be like we'll do like a round table. You bring, bring something then we'll be.
Eoin Comerford
00:39:48.322 - 00:39:49.466
Like, okay, all right.
Colin True
00:39:49.538 - 00:39:55.100
We all sign off on it. Like, yeah, good party shot or no, you're out. We're like, we're kicking to the curb on this one.
Eoin Comerford
00:39:55.210 - 00:39:57.060
That parting shot missed the target.
Colin True
00:39:57.360 - 00:41:59.334
I like this. This is good. Let's see how this goes.
All right, so this past weekend, I opened up YouTube and I saw in my suggested feed a new video from Patagonia called the path to removing PFAs. And I've linked that in the show notes. If you haven't seen it, go check it out.
But in this video, they detail the steps that Patagonia has taken to remove PFAs from their product line.
Like many Patagonia videos, it's well made and shows members of their product and development team testing various fabrics and describing the technicalities of taking on such a task as removing PFAs from your line after so long. At the end of the video, they say that Starting in spring 2025, all of their products will be made without intentionally added PFAs.
The reason why this video is our parting shot today, though, isn't anything about that. It's the work this video does to position Patagonia as a brand leader on this front, which they certainly have not been.
There's a ton of nits to pick in this video, but the biggest one for me is the reality that PFAS has been a known problem since 2008. It's a problem that only a handful of outdoor brands have been publicly working on to address since then.
So specifically, Fjall Raven declared their intention to limit or eliminate PFAS in 2009, and Houdini announced that they were going to be pfas free in 2018. Keen did the same in 2022. Those are sort of the recognized three big names that were ahead of this.
So my parting shot isn't at Patagonia for doing the good work.
It's that this video positions them as a leader on this front when they are, in fact, a decade behind and frankly, right there with all of the other brands who are now required to remove PFAs from their apparel if they want to sell their goods in California, thanks to recently passed legislation that demands them to do so. Which is the first domino, and hopefully that being the case everywhere.
But the bottom line is this video feels like a brand trying to maintain their reputation as the environmental leader of our industry. To which I say, I think you should just acknowledge the truth.
Mention the other brands that were ahead of you on this one, pat them on the back and tell Us what you are also doing, instead of just trying to say, look, we are still leading here. We are the ones who have figured this out. Which is really the vibe I got from watching this video. So, Owen, what were your thoughts, man?
Eoin Comerford
00:41:59.502 - 00:44:09.520
I think it's a valid criticism because they really haven't been a leader here. It's really just this year, just now that they're basically PFAS free, which just happens to be when the legislation comes into play. Coincidence?
Maybe, maybe not. But. But in the video they actually make the point that, well, we would have done this anyway, even if it wasn't.
We weren't forced into it by legislation. It's like, okay, cool, then why didn't you. Then why didn't you do it? Why didn't you do it? You know, five years ago?
I think a couple of things are interesting. One is, I think they had a false start because they went from C12.
And not to get all technical here, but basically part of the way that these DWR durable water repellent chemicals work is by these long chains of carbon. Long carbon chains. So they were like C12, I think, was the original.
And so I think they had a false start and they went to C6 or C8, so shorter chain, which was thought to be less damaging to the environment than C12. And then they then ultimately figured, actually, no, it's all bad. Basically, you've got to be C0. So I think they had a bit of a false start there.
But a big part of the video focuses on just how many tests and fabrics and things they tested over the years, which is like, okay, cool.
And the point being that they wanted to make sure that they could really replicate the performance of PFAs with non PFAs waterproof treatment, which is, okay, cool. But obviously others managed to do that. You know, in the case of Houdini seven years before. Right.
So either Houdini, the product that Houdini had, wasn't performing as well, or that was and just Patagonia wasn't willing to use that, or maybe step up to the cost of whatever that solution was. Right? Potentially.
But I mean, if really, if you're the brand that is putting the environment first and the trade off is 5% performance for way better impact on the environment, shouldn't you have been the brand that was most willing to make that trade off early in the process? I don't know. That just seems like the way it would be.
Colin True
00:44:10.460 - 00:45:00.816
That's my point of view on this. And that's why I think it was almost I like to look at this as a missed opportunity for them. It's like they felt this felt like a defensive video.
Like we have to sort of like we're still going to puff our chest out and say that we're leading here when really the right thing to do would have just been kind of the cop to it Again, because you're exactly right. You've been a billion dollar brands for going brand for being on a decade now.
If anybody had the opportunity to be able to afford maybe segments of line like here's our PFAS free line that's not quite as good, but we still have a few things that have the old stuff on it while we're working on that could have been a whole story in of itself.
I just, I think that's, that's, that's to me what I'm struggling with the most is because, you know, if you say you're the leader in this and everybody hides behind the we want the same performance thing, REI did it too. Well, our customers demand it. It's like, no, your customers aren't demanding it. It's harder and more expensive for you to develop this.
And I just really have a tough time squaring.
Eoin Comerford
00:45:00.848 - 00:45:09.264
And your whole supply chain is built around it and you don't want to piss off Gore Tex. I mean, yeah, there was a whole bunch of reasons not to do it, but the one reason was for the environment.
Colin True
00:45:09.352 - 00:45:10.176
Absolutely, totally.
Eoin Comerford
00:45:10.208 - 00:45:54.530
And you know, I guess my point too is instead of maybe producing this slick video, how about, I don't know, coming out against what's happening with the Department of the Interior. Like where are you on that? Okay, so would like to hear that too. Yeah, right, so.
And that's one of the things I've loved about Patagonia is that they have not been afraid to come out against things and to be in politicians faces and to actively talk about voting down the politicians that are doing the things to damage or not protect the environment. I don't know, it's odd that we're not hearing anything from them in possibly the most important time when people need to stand up.
So yeah, it's a head scratcher.
Colin True
00:45:55.510 - 00:46:43.090
I agree with you there as well. I mean they mentioned it and I cringe every time I hear it like, oh, our mission is to save the planet. Planet.
It's like, well, all of these things fall under that header. Like you should have been ahead on PFAs. You should be denouncing anyone who's trying to ruin public lands.
You should be denouncing people who are violating human rights or taking jobs away from people needlessly. These are all things to me that would fall under the banner of saving the planet. And I would like to hear more from that now.
Matt Dwyer, who's in the video, who heads up the product development arm of Patagonia, I reached out to him. He and I are going to chat this week.
I'm hoping maybe we bring him on the pod, kind of talk a little bit more about it, maybe get a little more context from those guys. I think I definitely would like to hear them. Hopefully he'll come on. We can address some of these things with.
He's on the product side, on the policy side. That's not going to be his expertise.
But maybe we can get somebody else from Patagonia to come on, because I think it'd be great to hear from someone there, maybe. Hey, Ryan Geller, you want to come on the podcast?
Eoin Comerford
00:46:43.170 - 00:46:43.554
Absolutely.
Colin True
00:46:43.602 - 00:46:45.922
You're welcome. Open share. Let's do it.
Eoin Comerford
00:46:46.026 - 00:47:10.290
And again, I think we're only calling this out just because Patagonia is recognized as the leader in our industry, like, unanimously recognized. And kudos to them. They have been that person and they have driven that over the years. Love the brand, love what they've done there, there.
But you gotta be consistent. You've gotta stick to those principles.
Colin True
00:47:10.870 - 00:47:34.228
That's it. This is not about the good work that team has done to remove PFAs. It's that just don't tell us that you're leading here. You didn't lead this one.
And honestly, you might have a good reason why come and talk to us about it. But just it was a little disingenuous. Let's be honest about where we are. Let's give these other brands the credit.
They saw what was coming and they took care of it. All right, so you approved this parting shot on Target.
Eoin Comerford
00:47:34.284 - 00:47:35.028
Bullseye.
Colin True
00:47:35.124 - 00:48:32.400
Yeah. All right. Hope they get a sound effect in there. All right, well, we can wrap it up there today. Owen, we can come. Everybody listening.
Come back on Wednesday to hear Justin Hausman and I run through outdoor adventure headlines. And on Friday, for probably going to be a hot take this week from me, check out the latest Rock Fight podcast.
The latest podcast on the Rock Fight Podcast network. Open container new episode goes up tomorrow on Tuesday. Check that out from Duck Shnitz Bond. The Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight llc.
Our producer today was me, because Dave is apparently producing viruses this morning. Art direction provided by Sarah Wixy Wixerson, the wixiest Wix in the wild. Wix gensert. That's an inside joke for Owen Comerford. I'm Colin True.
Thanks for listening. And guys, he's back to take us out.
Krista makes one of the lead singers in Less Than Jake, who just announced their summer tour this summer has two stops in San Diego. I get to see Lesson Jake twice this summer and he's here to sing the rock fight fight song. We'll see you next time. Rock fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:48:40.340 - 00:49:27.900
Welcome to the rock fight where we speak our truth slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree we talk about human powered out outdoor activities and pick bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture music, the latest movie reviews ideas that aim for the head this is where we speak our truth this is where we speak our truth Rock fight rock fight rock fight welcome to the rock fight Rock fight rock fight welcome to the rock fight like rock light rock fight Rock light rock light rock fight welcome to the rock fight Rock fight Rock fight.
Eoin Comerford
00:49:30.120 - 00:49:32.600
Rock fight.