Today Colin opens the show by talking about the amount of outdoor industry events scheduled to be held in just a few months (aka Junepocalypse) as well as the recently announced details for The Summit at the Outside Festival.
Then he is joined by outdoor industry insider and consigliere to The Rock Fight, Eoin Comerford and "Producer" Dave to react to the recently launched Speed Loafer from Hoka.
They also talk about how these big swings by brands can lead to a weaker outdoor industry and potentially put us on a path that would be similar to the fate currently being suffered by the surf industry.
Lastly Colin wraps up the show with a Hoka themed edition of The Parting Shot!
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Episode Transcript
Colin True
00:00:00.400 - 00:02:28.892
Way back last summer, the Rock Fight broke the news that Switchback Spring, the new outdoor industry gathering for education, networking and business, will be coming to Nashville on 6-16-18 of this year.
And last week we shared how the gathering is making serious headway with some of the biggest and best loved brands in the outdoor world with confirmed exhibitors including arc'teryx, the North Face, Birkenstock Mountain Hardwear, and Darn Tough. Not to mention Coat Epoxy, Eagle Creek, Helinox, Teva, Rumpel and Scarpa, or even Eagles Nest Outfitters, Sunto, Cliff, Altra and Toad and company.
And look. Then this week we learned that Howler brothers, Marmot, LifeStraw, Rossignol and Liberty Mountain, they're all coming to Switchback.
And there's even more, but we're a little limited on time, so look, it's an impressive list.
And when you combine the who's who of brands with Switchback Springs emphasis on education, community and ideas, the event is shaping up to be the go to meetup for specialty retailers, brands, media and outdoor organizations. Registration is open. Head over to switchbackevent.com and register today. And be sure to save me a seat and a hot chicken sandwich in Nashville.
Welcome to the Rock Plate where we speak out truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True.
It's Monday and today we're going to check in on how outdoor industry events, AKA Junepocalypse is setting up. And then our industry insider and I take a look at why some excessive moves by footwear brands are maybe a bad sign for the industry's future.
But but before we get to that, come back to the Rock Fight this Wednesday when outdoor journalist Justin Hausman and I will be taking on the latest headlines to come out of the outdoor adventure community. Also, come back this Friday where we feature special guests for my own hot takes.
It's Monday, so You only have one more day to subscribe to Rock Fight's weekly newsletter. News from the front head to RockFight Co to sign up today.
And lastly, if you're new around here, or even if you're not, please subscribe and join the Rock Fight by lobbing a stone at the follow button on whatever podcast app you are listening to us on. And please give us that five star rating. All right, stick around. We'll be right back. You're listening to Rock Fight Radio.
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Colin True
00:03:34.984 - 00:13:13.562
On once and you'll ask for more. And now back to the show. All right, today's opening shot is presented by Garage Grown Gear, your hub for ultralight gear.
Learn more by heading to garagegrowngear.com and before we get into our big footwear conversation with producer Dave and Owen, I want to talk about something here. We're officially in February, which means we're only four months away from, what do you want to call it? The Junepocalypse? The Convergence?
The which city do you want to catch COVID in Extravaganza? I'm of course referring to the packed schedule of events that happen in June that are all looking to attract the attention of the outdoor industry.
These events are, of course, not all direct competitors, as some are more regional or audience specific. But from Memorial day weekend through June 30, here is the rundown of everything I could find.
And if I missed one of these events, shoot me an email@myrockfightmail.com so I can rectify that. These are also not in chronological order. These are just the events as I see them happening in June. Let's go through it.
First up, the Outside Festival. Then we got the Grassroots Outdoor Alliance Connect. We got three different WW SRA shows in the Northwest, California and Utah.
Four, if you go back and include the week before Memorial Day, which is the Colorado show. We also have Switchback Spring. We have the Midwest Reps Regional show in Michigan. We have Outdoor retailer.
We have three different 360 Adventure Collective shows in New England, the Mid Atlantic and the Southeast. We have two Outdoor Market Alliance Market Weeks. One, the week before Memorial Day, but then one at the end of June.
And then lastly we have the GoPro Mountain Games and then if we want to extend it out a week in July, we even get the Outdoor Market Alliance Media Show. So this is one beefy list. And you know what? Looking at it and running through it like that, I change my mind if I missed anything, don't email me.
I'm good. We got enough to talk about here.
So the why June debate will continue to rage, no doubt, but clearly it's the default timing for these things at this point. I even moderated a panel at last fall's Outdoor Media Summit which featured the show directors of Goa Connect, Switchback and Outdoor Retailer.
And the question of course came up from someone in the audience, why are you all in June? And that's its own topic that I don't want to unpack today.
But the bottom line is that when it comes to the events on this list that impact order writing and the flow out of actual wholesale business, June is the month.
10 of the events listed here are rep, brand and retailer focused shows where the sales agents of the brands with the most market share meet with the specialty retailers with the most buying power and ability to determine trends and to a certain extent, the success in future seasons of the outdoor industry. Two of the events on this list, Switchback and Outdoor Retailer, are vying to be the temperature setting national gathering of the industry.
They'll both attempt to demonstrate the quote business gets done here element of having retailers and brands in the building together. And to a certain extent there is truth there. But that's not what those shows are about.
If we've learned anything over the past decade is that the value of those big gatherings are in the gatherings themselves. And if the ad you heard at the beginning of this episode is any indication, Switchback is leading this race.
And I'm not saying that because I'm bought and paid for by Switchback. It's impossible to hear that initial list of brands who are heading to Nashville this summer and not say they are the frontrunner here.
And then we have the more consumer focused events like the Outside Festival and GoPro games.
Now I'll be honest, I only included the GoPro games out of respect for their longevity and the fact that it's an outdoor themed event that's held in the mountains and probably the most pure representation of the most core part of our community.
I mean, watch a promo video for this event and it's all uphill trudging and downhill biking and kayak rodeoing and lots of white faces outside of a ski base lodge, drinking beer, listening to music that features acoustic guitars and fiddles. It's as close as we'll get to stepping into a time machine and heading back to the late 90s, early 2000s era of the outdoors.
And I say that with no malice.
If anything, we need to be honest and say that this is the incumbent part of our community and when we have conversations around inclusion and diversification, this is who we're focused on. But let's move on to the last consumer event, which is the Outside Festival.
I've come a long way on this event from initially questioning if it would happen at all, a question I stand behind given the flighty nature Outside has handled some of their recent announcements and developments, but clearly the festival was a great move by them.
Having an outdoor themed music festival that is rooted in the music and allowing the outdoor vibes to settle in around that North Star is a great way to provide a path to a more inclusive outdoor event.
But there is one element of the Outside Festival that I'm kind of struggling with, and it's their Industry Day, their Industry Focus day, which they call the Summit. And last week they put out a press release announcing that registration for the Summit is open and announcing who would be speaking at the event.
Now, Outside claims the Summit is, quote, the networking event of the year and it comes with a minimum $700 price tag. $700. I don't know if I should attend or not, and here's why.
When I hear the words outdoor industry, given my background, I immediately think of the business of going outside as it pertains to the making and selling of consumer outdoor goods by brands and retailers. That's the I know. But there are also sides of the outdoor industry that are recreation focused, right? Adventure guides and resorts and events.
There's also the conservation side of the industry, those who build trails or pursue access and protections for where we recreate. And then there's also the parts of the industry that aren't even human powered at all.
Things like boating and RVing, hunting, fishing, those kinds of things. And looking at who Outside is bringing in to speak at the Summit, I don't really know who they're trying to attract to attend.
So to me that means they want everyone to attend. Looking at their lineup of speakers, there are some names that are interesting, but what can we expect here?
I mostly find these types of panels to be pretty toothless and lacking purpose. That's not a shot at Outside. I mean that about any type of panel this way.
I don't really find a lot of takeaways when I listen to people speak on a panel. For example, here the Summit will feature Reed Hastings, who co founded Netflix and now owns Utah's Powder Mountain.
There are certainly things I'd be interested in hearing Reed Hastings talk about. I have a million Netflix related questions.
I also have questions about the controversies that have come up since he has taken over Powder Mountain, but I'm highly doubtful in this very public forum where people are paying to come into it that that's what he'll be talking about at the Summit.
And because my history with these types of panels rarely have actionable outcomes for me, it honestly just comes down to the cost and time about whether or not I want to attend. I consider myself to be the target audience for something like the Summit.
I mean, even if I feel like the panelists don't offer a lot to me personally, it'd be interesting in attending. So I could report back on it here in the podcast because this is an industry focused show and this is an industry event.
But then that comes to the logistics and the cost alone is going to keep me away. I mean, 700 bucks, I mean it also goes up all the way over 800 bucks.
And to be fair, each level of pricing does come with access to the broader festival. But I'm not interested in flying to Denver for any music festival. The main event just isn't for me.
I mean, I wouldn't go to the music festival part of this if it was held in Petco park, which is 30 minutes from my house, that I'm not interested in, that I'm more interested in the Summit than I am in the festival. But the cost is simply too high for a one day event.
I mean, compare the $700 price range to attending the running event, which is a 520 to $945 price range for a three day show that starts with their own version of the Summit. So seriously, like, hey, where's the $150 like summit only badge?
I still probably wouldn't fly in for that, but if I was local, I would absolutely check out the event for a price like that.
And this is where I tie it all together so it doesn't look like I'm taking shots at outside for no good reason, considering the timing, the content and the cost.
And then compare that against the mountain of other industry events that are happening in the weeks afterwards, many of which feel more relevant to what I'm interested in as it pertains to the outdoor industry, it becomes pretty easy to pass on. And for all my shots at outside over the years, I don't want that. I mean, come on outside. Make it harder for me to say no.
Firstly, just move your event to August. There's like nothing going on in August.
I mean, aren't the Front Range thunderstorms that everybody talks about less common in August versus late May? It's like a win win right there.
Because cost or intent aside, there are going to be people who want to attend the festival but simply can't because they have another industry event that they have to attend. Like I always say, if anyone outside wants to join me to talk about this, Please reach out myrockfightmail.com, we'd love to have you on the show.
We'd love to talk about any of these decisions you guys make. I find it fascinating. So, yeah, outdoor industry events will continue to be a topic we cover here on the Rock Fight.
You could say you're sick of that topic, but they absolutely continue to dominate industry conversations. Also, like I said before, the opening shot is presented by your hub for ultralight gear, Garage Growing Gear.
And hey, you want to know what's new this week on Garage Growing Gear, three more new brands. Lots of small Dyneema goodies from a new company called Ardwolf. Ardwolf Aar D W L F Aardwolf. What a great name.
An 8 ounce chair from no Matter Products and some performance women's underwear from Yonderpair. Guys, every week we talk about brands at ggg, and every week I'm blown away by the names and categories they play in.
If you're sick of the sea of sameness in the outdoor space, maybe you should be a little curious to see what's new at GGG. Head to garagegrowngear.com and search new to see all the brands you need to know about or click the link in the show notes.
All right, guys, it's time. Let's get into our conversation.
This week's conversation with rockvlight's resident outdoor industry insider, Rock Fight's consigliere, our most trusted lieutenant, Owen Comerford. All right.
Joining producer Dave and myself like he does every week here on the Rock Fight, it's the outdoor industry insider himself, our own outdoor consigliere, it's Owen Comerford. What's up, Owen?
Eoin Comerford
00:13:13.706 - 00:13:15.270
Hey, guys. How's it going?
Producer Dave
00:13:15.570 - 00:13:16.474
Good, good.
Colin True
00:13:16.562 - 00:13:19.530
It's, you know, we're not in Key Largo. That's where you are.
Eoin Comerford
00:13:19.650 - 00:13:43.690
You know, somebody has to Be Colin, so it may as well be me. We're right across the street from the Caribbean Club, which was where the movie with Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall was filmed. Yeah.
Called Key Largo. Yeah, no, it's great down here. And actually, Caribbean Club is an awesome dive bar right on the water. Cash only, you know, just. It's a good spot.
Colin True
00:13:44.030 - 00:13:49.446
All right, well, if you're looking for Owen's autograph, go to the Caribbean Club tonight. That's right. You know. Yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:13:49.478 - 00:13:52.406
Or karaoke on Wednesday nights if you want to.
Colin True
00:13:52.478 - 00:13:53.586
What's your go to song?
Eoin Comerford
00:13:53.718 - 00:13:56.762
If you. Al Green, Let's Stay Together.
Colin True
00:13:56.946 - 00:13:59.418
Oh, wow, you had an answer.
Eoin Comerford
00:13:59.594 - 00:14:00.954
I don't have an answer.
Producer Dave
00:14:01.082 - 00:14:02.426
Yes. Yes.
Colin True
00:14:02.538 - 00:14:03.338
That's amazing.
Eoin Comerford
00:14:03.434 - 00:14:06.554
Yeah, don't get me started. Really? Oh, man.
Producer Dave
00:14:06.642 - 00:14:08.874
Okay, I'm bringing wine.
Colin True
00:14:09.002 - 00:14:10.954
I'm bringing a karaoke song. Dave.
Eoin Comerford
00:14:11.002 - 00:14:11.990
No, I do not.
Colin True
00:14:13.170 - 00:14:15.322
Maybe Piano Man. I could sing Piano Man.
Eoin Comerford
00:14:15.426 - 00:14:20.762
Then back up is Suspicious Minds by Elvis, obviously.
Colin True
00:14:20.906 - 00:15:16.656
All right, guys, well, listen, this is why I love making this podcast, because I love talking about the outdoor industry in general, but sometimes in the show, we're in the weeds with business decisions and management changes, and we're going to talk a little bit about that later on. But sometimes days like today, we just want to talk about dumbass shoes. All right?
And a couple of weeks ago, I got an email from some alert listeners that HOKA was releasing what they are calling the Speed loafer. It's a $185 sneaker loafer combo with a classic leather loafer upper, complete with tassels, not a penny loafer. Now, it's a. It's a.
It's a tassel loafer that is built on the chassis of a Hoka Speedgoat 5. And I shared that shoe with my rock fight cohorts here. And our industry insider, he declared that this. He thought this was a fake shoe.
And to post it about it on LinkedIn, like, throwing it out there the world. And as it turns out, as of the. As of this recording, January 31st, not fake and very sold out.
Eoin Comerford
00:15:16.798 - 00:16:19.672
I still say it's bullshit. I think it's a communist plot. It's fake news. Yeah. I mean, come on, acknowledge its existence first.
Give our listeners, if they haven't seen it, 2 seconds to Google Hocus Speed Loafer. You'll see it in all its glory.
And the first time I saw that, it looked exactly like every other outdoor April Fools where they Photoshop, whatever, some core technology that they have onto something that, you know, kind of could maybe, but doesn't really make any sense, right? Classic Photoshop. April Fool's joke. And then I start reading, I read the description and it's like, okay, it's got a speed tassel.
I'm like, come on, somebody is taking, you know, there's no way it's a speed tassel. But then I'm like, well, what's this Speed tassel? So this speed tassel, actually the laces come together at the speed tassel and it's like a quick.
It's got a little spring loaded, you.
Colin True
00:16:19.696 - 00:16:23.864
Know, it's like a bungee. It's like a thing around your waist in your Gore Tex jacket or whatever.
Eoin Comerford
00:16:23.912 - 00:16:53.510
But I'm looking at this thing going, well, hold on. You know, the tassels themselves are lace tips. Right. So there's like six lace tips in the tassel. So even if you are, you know, tightening.
I really, I thought a lot about this. Even if you're tightening the lace that goes around the, you know, the top edge of the shoe, where else am I tightening?
You know, it's just like a full, you know, heel, you know, inner body tight. I don't know. I was like, there's no fucking way that this is real.
Colin True
00:16:54.290 - 00:17:04.442
I think your first mistake was thinking that Deckers and Hoga had the creativity to do this two months early, before April 1st. And probably, you know, this would have just been an April 1st thing.
Eoin Comerford
00:17:04.546 - 00:17:31.970
I thought that somebody in marketing. Well, first of all, I think probably my first mistake was thinking that anybody in the outside outdoor industry has a sense of humor.
So that was probably my first mistake because I really thought that they were just trolling New Balance with their loafer. Right. Which is the. What's that one called? The 1904 or something? Because they came up with the New Balance one.
Colin True
00:17:32.270 - 00:17:35.366
Yeah. Which not much better, frankly.
Eoin Comerford
00:17:35.478 - 00:17:44.420
Yeah. But at least, yes, it is a loafer style in the sense that it's got the loafer mechanism, but the upper uses more of a technical.
Colin True
00:17:44.590 - 00:17:47.496
It looks more like a new balance than this thing does from hoka.
Eoin Comerford
00:17:47.528 - 00:18:12.390
Yeah, I mean, it's basically, it's a new balance, but instead of being lace up, it's a loafer. Okay. This, I mean, this thing, again, hopefully you've had our listeners have had a chance to look it up.
It is a classic black leather, you know, top grain loafer sandwiched on top of a Speedgoat 5, you know, midsole outsole. Exactly. I mean, it's. Yeah, yeah, it's. Yeah.
Colin True
00:18:12.810 - 00:19:10.910
I was not. I was convinced it was real one for kind of what you're saying, Like, I just don't think people have that much of a. That good of a sense of humor.
Also, the coverage in Footwear News was pretty earnest, and I don't think that those guys would have been in on the joke. I don't know. I think they just would have chosen not to do it.
And I did kind of message someone over, I know, at Footwear News, like, hey, is this real? And they said, yes now.
But your point is well founded because just on this podcast a week ago, producer Dave made a joke about a pair of ultra lone peaks and like black and loganberry and I. And you guys all chuckled it. I'm like, oh, is that real?
Cause it just like, yeah, that sounds like a color that would exist in the footwear world because of how boring things typically are these days, you know, so it's, it's not to look at this and think, like, is that really real? But also it's not surprising that it is because of how unoriginal a lot of things are.
Dave, I am curious, as our resident, like, Birkenstock fan and more, you know, regular shoe guy, what do you think of the speed loafer?
Producer Dave
00:19:11.330 - 00:19:29.830
I have come to determine that it is definitely a hybrid fusion of a loafer and a running shoe. However, it is allergic to bee stings and it has been stung and it is just swollen up and looks awkward. And I don't know what to do with it for sure.
Eoin Comerford
00:19:33.090 - 00:19:33.562
I don't know.
Producer Dave
00:19:33.586 - 00:19:34.910
It looks like a clown shoe.
Eoin Comerford
00:19:35.310 - 00:20:12.550
If there's a knock on hoka, and their results just came out and they had another record quarter and sales are through the roof, so who am I to say a thing, but if there's a knock on HOKA is that it's become the old fart shoe, right? It's big, it's comfy, it's great for walking around the mall.
I mean, at what point does the fact that it's your mom's walking shoe and my mom is 85, at what point does that become baggage for the brand? And like, this is almost like, oh, no, we're embracing that shit. I mean, we're going full well.
Colin True
00:20:12.590 - 00:20:49.826
They've done a lot of really good work because they started off, we've talked about in the pod before about how those original hokas were functionally out of people had interest in them, but were just not great looking pieces of footwear, to put it lightly.
And they've done a lot of work to make it much more palatable and make it just a faster looking Shoe and something that maybe a younger person would be attracted to. And this is kind of just going fully the other direction. To your point. It does, but you bring up their earnings.
Like this is what I wrote on your LinkedIn post. I think it just feels like they have fuck you money. They're like, ah, sure, whatever. Like whatever. We, we, we have the golden touch.
Whatever we touch right now, just sign us up for another 30% growth next quarter. That's exactly what this feels like.
Eoin Comerford
00:20:49.978 - 00:20:54.466
Do you have fuck you brand equity? That's my question, Dave.
Colin True
00:20:54.498 - 00:20:56.338
Does anyone have fuck you brand equity?
Producer Dave
00:20:56.434 - 00:21:34.196
Oh yeah, they do. The bigger you get, the more that you have.
I mean, look, once you're a billion dollars, you can screw up a lot and it still takes a long time to come to the bottom of that. I mean, look at Reebok for goodness sake. They existed for decades with no real shot of ever growing again and they just kept going backwards.
So I don't know if it falls into, you know, danger zone, but you know, yeah, to your point, they can, they can play around and look, like Owen just said, their track record's pretty good with the clown shoe. So, you know, like I said, I think it looks like it was stung by a bee. That might be the next big thing.
Colin True
00:21:34.348 - 00:21:41.136
Do we need to revise the zombie rules? Like if you achieve a billion doll, are you forbidden from becoming a zombie?
Producer Dave
00:21:41.168 - 00:22:01.740
Like, no, you become a zombie horde, Colin. It's not just a single zombie. At that point you're a much bigger entity.
You roam the countryside, you devour not just individuals, but whole collectives and farms and civilizations go down as you just move until one day you become part of the stable of authentic brands. It's just really, there is a life path to this.
Eoin Comerford
00:22:02.040 - 00:22:03.648
We'll get to them in a second.
Colin True
00:22:03.704 - 00:22:05.168
You're definitely talking about them today.
Eoin Comerford
00:22:05.224 - 00:22:12.280
Go ahead. So speaking of crazy clan shoes, have you seen the new Mizuno Waiver Rebellion Pro3?
Colin True
00:22:12.900 - 00:22:24.604
I, I have, yeah, I saw and I looked at it again when I saw you added it to the notes today.
I mean all of these guys will have linked in the show notes and we'll, we'll probably take this segment and put it on YouTube so there's @ least some visuals to go with this. But go, go ahead. Yeah, yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:22:24.652 - 00:22:57.610
I mean it's not a bad looking shoe. I, you know, I mean it's in, it's in sort of the mode of the current shoes or whatever else.
But this thing I, this platform shoes in the 70s were, were lower than this thing. It's got a 61 millimeter stack at the heel that is ins. I don't know how. I mean, I guess some people love it.
So, you know, again, I'm not a runner, so who am I? But it just, it looks like you're like wearing high heels out there. It's. It's kind of wild.
Colin True
00:22:57.770 - 00:23:26.970
But at least that has, I mean, there's a function to that, right? That that's a design choice in the name of creating a different type of running platform for a running shoe.
Like, if I saw someone just walking in the airport with that, you'd be like, what are you? Like, can you even walk comfortably in that shoe? It's a little bizarre, but at least there's a purpose there.
I mean, I guess there's a purpose behind the Speed Loafer too. Can we not call it the Speed Loafer? Like loaf, like, what does loaf mean? Or adding speed to the name.
It's just like, it doesn't, it just doesn't work for me.
Eoin Comerford
00:23:27.010 - 00:23:32.790
It's the Speed Loafer, Colin. They own that now and you can't take that away from them.
Colin True
00:23:33.170 - 00:24:55.134
Well, and this is a good segue into the conversation I wanted to have today because I do want to have a serious conversation on footwear today. Like, I brought up the thing we said about last week about the ultra color and me just sort of accepting that that was probably a real color.
The debate on this, it's like, if this had been fake, I would have been like, wow, good for you, Hoka. But my gut instinct was like, it's not fake because of kind of how ridiculous it is. Like, yeah, of course they're doing something like this.
I mean, and on top of that, we have, we've talked on this podcast at length and awarded it the ugliest shoe of 2024. We had the Meryl Burton collaboration, which I don't have, of the 82 syllable name that they gave that thing.
Off the top of my head, Yeezy had a moment before Kanye self combusted not that long ago. But not great looking shoes. I mean, some of these, I think it's indefensible, like what they're going after. But this is the.
I just look at the amount of money being spent on this category on these collections and these brands, these brands that are profitable like a Hoka. This isn't like desperation stuff. Like, why aren't you investing in real innovation? I mean, what is a.
Of the outdoor products we talk about, which category is probably the least sustainable? It's gotta be Footwear, they're all disposable products. You wear them out faster than anything.
Why is not some of this money being pumped into sustainability initiatives and just to create more of this. This is the ultimate example for me of the disease of more.
Eoin Comerford
00:24:55.302 - 00:25:34.308
Yeah, I guess. But I mean, there's been innovation in footwear, I would argue more in footwear than in apparel.
You look at the footbed technologies that have changed the carbo carbon fiber inserts, the even, you know, changes from maximalist to minimalist to back to maximalist to zero drop all the stuff. Right. Yeah, you know, that's all been in the last, all those things I rattled off in the, in the last 15 years. So, yeah, I don't know.
I don't, I don't buy that there's no innovation in footwear. I do think though, we're in a world of just let's throw everything at the wall and see what, See what sticks.
Producer Dave
00:25:34.484 - 00:26:25.236
Well, yeah. Why are they doing this? I mean, look fugly chunky comfort. Think of the brands that have positioned themselves.
There's multiple billion dollar brands, Hoka being one of them. So why are they doing that? This is a massive market and this is clearly not a performance piece. So it's going right at the casualization.
So to me, this is actually more on brand than not because it does fit into the design DNA of what they do and the category. Now it's casual versus performance and it doesn't fit into that true innovation like you're talking about. But this totally fits.
I mean, we're having fun with it, but it is in their DNA to bring oversized comfort to a category that didn't necessarily honor it before. It still just looks. Speed tassels is my favorite, frankly. I'm just, I'm so about speed tassels.
Colin True
00:26:25.348 - 00:26:29.684
Can we just blame Crocs outright? Like they started this with a snowball rolling.
Producer Dave
00:26:29.812 - 00:26:31.040
Yeah, for sure.
Eoin Comerford
00:26:31.740 - 00:26:33.012
Just sense of Crocs.
Producer Dave
00:26:33.076 - 00:27:11.810
Did they get it rolling? Why not? Keane before that? Right. You know, why not? You know, go back in terms of they took the sports sandal from a.
More of a strap kind of thing of a Teva and a Chaco and they brought a bulbous toe, you know, bumper to it. So there goes to that. And Birkenstock before that. They big, chunky, you know, straps since monks were running around.
So it's like, you know, I just, I think they all, they all have a. They all kind of are related in some way. I think maybe what we're missing is the chunky comfort family tree. Right?
Which should have used to be a Walmart parking lot, but now it's really. I think we've got a place for that.
Colin True
00:27:12.270 - 00:27:26.134
I just look at, you know, the keen. You can. If you don't like it. It doesn't aesthetically I get it. But it was, you know, let's protect your toe. Let's make it. The siping was for the.
To be used on. It was a sailing shoe first before anything else.
Eoin Comerford
00:27:26.182 - 00:27:26.630
Right.
Colin True
00:27:26.750 - 00:27:38.610
Even crocs, I like to take shots at them. But listen, it was an affordable and it's comfort and it's a slipper that you can kind of wear around. I get it.
I wish it hadn't gone where it has go because I think that I hate looking at.
Producer Dave
00:27:38.650 - 00:27:40.050
But every brand has one now.
Colin True
00:27:40.090 - 00:27:40.354
Yes.
Producer Dave
00:27:40.402 - 00:27:42.962
Like every brand has a version of that.
Eoin Comerford
00:27:43.146 - 00:27:58.290
But I think that's the whole point though is you never know.
I feel like we're at a level where we don't know who our taste is and certainly, you know, a few eastern Gen X white guys, we don't know what the hell people are going to like. And you know, no, no, Owen, we.
Producer Dave
00:27:58.330 - 00:28:02.274
Don'T care what they like. That's Gen X white guys. We don't care.
Eoin Comerford
00:28:02.362 - 00:28:42.648
We just don't. Yes, we don't care.
But, but I think also there is a challenge sometimes from a management level within these companies to where I think unfortunately most of them are 50 something white guys that are at the management level and generally if they're smart enough to have made it to that level, they probably realize that they don't have the first IDEA what a 20something is going to like. And so when some cool hip designer with a nose ring and a face tash comes up with this design and says it's just the most amazing thing in the world.
World, they're just like, oh, absolutely, yes, we trust you. Yeah.
Colin True
00:28:42.744 - 00:29:02.936
I guess the reason why I get concerned about this is I just, you know, there's some news and this is the next thing I wanted to talk to you guys about today.
You know, just yesterday there was some news that came out about the surf industry and the surf industry feels like it's a little further ahead of where the outdoor industry is and I get concerned that this is maybe where the outdoor industry could go. So yesterday on shopping, surf, outdoor, AKA Ciso. I don't know if we're going to make that a thing or not. Ciso.
Eoin Comerford
00:29:02.968 - 00:29:03.496
Yeah, it's Ciso.
Colin True
00:29:03.528 - 00:29:48.860
Okay, Ciso. Ciso ran a story about how Liberated Brands has begun a liquidation sale.
Given that Authentic Brands has pulled their wholesale license, which is starting the process of closing upwards of 100 stores that are owned by Liberated Brands.
Because Authentic licenses those Liberated brands, such as Volcom, Quicksilver, Billabong, rvca, pulling that license effectively means that Liberated will have nothing to sell in their shops.
And if you talk to people who've been around the surf industry a long time, that sort of corporate overlording of that space has really squashed out a lot of the newer kind of up and coming brands and made it kind of of the vanillification of surf, if you will. What are some of the things, if we look at surf that we could see for our space, like, is this a cautionary tale for outdoor?
Eoin Comerford
00:29:49.760 - 00:31:04.368
Definitely. I mean, you do not want to be authentic branded as a category because ultimately, right. I mean, they've become a verb.
Well, because ultimately, right, you just speak. I mean, look at Spider, look at anything that's gone down this path, right? Because Authentic Brands is probably the most ironic name ever, right.
I mean, it's just the brands lose all authenticity and it's just about milking these what typically have become zombie brands shortly before this all goes down. Because Authentic Brands almost always acquires out of bankruptcy.
So, yeah, the brands lose authenticity and then Authentic Brands milks them for every piece of brand equity that's left in them. Just sort of like a vampire sucking the last of the blood out of a carcass. So it's just not. It's purely a monetary thing, Right.
I mean, the founders have long gone at this point, right. This is all about dollars and cents. And there also isn't really necessarily, it feels like a care for the wider industry.
I mean, this is not helping the surf industry. Right. It just is not.
Colin True
00:31:04.424 - 00:31:04.928
Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:31:05.064 - 00:31:09.700
So. But it's all about shareholders and dollars and cents.
Colin True
00:31:10.120 - 00:31:57.784
Well, and that's kind of when I look at this list of some of the brands we're talking about with the footwear stuff and these odd kind of product choices, they're all owned by these large, you know, publicly traded companies, you know, between whether it's Deckers or, you know, or Adidas or Wolverine.
And you know, then you look at the other news that came out this week, which is that regarding VF you know, who's kind of still pretty much the biggest player, owns a good portion of the open to buy in the outdoor market. And, you know, they, there was some news that came out on their earnings that, that maybe there's. They're returning to a healthier position.
But then they also said that it's probably going to still have some layoffs and some cuts still to come. So, you know, what are we seeing out of Denver?
And when you look at like what the results were for VF and how well does it maybe kind of play into this conversation, first thing I would.
Eoin Comerford
00:31:57.792 - 00:32:55.504
Say is it was good news, good results. Sales were up. So I think they have sort of found bottom from that perspective.
Even more importantly, though, their operating margins were up significantly year over year and their net debt was down significantly year over year.
Because I think we in the outdoor industry, we look at all the stuff that's going on with the board riders thing and we're like, oh, would never happen in the outdoor industry. And it's like, hey, guys, VF Corp. Was in pretty rough shape.
I mean, they didn't go through this whole restructuring over the last few years just because it sounded like a fun thing to do.
I mean, their debt level was through the roof to the point that actually their corporate bonds and this didn't get a lot of coverage, but their corporate bonds in November were downgraded to basically junk status. Okay. Which is not where you want to.
Colin True
00:32:55.512 - 00:32:57.984
Be as a. I missed the press release about that.
Eoin Comerford
00:32:58.072 - 00:33:32.454
Yeah, that wasn't blown up. And so that's a big deal, especially for a company that has quite a bit of debt. That just makes your borrowing costs that much more Right.
For any ongoing debt that you're going to place out there. So I think the results are actually really, really good news from that perspective, that they're really attacking some of the underlying challenges.
I mean, that's why they sold supreme, for example, this year. It wasn't because it wasn't a great fit with the overall thing, which I would argue it wasn't.
But I mean, I don't know why they bought supreme to begin with, but they bought them for two because they.
Colin True
00:33:32.462 - 00:33:35.638
Had fuck you money. That was their speed loafer.
Eoin Comerford
00:33:35.814 - 00:33:48.528
Well, I don't think they made $2.1 billion worth of speed loafers. But anyway, can you imagine when they do, though? I will really, really have egg on my face.
Colin True
00:33:48.584 - 00:33:50.096
You'll reevaluate your position.
Eoin Comerford
00:33:50.248 - 00:34:02.288
Well, they're going to break off Spilover into its own sub brand and it'll just be. Yeah, so supreme for 2.1 billion, which they then turn around and sold for 1.5 billion, I think. Or 1.6 billion.
Producer Dave
00:34:02.344 - 00:34:02.560
Right.
Colin True
00:34:02.600 - 00:34:03.984
So little haircut.
Eoin Comerford
00:34:04.032 - 00:35:00.950
Yeah. Not great. That's what this has all been about. I mean, they've been doing shedding assets or selling assets, lease buybacks. Whatever.
And so that's what, what this has been about. I think the interesting thing is that they said that they had saved 300 million based upon the restructuring they'd done to date.
And that was, I think we had, well, we had 240 odd people or layoffs announced last year and then the year before was about 500. So this is a chunk. And then the year before that was another 300. So we're over 1,000 people so far in terms of layoffs over the last few years.
That was 300 million. They said they're going for another 6 million. Okay. And at least half of that they said would be sga. So in other words about the same.
Again I think in terms of the layoffs are coming at North Face, just kind of reading between the lines.
Colin True
00:35:02.170 - 00:36:01.932
So to kind of just bring it then full circle. I mean the point I'm trying to make on some of this is the importance of the health of the industry of these bigger players.
But also the fact that, that the reason the industry exists is that was those founders visions and innovation. Right.
And the reason we have these bigger brands that kind of result in this, all of this conversation is the fact that somebody one day said hey, I can solve that problem and build something up and that it resonates.
And before you know it, you go from you know, 2009 little tiny 10 by 10 table at Eltra retailer Hoka to they have the fuck you money of like 30%, you know, at quarterly growth. And we're going to make the speed low for now.
So how do we kind of ensure though that the next generation of that is being refreshed, you know, and again like we. I'd love to talk to some retailers about this and I think that's maybe a little bit of an open call to anybody to reach out.
Myrockfightmail.com, we can maybe bring Wes back in as well.
But like that is seems like a crucial part of this, that if we want to avoid the worst parts of what's happening in the surf industry, could really make sure that that doesn't happen at some point.
Eoin Comerford
00:36:02.036 - 00:36:54.160
I think part of it is having a really strong specialty retail channel.
And because I think what we're seeing is, and you hear it when Wes Allen talks is with more and more of the big guys really leaning into D2C and discounting and other things or going into Costco like we talked about last time.
I think a lot of these retailers are realizing that their role as specialty retailers is to bring special brands to the Fore to bring newness in so that that customer that comes into your store in September and then comes back in November sees something new and different.
And it isn't all the same old stuff that you've always had, or worse yet, that they can get at their local rei, Dick's Sporting Goods, Sierra, Costco, you name it. Right?
Colin True
00:36:55.340 - 00:36:57.108
Not liberated anymore?
Eoin Comerford
00:36:57.284 - 00:37:28.730
No, not liberated. But ultimately, I think that's the key. And that's why I really.
I really pull for goa, for example, and what they're doing and hope for them to take an even more active role, quite frankly. I know that it's kind of herding cats. I get that.
But yeah, a specialty, a healthy and growing independent specialty angle or channel within outdoor, I think is critical to the overall industry.
Producer Dave
00:37:30.590 - 00:37:45.174
Again, I think putting in that perspective, what we're seeing today with this, with liberated and authentic and all of this is really the culmination. It's a phase two that really started with the demise of ASR. Right. The action sport retailer was exactly what.
Colin True
00:37:45.182 - 00:37:46.486
You talked about this before. That's right.
Producer Dave
00:37:46.558 - 00:38:32.640
The undermining of the specialty channel. And between then and Covid, whatever those intervening years, it was just a shedding of. Of independent specialty, whether it be surf, skate, snow.
Right. And so we have seen that. And now it's kind of.
It's almost like it weakens the foundation until you get to a point like this where it becomes consolidation and kind of every brand for themselves. And so where do those new brands bubble up from and then become and grow and become the next, next leader?
So it's just, it's an interesting, like I said, kind of tying back to where this began.
It was really, I think, to be the end of the beginning of the demise was the loss of ASR and a specialty focus for the quote, unquote, action sport industry.
Colin True
00:38:32.940 - 00:39:44.130
And this is why you can call me crazy for trying to connect these dots. Anybody listening? And I see footwear news articles about the HOKA Speed loafer, and they should cover that. It's not a judgment on footwear news.
It's just like the product itself and the ORA Primo and this Merrell Burton collaboration, it just sucks oxygen out. And these are just aren't going anywhere. I mean, the Yeezy is the exception because that was a fashion thing more than was anything else.
But again, we talked about the Merrell Burton one before. I mean, these are not viable products. I mean, maybe the HOKA speed loafer will be like, well, I'll be eating crow in this one.
And once that thing the next round comes in, we'll all have to be wearing them. As I eat my crow, I'm going to make all of you eat it with me.
But if that's the path to a healthy industry is new products, founders visions, specialty retail tastemakers that lead to these other brands having the opportunity to be acquired and built up like these other ones. Then it just, I see some of these products and I'm like, really? Do we have to go through this?
Do we, do I need another press release around this kind of weird looking shoe that yeah, there might be some young gen Z gen alpha person out there who thinks it's cool, but probably not going to be around in a year, you know, except out of Sierra.
Eoin Comerford
00:39:44.870 - 00:41:18.940
And I work with a lot of of early stage brands in the outdoor industry and it's hard to break in, it's hard to break into retail. The challenges in terms of trade shows have really, really hurt in terms of being able to get in front of retailers.
The rep system is really built for the incumbents and not to help with newness.
And so I think as an industry we need to figure out ways to raise up these new brands for the overall health of the industry, especially on the specialty side.
And that's something that I've been kind of trying to push on with some of the trade shows that are out there just work to special deal with one trade show for emerging brands. And the thing is retailers are looking for emerging brands. It's just where do you find them? They can't get into their local rep show. It's tough.
And so they've got to spend a bunch of money on meta to try to get out there and make a name and then hopefully get, you know, get picked up and get noticed by, by this, by the wholesale channel.
But it's, it's tough and then, you know, there's investment is tough because you know, you're not going to get a tech multiple on a, you know, on a new shoe or a new, you know, jacket or whatever. So it's, it's not easy being an outdoor founder, I'll tell you that.
But there are lots of really, really great founders out there who have awesome, authentic visions for how we can bring new, interesting, innovative, sustainable products to the market.
The Parting Shot Guy
00:41:21.800 - 00:41:24.180
It's time for a parting shot.
Colin True
00:41:25.640 - 00:44:03.390
All right, guys, so I'm rolling solo for the parting shot today and let's keep the attention on hoka.
All right, so after recording the conversation you just heard with Owen and Dave, there were two other HOKA items of note that I discovered one was an article in SGB that Wall street has reacted negatively to Decker's projections for hoka hoka, despite those projections being positive because there was an expectation that they would be higher. So is that a sign that Deckers is starting to sandbag a bit because the HOKA rocket ship is slowing down a little bit.
The other thing I heard about HOKA was an ad for the brand, a HOKA ad on the Bill Simmons podcast. If you're not familiar, Bill Simmons is a famous sports personality, probably has the biggest sports podcast in the world, I would assume.
And I found this hilarious one because Bill mispronounced the name of the brand, which longtime listeners of his podcast will know that's a common thing. But also it's interesting because it says to me that HOKA is looking for a way to connect with a broader audience to continue to grow.
I mean, it also could be another sign that HOKA simply does have fuck you money and is advertising on the biggest sports podcast in the world for the same reason Coca Cola still makes commercials like simply to reinforce their brand position.
But I'm going to put on my conspiracy theory hat and say that the Wall street concerns and the new ad strategy are related, that HOKA is recognizing it has either peaked or it's going to peak soon. And we'll see them start to come down the backside of the mountain as on continues to grow because it's a much more palatable design for the masses.
And Nike is going to return with a vengeance in the coming years, which we know that that's what they're planning to do. So I think that's what this is telling us. That's my parting shot, that HOKA maybe is starting to it has reached as high as it's going to go.
Maybe a little high. Maybe it gets a little higher before we start to see the HOKA decline begin.
And if I'm wrong and HOKA continues to be ascendant, no one remembers that January 2025 blip of wall street being concerned or Bill Simmons mispronouncing hoka's name. Well, that will be fun, too. But that's my parting shot. Let's see how it all ends up and we can wrap it up there.
Come back on Wednesday to hear Justin Hausman and I run through Outdoor Adventure headlines. Maybe we'll do a little gear and beer this week. We'll see. But check out the latest from the Rock Fight Podcast Network.
Open Container, hosted by Doug Schnitzbahn, available wherever you're listening to this podcast. Check them out. The Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight llc, our producer today. Producer David Carstadt. Art direction provided by Sarah Gensert.
For Owen Comerford, I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening. And here to take us out, it's Krista Makes. He's going to sing the rock Fight fight song song. We'll see you next time.
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Chris DeMakes
00:44:11.410 - 00:45:03.990
Welcome to the rock fight where we speak our truth slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree.
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