It's Time For The Outdoor Industry To 'Prop Up The Girls Club!'
- colin7931
- 3 days ago
- 34 min read
Today on the show Colin takes a look back at an age old outdoor industry problem.
The 'outdoor boys club' and a continued lack of gender representation is something that has persisted in the outdoor industry since there has been an outdoor industry. Today on the show Colin is joined by Cassie Abel, the founder and CEO of Wild Rye, who provides a unique perspective on the challenges and progress regarding women's inclusion in outdoor spaces.
Throughout their conversation, Cassie & Colin take a look at the historical patterns of inequality, significant steps taken been taken, and the ongoing obstacles that hinder true equity. Cassie also articulates the necessity for women in leadership positions to in order to create meaningful change and highlights the importance of collaboration over competition among outdoor brands.
Basically as Cassie puts it, "it's time to prop up the girls club."
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Episode Transcript (AI generated):
Colin True
00:00:00.160 - 00:01:26.140
Hey everyone, before we keep going here, I need to tell you about our teammates at Darby Communications.
Like I've been telling you, if you run an outdoor, an endurance or an active lifestyle brand, there is no better PR and digital marketing, belay partner or drinking buddy than Darby. They can help your business reach new heights and they might just keep you from falling on your ass.
Since we started working with Darby, more and more people and this is an important point now. Guys, I want you to hear me on this. More and more people have reached out to us here at the Rock Flight because of that messaging.
Look, guys, I'm dead serious. If they can help us, they can help anybody. Hit them up@darbycommunications.com do it today.
Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head.
I'm Colin True, and today we are Kool Aid, manning our way through the wall of the outdoor boys club. But before we get to that, if you missed Wednesday's episode of the Rock Fight, go back and check it out.
Justin Hausman joins and we hit some recent outdoor community stor.
Also, come back to the Rock Fight this upcoming Monday to hear outdoor industry insider Owen Comerford and producer Dave and I do the, you guessed it, the big tariff episode.
And lastly, it's time for you to subscribe both to the Rock Fight and also to Open Container, the newest Rock Fight podcast that is hosted by outdoor industry legend Doug Schnitzbahn. All you need to do is tap the follow button on whatever podcast app you're listening to us on and then look up Open Container.
Do the same thing over there. All right, stick around. We'll be right back.
Chris DeMakes
00:01:26.180 - 00:01:30.200
Welcome to the Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Colin True
00:01:31.520 - 00:03:39.120
So there are a handful of topics that are near and dear to the outdoor industry and community. One is sustainability.
You know, how do we get to have all of our favorite outdoor products in a way that is not so hard in the outdoors, when we make them and when we are finished using them? Another is conservation. How do we preserve our playgrounds? And also find ways to agree about how to preserve our playgrounds?
And yet another one is equity. And we've known for a long time there is an overwhelming amount of skinny white guys in both the outdoors and the outdoor industry.
So how do we get more women and minorities into both of these places?
Now, if you do some research, you'll find out that these issues have been part of the outdoor industry story for as long as there has been an outdoor industry. Getting the chance to review.
Old copies of snus housed by the Utah State Outdoor Archives, revealed to me stories and coverage of what we didn't yet call the topic of DEI that would look pretty normal in 2025 without changing a letter, whether it's about getting more people of color into the industry or more women into the industry.
And when it comes to women, the outdoor industry Women's Coalition was founded in 1990, and if you look at the reasons why that initiative was started, it's pretty damn similar to what we have going on today. So why does this issue persist? Has progress been made?
Well, to get some answers and drill a little further into it, I reached out to Cassie Abel, the founder and CEO of Wild Rye. Cassie has a unique point of view on this topic.
Having come up in the outdoor industry at a brand like Smith Optics before starting Wild Rye nearly 10 years ago, Cassie has been open and honest about developing Wild Rye as an outdoor apparel brand for women while having to rely on the outdoor boys club in order to make it happen.
So I was curious what her thoughts were on the history that keeps repeating itself when it comes to these topics, as well as what she thought about where we are today and if progress has been made in the time since she has started Wild Rye. And that's why I'm super stoked that Cassie is here with me on the show today.
Welcome back to the rock fight, where today we're breaking through the wall of the outdoor boys club with Cassie Abel. All right, we are here today, finally, with the founder of Wild Rye, Cassie Abel. And I always want to say Casey Abel.
I don't know if you've gotten that before. I always around. I don't know why. But anyway, we have a pretty big topic to dig into. But before we get to that, welcome to the show.
Cassie, how are you?
Cassie Abel
00:03:39.240 - 00:03:44.128
I'm great. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a long time coming, so I'm happy to finally be here.
Colin True
00:03:44.264 - 00:03:56.524
I know we. We've had a lot of, like, we should talk about this or that, and then it changes and then.
Or like, life intervenes or you go to Japan to go skiing or I, like, do what I'm doing. So I'm glad you got to do that, by the way. That's really what's important here.
Cassie Abel
00:03:56.632 - 00:03:57.844
Yeah. Yeah.
Colin True
00:03:57.972 - 00:03:59.960
How was the deep pal of Japan?
Cassie Abel
00:04:00.460 - 00:04:21.236
It was so magical. I managed to get out there with seven girlfriends, all of whom are also mothers.
So the fact that we planned a trip a year out and all Actually got on an airplane, was so spectacular. And we got two days of Japow and a bunch of sunny days as well. So we got to see Yotai and I don't know. Yeah, eat a lot of ramen isn't a great one.
Colin True
00:04:21.308 - 00:04:23.960
It actually, like, it lives. Something lives up to the hype.
Cassie Abel
00:04:24.580 - 00:04:25.004
Yeah.
Colin True
00:04:25.052 - 00:04:25.308
Right.
Cassie Abel
00:04:25.364 - 00:04:26.892
It was. Yes.
Colin True
00:04:26.956 - 00:04:50.324
Also, let's like, not. Not that it's not. It's not the topic we're talking about today, but let's take a minute and just sort of like give you some praise. On the.
Again, the adult parent trip. I did a bike packing trip with some old friends, only one of whom is not a parent.
And, you know, of course, while we're out there on the trip, it's like, okay, next year we're gonna do this or whatever. That was two years ago. We haven't seen each other since. But we did it that one time and it was awesome, you know, so.
Cassie Abel
00:04:50.412 - 00:05:00.996
You know, I feel like once you get started, it's easier to continue it. But, yeah, you just have to have a driving force behind it. And I'm not the driving force these days. It takes friends to drive that.
Colin True
00:05:01.068 - 00:05:13.460
Actually, it's the rock fight's fault, actually, because this was two years ago when we were much more like. It was like three or four months into this, like, yeah, I'll take a week off to go to Utah and go bike packing. Who cares?
And now it's like, no, no, no. I have an editorial schedule I have to stick to. And we have three episodes a week.
Cassie Abel
00:05:13.500 - 00:05:17.012
So it's probably my fault. Wow, that'll keep you busy.
Colin True
00:05:17.156 - 00:06:45.920
It really will. But not as much as running a brand. And that's what we're here to talk about to a certain degree. We are talking about the sort of.
The working title I put on our. On our podcast here today, which probably won't be the final one, was Kool Aid manning the out the boys club of the outdoor industry.
And I like that as a, I guess a metaphor because the idea of, like, let's. Let's just kick in the door on this. Can we finally kick in the door on this a little bit?
We talk about it a lot, but let's really like, oh, yeah, our way through the wall. Because there's a.
When it comes to the opportunities of who gets them, and there's no shortage of podcast articles or, you know, oral articles out there that say we need to do better on this kind of topic, we do need to do better. We will always need to do better. But there are steps that have been taken. What are the steps that have been taken?
What are the steps that are not being taken? And this has been a topic since, like, there's been an outdoor industry. So I had the chance to look at through the Utah State archive.
They have old copies of Snooze, which was the big outdoor industry magazine back in the day. And these are like from the early 1990s. And the funny thing about reading those issues is that nothing has changed. Right.
The industry topics they were talking about then, it's like 1992. Right. This is 10 years after the advent of fleece. Right.
So like, it's the words like, well, we got to do better with innovation and oh man, we need to do better with sustainability. And like, oh, we got to get women and minorities more involved. And oh, we're starting the outdoor industry women's Coalition. And this is like, it's.
It wasn't that there were that the. We also don't have these challenges in 2025. It's that 30 years later, it's like we have no memory of that time.
Cassie Abel
00:06:46.040 - 00:06:46.284
And.
Colin True
00:06:46.312 - 00:07:03.876
And we're still approaching these issues as if now, like, oh, we're aware of these now. And it's like, no, this has always been here. So I guess to start sort of my pre. Mumble of all this, but my start.
My to start to kind of kick things off the conversation here. You know, the idea of Wild Rye is a decade old now, right? The brand itself is nine years old. Is that right?
Cassie Abel
00:07:04.028 - 00:07:10.932
Yeah, we launched about eight and a half years ago to the public. So it's been amusing in our brains for 10 years.
Colin True
00:07:11.036 - 00:07:22.146
So, okay, so two questions to start.
Like, what was it like to start an outdoor brand as a woman in a male dominated industry and now 10 years later, you know, are things any different when you look back on them?
Cassie Abel
00:07:22.298 - 00:07:24.642
Yeah. Okay, two questions at once. Let's see.
Colin True
00:07:24.746 - 00:07:26.270
We don't mess around around here.
Cassie Abel
00:07:27.050 - 00:07:28.674
You might have to remind me my mom.
Colin True
00:07:28.762 - 00:07:30.950
I will. I got it written down. We're in good shape.
Cassie Abel
00:07:32.170 - 00:08:36.260
Yeah, I mean, starting Wild Rye was really terrifying. I'm not gonna lie. I worked in the outdoor industry for a long time before Wild Rye became a reality.
And I was nervous about our reception and, you know, I was really conscious and careful about how we approached it because I knew that we needed to have male allies along the way. We needed to be supported by the men in the industry if we were to survive.
And I believe that today, I mean, we are successful because we have great men in our corner.
And so But I do remember, you know, pressing send on launch day and being like, what are all my old colleagues gonna think when I'm basically challenging the industry to do better? Like, you know, straight up saying there are no great options for women in cycling and snow right now. We are here to change that.
So, yeah, I mean, it was scary. You know, we were completely bootstrapped for the first five years. So we were highly invested into making this change.
Colin True
00:08:36.380 - 00:08:46.639
And this is a follow up to that, though.
So working in the industry, did you feel like there was a challenge just being a woman in the industry before you even decided to start a female focused brand?
Cassie Abel
00:08:47.579 - 00:09:51.772
Yes and no. I mean, yes, definitely. It was, it was. I mean, I was a minority. I sat in so many rooms where I was the only woman or one of two women.
And, you know, I was going up against men who had been in the industry for a long time.
And so as a newer entrant into the industry and as a woman, you know, I had to fight to be heard and I had to be really thoughtful about my approach to a lot of different things. And yeah, I'm a passionate person. I have a lot of heart. I don't hold back. And so that was hard for me and I definitely didn't always do it right.
I definitely came in guns blazing at times. But through that time, I definitely learned that, you know, I need to bring people along with me, not clash head to head.
And that, I think, is a big part of the reason for Wild R success is we have a lot of men, both former colleagues and leaders in this industry, who have been advisors, even investors, have been massive cheerleaders for us. And so then the second part of.
Colin True
00:09:51.796 - 00:10:03.570
The question was looking. So let's say just call it. We'll round up. You're a decade into the journey here. You know it. Do you.
And back to my kind of my initial statement about, like, things haven't changed. Do you think things are any different than they were 10 years ago?
Cassie Abel
00:10:04.430 - 00:10:55.154
I think they've changed. I think it's slow. I mean, you have to look really closely to see the change.
You know, I think the last 10, 10 years have been a really wild time to be a small business and be in this industry.
I mean, we've gone, yeah, the global pandemic movements, you know, Black Lives Matter movements, you know, pre pandemic, REI was all in on force of nature and getting more women in the outdoors and, you know, just sort the. No, like, there have been all these phases that have been a lot to navigate. And you Know, some of them have held back our progress for sure.
Some of them have accelerated progress. Right. I think today's political landscape is going to set women back farther than we were, you know, a year ago. I mean, it trickles down.
Colin True
00:10:55.242 - 00:11:03.880
Roe v. Wade in the last 10 years happened. Right. The overturning, I mean, just like a lot of things have happened, you're absolutely right.
That are impactful peripherally outside of the industry.
Cassie Abel
00:11:04.050 - 00:11:38.102
Yeah. And anyone who knows me, that is a huge passion point for me personally and for the Wild Ride brand.
But even so, I mean, as companies are budget constrained, there's less pressure, I think in today's climate to do better by women, do better by minorities because we've got this administration that's canceling dei.
And so, yeah, I mean, I think now is the time for brands to step up for their female athletes, to support women led events, to rally around brands that are doing better for women. Otherwise we're going to take a really big step back.
Colin True
00:11:38.286 - 00:12:01.028
So as you got going though, like, was it harder to prioritize working with women who could help build your band because it was so male focused, you know, is a. Was it. Which is a, you know, you're a female focused brand. I'm sure you have wanted to include more women in the process.
But to your point, it's male dominate. A lot of male help to kind of get things up and running.
What, you know, how difficult was that to try and figure out ways to find women to help you out in the, in that regard?
Cassie Abel
00:12:01.134 - 00:13:30.760
Honestly, it wasn't that hard. I mean, in the early days, we didn't have many resources to work with anyone.
So my former business partner and I were scrapping our way to everything. I'd say photographers were the area where we worked with external partners.
Our first photographer was a local guy who has been a huge support, mostly because he didn't make us pay him very much.
But from there on out, we've pretty much only worked with female photographers or content creators unless we're producing here in our hometown and working, you know, with a mix of men and women. But yeah, I think that's. We've always prioritized working with women since day one.
The athletes we've supported are, you know, well rounded women who are contributing to their communities in addition to being ripping skiers and bikers. You know, I think there are some rules where it's harder to find a woman.
But you know, we have an all female in house team right now and we do work with some male contractors on a few things. And they're fantastic and super supportive. And, you know, I'm not anti man or anti male. And I think, you know, we hire the best person for the job.
It just happens to be that the best person for the job. In many roles here at Wild Rye are women because they're, you know, building product for women. They're talking to women.
They're, you know, coming at it from a women's perspective. And so, um, you know, I think there are, there are phenomenal women in the industry and you just have to work a little harder.
Colin True
00:13:31.180 - 00:14:36.646
Well, that's what I wonder. Are people asking the right questions? Right.
I think, like, the thing I was trying to think of earlier is there's a real easy knee jerk reaction to just about everything. And I think I definitely see it within the outdoor community, too. It's just the, like, well, you should be doing it this way. Right.
Or this, you know, and it kind of like when things get boiled down a certain way without sort of understanding maybe the challenges of, you know, number one, building a brand. So you have all those challenges now.
You're building a brand that is focused on a, on a demographic that hasn't really been well represented over the course of the history. Right? The classic, you know, line of shrink it and pink it. And now you have your women's line. Like, you're flying in the face of that, frankly.
You're still, you're still facing that. Because I think last year we were ripping.
I think it was Adidas and Danner on the, on the show because they're like, hey, we're building things on a women's last. Now I'm like, really? In 2024. Wow, you made it, guys. Good job. Like, you know, like other people been doing this since the 70s, but.
All right, good, good on you. Right, so. So that stuff still exists, but then you still, you know, so there are legit different challenges of something that's already hard.
And then you do have that almost like, well, you could, you know, just do it this way and this is the way you should be doing it. The kind of knee jerk reactions you see on, like, LinkedIn and places like that.
Cassie Abel
00:14:36.798 - 00:16:23.482
Yeah, well, you know, to be honest, I think working with women hasn't been as challenging, but a diverse set of women has been where we've, you know, worked really hard, but still run into some roadblocks. You know, we're based in Idaho. I mean, it is lily white, and our town is a bunch of, you know, skinny, athletic white girls.
And, you know, we've tried really Hard to, you know, lead with a diverse model base and athlete base, and that's super important to us. But we've had to work extra hard. And I. I remember getting a scathing email. I believe it was spring of 2020. I just had a baby.
I had to figure out how to get in peak Covid, too. Peak Covid. I was a solo entrepreneur at that point.
My business partner had moved on, and I got this scathing email of, like, you have no representation in your marketing. And I'm sitting there like, I don't. I don't have the resources. And right now we're in a pandemic. I'm a new mom. I'm the one doing all this.
And so, you know, I think one of the biggest challenges has been, you know, we've.
We've stuck our neck out there as a brand that's committed to make change, committed to do better, and we're expected to do everything better all at once. And I think that's been the more challenging part is, you know, yes, we have all the intention and hope in the world to do everything better.
You know, from sustainability to, you know, representing women, to representing all women, to representing women of color to representing women of size. And we just can't do it all at once. I mean, we're still a, you know, under resourced brand that is has to be scrappy as hook. So it is fun.
Colin True
00:16:23.506 - 00:17:19.550
And that's kind of what I mean about people asking the right questions, because I'm not gonna at all relate to what you just said. But I will say, as a someone who's building a brand and you got to deal with what you have in front of you. And it's kind of like ender are. And I.
And I often. I want the criticism. And we get plenty of, like, it's an overly male white brand. And you.
I'm like, I can always say, yeah, you're right, because, like, that's kind of what we've had until we even had the resources to really address that. I would only. And I never want to push back because I like. Because they're not wrong. And I want those observations and I want the naked.
I want the critical feedback. But it would be nice if every once in a while someone asked, hey, why isn't it like that? As opposed to just, fuck you, you're doing it wrong.
You know what I mean? Like, in that moment, if they had said, hey, why don't you have a little more representation in your department?
You could have said, because there are reasons right? And that's kind of what I mean.
And I wonder if that sort of singularity of mindset of, like, just drilling it down to a basic question holds back some of that progress I'm kind of looking for when I look back over the history of the industry. You know what I mean?
Cassie Abel
00:17:19.590 - 00:18:09.446
Yeah, yeah. And I think it comes down to keyboard warriors. I mean, those people don't actually want to ask the questions, and. And that's fine.
And it's those people. I mean, it's really the people that do ask the questions that have.
Have continued to force us to evolve and think differently and work harder and, you know, work. Work differently and, you know, resource new people to grow our network to better represent more communities.
But, yeah, I mean, you have to take it in stride.
And, you know, I might have gone home and cried for a few days, but then I bounced back and I found some really great people to continue to grow my network and create more opportunities, even though we couldn't travel across the country for a photo shoot that year, so.
Colin True
00:18:09.518 - 00:18:37.760
Right. Well, like I mentioned, this topic, it goes back a long way. Right. As evidenced by those old issues of snooze.
So I've been in the industry since the late 90s. I've heard all the conversations I need to move on from the skinny white guy on top of the mountain.
So we keep acknowledging this, you know, kind of like we've been saying, but is it easy just kind of get more into broadly, kind of like what's the root cause or what are the things that maybe we need to address in the industry? Right. So is it. Do you think it's so much just easier to know we need to change, but simply not do it? Do you feel like there's that vibe exists?
Cassie Abel
00:18:37.920 - 00:19:52.272
I think we're tasking the wrong people to make the change. I think when it comes to women in particular, we need women in leadership.
We need women making the decisions, holding the coin purse, and we need the men to support those women and wholeheartedly support that. Women are gonna know how to serve women better.
And so whether that's us at Wild Rye or a woman being at the helm of the women's category at X, Y and Z brand, as opposed to having a man lead all of product or all of marketing and trying to make change for women. And so I don't think it's necessarily that we don't want to make change.
I just think that there are still people that don't, you know, like, I will give the industry a little slack. There's you know, everyone's under resourced. And so, yeah, no, we can't have a.
And, you know, like, finding the right mix of having a woman leading marketing for their women's channel and men leading marketing for the men's channel isn't necessarily an option, but having more women in leadership is how we're going to get there. And, you know, I've been at multiple conferences where still today I'm, you know.
Colin True
00:19:52.296 - 00:19:55.180
I'd say I'm the one.
Cassie Abel
00:19:55.640 - 00:19:58.016
Yeah. Not the one. It's gotten better.
Colin True
00:19:58.168 - 00:19:59.300
You're Neo.
Cassie Abel
00:20:00.440 - 00:20:05.980
But, you know, I'd say 10 to 20% women compared to.
Colin True
00:20:06.840 - 00:20:08.048
That's progress. Right.
Cassie Abel
00:20:08.104 - 00:20:22.832
I think the, you know, it's gone backwards from a couple years ago when people had flush budgets and, you know, diversity equity. They were held accountable, top of everyone's brain.
Colin True
00:20:22.896 - 00:20:57.354
But even that was probably rushed into a way and everyone was looking for the quick fix and that back to, like the George Floyd times and all those things, those social issues coming out. And I also think the industry doesn't. And I'm speaking broadly, which we often do here on the show, but, like, you know, there's the.
The folks we want to talk about versus the ones we don't because, like, you know, VF doesn't usually get a lot of love around here, but Caroline Brown's in charge of the north face. Jen McLaren's in front of Ultra. Right.
I mean, there are, you know, that is not a world we probably would have lived in not that long ago where, like, some really big publicly traded brands are being led by women.
Cassie Abel
00:20:57.522 - 00:21:02.260
Yeah, well, Caroline Brown's pretty new at North Face, right? That's in, like, the last couple months.
Colin True
00:21:02.330 - 00:21:05.936
So Mary Beth is getting hired at rei. Yeah.
Cassie Abel
00:21:06.048 - 00:21:08.380
I hope the skims collab goes away as a result.
Colin True
00:21:09.960 - 00:21:11.696
What if she just really loves skims?
Cassie Abel
00:21:11.728 - 00:21:20.020
You know, it's a sustainability, man. We can't be brands that have zero intent on doing good by our planet.
Colin True
00:21:21.640 - 00:21:30.684
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And now back to the show. So things. We could make the case. Things are changing. Maybe it's just not going fast enough.
And honestly, we could probably use Wild Rye as evidence that there has been progress in this. Right? I mean, do you. Do you know, do you notice that? Are you noticing your name being kind of included in some of these conversations now?
Cassie Abel
00:23:27.360 - 00:23:47.864
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think Wild Rye is a great example of change.
And I think it's, you know, it's like I said, it takes passionate, maybe slightly dumb women to lead the charge on this, but. Or ignorant, whatever. You know, as a fellow founder, I.
Colin True
00:23:47.872 - 00:23:50.860
Can confirm that dumb is probably the right word.
Cassie Abel
00:23:52.720 - 00:25:39.420
But no, I mean, it takes, you know, I think Wild Ride is a great example of it. There's a lot of women led brands at the moment, you know, that have. Have burst out of the undergrowth of the outdoor industry in the last decade.
You know, I'm struggling because there's also a handful of women led brands that I've heard are going under right now. And that breaks my heart because we have pushed so hard.
And it's just, it's the same thing that happens in big brands is that as funding dries up, we're the first to take the hit or like our programs are the first to take a hit.
So, you know, and, and these are broad, sweeping statements like, there are certainly companies that are hanging on hard and doing the right thing and, you know, committed to their core. But there's also a lot of companies who are, okay, you know, no one's paying attention to this anymore.
We need to cut budgets first on the chopping block. So. But I mean, the same is true for these women led brands that are looking for funding outside funding.
Retail is not the most exciting place to invest right now. And, you know, the outdoor industry is challenged.
Coming off of COVID and, you know, women receive 2% of venture funding and don't typically have the same networks of finance bros who are gonna slide some capital our way to further our growth. And so we just have to work that much harder and be that much scrappier, more creative.
And I don't even remember the initial question, but here we are. Yes.
Colin True
00:25:40.400 - 00:26:09.800
Well, it's compounding, right?
I mean, you think about something we've been talking about in the show recently, you know, that Owen Comerford's been talking about is like, you know, entering this year with a fair amount of optimism about the industry. And now that's just all gone to shit, you know, as like as the presidential administration is doing what they're doing.
And so if the industry is suffering in general, if you're, and you're now you're a founder, you're a small up and coming brand or company or retailer, whatever it is, so you're going to struggle as a result. And if you are at a disadvantage because of some things we're talking about, it's just going to get worse and worse and worse. Right.
It compounds against itself.
Cassie Abel
00:26:09.890 - 00:27:13.000
You know, I'm so optimistic that brands that are very value forward are going to come out ahead in this because people are so discouraged by the lack of brands standing up for their population, of people, their needs, the planet. And so I'm still very optimistic. Wild Rye has done very well this year. So I feel very grateful and I'm, you know, it's, it's not luck.
We put in a lot of work.
We've built a really strong core and foundation for our commitment to women and standing up for reproductive health care and something that we'll continue to do through this administration and beyond because we're getting swept under the rug and our rights are not front and center right now. Someone's got to stand up for it.
And also being in Idaho, it's even more important for me to speak louder and, you know, have a stronger stance on some of these issues as I'm living in. The result of Roe v. Wade being overturned.
Colin True
00:27:13.900 - 00:27:30.400
Is that a. Is Idaho always in the future?
Is there a world where, again, access as you grow to different people, different opportunities, different resources, where you might have to make the hard call to maybe leave Idaho one day? Or do you think, no, we are here, we will live, we live and die here, and that's the way it is?
Cassie Abel
00:27:31.400 - 00:27:35.700
I mean, never say never, but I personally am not leaving.
Colin True
00:27:39.160 - 00:27:42.096
Headquarters, moved to Chicago, but I am right here, you know.
Cassie Abel
00:27:42.168 - 00:28:40.268
Yeah, no, I mean, we're a mountain brand. Like, it's so core to who we are. And, you know, I've seen a lot of mountain brands leave the mountains. And I, And I get it.
Like, it's growing a big team here is not easy. And, you know, we've had to be okay with some remote employees and.
But, you know, I feel, you know, I've been conflicted on, you know, some of the outdoor industry stance on not existing in the state of Utah because of their conflicting political views. On the flip side, I believe that we need fighters from within the state to call on our legislation and say, this is bad for business.
Like, you're ruining the, you know, the economics of our state by not backing certain issues. And so, you know, they don't care if we're not here.
Colin True
00:28:40.404 - 00:29:17.934
So I cannot agree with you more on that. So I think the. I look back on the decision, like, I get.
I remember the being there and being at a brand when, when outdoor retailer decided to leave Utah as a protest. And at the time, that feeling like a great idea because of how passionately felt. And Trump was new at the time. Right.
And all these things, we wanted to make a stand. And now it's kind of like what I was saying before about, like, it's. And you referenced the people with keyboard courage.
It's like a bigger version of that. Right. It's like you can either just tuck tail and run away and say, I don't.
Like, I'm taking my ball and I'm going home, or I can stay here and pick the fight and, you know, make it better.
Cassie Abel
00:29:18.102 - 00:29:18.542
Yeah.
Colin True
00:29:18.606 - 00:29:35.476
And I think that is in a state like Utah, which everybody, by all accounts, it's a growing place. It's a, It's a good place to do business. Like, do you just roll over and let the people who you disagree with kind of own that?
Or do you kind of put a stake in the sand and say, no, no, no, we're gonna, we're gonna be here, too, and make it better for everybody.
Cassie Abel
00:29:35.668 - 00:29:56.372
Yeah.
And I, I mean, I also just feel like on the ground level, I mean, educating people and being a part of that conversation with, you know, people in your community that may think differently and may have a thing or two to learn and, you know, if we're all just living with people that are exactly like us, you know, we're going to be more and more divided and. And.
Colin True
00:29:56.476 - 00:29:57.400
Exactly.
Cassie Abel
00:29:57.740 - 00:30:12.120
So, yeah, I'm, I'm not saying I have that conversation frequently because I do live in a little. Little blue bubble in the Wood River Valley.
But, you know, I'm certainly exposed to more than I would be if I, you know, uprooted to Seattle So that's true.
Colin True
00:30:13.740 - 00:31:30.172
So also, like, this is where I think the, the storytelling needs to change. I mean, and that's obviously like something you and I talked about is like, you know, I want to have you on.
But also it's like, do we have you on to have this conversation? Right. It's kind of like, you know, versus the how do we shine a light without it just being like, well, here's another.
We have to talk about, you know, diversity or equity or whatever it is. It's like, you know, we have things like, you know, the, the project you've worked on with women led Wednesday and you know, there's.
Which highlights so many, you know, women founded companies out there. And I know that's a special event through the year. Right. But it's also, it's a resource that is online 24 7.
So if you want to support women founded businesses, there's a resource there. And how do we kind of creatively, those of us on the media side, those of us with a platform, how do we kind of change.
How do we work to kind of change the narrative? So it isn't just like, well, it's that time of year when we have somebody on to talk about this thing that happens all the time. Right.
It's like, we don't, we shouldn't be doing that. We want to continue to. How do we do it in the right way, I guess, is the, is kind of the question. Yeah.
Like, going forward, how do we say, yeah, it's. Billy's been this way, but it doesn't always have to be this way.
And I know that there'll be some aging out of the old boys club, you know, so that's a little dark to kind of suggest it that way, but it's true. And hopefully the younger generations are a little bit more enlightened.
But, you know, how do we grab hold of the narrative and say, hey, it's different now.
Cassie Abel
00:31:30.356 - 00:31:43.276
Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny. I mean, you talk about the boys club and I was thinking about this a lot.
I'm like, okay, we've, yeah, sure, we've cracked open the, in the, open the door a little bit. I don't even want in the boys club. Like, I've been in the boys club.
Colin True
00:31:43.348 - 00:31:45.080
I don't know. It's pretty sweet in here.
Cassie Abel
00:31:45.780 - 00:32:45.626
I've had a great time. Trust me, like, boys club is fun, but. Or it can be, but.
Yeah, but I think, you know, I think understanding that we are biologically physical physio, physiologically, I'm using All sorts of science terms I don't totally know the meaning of, but psychologically different and understanding that we just need to prop up the girls club.
And it's not necessarily that we need to break down the walls and, you know, fight with each other, but we need to support each other and we need to understand that men don't know women more better than they, you know. Men don't know women better than women know women. The same way that women have never tried to say that they know men better than women.
And so, yeah, I mean, propping up the women who are here is how we make this change and continue to, you know, make a difference in the community, you know, like in the outdoor industry. And I'm hopeful.
Colin True
00:32:45.658 - 00:33:14.470
I mean I have a, you know, I have a college age daughter and I watch how she and her boyfriend interact and it's remarkably different than like when I was, you know, dating in the 90s and stuff like that. Like, not that like, you know, I mean, but it's just, you could just see the difference. You could see the.
There's not, it does, it doesn't from at least small sample size, but he doesn't seem as entitled and she's not willing to put up with and that is definitely like environments that they both grew up in. But it's like I didn't see a whole lot of that 30 years ago. You know, that's encouraging, you know.
Cassie Abel
00:33:14.630 - 00:33:17.530
Yeah, that might have been why I was single for most of my 20s.
Colin True
00:33:18.750 - 00:33:20.770
That's what probably was a good decision.
Cassie Abel
00:33:22.270 - 00:33:23.526
Didn't put up with bullshit.
Colin True
00:33:23.558 - 00:33:25.570
But no one was ready for 24.
Cassie Abel
00:33:27.550 - 00:33:28.294
Hours.
Colin True
00:33:28.462 - 00:33:57.472
Oh, that's great. I guess kind of lastly, like if you look at sort of the broader landscape, what's just some actionable things that the industry could do better.
Right. When you look at sort of the players, the brands and it's always a touchy thing, right? Because look, at the end of the day, it's capitalism.
Everyone has to make money. That's how we exist.
And so, and we're pairing that out and this is why I love talking about the outdoor industry because it's an industry founded on shared passion. But we still have to abide the rules of making money and wins and losses.
Cassie Abel
00:33:57.616 - 00:33:58.176
Yeah.
Colin True
00:33:58.288 - 00:34:10.360
And I also think what defines us and gives us the opportunity to be better too. Right.
So if you kind of look at the industry as a whole, where do you see an opportunity to kind of just, you know, almost like you could, if you started operating this way, it would just be better, you know what I mean?
Cassie Abel
00:34:10.400 - 00:35:16.930
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I've struggled with coming up with concrete examples of this, but I think, you know, it all comes down to collaboration over competition when it is possible and understanding that there are times when you have to go head to head with your competition.
But when it comes to events that encourage newbies into the sport or underrepresented groups into outdoor sports, cycling, skiing, climbing, you name it, you know, having more brands show up is better than fewer because it means capital for the events to continue, to continue to do the good work that they're doing. So I just, I just. I don't know. I'm such a believer in collaboration over competition. So it always works. A rising tide lifts all boats.
I mean, there's a reason that stain has stuck around for so long. That's our saying with women led Wednesday.
You know, if we build awareness around the importance of supporting women led brands with your purchases, it's better for all of us. And so I have to look at.
Colin True
00:35:16.970 - 00:36:09.692
The rock fight and think maybe I made a mistake with the name because it was very much tongue in cheek and more like throwing rocks at the broader ideas of the industry, more so than, like, specific things. But there are definitely not people who are like, you know, who want it to be maybe a little more angry than it actually is.
But my whole thing is, it's like I'm going to be very open and honest with my opinions, which I think a lot of people in the industry are not. But come on and tell me that I'm wrong, because collaboration, I only want to get smarter and better.
And I want the show to be a place for, you know, opposing points of views to be able to kind of gather and hash it out as opposed to just the keyboard courage and those things. So I think I couldn't agree with you more. Those sort of collaborative.
I would love to see, you know, you go back to pfas, issues of sustainability issues.
It's like if all of you big freaking bands would just kind of like pull some resources and kind of establish a baseline for how we should be going about these things.
Yeah, it would just the whole industry would be better for it because we're all kind of driving towards something better and you guys are the ones with the resources to do that.
Cassie Abel
00:36:09.796 - 00:38:00.390
So, yeah, I mean, the same. Now. Now you got me thinking about the US Manufacturing conversation because it's like, we can't lead that. We can't afford to lead that.
There is not a skilled workforce to produce our product. It's going to take. I'm not I'm still not saying it's the right thing to do.
Like, it would take generations to bring apparel manufacturing, technical apparel manufacturing back to the US Regardless of how hard we push today. But, you know, the fact that oftentimes the smaller brands are punished more greatly. These tariffs are certainly going to.
But it's going to affect the smaller brands more than the bigger brands. They have more duplicity in multiple countries. They have more leverage with their manufacturers. And, you know, here we are.
Why don't you bring manufacturing back to the U.S. we can't. Like, we tried, we failed. It almost sunk us before we began.
And, you know, yeah, same thing goes with pfas and, you know, materials that are more sustainable.
You know, I think what Prana did with their packaging collaboration was really great because it opened up more sustainable packaging for any brands that wanted to participate and get involved and spread awareness on, you know, the need for more sustainable packaging. So, you know, that is a perfect example.
I've also had great experiences with Patagonia, opening up some of their resources to us and, you know, being willing to talk to other brands about how to do X, Y and Z better and where do you start.
So, you know, though, that's what we need more of, like, for women, for, you know, getting, getting more groups, underrepresented groups in the outdoors, for sustainability, you name it. That's. We need more of that.
Colin True
00:38:00.510 - 00:38:05.654
That's awesome. You guys just had a big brand launch. You want to talk about your new, your new product launch, the Winter Collection?
Cassie Abel
00:38:05.782 - 00:38:06.710
Yeah, I'd love to.
Colin True
00:38:06.750 - 00:38:12.130
Tell us what's going on. We got to at least talk about the products for a second. We're all this big, heady stuff. Let's talk about the good stuff. What's going on in Wild Ride?
Cassie Abel
00:38:12.230 - 00:38:25.322
Yeah. Oh, my gosh. So many things have been going on the last couple months.
Yeah, we rolled out a rebrand and sort of with that rebrand, we introduced our technical snow apparel outerwear. Technical snow outerwear.
Colin True
00:38:25.386 - 00:38:29.098
While you're saying this, by the way, as a skier, I could just tell that you are so stoked right now.
Cassie Abel
00:38:29.154 - 00:39:13.940
I am so stoked. I mean, it's true. It's been a dream for 10 years. It's been in development for four.
At this stage, you know, we are really the only women led brand to lead with a technical outerwear program. You know, it's super high quality proprietary fabrics, but designed from the ground up for women.
You know, we've really taken stretch and fit into sort of like the top tier of priorities, but it holds up for skiers in any climate. I've been skiing in all winter and I was forced to put on my old kit a week or two ago because my kit was needed for us photo shoot.
And I was really sad to have.
Colin True
00:39:13.980 - 00:39:19.364
To go back, so. Yeah, right. Like, you're cheating on it in a way. Like. Like a little cheating.
Cassie Abel
00:39:19.412 - 00:40:21.680
And also just didn't feel as good and fit. I couldn't move as well. It was very straight compared to, you know, our kit that accommodates a woman's body.
I mean, that's what we pride ourselves in on, is building product from the ground up for women and only women. And so every feature is considered exclusively for a women's body and needs. And so, yeah, we're launching two different outerwear kits in two colors.
Each one is more backcountry centric. So 70% backcountry.
Obviously, can wear it in a resort, but the materials are lighter, the pocket placement accommodates backpacks, you know, all the features that you want in a backcountry kit and then a more resort centric kit, but still highly technical and breathable. So great for boot packing, side country in addition to, you know, spritzy resort days. But yeah, I am so excited. This is Skiing is my first love.
Even though we are more well known as a bike grand brand, skiing is.
Colin True
00:40:23.020 - 00:40:26.480
Number one in your heart, is that this launches this fall. That's a fall launch.
Cassie Abel
00:40:26.780 - 00:40:37.856
This launches in September 2025. So, yeah, some great retail partners, but otherwise online, and we are so excited.
Colin True
00:40:37.968 - 00:40:51.344
Cassie, thank you so much for coming on. Really appreciate it. Let's do it again.
We'll definitely see you in Reno at the Discovery Marketplace and we'll, you know, if you have any other, you know, grand ideas for furthering the outdoor industry, you know where to bring them. Let's talk about it in the future.
Cassie Abel
00:40:51.512 - 00:40:55.300
Awesome. Well, thanks so much for having me and really appreciated the conversation.
Colin True
00:40:55.720 - 00:41:37.624
All right, that's the show for today. Come back on Monday where we're going to be having the big tariff episode. Then come back on Wednesday where I think Houseman's gonna be here.
But we're also gonna have a mystery guest that's gonna help kick things off. I'm like 90% certain that's gonna happen, so you're not gonna wanna miss Monday or Wednesday's episode.
A lot of big stuff happening next week on the Rock Fight. I'll keep you posted. Check out the latest from the Rock Flight podcast Network, Open Container and the Rock Fight.
It's a production of Rock Fight llc. I'M Colin True. Thanks for listening and here to take us out. It's Chris D. Makes. It's Chris D. Makes.
He's going to sing you right into the weekend with the Rock Fight Fight song. Will see you next time. Rock fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:41:37.672 - 00:42:38.340
Rock fight Rock fight Rock fight Rock fight Rock fight Rock fight Welcome to the rock fight where we speak our truth Slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to dis disagree we talk about human powered outdoor activities and pig bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture music the latest movie reviews Ideas that aim for the head this is where we speak our truth this is where we speak our truth Rock fight Rock fight Rock fight Welcome to the rock side Rock fight Rock fight welcome to the rock fight Rock fight Rock fight Rock fight Rock fight Rock fight Welcome to the rock fight Rock fight Rock fight Rock fight Rock fight.