Today on THE ROCK FIGHT (an outdoor podcast that aims for the head) environmental fashion journalist Sophie Benson returns to talk about the latest sustainability topics to come out of the outdoor industry.
Sophie joins Colin & Producer Dave to share her insights on the recent upcycling and recommerce initiatives from various outdoor brands. The episode also delves into the implications of new legislation in California, SB707, which holds producers accountable for their textile waste. They also discuss Sophie's coverage of the Trashie program, which aims to tackle fashion waste while raising questions about consumer behavior and responsibility.
Lastly they wrap things up with another edition of This Week In Greenwashing!
Chapters:
02:27 - Exploring Upcycling and Recommerce
14:00 - California's New Textile Legislation
23:52 - Understanding the 'Trashy' Take Back Program
34:07 - This Week in Greenwashing
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Episode Transcript
Colin
00:00:00.800 - 00:01:51.875
Western North Carolina businesses need your financial support now more than ever in the aftermath of Hurricane Helene this month, Darby Communications, based in Asheville, North Carolina is donating its ad space here on the Rock Fight to help other outdoor businesses in Western North Carolina get back on their feet. Asheville local endurance brands, Feel Goods and Precio have started a fundraiser through their Together We Rise t shirt campaign.
100% of these t shirt sales will go to local outdoor businesses that have lost everything, like rockgeist Bikepacking usa, a local bag maker, and Asheville Adventure Company, owner of Asheville's only climbing gym.
Both businesses lost everything in the unprecedented flooding from Hurricane Helene and you can get your Together We Rise shirt and support Western north carolina@fuelgoods.com welcome to the Rock Play where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head.
I'm Colin True and today on the show, UK based environmental fashion journalist Sophie Benson returns to sit down with myself and producer Dave and give us her thoughts on the slew of outdoor brands who've been making headlines with new upcycling and recommerce programs. She gives us her thoughts on the passage of new textile centric legislation in California.
And she breaks down a story she wrote about a new take back program called Trashy. And then lastly, we play a quick round of this week in Greenwashing. It's an action packed episode.
But first, please be sure to follow and rate the Rock Fight wherever you are. Listening.
Clicking follow on your favorite podcast app and leaving that five star rating is the best way to help out this show, which we know that you love and we want your feedback on this and every episode of the Rock Fight. Send your emails to myrockfightmail.com and all right, let's start the show.
Chris DeMakes
00:01:51.955 - 00:01:56.015
Welcome to the Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Colin
00:01:57.275 - 00:01:59.107
All right, Sophie Benson is back with.
Colin
00:01:59.131 - 00:02:04.135
Us on the Rock Fight. Sophie is a freelance journalist who focuses on sustainability, sustainability and fashion.
Colin
00:02:04.215 - 00:02:05.151
Welcome back, Sophie.
Sophie
00:02:05.183 - 00:02:06.375
We've missed you around here.
Sophie
00:02:06.495 - 00:02:09.511
Hey, thanks for having me back. I know it's been a while, hasn't it? I'm glad to be back.
Colin
00:02:09.543 - 00:02:15.951
I know. Well, it's just nothing going on in, you know, fashion. Sustainability, sustainability. It's just not this been quiet. Just.
Sophie
00:02:15.983 - 00:02:19.915
Yeah, just nothing happening. You know, fashion's. Fashion's fixed. It's all fine.
Sophie
00:02:20.335 - 00:02:32.801
Well, later on we're going to have our regular segment that we do when Sophie joins the show called this Week in Greenwashing.
But before we get to that we have a handful of environmentally outdoor stories, folk outdoor focused stories that we want to talk about while we've got her here.
Colin
00:02:32.913 - 00:02:34.313
So, Sophie, over the past month we've.
Colin
00:02:34.329 - 00:03:16.575
Been talking a lot about stories here on the Rock flight coming out of the outdoor space about brand specific re commerce efforts and brands launching upcycled collections.
Our point of view sort of generally here on the show is that while these are admirable efforts, they typically amount to very little in the grand scheme of things and perhaps even delay bigger solutions from gaining traction. You have a broader view of what's happening across all of fashion when it comes to the environment and sustainability.
So I really wanted to get your opinion on some of these. So I sent you some links. I told you what was going on with Codapoxy and Flylo and a number of other brands. How do you view these initiatives?
And is the outdoor industry ahead of other fashion categories in this regard? I mean, so just, I guess we'll start with how do you view these types of initiatives is probably the best place to start.
Sophie
00:03:16.735 - 00:05:08.897
Yeah, I mean, I guess I feel the same way as you in some senses. You know, I do think it's a good thing. I'm glad that brands are looking at circularity.
I'm glad that they're looking to kind of recoup what they've already put out there.
You know, it's good that they're thinking in this way, but I'm just really interested to see, well, what's the impact of these kind of resale platforms versus what their actual output is? And because they don't really tell us what their output is, then how can we really assess that?
There's a really, really good campaign on at the minute by the OR foundation called Speaks Volumes, where they're asking brands to talk about their production volumes, their annual production volumes, and none of the brands that you kind of mention have stepped up to the plate. There's a few kind of outdoorsy sportswear brands that have. There's one in the UK called Finisterre. They said they made 359, 000 pieces in 2023.
There's an Aussie brand called Kathmandu. They made a 3 million, over 3 million pieces in 2023.
So if you have that context, then you can kind of see, well, how many pieces are recirculating through their resale platforms. Then you can kind of see, well, are they offsetting anything?
If they, if they give us those production figures year on year, then we can see, okay, they're reducing product uplifting. The circularity. So at least we have some context there.
But without that it just very much feels like it's brand saying, well, we don't really want to change our core business model. We're going to leave that how it is because that's working really nicely for us and we all have nice salaries.
But let's just put, let's put this kind of resale on the side, talk about it more than we're talking about our kind of main collections and put loads of, loads of kind of focus on it and make it seem like, well, we're transforming as a brand as a result of it. So yeah, I don't know, it's kind of, it's like it's good but what's the context? We don't have it. So yeah, it's hard to say.
Colin
00:05:09.041 - 00:06:05.465
Well and then the other thing that this is, this feels very box checky, I think to Dave and myself because you get, you then see what the big announcement. We have this E commerce platform. You can send us your stuff and we'll resell it on our website.
But all of their marketing is still first quality goods, new product launches, all of those things.
And they sort of, even if they're, it's not intentional, they kind of cut the legs off from underneath the E commerce piece of it by not really talking about it much after the launch. And then it just sort of exists now. Flylo did partner with Geartrade who was a secondhand retailer to sort of drive that for them.
We also had a company called out and Back, the founder of that came on this week as another secondhand retailer and they actually will provide the E commerce initiatives for free for brands.
But they, but the founder, his comments were a lot of times they need to do it themselves before they'll finally come to him after the fact and say, yeah, can you do this for us? So it does feel like it's still kind of a very box checking exercise.
Sophie
00:06:05.765 - 00:07:36.799
Yeah. And I mean I think definitely more in the fashion space. It's, it's definitely kind of white label resale platforms happening.
So you know, or just third party services. That's kind of what we're seeing more of. So it's interesting to me to see brands putting those logistics in place themselves in the outdoor space.
I do think that's interesting. I do really want to see more of those kind of logistical movements. So I do kind of praise that.
But, but yeah, at the same time it does feel a bit box jerky and I think it's really interesting what you say about the push for a new product, there was a kind of taking it back to the fashion context because that's where I live, that's my life.
Fashion Week was quite interesting this time because there were a few brands who put kind of older but not really archival, you know, like 5, 10, 15 year old product back on the Runway. So Prada, for example, did it.
They put old season shoes in and there was a massive uplift in some cases like 78%, I think, in secondhand searches for those products. So can you imagine if like a brand did a campaign? It was like, this is our fleece from 2015. You can get it on our platform. It's super desirable.
You know, that's fantastic. I'm sure they get a cut from those sales. It's not going to completely devastate and undercut all their new sales.
They're not going to cannibalize their entire business model. Like that would be so great. I definitely want to see more of that as well.
And I think the stats for the, for the searches and this was within 24 hours. Like it was an almost instant uplift. Sounds like a secret drop in a way.
Sophie
00:07:36.847 - 00:07:37.967
Like people getting excited about that.
Sophie
00:07:37.991 - 00:07:49.955
Exactly. Yeah. They have the power to catalyze the second hand market if they were to do it.
But like you said, it's all about, well, what's out right now, what's made, what's brand new.
Sophie
00:07:50.255 - 00:08:26.965
Yeah, a campaign around a product or whatever you have like, and in addition to your new stuff too. I understand you want to promote your new stuff. I think that would go a long way to sort of putting some of our criticisms to bed.
And the other thing that they, that part of this is how they entice people to donate is then you get a gift card for new stuff. So it's like the right, it's like, hey, bring us your old stuff.
And then you know what, while you're here, here's 50 bucks off if you want to go shop around all that new stuff we got.
So again, yeah, I think that's a really good point of like, how do you not only just have it as a, as an option or something you can do to return your used goods, but then how do you continue to promote that as something that you have going for you as well?
Sophie
00:08:27.405 - 00:08:51.261
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'd be so interested to see if any brand ever would do. Maybe Levi's did this, but any brand ever did, like, like a buyback.
Imagine if they offered a buyback instead of saying, oh, we'll just give you like $20 of credit, which really doesn't cost too much, you know, does it, when you think of cost prices, if. Yeah, I don't know, I can't see it ever happening. But that would be such a massive investment, wouldn't it, in the circular economy.
And it then would stop that kind of extra.
Sophie
00:08:51.293 - 00:08:52.185
It'd be meaningful.
Sophie
00:08:52.775 - 00:08:53.915
Yeah. Yeah.
Colin
00:08:54.455 - 00:09:17.087
What about. So Codepoxy launched an upcycled collection renovo, which David and I thought sounded like a European car, but so it's.
You've driven your renovo lately. But the. What do you think about efforts like that?
I mean, again, like on the surface seems like, oh, good, you have leftover stuff, you have used product, you have unused product and you're making something out of it. Have you seen those kinds of efforts be impactful in maybe the fashion category?
Sophie
00:09:17.271 - 00:10:51.775
Yeah.
I mean, again, it's interesting because the scale of it is so small and brands really haven't been able to move past that kind of pilot, capsule collection, prototype type phase. So you're getting labels that are coming through and they're built on upcycling, like 100% upcycled labels doing really well, winning awards.
And then when they want to scale, they're having to move away from that and they're going to virgin materials and they're saying, oh, well, you know, I don't always want to just be a sustainable brand or the upcycling brand. That's the only way they can scale. So there needs to be some kind of investment in how do you productionize that, how do you scale that up?
And I think, you know, a brand like Cotopaxi potentially has the resources to do that. I mean, I know Patagonia has worked with Sway in la and they work with United Repair center in Amsterdam, London.
So it'd be good to see kind of bigger brands who have that sort of revenue and financial kind of might. Yeah. Putting their weight behind that. But I do like it.
Like, I think I like that the sort of pushing the aesthetic of it so that potentially that's more accepted. I really like Portland Garment Factory, the zero waste studio that they worked with to produce the collection. You know, I think it looks great.
If I was, if I was kind of wore that, I mean, you know, I wear lots of bright colors. I like that kind of thing, but not nercy 100% my style. But, you know, I would probably wear them if I was going to choose something like that.
So, yeah, on the, on the surface I do like it. But again, I Kind of want production figures. I want to know how much you're making new. I want to know how much you're remaker.
Producer Dave
00:10:52.335 - 00:11:37.395
One of the things we've, we've been talking about, like you said, there's so many brands, they're small, they're doing their own initiatives, even the logistics piece. But clearly the more meaningful solution is a much bigger consolidated back end aspect to this, from the collection to the processing to all of that.
And you know, even Patagonia has to third party that. And as big as Patagonia is, still it's a small, very small percentage of overall of their sales as well as the market.
So is there anybody in fashion that's looking at that from a scale perspective that could be translatable out? What do you see on that side of the equation?
Sophie
00:11:38.695 - 00:12:09.325
Yeah, very little in terms of the take back logistics. Trying to scale that up and that side of things. Yeah, I mean in house it's, it's really not happening.
Again, like I've seen, I think it was Diesel who did kind of a campaign and they looked, they wanted some of their archival denim because they wanted to relaunch it. But again, that's that small, that's kind of piecemeal. Not to jump ahead too much, but I think we are going to talk about Trashy. Trashy is the.
Sophie
00:12:09.365 - 00:12:10.101
Yeah, we are.
Sophie
00:12:10.253 - 00:12:57.885
Is the company who is looking to scale this on a, on a global level. So yeah, it's happening on a third party level, but it's, it's kind of my feeling is that it's not staying enough within the ecosystem.
The answer is still over 50% exploitation. To me, that's not true responsibility. I think, you know, it's hubris.
It's, you know, it's pushing the problem away to say, well, we can only accept so much of the problem that we create. Hang on, that's not fair. Why someone else having to kind of pay for your problem. So, yeah, it's starting to happen and I'm definitely happy to.
I'm just, I'm sort of alluding to Trashy. This sort of thing I've not mentioned before. I'm happy to elaborate. Let's talk.
Sophie
00:12:57.925 - 00:13:47.995
No, no, we're gonna get there. Next. I guess this is kind of, you know, because again, we live so much in the outdoor world.
I mean, it does sound like this is something maybe a little a feather in the outdoors cab.
It sounds like there's a lot going on here where maybe other sectors of fashion and as I tell our listeners all the time, don't don't get confused here. The outdoor industry is part of the fashion industry. We all make things the same way. So that's a good thing.
I think it's the, you know, and Dave's right.
I feel like, you know, if the, when I see the, the gear trades and the out and backs and these retailers, secondhand retailers, it's like, hey, that put, put the efforts there. Don't stop doing it. Trying to do it on your own, guys, even if you're well intended, it's going to be not that meaningful of an effort. So.
But if we can, if this is an opportunity for the industry to lead and kind of say, hey, here's how you do it here, we're actually trying some things that no one else is. That's a good thing. So pat on the back, outdoor industry, nice work.
Sophie
00:13:48.535 - 00:13:50.303
That's very generous of you.
Colin
00:13:50.479 - 00:13:54.743
Well, you know, we complain a lot on this show, so every once in a while you gotta, you gotta have.
Sophie
00:13:54.759 - 00:13:55.479
Some good stuff too.
Sophie
00:13:55.527 - 00:13:57.435
You have to, you do. It keeps it going.
Sophie
00:13:58.855 - 00:14:30.759
So on the legislation front though, so.
And this is gonna lead into the trashy conversation, last week here in California, where I live, we saw the passing of SB707, which makes producers responsible for recycling, reusing and collection of their products. This is specifically a textile driven initiative.
And to go with the conversation we just had, this bill actually calls on brands to emphasize, to reuse and repair, to emphasize reuse and repair programs for branded resale. So obviously, you know, I'm sure you were aware of this passing. You know, what are your General thoughts on SB707?
Sophie
00:14:30.927 - 00:17:34.965
Yeah, I mean, I'm glad it's happening. I'm very much not surprised that it's happening in California.
First, the blueprints that we have to go on are sort of the EU more broadly that's coming down the line, and then France, where a version of it does already exist. I mean, it's really early days, so it's difficult to know exactly what shape this is going to take.
But I think we do have clues from where it exists already. And so the kind of shape of it will be that there will be producer responsibility organizations.
So pros, they're kind of an industry driven group who basically become responsible for EPR for the extended produce responsibility.
They do everything from kind of redistributing the funds that are generated through this program to kind of really deciding what the infrastructure and the ecosystem of it looks like.
That does have to be kind of given the okay by the, you know, the people higher up in the sort of lawmaking system, but within that there are kind of quite a lot of unknowns. So for instance, it's funded by fees, basically like a per item fees. A per item fee and the fees are what's called eco modulated.
So if a garment is deemed to be more sustainable, so eg, if they say it's made of organic cotton, therefore it's more sustainable, then you'll pay a lower fee. If it's made from virgin polyester, for example, you might pay a higher fee.
However, what is deemed to be more or less sustainable is really, really up for grabs.
And there's kind of huge arguments about that within the eu and ahead of the sort of definition of that, a whole host of kind of industry organizations wrote a joint statement and they kind of pointed out the, what they call the grave shortcomings. So there was an omission of target setting for waste prevention.
So if a, if a brand was kind of lowering its production volumes, they think, well, they should have to pay a lower fee.
Leather goods were exempt from ecomodulation and also because it's a producer dominant structure, so it's basically run by the industry, for the industry, then in effect they're kind of writing their own rules. So there are some potential issues coming down the line.
But at the same time it is an opportunity to kind of get things right and sort of look at what the issues are in the EU and France and do it better and have different stakeholders involved and look at, you know, not just keeping the money within the ecosystem of California. Like, can you redistribute those funds to like proportionately to say Ghana or Kenya where the close will be accepted.
So there's a really big opportunity and I hope that California kind of runs that. But at the minute we just don't know what sort of shape it's going to take. So I'm really interested to see how it's going to pan out.
Yes, I'll be watching. Hopefully slash critically. We shall see.
Producer Dave
00:17:36.505 - 00:17:52.753
You talked about the modular fees and I know they're still kind of sussing all that out. Is there any discussion in terms of what an actual dollar or euro amount would be? I know it's sliding, but what are we talking about here?
Is it, you know.
Sophie
00:17:52.889 - 00:18:35.449
Yeah, I mean, I do know in the EU it's like a matter of cents, it's really small, but I know that advocates in Ghana are looking for as much as I think it was 50 US cents per item.
So the kind of difference in expectation from sort of, I Guess business minded policymakers and then those who are actually kind of bearing the brunt of the environmental pollution is very different. And there are a lot of arguments that the figures that have actually been put forward by policymakers aren't enough.
They're not really going to touch the sides. Dollar amount, I'm not sure. But yeah, in the EU it is.
Producer Dave
00:18:35.497 - 00:18:44.697
Small, you know, but it's good for context and just to kind of add to it. We're talking about a hang tag, right? That's what we're talking about here, the cost of a hang tag.
Sophie
00:18:44.841 - 00:18:45.565
Yes.
Producer Dave
00:18:45.985 - 00:18:47.841
So interesting.
Sophie
00:18:47.873 - 00:19:22.905
Yeah, absolutely.
And yeah, and we just, we don't know what it's going to look like and it could be, you know, what do collections look like, who's funding the sorting, what are the, you know, what are the kind of, what's the ecosystem and the parameters around. There's so much that we don't know.
And if the fee isn't high enough, then I imagine the whole kind of extended producer responsibility ecosystem keeps an ecosystem will be proportionately kind of not kind of established enough.
Sophie
00:19:23.245 - 00:19:23.985
Right.
Producer Dave
00:19:24.325 - 00:19:24.653
Yeah.
Sophie
00:19:24.669 - 00:20:04.919
It's funny that my next question and you kind of touched on it was like, what are brands going to do to likely work around this?
And it sounds like with other your examples you're giving, like they're already figuring that out, like how do we sort of like make this work for us and still get to do what we want to do without actually potentially having to comply? But yeah, it's interesting to watch. I mean, I look, you know, any movement in this is good.
I mean, I think like you still have things like the New York Fashion act that hasn't passed yet and there's other legislation out there.
You know, at some point I imagine like this snowball gained so much momentum that things actually really start happening, you know, and we go from a world where you have cascale throwing red carpet events for themselves to actual legislation that makes differences down the road. Right.
Sophie
00:20:04.967 - 00:20:17.275
So yeah, but I mean, at the same time, you know, I imagine the cascale. Sorry also, but pro, I'm sure pros will probably also throw themselves red carpet events. So we shall see.
Sophie
00:20:17.575 - 00:20:53.617
This is, I mean, just some context for some of our listeners too.
So we got some pushback when being talking about some of like the recommerce efforts of like, hey come on guys, like anything, any effort's a good effort.
And it's like, yeah, but when you, when you kind of go outside of your little kind of narrow purview of the outdoor world, and you have these kinds of conversations and you see how this typically goes. I mean, okay, great, this got signed last week.
I mean, that anyone who's aware has probably been already plotting for how they're going to deal with this. You know, whether they have to comply with it. I would assume anyone who's smart would be. So it is kind of the reality of the world.
But, you know, the more and more of these things can happen, the better it will be.
Producer Dave
00:20:53.761 - 00:21:18.037
Sophie, do you see anybody kind of over the horizon like. Like Colin just kind of said, this isn't new.
If you've been following this, you've tracked California's progress in New York's before that anybody else out there that are doing. And I know France is kind of leading this in the eu, but do you see any other.
Any other markets that are looking at this from a different perspective or trying to get ahead of it?
Sophie
00:21:18.181 - 00:23:27.065
Yeah, I think there are a couple of other European countries. I mean, I know the UK has discussed it, but I think we're just in chaos. So I don't know. I don't think that's going to happen since we left the eu.
Eu, you know, we're not doing anything right. So I think that shelved, I think. I think Sweden looking at it, but forgive me, that might be wrong.
There are other European markets anyway, but in terms of kind of outside of the eu, I'm not kind of hearing any movement. But it. That's really because they're often. They're the kind of receiving countries rather than the sender countries.
It's the sender countries that need to be kind of stepping up to the plate.
And I think, like Colin, I totally hear what listeners are saying, but I think as we move on each year, I think campaigner, consumers or activists, policymaker expectations grow and I think brand strategies and innovations need to grow with that as well. So I'd say five years ago, if a brand was doing this, I think we would have sat in and had a conversation and said, well, this is really good.
But I think now we have. We know what we know. We've seen the images of polyester waste tangled on shorelines and kind of embedded into dirt in different countries.
We have seen that. We have tangible proof of that. And I've sat at conferences where I've sat on a stage that has an audience with 300 people.
And I've heard brands say, we're doing the best we can. This is what we're doing now. You should praise us for at least doing our best.
And then I'll go into a side room where there's an audience of 50 people and a kind of a smaller community from a place where they're actually dealing with this textile waste. And they're saying, well, what we actually need is a reduction in production. This is the reality that actually we should be listening to.
So I kind of don't want to hear brands say we're doing our best because if you're in those communities, the best actually isn't good enough at the minute. And that is the reality.
And it's hard for people to hear who are probably stuck within quite archaic systems that are really slow moving and trying to push. But it is just the reality, like we have to do more and quicker.
Sophie
00:23:27.765 - 00:24:08.311
A reduction in production is exactly ultimately what we need. And it's the thing that no brand will admit to because that means a reduction in profits.
And there's a level where I understand that, like if I'm the CEO of a company, it's my job, like my job is to go make more money. But bigger picture, that is the solution here, that is the solution to make less. I mean, it kind of oversimplifies it, but it's true.
So that's a good segue into something. We want to talk about something that you wrote recently for Atmos.com about a product called Trashy.
It's also sort of a take back program in line with some things we've been talking about. Why don't just. Let's start with what is Trashy? What was sort of the basis of the article? What did you learn through writing this article?
Sophie
00:24:08.503 - 00:24:16.555
Yeah, this was really, really interesting to report on actually. So the basic question for the article is, can Trashy solve fashion's waste problem?
Producer Dave
00:24:18.595 - 00:24:21.275
Hold on. Trashy. It's called Trashy.
Sophie
00:24:21.395 - 00:24:22.107
It's called Trashy.
Producer Dave
00:24:22.131 - 00:24:23.115
I don't know if it's trashy.
Sophie
00:24:23.195 - 00:24:23.611
Trashy.
Sophie
00:24:23.643 - 00:24:25.595
Ie, was it originally featured on South Park?
Producer Dave
00:24:25.675 - 00:24:29.595
It just, it sounds like a Simpsons or a South park parody of a character. Right.
Sophie
00:24:29.635 - 00:24:31.195
And we're gonna walk in the trash bag.
Producer Dave
00:24:31.235 - 00:24:37.091
We're gonna have merchandise beach towels with Trashy on that. I'm sorry, I just was like, wow, Trashy. Okay, continue.
Sophie
00:24:37.163 - 00:28:44.319
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I guess it's a play on the fact that people treat fashion as trash. I guess. I think it's a great name usually.
Yeah, I mean, so to explain the kind of concept. So, yes, Trashy is a so called recycling platform. So you buy a trashy bag for $20, you fill it to the brim. I mean, some of them are huge.
You can put a lot of stuff in there with any textile product, you send it off and in return you get what's called trashy cash. So you'll get $20 worth of trashy cash and then that can be kind of exchanged for different rewards on their sort of rewards portal.
And that can be like money off new clothes, it can be money off food, etc, so there's like the incentive model. Basically the argument for trashy is that they say, okay, 85% of textiles go to waste. We want to solve that problem.
That was sort of the claim on the website, that was the first time article. I don't know if that claim is still on the website. Interesting to know.
Basically the promise is that 90% of what they receive, so more percentages, 90% of what they receive specifically won't go to landfill. That's the kind of promise they make. So they do admit that some of it is unusable and saveable and that will be landfilled in the U.S.
40% of everything will stay in the U.S. in some way, whether that's through resale, etc. But that means that 60% is still exported.
Now they say they're different to other exporters because they grade things into 253 different grades. So they say they're highly sorted, it's very precise.
They can kind of, they have a matchmaking, matchmaking kind of process with the markets that they supply. Therefore it doesn't go to waste. They verify what happens to it. So that's kind of, that's kind of the basis of it.
And it like, you know, I am kind of split over this because on the one hand something does need to be done. We can't be letting textiles go to inter landfill anywhere. And they do kind of need to be caught up in that system.
And when I was speaking to the founder, I've got the quote in front of me actually because I wanted to get it right. So she says, I can't find the market mechanism for slowing down the consumption pattern.
As long as there's a five dollar bikini, someone's going to buy it. So how do we become a facilitator for a collection mechanism that resonates with consumers and provides some value.
Like I understand that she can't fix the underlying industry. So she's trying to do something about all the waste.
But at the same time the other people that I spoke to about, you know, does this highly sorted process help? Say well, what we are receiving is already sorted. So sorting doesn't necessarily fix the problem. And there's also the question of the validation.
So 90% of what they receive doesn't go to landfill, but there needs to be an asterisk because really that's 90% of what they receive stays out of landfill until the point of receipt. So you send me a T shirt, I receive it. It doesn't, you know, there you go. That stood out of landfill.
But then I could immediately go and throw it in the bin. So, because the downstream is so diluted, I think that's a really bold claim to make without a caveat or any further context.
So that's kind of one issue.
On the other side of things, the kind of factor that I thought would be an issue, which is the kind of reward system, I was like, okay, surely that's pushing more consumerism.
Speaking to consumer psychologists, it's really interesting to see that that's actually kind of necessary for behavior change, as much as that's quite like, I'm not really necessarily very comfortable with that reality. Without that, a lot of people just wouldn't do it. They would just throw their clothes in the bin.
And the stats do kind of show that people are moving away a little bit from buying more stuff and looking to kind of experience as well. So there is, like, a positive side to that. It's very. This is like Nicorette for Zinn to.
Sophie
00:28:44.327 - 00:28:46.543
Get off the cigarettes, is what it sounds like.
Producer Dave
00:28:46.679 - 00:28:53.247
Well, it is that within any antidote lies a little bit of the poison you're trying to get rid of.
Sophie
00:28:53.271 - 00:28:56.335
I used to go on heroin, and now I'm on methadone, you know. That's right.
Sophie
00:28:56.495 - 00:28:56.815
Yeah.
Producer Dave
00:28:56.855 - 00:28:57.391
Yeah.
Sophie
00:28:57.543 - 00:29:40.047
But I mean, I would say, I think something that I sort of really balked at was a social media, because you've got people saying, like, you know, I. I need to go shopping for my holiday, so let me get rid of all this stuff.
And I think that messaging is really unhealthy and, like, that should change. So I did have kind of take issue with that in the article, because I know you sort of need to have that fun side to it. But is that.
Is that tacitly just saying, well, this is fine to just throw stuff away and buy more stuff. That for me, that doesn't.
In fact, that sort of antithesis to what she was saying about that not finding the market mechanism, but is she pushing that market then with that or not? Not she the founder specifically, but the model of trashy.
Sophie
00:29:40.111 - 00:29:40.599
Right.
Sophie
00:29:40.727 - 00:29:52.115
Is it. Is it pushing that side of things further? Is it fueling it? So it's yeah, it was very interesting and I felt conflicted and surprised.
It was, yeah, it was a real.
Sophie
00:29:52.975 - 00:30:45.231
It's funny you bring up the quote because that was my takeaway from the article too is like the founder of this seems like the most interesting part of this.
Like she, like it seems like she understands the assignment in a way, but also like, well, still we gotta do something so it'll be interesting to see what she does going forward or how this evolves. As you look at it though, just if you were just giving on pure, like we're a little inside baseball here, right?
So if this were just pure advice for a consumer. Because I think comparing this against just a secondhand retailer. Right. So again, we talk a lot about gear trade here. Gear trade has done it.
So you can sell those, you can sell stuff, you can get money for your stuff.
They'll send you a box, you can ship it, they make it really simple and then it's like just here you go, you send it to them and yeah, you can get some credit or whatever it is.
Would you say it's better to support a secondhand retailer like that or to try something like trashy and like what's the better outcome for the stuff? I guess in terms of like if you're, if you care about your, where your stuff goes.
Sophie
00:30:45.383 - 00:31:49.975
Yeah, yeah. I mean for me the kind of pinnacle is keeping it within your locality basically.
So if you can swap it with your friends and families, you can sell it within your country, then I think that's really good.
If you can, if it's scraps, if you can donate them to like a local fashion school, I think that's great because you're keeping it within your borders. But at the same time there are, there are services.
So in the article I mentioned Sway, for those of you who are lucky to, lucky enough to live in la, I'm really jealous because they do basically the same thing. You know, they do a take back bag, they have an incentive but everything is domestic and they, they remake, they upcycle, they resell.
They're such a fantastic, just kind of end to end remaking production facility. I just basically want one of those in every city.
So the first port of call should really be thinking like, how do I keep this local and stop it becoming someone else's problem.
So if a resale, you know, if a resale platform is kind of doing that and is doing domestic sales, then yeah, great, I think that's another good option.
Producer Dave
00:31:50.275 - 00:32:35.431
This also kind of brings up a couple points. One, the need of traceability within the chain. Right. Because you talked about. And then secondly is the. That we go back to the durability aspect.
Right. In the sense of, you know, because if you, if it's not durable, you can't reuse it. Right.
And so then it becomes more into a recycle or a repurpose which then has collection and processing and all of these pieces to it.
So just kind of interesting though, the idea of that the traceability which comes up in the deep weeds of supply chain really does have, though, this almost consumer necessary aspect to it in terms of ensuring the quality of what's being collected.
Sophie
00:32:35.583 - 00:32:59.871
Yeah.
And I mean, conveniently, that does link back to SB707 because you would hope that durability would be one of the factors for the eco modulation and therefore you would hope that that would drive durability. So again, we will see.
But I think it's just proof that kind of every single aspect of this whole conundrum is so connected, you can't do one without the other.
Producer Dave
00:33:00.023 - 00:33:17.839
No. And it is a holistic. We talk a lot about it. It is a holistic solution. There's just no one piece is going to solve it.
It's going to be taking all these pieces together.
I'm still just fascinated by the idea though, that they're kind of proving out that the, the answer to overconsumption is actually promoting consumption.
Sophie
00:33:17.967 - 00:33:18.519
Right.
Sophie
00:33:18.647 - 00:33:19.247
Behavior.
Producer Dave
00:33:19.351 - 00:33:36.427
Right. That is just Colin. It reminds me of, of course, outdoor retailer in Salt Lake City where they have a.
You cannot have two drinks in front of you, so you have to make sure that you slam and consume the first drink before you can get the second. And seems like kind of what we're going on with here.
Sophie
00:33:36.571 - 00:33:54.795
I think they fixed that, but I don't think that exists anymore in Utah. So maybe that means that's hope for the fashion space.
And, and you know, hey, you know, Sophie, if there is a solution to your, your wanting of Sway, you could just move to la. I mean, I think, yeah, I've seen your Instagram. I think you'd fit in very well in Southern California.
Sophie
00:33:54.915 - 00:33:58.175
I think I would too. If anyone's got, you know, Visa connections, just let.
Sophie
00:33:59.055 - 00:34:00.751
We could do this in person then.
Producer Dave
00:34:00.903 - 00:34:07.075
Visa, MasterCard, American Express, they take them all. Don't you worry. Don't you worry. It is la.
Sophie
00:34:07.495 - 00:34:34.415
All right, well, that gets us to our last topic, which is where we clear out and we let our friend Sophie Benson talk about what's happening this week in Greenwashing. Greenwashing, as ever, we know, happens in every sector of making stuff not even just in probably fashion and apparel.
So we like to highlight some of the stories of what brands are up to hide the efforts, we'll hide their efforts to not make things more responsibly, I suppose is the best way to put it.
Sophie
00:34:34.835 - 00:34:59.083
Yeah, I mean, so this week I'm kind of, kind of putting the frighteners on brands basically because I want to let them know that there's a crackdown coming. There was a kind of a bit of a crackdown a few years ago, but it is happening again.
It's like there's like a doubling down so here in the UK and as I think I've said before, like we truly are the capital of fast fashion. Like I'm sorry, it's our fault. So in 2021 maybe you can't come.
Sophie
00:34:59.099 - 00:35:01.255
To LA, we need you over.
Sophie
00:35:01.935 - 00:35:51.331
Okay, I'll hold down the thought. So 2021 there was the green claims code but now three years later, brands just continued their shenanigans.
So the Consumer Markets Authority said, right, okay, we're doing this again.
There's like we've got even kind of harder guidelines for you and then once these are issued we're kind of going to be cracking down and there's going to be strengthened consumer powers and we will have the power to find businesses up to 10% of their worldwide turnover. So that's huge, huge if they break the law. So this is kind of like a shot across the barrels.
This is like, okay, this is the second time we're telling you this is your final warning. You have to stop doing this stuff. And they have done an investigation of 17 well known brands who they won't name.
But I bet I could write them all down and listen, they would be 100%. Right.
Sophie
00:35:51.443 - 00:35:53.495
Should we speculate for a moment or.
Sophie
00:35:54.035 - 00:36:00.455
Well, I don't know, I don't know, I don't have legal aid so let's not, I'll DM you after.
Producer Dave
00:36:01.915 - 00:36:04.883
Just because they're guilty doesn't mean they're not vindictive.
Sophie
00:36:05.059 - 00:36:05.467
So.
Sophie
00:36:05.531 - 00:36:07.455
Yeah, right, exactly, exactly.
Sophie
00:36:07.915 - 00:37:41.731
So they, they were sent letters of concern to highlight their green claims that they'd wrongly made. Whether it's like use of vague terms or products being wrongly included in eco ranges. So I'm interested in this. I'm kind of locked in.
I want to see what outcome of this. This is interesting.
And then another kind of thing to watch, another thing that I think is really interesting happening in greenwashing is that Shein has been investigated which yes, we knew they would, but they're actually being investigated by an Italian watchdog and it's a Dublin based company that manages Shein's website in Italy. So we all know that kind of Shein start in China, then they moved to Singapore and a lot of people felt they were sort of untouchable.
But it's interesting that regulators are finding these ways to actually crack down on companies in their other markets because you know we're talking about regulation like the New York Fashion act is brands operating in New York. SB 707 is going to be brands that kind of operate in California.
But this is kind of regulators are finding ways to sort of these companies that aren't operating in their market and say, ah, we've got you here because you have an office here, you have this person in charge of your website here.
So I just, I'm kind of hoping this is like the start of a snowball and brands see this as a bit of a warning and they start like, I don't know if they all have that like green leaf, don't they, next to that so called eco products. Like I just want to see those removed. I want to see some truth. So yeah, I think this is interesting.
I really like that regulators are being quite wily about this. Yeah. So I want to see where this goes. I've got my eyes on some certain brands.
Sophie
00:37:41.883 - 00:37:49.219
Do we know what they're actually going out to them for in Italy? Do we know specifically or not? Or do we just know that they're sort of broadly looking into it?
Sophie
00:37:49.347 - 00:38:23.155
So they're going after the fact that they have potentially misled consumers with environmental claims. And so they're focusing on I think two hashtags. I'm being very careful. So they have Shein in the know, they have evolution, which is awful.
And then they also have a social responsibility section of their website. So they're basically going after those specific things as markers of their so called sustainability. So yeah, I mean I love that.
It's kind of just like a single tagline can be your downfall. So we'll see, we'll see.
Sophie
00:38:23.615 - 00:38:32.243
Dave's specialty is in branding and creative. So Dave, I want to put 60 seconds on the clock and have you go trashy versus evolution about which one works and which one doesn't.
Producer Dave
00:38:32.319 - 00:38:33.491
Oh, oh, come on.
Sophie
00:38:33.563 - 00:38:33.923
60 seconds.
Producer Dave
00:38:33.961 - 00:38:44.731
I don't think you could do it in 60 seconds. No, it's trashy. Are you kidding me? Because you could run with that. Like I said, there's merchandising opportunities here.
There's a kids cartoon in the making.
Sophie
00:38:44.883 - 00:38:50.427
I mean, Trashy could be actively working against the best interests of the world. And Dave doesn't care. He's all right.
Producer Dave
00:38:50.491 - 00:38:53.371
Cute little guy rocking across the screen. You got it.
Sophie
00:38:53.523 - 00:38:54.691
Evolution.
Sophie
00:38:54.883 - 00:38:55.235
Yeah.
Producer Dave
00:38:55.275 - 00:38:55.691
I don't.
Sophie
00:38:55.763 - 00:38:56.435
Come on.
Producer Dave
00:38:56.595 - 00:38:58.475
That's just. That's just awful.
Sophie
00:38:58.555 - 00:39:10.715
That's sort of a. I don't know, like a maga. Political candidates, like something. Yeah, there's just. Wow. All right, well, these are some big ones.
Those are good ones there, Sophie. Nice job.
Sophie
00:39:11.255 - 00:39:12.395
There's always something.
Producer Dave
00:39:12.935 - 00:39:13.391
It is.
Sophie
00:39:13.423 - 00:39:15.303
It's always something going on in greenwashing.
Sophie
00:39:15.439 - 00:39:16.431
Or you can wrap it up there.
Sophie
00:39:16.463 - 00:39:22.431
Sophie, thank you as always for coming on. Hopefully we don't wait as long in between appearances. Now. We've both been pretty busy. We've all been busy, so.
Sophie
00:39:22.503 - 00:39:26.515
Yes, I know. We try our best. Let's. Yeah, let's try and get something in the calendar.
Sophie
00:39:27.005 - 00:39:29.157
Absolutely. All right, Sophie, thanks for coming on.
Sophie
00:39:29.301 - 00:39:29.925
Thanks.
Producer Dave
00:39:30.045 - 00:39:30.865
Thank you.
Colin
00:39:31.285 - 00:40:00.575
All right, big thanks to our guest today, Sophie Benson.
You can read her work, including her full breakdown of Trashy, and order her book by heading to sophiebenson.com the Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight LLC. Today's episode was produced by David Karstad with art direction provided by Sarah the Sandworm Gensert.
I'm Colin Schrute and here to take us out, it's Chris Demakes who's in Australia right now. He's coming to us from Australia, guys, and he's gonna sing the rock Fight fight song. We'll see you next time. Rock fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:40:00.655 - 00:41:01.395
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