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Today on THE ROCK FIGHT (an outdoor podcast that aims for the head) we're going there.
Enter: Teresa Baker.
Teresa has been a force for change in the outdoor industry when it comes to DEI and environmental initiatives for the past 7 years. She founded the In Solidarity Project to build a more diverse outdoor industry with a core component of her work being the Outdoor CEO Pledge which is aimed at those in positions of power within the outdoor industry to create change as well as the Outdoorist Oath which is a commitment for outdoor enthusiasts to support inclusion as well as our planet.
On the heels of the announcement that Camber Outdoors is closing up next month, it was the perfect time to chat with Teresa.
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Episode Transcript
Colin (00:00):
Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak out truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True, and as you can tell, my voice is shot from yet another summertime cold. The rest assured that when we get to my conversation today, it will sound better because today on the heels of the announcement that Canberra Outdoors is shutting down, we're taking a look at how the outdoor industry is doing when it comes to inclusivity with Theresa Baker. But before we get to that, you can make my throat feel way better by rating the rock play Wherever you're listening, those five star ratings go a long way toward growing the show, and that's why we always ask you to do it. Also, be sure to follow and rate gear and beer, the newest addition to the Rock Fight Podcast Network. And now that you've proven your rock fight fandom, let's start the show.
Chris DeMakes (00:44):
Fight, fight, fight.
Colin (00:48):
There's a lot of crossover in the topics that garner the most criticism within the outdoor space. Those topics aren't only trade shows and what the hell happened to outside magazine. Those topics are mainly the continuing issue of sustainably produced products and a lack of diversity among the faces who play outside and work in the outdoor industry. A few weeks back, Theresa Baker hit me up on LinkedIn and said she'd like to come on the rock fight. And Theresa has been a force for change in the outdoor industry when it comes to DEI in environmental issues for the past seven years. She founded the in Solidarity Project to build a more diverse outdoor industry with a core component of her work being the outdoor CEO pledge, which is aimed at those in positions of power within the outdoor industry to create change, as well as the outdoor oath, which is a commitment for outdoor enthusiasts to support inclusion as well as our planet. And the lesson here is if Theresa Baker wants to come on your show and join you and producer Dave to pick a fight with what needs to get better in the outdoor industry, you always say yes. So welcome back to the Rock Fight where today we're talking about inclusion in the outdoor industry with Theresa Baker.
(01:54):
Alright, well, we're joined today by Theresa Baker, who's co-founder of the Outdoors Oath, founder of the In Solidarity Project. She's the creator of the outdoor CEO diversity pledge, a leading voice in the outdoor industry when it comes to improving the challenges we face when it comes to diversity and climate. Theresa, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for coming on.
Teresa (02:13):
Awesome. Thank you. I appreciate you all having me.
Colin (02:16):
How many podcasts do you do a year?
Teresa (02:19):
Let's just start there. Oh my God, I'll say at least six. Oh,
Colin (02:25):
It's not too bad. I thought you
Teresa (02:26):
Might, it's not too bad. Yeah, it's not too bad. Once I start speaking truth, people are like, no, we can't have her on the show, so
Colin (02:37):
Oh wow. They turn you away.
Teresa (02:40):
Yeah, they're like, it's way too honest. You're too honest. No. Wait,
Colin (02:44):
How many of those are outdoor podcasts? Are they mostly outside the industry?
Teresa (02:49):
It depends. Some historical podcasts, I do a lot of history stuff, so people invite me to talk about history, but people are known to reach out to me for outdoor stuff.
Colin (03:02):
Well, I want to start by just clearing out and letting you cook for a second. Usually one of these shows I tend to have a real take when we come into these conversations, but you initially reached out to me about coming on the show and this premise that in a follow-up email, you titled Let People Try, which I thought was just a great subject line of an email and the basis of which was that the outdoor industry is largely frozen with fear when it comes to the topic of inclusion. So I guess what did you mean by let people try? Where do you think things stand today in the outdoor industry when it comes to inclusion?
Teresa (03:33):
Yeah, I think people want to do something around these issues, around these topics, but they don't know what to do and they fear saying something or doing something wrong and being called out by the public. And I'm like, if we don't let people try, we don't know what's going to work. So my philosophy is let people try fail and try again. And my hope is that society, we, especially the outdoor industry, can support that work, that attempt.
Colin (04:08):
Yeah, I mean I reflect that, right? I told you I'm a little nervous being the middle aged straight white guy who's the bitch, the avatar for the outdoor industry of the skinny white guy in the mountain. And I don't want to just be like, oh, I'm having a black woman on to talk about DEI issues. You know what I mean? So it is that kind of, it's a little, I don't know. I see why the fear exists and I think that's why a lot of people who look like me running the outdoor industry, a lot of woke white dudes who were like, oh, we can't say that out loud.
Teresa (04:39):
No, I was in Reno, I don't know, a little over a month ago and ran into, oh my gosh, the guy from Conservation Alliance O'Connor Connor I ran
Colin (04:54):
Into who just announced he's res resigning, he's leaving his
Teresa (04:56):
Post. Yeah, that's their loss. I agree. I'll just say that. That's their loss. He's an amazing human being and I look forward to the work he's going to do moving ahead. But he and I talked and he was like, Hey, have you talked to the guy over there at that podcast? I'm like, no. He's like, you need to, he talks about as much shit as you. I'm like, no, that's not possible. That's not possible. So I was like, let me reach out and see if he'd be open to having me come onto his podcast. So here we are.
Colin (05:33):
Well, I love that. I mean, that was a founding principle. In fact, actually, I remember I sort of jokingly out to you in an outdoor media summit 18 months ago because he put a thing out like, Hey, we're looking for keynote speakers. The name of my keynote was going to be calling Bullshit on the Outdoor Industry. Oh,
Teresa (05:51):
That's awesome. Love that. I need that in a T-shirt right now.
Colin (05:56):
Well, there's just, we're so well intended and everyone's so earnest about the love for Why We Got It. I want to kind of talk to you about that too. But it is this thing that becomes, it truly is a passion that we all want to do, but then I think that does brings up that fear thing that we don't want to be too critical. We don't want to say the thing out loud that we're all kind of thinking, and it was a founding pillar of the show of like, Hey, how we can have opinions, but also I'm open to someone calling bullshit on my opinion. Come on and tell me that I'm wrong. So I think that's a really important thing to do if you're ever going to move something forward. And if there's two big problems in the industry, it's probably on sustainability and it's on inclusion. So those are two things where we probably do need to get a little loud,
Teresa (06:44):
And I think people are trying, there are people that are trying, but then once they try and it's like it doesn't feel comfortable, then they pull back. So we have to find a way to support one another in this work, or we're not going to make progress on matters of sustainability, environmental protection or inclusion, all of which are vital to us being in these outdoor spaces. So we have to keep pushing ahead no matter how difficult it is.
Colin (07:18):
So I'm going to go out on a limb and say we're probably in the same, we're Gen Xers, let's just say that.
Teresa (07:23):
Okay.
Colin (07:23):
Is that about right?
Teresa (07:24):
Let's pretend. Sure. Okay, sure.
Colin (07:27):
But I'm curious of your take on where we are today versus where we were as a black woman coming up in an outdoor space, which I mean I remember being with Darren Josie when we were working together at Polar Tech and joking about being an outdoor retailer and he's like, Hey, I saw one other black guy. He was so excited and it was tough. So as you kind of look at things where we are today versus maybe when you started recreating, how do you feel about just kind of level set where we are right now, just broadly speaking, how do you view the industry and the outdoors?
Teresa (08:00):
I think we have made progress. When I first went to Outdoor Retailer about seven, eight years ago, I was literally shocked. I had been working on these issues of inclusion, but walking into outdoor retailer and seeing floors of nothing but white male, white female, I was like, I don't know what to do. And I had people coming up to me and they were in tears, other people of color, they were in tears saying, where do we even start? And I didn't have a response, so we just started walking around and talking to people. And I can honestly say that as things stand today in the outdoor industry, it looks a lot different. It feels a lot different. So I think we are making progress. That's not to say that we need to stop because there's work to be done.
Colin (09:03):
So when you look at the landscape today, and there was the news this past week about Canberra Outdoors closing up Shop as of next month, which is, I dunno, you look back, it's a really interesting story with them. 96, I remember when I came into industry was around 2005 and the Outdoor Industry Women's Coalition being a thing they rebrand to CAN in 2016. What have organizations like that led to kind of where we are today? What has been the impact of organizations like that and what do you think the legacy of Canberra will be as they close up?
Teresa (09:36):
Yeah, I want to be mindful and respectful of the history of OIWC and why it started in the first place. I think there are amazing, I kick ass women in the outdoor industry who need to have an organization like OIWC was, I think I wish something like that could come back. C has always been about workplace inclusion and that has always been what they preached. They weren't really into DEI as it relates to the work I and others do. It was always around the workplace, which is needed. What will their legacy be? I don't know because I wasn't really involved with Chamber in that regard. Of course there were some issues and my hope is that what people remember about Chamber and OIWC is that their intentions around women and the workplace were genuine. And I hope that that's the legacy versus any other issues that came up with Chamber over the years.
Colin (10:56):
Yeah, I thought, one thing I thought was interesting, and we mentioned in our episode that went up earlier this week was their CEO, Tiffany Smith mentioning the folks that they were looking to pick up the mantle groups like Outdoor Afro and Latino Outdoors. And one thing I thought of when I was reading that is that a lot of the organizations she mentioned were, I mean relatively new, right? With all maybe, I'm not sure exactly, but the last 10 years, let's say the last decade, a lot more of these groups coming up kind of aligning with the timeline you're talking about with when you first started going to or right. So how do you view that kind of landscape of these organizations? Will they pick up that mantle? I mean, is there a mantle even to pick up or is that just really the good work has really only been done in the last decade or so?
Teresa (11:38):
Yeah, I don't think there's a mantle to be picked up. I think the work that's being done is being done genuinely with groups like Latino Outdoors, like individuals, Jenny Bruso, Jose Gonzalez, cj Golden, Scott Briscoe. I think people are doing this work, but what got me into reaching out to brands and calling the industry in not out calling them in was that I wasn't seeing us in marketing ads. I wasn't seeing us on the covers of outdoor magazines. And that's vital that if we want to be seen as part of the outdoor industry, we have to be seen. And that's the hope as I move forward in this work is that people continue to showcase underrepresented communities so that we can be part of the conversations on sustainability and environmental protection.
Colin (12:44):
It does seem, it's interesting to look back on the last just even four years, a lot of promises made coming out of I got a 2020, right? And the movement we had coming out of there, a lot of brands quick to jump on board Instagram posts. I think to exactly what you just said, I do feel like there is more diversity in terms of how brands are marketing themselves, at least outwardly speaking in terms of what you see on websites and in advertising and who they're working with on athletes and influencers and things like that. Which good should have been happening before it's happening now. But again, I'm guessing behind the scenes, so probably a lot of plaid shirts and white folks working at these brands and now we're starting to hear about, there's been some quiet layoffs and departments eliminated, and we talked a little bit about this on the Cambridge topic on Sunday.
(13:34):
It's like, look, there's realities of doing business and business by all accounts is not terrific right now in the outdoor space, but it doesn't make it worse. If you're quietly doing this, you are making a big splash saying, oh, George Floyd and Breonna Taylor, and like, oh no, we got to do something and now it's four years later, no one's really looking and we're kind of strapped for cash, so why don't we just sort of not do that anymore? We'll come back to it down the road. I dunno. How do we get to your point, how do we get to the point where we get these brands that say the quiet part out loud?
Teresa (14:04):
Yeah, I think it's a shitty reality that people will use someone like Mr. George Floyd who was murdered as a jumping off point for their work around diversity. Do not post Black Lives Matter posters and comments. And I go look at your leadership and they're all white. Or if I look at your board and they're all white, how does Black Lives matter to me seeing nothing but whiteness. I understand people need help and I understand retention is something that people have to deal with, but don't bullshit me. Don't bullshit society thinking we don't see you, we see you and it's not real. I would much rather you say, I don't know what to do and seek help than to do fake stuff like that. Trying to make society think that you're cool or you're hip or you're in. Yeah, I would just say to every brand out there, never post again about how you care. Show me, let's not have the conversation anymore. Show me. And that will speak volume.
Colin (15:23):
What's the status of the outdoors Oath today versus when it kicked off? What is the engagement with brands on that for you?
Teresa (15:33):
It's still there. Chris and I wanted to do five years.
Colin (15:39):
Chris Perkins, right? Chris Perkins in that outdoor rec round table,
Teresa (15:42):
Right?
Colin (15:42):
Former life white guest. Just want to put it out there. Good guy, Chris. Yeah.
Teresa (15:46):
Cool, cool, cool. Yeah, five years was last year, so we made it to five years with the pledge. It's still in place. The brands that are a part of it, I think it's at 183, they're still listed. We've removed people over the years. Didn't make a big deal about it. But you can't point to the pledge and say, see, I care, we signed the pledge. No, if you're not doing the work, you were removed. But there are some amazing companies like Brooks running, for instance, that are doing amazing work. And I'm happy for these companies that have remained committed over the years. Granted gear with Rob and David, two kick ass individuals come from a small company, but they have done more for the work around diversity than any brand hands down. And people don't realize that, but they are amazing, the brands that have stayed committed. Amazing. And I'm happy that Chris and I were able to pull this off for five years.
Colin (16:58):
Is there a correlation between who you see the most engaged and who their ownership is? Right? Because you think about, I talk, I go on and on about the big corporate publicly traded companies that own a lot of our legacy brands and hey, good for you for getting the payday, but also now you've moved from a passion-driven, we want enable people to get outdoors. I came up with an idea and started a brand on it to now it is. Yeah, you're just the same as any other big company. And values are easy, much easier to compromise when it's a boardroom decision versus, well, this is my company and this is what I believe in. And to your point about granite, that makes sense. Right? So do you see a correlation there between the smaller, more engaged brands and then not to call people out, but the Columbias the big owner brands,
Teresa (17:53):
I think who you are as a human being will show and how you do business. I think some of the smaller brands like Granite Gear, they can do and say things that some of the larger brands can't. Shocked at some of the
Colin (18:14):
Things. Yeah, exactly. Dave,
Teresa (18:16):
I'm shocked at some of the things that Rob will say. I'm like, damn, if the FCC were listening, you'd be banned. I'm just shocked at some of the things he said. But it's good. It shows brands coming up, new brands coming up that you can do things differently and make an impact versus some of the larger companies who can't take chances like that. And I understand both. I think what Patagonia does around the environment is amazing. I think like the VF companies, some of the things they do amazing, some of them are part of the ODA, the Outdoor Diversity Alliance. So people are trying, but I still think they're not doing enough. There's more to be done
Colin (19:11):
Because there's an accountability on this. And this is where it crosses over with sustainability as well because largely speaking, especially apparel brands, there's always more that can be done in terms of driving innovation towards circularity and these sorts of things. But if it's not resulting something to the bottom line, a lot of those actions don't get taken. And I think the same thing, it's probably easy, essentially you've removed some folks from the Outdoors Oath. It's like, well, who just signed on thinking like, oh man, we're going to sign on to this. It's going to make us look at, we care about black people, put our name on the list. And so what's the accountability? You can't rely on consumers, you can't rely on, it's not enough, right? It's like, it's sort of like how do you call people? How do we shine a light to make sure that the good work continues to happen the way we want it to happen?
Teresa (19:59):
And I think that's important. I think it's important that we speak to the companies that are doing amazing work because a lot of people look to the outdoor industry who aren't in the outdoor industry. There's work that needs to be done. And I think that some of these brands, we as the public, we need to help these brands feel it's okay to speak up. We're in the political season right now and there's a lot of stuff that will be said, but I think brands that are willing to do the right thing and lose customers knowing that they're going to lose customers, I think we should uplift them and support them so that we can show up and coming people that it's okay to have a conscience to do the right thing, to speak to humanity and make money. That's cool. But I think like Ben and Jerry, they've, I don't even know who the hell's leading that group, but they saying do anything, but as individuals, we need to support these companies that are speaking up and doing the right thing, period.
Colin (21:20):
Not to be cynical though, but I feel like who is that though? Who are the brands that are actually saying and doing the right thing?
Producer Dave (21:28):
I'd like to even peel it back just from the brands. What we're getting at is this fundamental disconnect that we feel with the industry itself. The industry was founded by these people that you're talking about, these individuals in these brands and the idea of conservatism of the environment and the products that they made and the activities that they did were not interchangeable. They were one. And so you have this industry that was founded on beliefs and this idea of doing something a little bit differently than the way everybody else did things. That's what this was founded on. And so as we've seen the corporate pressure, the venture capital move, we've seen these brands separated from their founders. We've talked about the disconnect from a performance product perspective for a long time as they've gotten away from their customers. It's also they've gotten away from how to express your values without giving a shit what other people think.
(22:24):
That was a pride point of this industry. And we've moved away from that as part of doing business. And I think this is an issue. They weren't paying attention obviously back in the seventies in that same way. But now we have on our plate and we're kind of stuck with our, wait a minute, this is what we believe we're supposed to be doing, but we're not. Right? And so that's just almost a paralyzed with for all those reasons you said of get in the way of that. But I do think it causes that greater disconnect when we see an industry like that. We call it earnest. Well, we believe we were founded in a way to do business better. And then it comes out with the statistics or just kind of the fact is that, well, maybe it's just not as great as we thought we were, but how do we get that back?
Teresa (23:12):
Yeah, I think profit changes people and when money comes into play, it's like we want more. We want more. It's like all this shit they create. Every month I see a new product comes out, I'm like, do we really need another fucking backpack? Do we really need another pair of hiking shoes? Do we really? And that bugs me to no end. I'm like, stop talking about sustainability because not showing that you care, but I can words out of
Colin (23:50):
My mouth.
Teresa (23:51):
Yeah, I can't pretend that I've been around forever in the outdoor industry and I know how companies started and their foundations, but I know that a lot of it is we don't want people to hate us. We want to sell more stuff than brand X. So we're not going to say too many things to piss people off. So if we could just give people that power back to speak their truth and support that with our dollars, I think we can have a better outdoor industry. And I think this industry right now is so splintered and I want to find a way to bring it back because we can't be so divided that we don't give a shit about what this group is doing. It's just about us. We need to find a way to unite the outdoor industry.
Colin (24:47):
Where do you think that starts? Blank check, blank slate, whatever. How would you start that process? What would you do if you're now the czar of the outdoors, just a new pointed office by future President Harris, where do you start
Teresa (25:07):
By bringing people together? We can't have a conversation without it ending and me hating you because you don't agree with me. And it's not just an outdoor industry thing, it's a society thing. As humans, we can't stand people who don't share the same opinion as us. And we are ready to fight to the death to defend our opinion. Even if we're wrong and we've been proven to be wrong, we will fight to the death. So we need to find a way to get people in the room with differences and talk through this. We're human beings, period. We are that before we are outdoors, we have to be human. And our young people are watching us, your kids and your grandkids. They're watching. They're watching what you do and they're watching what you say. That's the legacy that you will lead to them leave to them. So we need to say, look, we have differences, but I'm willing to come sit in this room and talk with you. Like this podcast. I'm sure we don't share all the same values and that's cool, but I'm going to respect you as a human being. And that is the beginning of everything is respect. And if we can do that, the OR or show and OIA, they've gone their separate ways. So there are opportunities right now. Yeah,
Colin (26:40):
Absolutely.
Teresa (26:41):
What can we do differently to bring people together? That's your responsibility. That's Kent's responsibility. My responsibility. We all play a role in doing better.
Colin (26:53):
The event thing's an interesting one because we've talked a lot about events over the last month or so, and I think for good reason one and people, if you want to get upset about talking about it, to me it's the topic that comes up the most. Anytime I'm talking to anybody in the outdoor industry, it's like, did you go to the show? Did you go to that show? What should we do? That kind of thing. And the one thing conclusion I came to about one reason why or ended up with so many problems is because there was never a consensus about what to do. They do these surveys afterwards and there was never a consensus about what people wanted and they tried to make everybody happy. And that just led to more and more problems. And one reason why I feel like the summer or show was successful this year was because they stripped it way back and made it all about the retail experience.
(27:37):
I also think so that's great. That gives it a purpose. I've been pretty critical about outside magazine or outside, outside Inc. On this show. And I think it's been deserved in a lot of cases. I will say, I'll always give them credit though. It sounds like at least the musical fest portion of the outside festival was really well received. And I think to your point, that just showed, here's a gathering point, but also it makes me nervous because they don't make a lot of good decisions. I feel like over at outside and I think they're going to grow the wrong parts, just focus on the one thing that really worked. I'm curious what they're going to do. And so I think you're right. I think the gathering piece of it is a huge opportunity and it does. It's going in the right direction even if it's kind of slowly as it's happening.
(28:26):
But yeah, it is an interesting thing for as much as we all have in common, and I think this comes back to some of the BEA report and we had Jess Turner and Chris on from the outdoor rec round table talking about the built-in biases towards each other in the outdoor community and it's like, oh man, we got the snowmobilers and the skiers together and that was a big win. And you think, God, isn't that ridiculous? They all like to go out on snow stuff. They have common interests and so these silos that we've sort of built within each other that like, well, we're human powered and we're motorized, we can't cross over. That's just more evidence of the things that need to change in order for things to actually get done.
Teresa (29:04):
Yeah, I think it just goes to show the division in human beings for some of the oddest reasons, which I will never understand, but I can't concern myself with that. I have to stay the course of trying to bring people together, period. I don't care what sport you're engaged in, climbing, hiking, cycling, whatever it is, I want us to come together. I want us to unite because this country is so divided right now and it's ugly and it will only get worse as the closer we get to November. So what can we do now? What can we as human beings who care about the environment, the planet, us as beings, what can we do right now to get to better? Because it has to start somewhere. And if it doesn't start with you and it doesn't start with me, we are now part of the problem. So I'm taking that responsibility. We
Colin (30:07):
Could go get drunk. You want to do that? Oh
Teresa (30:09):
My God, I don't drink, but
Colin (30:13):
I'm thinking about it. Are
Teresa (30:14):
You? I don't need alcohol to upset folks. So I'm just about having fun and bringing folks together. Yeah.
Producer Dave (30:26):
I'd like to dig in a little bit, there's a couple things, a couple of bigger issues here even or related issues. One, we talk about sustainability is an issue over here and we talk about inclusion over here. How do those topics converge? I see them as absolutely related in terms of the way we approach climate change and maybe the urgency on some of these issues would be greater if you had a different worldview or perspective. And so how do these issues combine?
Teresa (31:01):
I don't understand why they were separated from the beginning. When we separate people from the planet, that's the problem. People from underrepresented communities, communities of color should always be part of the conversation around environmental protection that's visible because we are having these conversations, they're just siloed. We need to find a way to bring them together. I care you care. It's not like climate change is going to affect my community and skip over yours. That's not how it works. So we should be combining these efforts. We look to our government agencies for leadership. They don't know what the hell they're doing either clearly. So why not bring these voices to the table who have historically been left out and see what they bring. We've seen what has gotten us to where we are now. Why not try something different before things get worse? So we should have never been separated. Inclusion and environmental protection should always be combined as an effort as we move forward.
Colin (32:26):
I think the silos thing is an interesting point. When David and I produced another podcast a few years back and we had Earl Hunter on, and it is interesting hearing just the story in the cultural upbringings right about, it wasn't just that, hey, growing up in a black community, we just didn't go outside. We were actively told that you don't go outside. What are you doing going outside? And there'd be hurdles that certain people have to overcome and that's such a simple thing in an understandable thing when you hear it. But to your point, those silos, those kind of walls being just built up, not even intentionally in a lot of cases just by wherever you grew up or wherever you happen to live or whatever. And so those stories become even more important in terms of breaking those walls down and creating a level of understanding. And then you have to go through the process too of then exposing people to what can be great about going outside to get to develop that passion to continue to do it. That's difficult. That is
Teresa (33:21):
Hard. Yeah. I mean, historically people of color, black people have been told this space isn't for you. There were signs up that would say out in nature in our national parks for whites only, and that sticks with people over generations and it's like, oh, well we weren't allowed to go there. My grandparents weren't allowed to go there, so that's not a place for me to go. The good thing about the National Parks Service and state parks, especially California State Parks, is they're telling these stories and making it clear that this was part of our history and that's good so that people can start researching on their own and understanding why certain people have a hesitancy about going to some of these places, but the fact that we are showing these images of people of color being outdoors, that's the good piece of it. It's like despite what history said, we are making progress.
(34:27):
We are in these spaces. It's not about let's invite people of color. People of color have always been in these spaces. When you look at people like Harriet Tubman and how she led people through these wooded areas with people chasing them, they were running for their very lives, and yet she was able to navigate by understanding the landscape of the places she was in. We've been here, we're not new to these spaces, so let's tell these stories so that we can make people feel that, yes, these spaces belong to you too. And I applied the National Park Service and I applied California state parks for the work they're doing around telling these stories.
Producer Dave (35:17):
I was just going to say, future outdoor participation we know is predicated often on your past experience and without that built-in network to create these experiences at a younger age, what are the things that we can do to try to flip that script? You just hit on representation in the outdoor media as being one of those. Is there anything else that even that brands can do substantively to start to ensure that we have more people in a diverse tent experiencing the outdoors younger, to help build this affinity?
Teresa (35:52):
I think being intentional and the people you reach out to work with. I know some of these conversations are difficult to have, but you have to be intentional. I don't care who I have to reach out to. I reached out to this guy right here and said,
Colin (36:10):
Thanks Connor.
Teresa (36:12):
Big mistake. Let's do a podcast. It has to be intentional. I'll go into spaces and I'm the only black person, the only black woman, and I'm comfortable because I know who I am and I know what I bring. These brands have to feel the same. It may be awkward, but once you start to build authentic relationships with people, it'll become easier. But you have to cross that line and say, I'm going to reach out to this group, to these affinity groups and welcome them to have a conversation and see how we can build collaborations as we move forward.
Producer Dave (36:53):
So what's your reply to brands that are going to be afraid of the performative accusations or like you said, do it wrong, is the answer just buck up and deal with it and move through it? I mean, it's a natural part of this process.
Teresa (37:10):
You have to, if you don't, you'll be stuck there forever and it may feel performative and that's what you get, but it has to start somewhere. So do you continue to allow that to be the reason you don't do something? It can be. I don't feel that what we're doing right here today is performative. I feel it's a conversation being had between three people who love the outdoors. That's not performative. I'm being genuine and what I bring, and I believe you all are too, these brands, they have to take a chance. If they get a no, that's fine. There are other affinity groups out there that will welcome you. Once you start building these relationships, people will see you're being authentic in what you're trying to accomplish.
Colin (38:04):
Producer, Dave's a pretty good actor actually. It's pretty performative over there. I think one thing, just bringing wrapping it up is a lot does fall on brands, and I think a lot should fall on brands historically. Like David said, there's a real history there. It's built the entry built in the back of the brands. A lot of listeners at this podcast though are the retailers. We have a huge contingent about tour, especially retailers that listen to this show and the thing that differentiates, I mean obviously they rely on the brands as well, but there's a differentiation in that these specialty shops especially are big in their communities. And is there anything, any success you've seen on the retail side or is there any advice you want to impart on maybe a retail shop owner listening about what they can do? Because that's a touch point, right? I mean, brands we can put on 'em and there's more they should do, but it's broader, it's harder. They have to serve everybody. What can a retailer do?
Teresa (38:59):
They can put pressure on these brands to do better. We all have to apply pressure. It's the vendor's responsibilities. It's the small mom and pop stores. It's their responsibilities. To me, it's even easier for these smaller retailers to reach out to affinity groups and say, Hey, you want to bring a group here and learn new outdoor activities, pitching a tent or whatever. Something simple. We, we got us camp out and we were intentional this year for the first year, not inviting any brands. And it was amazing to hear people talk about why they want to come to these gatherings, and it wasn't because of the brands. So I think that retailers like public lands, they're smaller, but they're coming up. I think REI is doing a better job now at having in-store marketing material that represents people of color and people from underrepresented communities. I think the work is happening and we need to highlight that so people can see it's happening and that gives other people the okay to do it as well.
Colin (40:27):
So to kind of bring it to a close, what is it that you have going on in your world between either the Oath or the In Solidarity project? What are the things that you're working on actively right now on all of these topics?
Teresa (40:39):
I'm just trying to find a niche right now with what's happening with OIA, moving away from Emerald, that's opportunities. So I'm trying to reach out to these people and say, Hey, what can we collaborate on now that there's a niche now that you all are throwing your hands up saying we don't know what to do. I'm trying to find a way to bring these people together because I don't have all the answers. I'm going to talk mess period on various topics, but I want to bring people together under the In Solidarity project, under ODA, whatever vehicle I have to use to help unite this outdoor industry, that's what I'm going to do.
Colin (41:25):
So Theresa Khan is coming up, is what we're going to
Teresa (41:28):
Do. That's it. That's it.
Colin (41:30):
Well, brands, anyone listening, Theresa's open for business. Get going here. Let's get this rolling. Theresa, you have an open seat. Anytime you want to come back on, you just let me know. Oh,
Teresa (41:40):
So you said the wrong thing? Yeah,
Colin (41:44):
I'm booked for the next
Teresa (41:44):
Six months. I'm to reach out. I'm about to reach out to some people and be like, Hey, I found us a home to get on and talk mess. It's
Colin (41:52):
Called Do it's rock Fight for a reason. Let's lob some rocks. I know.
Teresa (41:55):
All right, let's really get to it.
Colin (41:57):
Thanks for coming on, really appreciate it.
Teresa (41:59):
Awesome. Thank you so much.
Colin (42:02):
Alright, that's the show for today. Big thanks to my guest, Theresa Baker. You can find her work@insolidarityproject.com and outdoors oath.org. The Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight LLC. Our producer today was David Kasad, art Direction by Sarah Genser. I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening. And here to relieve my raspy voices Krista makes with his own raspy voice. He's going to sing the Rock Fight Fight song right now. We'll see you next time. Rock fighters. Rock
Chris DeMakes (42:29):
Fight, rock fight. Rock fight, rock fight, rock fight. Rock fight. Here we go into the rock fight. When we speak our truth, stay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. We talk about human power, outdoor activities and pick bites about topics that we find interesting. Black by culture. Music, the latest movie reviews, ideas in for the head. This is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth to. Welcome to the.