Today on The Rock Fight Colin is joined by Rock Fight Consigliere Eoin Comerford and Producer Dave to discuss several news stories that paint a picture about the long term health of the outdoor industry.
First they look at the recent earnings report by Newell (parent company of Marmot, Coleman, and Ex Officio, among others) which shows how the outdoor industry may be on the same path that was recently traveled by the surf industry. Eoin recaps how many iconic surf brands ended up being owned by Authentic Brands and how that past may serve as a cautionary tale for outdoor brands facing similar challenges. (02:55)
Next they talk about a recent report that Dick's Sporting Goods is quietly leaving outdoor behind as it closes most of their remaining Public Land and Moosejaw locations. They talk about how this move will impact the outdoor retail landscape. (18:29)
Then they dig into event news including the report that Europe's biggest summer show, OutDoor, is going on "hiatus" as well as the announcement of Outdoor Retailer's Industry Day. (29:15)
Lastly it's a combined Parting Shot as the hosts weigh in on the Outdoor Recreation Roundtable's endorsement of Trump Secretary of the Interior, Doug Burgum, as well as the organizations who co-signed that endorsement including the OIA, People For Bikes, and REI. They look at what missteps may have been made and what the focus should be going forward. (35:55)
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Episode Transcript
Colin True
00:00:00.240 - 00:01:41.264
All right, everyone, before we get started today, I need to tell you about our amazing teammates at Darby Communications.
If you run an outdoor, an endurance or an active lifestyle brand, there is no better PR or digital marketing belay partner or drinking buddy than Darby. They can help your business reach new heights and, you know, they might just keep you from falling on your ass.
I mean, since we started working with Darby, more and more people have been reaching out to us here at the Rock Flight because of that messaging. Look, guys, if they can help us, they can help anybody. Hit them up@darbycommunications.com do it today.
Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True.
It's Monday and today we'll be taking a look at some big picture news to come out of the outdoor industry in the past week.
But before we get to that, come back to the Rock Fight this Wednesday, guys, when outdoor journalist Justin Hausman and I will be taking a look at the latest headlines to come out of the outdoor adventure community this week. We'll likely be touching on layoffs at our national parks and what we expect to happen there.
Also, come back on Friday where I'm hoping I'll be able to tell you all about my time at this week's Outdoor Market Alliance Media event that happens this week in Denver. It's Monday, so you only have one more day to subscribe to Rock Fight's weekly newsletter.
News from the front head to Rock Fight Co click join the mailing list or just use the pop up that shows up there when you get to the website so you don't miss a thing from the Rock Fight universe.
And lastly, if you if you're new around here, please subscribe and join the Rock Fight by lobbing a little stone, little, little pebble at the follow button on whatever podcast app you are listening to us on. And also guys, please give us that five star rating and all right, let's start the show.
Chris DeMakes
00:01:41.352 - 00:01:45.420
Welcome to the Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Colin True
00:01:46.520 - 00:02:02.438
All right, well, joining producer Dave and myself like he does every week here on the Rock Fight is outdoor industry insider and our own consigliery, Owen Comerford. We're just going to get into it this week. No open from me. We're getting in with the three of us on a bunch of topics coming up. What is going on?
Owen, how we doing? Great.
Eoin Comerford
00:02:02.494 - 00:02:12.390
Great. Just had, I've had a lovely weekend. Did some, some kayaking, some Scuba, not scuba. Snorkeling. It's lovely down here in Key Largo.
Colin True
00:02:12.550 - 00:02:18.246
It's probably, I mean, there's no, like, park rangers to get in the way anymore, Right. There's just no one kind of stopping you from going wherever you want.
Eoin Comerford
00:02:18.318 - 00:02:19.302
Absolutely. No.
Colin True
00:02:19.406 - 00:02:20.862
No collecting fees.
Eoin Comerford
00:02:21.046 - 00:02:30.290
No, no. I mean, you know, you know, we're just picking bits of Carl off of the, the park. I mean, no one's there to, to, to, to say down to the trash cans.
Colin True
00:02:31.910 - 00:02:33.166
Dave, how are we doing?
Producer Dave
00:02:33.318 - 00:02:44.702
It's, it's 39 and raining right now here in Portland, Oregon. So we are not, we are not scuba diving. We are not snorkeling.
Colin True
00:02:44.766 - 00:02:45.726
You know, you could be.
Producer Dave
00:02:45.798 - 00:02:47.310
We could be. That's right. That's right.
Colin True
00:02:47.350 - 00:02:51.326
Why not? There's a river, is a big old river in Portland. You can just dive right in.
Producer Dave
00:02:51.398 - 00:02:52.130
Yep.
Colin True
00:02:54.360 - 00:04:09.864
All right, guys, well, let's get into it. We have a lot to talk about and today's opening shot. It's really the main topic of the entire episode.
We have one other thing afterward, but it's presented by Garage Grown Gear, which is your hub for ultralight gear.
Learn more by heading to garagegrowingear.com and like I said, we have three stories that came out last week that we want to talk about today that are honestly kind of connected in that they can teach us about the overall health of the outdoor industry. Owen, this past week you posted on LinkedIn about the poor earnings results in the outdoor division at Newell that they had in 2024.
Newell is the parent company of Marmot, Ex Officio and Coleman, among several others. And they reported as being down 21% with their outdoor brands last year.
And as we talked about off air last week, the three of us, it kind of goes back to the conversation we had a couple of weeks ago about the outdoor industry being in a similar weakened state that the surf industry once was before it effectively collapsed and became a shadow of itself, with organizations like Authentic Brands becoming the largest and primary player of a lot of once iconic brands. I mean, maybe they're still iconic, but they're the, they're the owner of a lot of different brands that really were super meaningful in that space.
So when you're looking at these results and you posted about it on LinkedIn, like I said, like, how does this info play into that theory, right. That the outdoor industry, there may be some risk here?
Eoin Comerford
00:04:09.952 - 00:05:05.430
So I think before we dive into that, just for the sake of our listeners that may not be familiar with the whole Authentic Brands saga, I'm going to Give hopefully a fairly quick rundown of kind of what happens. So if you go back to April of 19 authentic brands acquired Volcom, which you know, great brand in the sort of the surf and then snowspace.
So coming out of that, some ex Volcom executives set up Liberated Brands to run Volcom's global retail and wholesale operations under license from Authentic Brands. Okay, fast forward October 21st, Authentic Brands acquires Spider. You know, iconic some would say, maybe not Snow brand definitely are. Yeah, sure.
Liberty takes that one over too because they've now become sort of the de facto sport outdoor player for Authentic and did quite well. I mean they did over 400 million in 22 Liberty brands. That is okay.
Colin True
00:05:05.590 - 00:05:07.430
Liberty or Liberated, is there a difference?
Eoin Comerford
00:05:07.590 - 00:05:09.318
Sorry, Liberated, you're right.
Colin True
00:05:09.374 - 00:05:20.342
Okay, so liberated at 400 million. 21, this is a post pandemic. The main, the flagship brands, 22 being Vulcom and Spider are kind of their flagship brands at this time.
Eoin Comerford
00:05:20.446 - 00:07:22.694
Correct. Okay, so let's Fast forward to September 2023. Right. So barely 18 months ago, Authentic acquires board riders for 1.3 billion. Right.
And again Board Riders is this conglomerate that had all of these cool surf, some snow, but mainly surf brands. Billabong, Quicksilver, Ruka, Roxy, all these brands, Right.
And once again they turn to liber run them and they run the retail and the wholesale operations for a lot of these brands. Right.
So then last year they got hit with a post Covid slump combined with trying to ingest all these brands into Liberated and they cash flow becomes a huge issue and basically that led them to actually spin out the Spider business in November. There wasn't much talk about that. And then but more meaningfully, Authentic yanked the licensing agreements for most of those brands in December.
Right. So they yanked both the wholesale and the retail piece. So really this just put Liberated into a world of hurt.
All kinds of bank lending, loan issues in January, which finally then led to them declaring chapter 11. That's liberated. Declaring chapter 11 for the US operations in just earlier this month like a couple of weeks ago.
And they've started to liquidate all of their US retail locations, like 120 some retail locations for these brands that they were operating for Billabong, for Volcom and all these. Right.
And really it's just left the whole surf industry in a bit of disarray because you know you have A independent surf stores that actually bought up on these brands to get wholesale product into their stores for this, for the spring season that's not showing up and B, there's This incredibly promotional environment that's out there where, you know, where liberated is just basically flushing all of this inventory at 20, 30, 40, 50, whatever, off, right? That's just absolutely going to kill demand. So it's a tough spot for the industry right now.
Colin True
00:07:22.782 - 00:08:16.292
We could probably spend a lot of time just unpacking all everything. Everything you just said, right?
I mean, there's a lot of really interesting things in there and the brands involved and the strategy and what's next and all that kind of stuff. But just to kind of bring it back to the outdoor of it all. Because the surf and why we keep saying this may potentially be a cautionary tale.
Surf industry is about basically 10 years behind or ahead of the outdoor industry. Right. 1960s is kind of at. The surf industry really comes up to be a force. 70s is when the outdoor industry really starts.
Similar ebb and flow from growth and wholesale and retail and brands and whatnot leading us to today and including things like media. This is the second time in a month we've talked about this.
We covered the authentic Liberated deal as the bankruptcy happened a few weeks ago and alluded to it as a comp for what's happening in the outdoor industry. I guess, ultimately, why do we continue to harp on this?
Why do those similarities lead us to believe where we can end up being in the outdoor industry and maybe the not too distant future?
Eoin Comerford
00:08:16.476 - 00:08:34.452
I mean, for me, the parallels are very clear in terms of segments where it was founded based upon an authentic user group that spawned authentic founders, that built businesses that ultimately then grew way beyond the wildest dreams of the original founders.
Colin True
00:08:34.596 - 00:08:35.140
Right.
Eoin Comerford
00:08:35.260 - 00:08:39.428
And then led to consolidation, et cetera. And here is where we are today.
Colin True
00:08:39.564 - 00:09:04.100
It's funny that obviously why authentic brands called themselves authentic brands, right? It's just so easy to kind of like ever use that authentic it like three times in that sentence. It's like, yeah, that's what we lean on.
And it is also funny when you think about some of just the inherent in both industries of, well, we make stuff that's used to get outside and get up the mountain or get in the ocean or whatever. And it's like, no, actually like 98% of what we make is made to like wear to the mall on a Saturday with your kids.
Eoin Comerford
00:09:04.760 - 00:10:07.020
I mean, you look at Marmot as an example, right? Perfect example here. Founded in the early 70s by a few guys who were, you know, into, into mountaineering, into being outdoors. Right.
And that founder group then drove some real innovation in the outerwear category through the, through the 70s and into the 80s, right. I mean, they were the first brand to use Gore Tex on a jacket. Right. Who talks about that? About Mar.
First brand to have pit zips, first brand to have elasticized storm skirts. Right. I mean, these are real innovations that we just sort of take for granted today. That didn't exist before Marmot. Okay.
Velcro, sleeve closures, all this is all Marmot. Right. And all driven by that original founder group. But that was like the first 20 years of marmot.
What has happened in the intervening, you know, 30 years of marmot. Right. I mean, really. And so, you know, they were acquired by K2 in 2004, who was then acquired by Jarden. You remember the Jarden Group thing?
Colin True
00:10:07.060 - 00:10:07.484
Oh, yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:10:07.532 - 00:10:16.552
In 2007, who was then acquired by Newell in 2016, and who will ultimately probably be sold to authentic brands in 2025, 26.
Colin True
00:10:16.736 - 00:11:10.364
Yeah. This always comes back to a lot of that.
I mean, go back to our conversation last week on the top five gear brands, and we talked a lot, especially at Nemo at number one, about still being founder led. Right. It just feels like at some point, if you sell off your brand, which, by the way, I understand that's the goal for a lot of folks.
Sell the brand off, cash out. Hey, man, I did my work. I'm good now.
But at some point that authenticity will wane once you're sort of owned by a publicly traded entity or just some big corporate vcpe, whatever it is, Dave, take it. Take a minute and talk about the cyclical nature of this. Right?
We talked about this when we made that podcast layers a lot about the surf industry and its influence in the outdoor industry, especially as it pertained to media and then products. When you look at the, I don't know, kind of the sea of sameness we have in the outdoors, do you see similar markers over the last 30, 40 years?
And the surf side that kind of led us to this place? On the authentic side, Absolutely.
Producer Dave
00:11:10.412 - 00:14:36.282
I mean, I mean, sea of sameness. If you look at just the way the surf apparel industry has grown up, it's been lived on a sea of sameness.
It's on a boat out in the harbor, all looking the same. But they all position themselves as that authentic place. Right. They come from the culture, they promote the culture, they support the culture.
All of these things are required to kind of keep that going.
And this is, you know, where we run into some of the issues that we've seen with the surf industry as it gets consolidated and brought into a more of a corporate holding that support goes away. When that support goes away, it impacts the media ecosystem. That is the kind of consolidator of that industry, of that culture.
Where do they go to find who's doing what, what is cool, what is not, you know, kind of idea. It's the belonging.
It also affects the, you know, the IRL contests and promotions, the things that generate the content that goes in those media, right? The gathering places, whether it's the, you know, the US Open of surf or if it's the big wave challenges, things like that.
Those brands are vital for sporting.
And then there's the athletes that they then make possible to do that by giving them money to have a lifestyle that they can then go, and the photographers that then promote that and the content creators, right? All of this is required to keep a vertical sport up. Right? And without those elements, you're not going to see a future in it.
And that's what makes the authentic piece of just, let's just say the surf aspect or the action sport aspect, because skate is not immune from that. Right. They're tied to it.
Snowboard, in a little sense, has a little bit more autonomy because of its kind of relationship to ski and the resort aspect, but they're part of it as well. And you can see they've kind of settled into this niche where in the 90s and early 2000s, it was all growth, growth, growth, right? Big, big, big.
And the surf and skate and snow, they all saw themselves as this singular identity that was kind of the. In the late 80s into the 90s, you start to see these independent niche sports all realize that they have a shared psychographic consumer.
And so that their power was together as action sport is what, you know, that kind of nomenclature for it. But at least it created a retail story and consolidated these different groups. And there was definitely crossover, even though some of it not.
Not at all. I mean, core skaters were core skaters. They were not going to go snowboarding or surfing.
But you could definitely see the Venn diagrams all connected to these. And it created this bigger culture. And without door, what we see is that there's nothing to fill in the consolidation aspect, right.
As we go forward, I mean, we're talked about outside a lot. There's this hollowing out of our media space.
And if brands aren't going to advertise in the media to keep it, then there's going to be no voices to connect our culture.
And if there's no voices connecting our culture, they're not going to buy the brands, they're not going to visit the outdoor specialty, I mean, it just, it's, it's just kind of continues downhill from that.
But that I think is the big issue here, that this corporate consolidation is just one brick in this wall that is being built up that could one day kind of separate us from the core, the very small core adherence to a broader appreciation of the sports. And I mean, I hate to enter nature itself. I mean, let's face it, these are the best advertisement for nature.
And getting outside is the outdoor industry. Right.
Colin True
00:14:36.386 - 00:14:40.730
I never had you pegged as a Pink Floyd guy. You know, just another brick in the wall. That's you.
Producer Dave
00:14:40.850 - 00:14:44.074
Right? Right. I'm more of a final cut.
Eoin Comerford
00:14:44.242 - 00:14:44.950
But.
Colin True
00:14:47.250 - 00:15:25.288
Taking a more optimistic point of view, is outside a little bit more shielded from the worst outcome of this than maybe surf is? Because you look at, I don't know what's really happening in like surf independent media.
You know, in working with Justin for as long as I have, I feel like I would know at this point.
And at the same time, in the absence of your point of like a dominant media presence, Dave, like on an outside, we are getting the adventure journals, the mountain gazettes, the trail magazines. There does seem like we do still see some of these more founder led brands, the Livesons, the naras and stuff starting to crop up.
And again, it could all be happening on the surfside in equal measure and I'm just not familiar with it. Does it sort of feel like there's maybe a reason to be optimistic in the face of some of this or.
Producer Dave
00:15:25.424 - 00:15:36.804
No, that's just, it's actually, it'll always exist. Right. But you still need a broader, you need a broader pull and that's why we're always interested in rei. Right? I mean, you need that broad pull.
Eoin Comerford
00:15:36.932 - 00:16:00.260
Here's what I'd say is one of the challenges with the surf industry is that it is so location specific as to where you can actually participate in the activity that underlies that industry. Right, right. The great thing about the outdoor industry is the outdoors is pretty much everywhere.
I mean, you could argue that it isn't in the middle of Manhattan, but you also could argue that it is. But most people, I think Central park.
Colin True
00:16:00.300 - 00:16:02.228
People who would tell you that probably.
Eoin Comerford
00:16:02.324 - 00:16:30.340
Right.
But most people you can walk out your back door and you can at least, and hopefully you're relatively close to someplace where you can go mountain biking or trail running or whatever. And so it's way, way more accessible for people to be involved in the core activity that underlies our industry. So that's the good news. Right?
But if we're not doing a good job as an industry promoting those activities right then I think that's where we potentially are in danger.
Producer Dave
00:16:30.760 - 00:18:03.332
Yeah, I definitely agree.
I mean the access to be able to participate is just, it's no comparison when you take an isolated localized sport like surfing and then just access to outdoor. But what surf did in the latest or action sports did is that they sold more than just the activity they were selling.
And at that point the California lifestyle, this idea of the vibe, they were also individual sports that were different from the team stick and ball sports that had always gotten the kind of attention. So it created a new.
And then if you look at actually the way music grows up with that, you have grunge and you have hip hop coming up at the same time. Both very rebellious individual kind of expressions that go along with that. So that's a bigger movement.
But if you take what we have today, we're missing though the inspiration, like you said, it's promoting.
It's the aspiration, it's the let's inspire people to want to go outside, not just buy this item because it does this, that and the other thing, you know, Nike has kept sports alive because of their ability to create aspiration to their core adher as well as a larger case. American tennis back in the 80s and 90s wouldn't have been what it was if it wasn't for Nike pushing ads of their athletes on football games. Right.
Things like that. And that's just a very clear example.
But the brands need to step up and actually if they want to inspire people, they need to do the kind of communication that does that and not just put their product up for sale at a price.
Colin True
00:18:03.436 - 00:18:06.500
I think you just answered my last question was going to be like why does any of this really matter?
Eoin Comerford
00:18:06.540 - 00:18:06.692
Right.
Colin True
00:18:06.716 - 00:19:38.020
And how has the consumer consumers suffered in this? Because you can still get stuff, you can still go do the sports. You know, why does this truly matter? I think that's kind of what you're intimating.
And the other piece that obviously is, you know, there is a financial impact if this all starts to go sideways and we lose doors and retailers and whatnot. And it can take, everyone loves publishing the trillion dollar outdoor industry. It's like, well, there could be a world where that declines.
And so that actually plays into the next story that I want to talk to you guys about. Because according to retail dive last week, Dick's Sporting Goods has quietly taken steps to roll back their presence in outdoor.
Per that article, Dick's has reduced their public Lands locations from eight to three. They have shuttered their last three running Moose Jaw shops, as well as redirected Moose Jaw's website to the Public Lands website.
Now, we all know that Dix is more bullish on their House of Sport model, which I predicted. Want to make sure I tell everybody that. Again, I predicted that.
But at this point in time, losing outdoor retail doors, kind of what we were just talking about. I understand maybe we're talking more specialty in the previous conversation, but losing doors, it hurts our industry.
So, you know, oh, and I don't have the exact numbers of stores open versus stores that closed last year, but between what happened with Dick's and Eastern Mountain Sports in 2024, I would think it's safe to say that, you know, the only entities that probably expanded their footprint in a meaningful way was probably REI and Sierra. I know, like place like Gearhead Outfitters and folks like that. They opened some new shops and did some acquisitions.
But in terms of, like, the big guys with the larger presence, those are the two that really seem to make any movement in terms of expansion. What do we lose when there is attrition among total places we can shop for outdoor products?
Eoin Comerford
00:19:39.040 - 00:23:00.984
In terms of Public lands, obviously, I know a lot more than I could probably talk about around that subject. But what I would tell you is at a macro level, Public Lands is ultimately, it's a victim of bad timing in many ways. So it launched in 21 and into 22.
Right. So just as the COVID boom was starting to ebb and we went into the last two years that have, let's face it, not been fun for the industry.
So that was the first thing. The second thing that happened at the same time. So at the same time that that Dick started down the public lands thing, it launched House of Sport.
And both elements, right, were it was about Dick's trying to find its next growth format because it was somewhat saturated in terms of the markets that regular Dick's sporting goods stores were in. Right. And so what happened was Public Lands didn't get off to a great start.
House of Sport just knocked it out of the park, right out of the bat, just killing it. Right.
And so realistically then, in a world of limited investment dollars, Dick said, well, we're going to put all of our money behind House of Sport because it's rocking and rolling, and we're just going to kind of see what we can do with this public lands thing.
And ultimate, the public lands going from eight to three, or I think it was actually nine to three, it was really the only three stores that remain are the three standalone stores. So the six stores that are no longer Public Lands were all the ones that were co located next to a Dick's Sporting goods store.
And so now what Dick's is going to do is they're going to take at least. I think at least half of those are going to become House of Sport because, you know, it's 100, you know, together they're over 100,000 square feet.
And then I think the other three are going to become more like the Field House concept, which is. It's an upgraded Dick's Sporting Goods, but without the outdoor fields and all the extra stuff that you'd get with the House of Sport. But ultimately.
So what does this mean? I think it was interesting.
One of the big early successes of Public Lands was attracting really big, most of the really key specialty outdoor brands that Dick's themselves had not been able to attract for years. And the reason that they were able to do that was because those outdoor brands, they saw this as the potential to create a competitor for rei. Right?
The industry. The brands in the industry, quite frankly, hate the fact that our industry is structured the way it is.
They hate that REI has so much power and is so concentrated at the top of the industry and can basically dictate everything. I mean, REI basically dictates the promotional calendar of our industry. Right. It dictates so many other things.
And brands, quite frankly, don't love that.
And so what's happening is without a public lens, we're back to this really kind of clunky, bifurcated industry where we've got this one massive player at the top and then we've got this whole bunch of independent specialty retailers at the bottom. They're both together numbers, but it's. It's very difficult for a brand to. To kind of deal with those two elements in a single industry.
Producer Dave
00:23:01.152 - 00:23:18.264
What does that portend for the ability for a challenger to ever rise up? Is it possible, if Dick's can't make it happen with their kind of install base, to be able to kind of prop up another outdoor alternative?
Is one possible and they're not the.
Colin True
00:23:18.272 - 00:23:31.588
First to try, right? I mean, people forget. We talk about EMS a lot. EMS was west of the Mississippi. At one point they had shops in Boulder like there was.
They were to become the alternative to REI as well. And I mean, it's more complicated than. They just couldn't do that because it's.
Producer Dave
00:23:31.604 - 00:23:37.080
EMS that tracks though. Those of us on the west coast look at Boulder as eastern mountains. That's, that's cool.
Eoin Comerford
00:23:37.740 - 00:24:58.808
Yes, I think it is possible, you know, Dick's took a Dick's approach to it is what I would say, which maybe wasn't the right approach.
Whereas you look at, you mentioned Gearhead Outfitters, you look at what they're doing and yeah, there's something to be said for that approach which is to say, hey, listen, it's more of a kind of a classic retail roll up strategy, but it's taking that model and it's applying it to other players in key locations. So I think there is the potential for something like that to grow to a meaningful level.
The other piece that I would love to see is for Grassroots Outdoor alliance to actually step up and really occupy the space that it could occupy in terms of being a true go to market entity. So for example, having the ability for Grassroots Outdoors to be a thing, a consumer facing thing where the consumers could go to it.
And all of these retailers, let's say they share a single web presence or something similar to what I was mentioning earlier, an earlier podcast about Sport 2000 in Germany, where you can truly have the power of independent specialty retailer brought together to, to, to compete sort of head to head with rei.
Colin True
00:24:58.984 - 00:25:24.690
Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, and talking with Gabe Meyer who heads the goa, you know, they, they cop to this. Like the name GOA only means something.
Grassroots Outdoor Alliance. If you're in the industry, no one on the outside knows, right? That's just the outdoor shop. Like, oh, we're in the goa, no one cares.
So that would be an opportunity though, right?
To kind of say like make GOA branded or endorsed a thing, you know, so that people understand like, oh, this is, this is something that we need to get behind.
Eoin Comerford
00:25:24.840 - 00:25:34.926
I think that is a, like there could be a loyalty, loyalty program aspect to it where you've got shared loyalty. I mean, trust me, I understand all the reasons why it won't happen.
Colin True
00:25:34.998 - 00:25:36.798
Oh, it says easy does hard.
Eoin Comerford
00:25:36.854 - 00:25:44.846
Right, Exactly. It will probably never happen, but it would be incredible what it could do for our industry if it could happen.
Colin True
00:25:44.998 - 00:26:11.590
Well, and Gearhead Outfitters though, they're a GOA member and you know, I think we mentioned them the second I mentioned, then you mentioned them and they are up TO I think 18 doors now. I mean, you know, and if you talk to Ted, who owns, who's the owner of, of Gearhead, he's passionate about specialty retail.
He's not looking to become the next rei. He's interested in Gearhead being specialty driven. Right. That experience that we all have.
When you walk into a shop and go like, oh, yeah, I'm in my place. Right. That we all love.
Eoin Comerford
00:26:11.710 - 00:26:56.686
This is something that we at Moose Jaw were looking to do, quite frankly, back in the mid teens, just because we saw the landscape.
We saw the fact that quite frankly, there's a whole bunch of folks that own independent specialty retailer stores that really don't have a strategy for what comes next. They're in their 60s, they're in their 70s. It's been a great living, but they'd like to retire. But what's the strategy? Who's going to buy that store?
And we felt like that we could bring the moosejaw brand presence, the Moose Jaw website aspect to it, but. But take on that local store mantle as well. Unfortunately, we just didn't have the investors lined up to make that happen.
Producer Dave
00:26:56.838 - 00:27:36.888
It's interesting you say that because been reading too about Barnes and Noble has righted their ship based on exactly that model, going back the other direction from the mono experience to try to give the local stores more independence from their merchandising to their purchasing to their decorations. Right. Which is really kind of in line with what you're talking about. So maybe that is the future.
Though I do think that maybe Dix just has a branding problem with public lands. With the way the climate is today. Maybe something called private lands would be a little more applicable. Yeah. Loyalty oath programs. Right.
And it restricted usage.
Eoin Comerford
00:27:37.064 - 00:27:37.592
Right.
Colin True
00:27:37.696 - 00:27:43.838
All right, let's take a quick break. And we come back. We're going to talk about the last story that came out last week that applies to what we're. We're talking about here.
We'll be right back.
Eoin Comerford
00:27:43.944 - 00:27:44.630
Foreign.
Colin True
00:27:46.570 - 00:28:02.322
You'Re listening to Rock Fight Radio. Oh, you got DJCT back with you spinning the hits. And it's that time because we have another new song from that hit machine, Fitz.
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FITS!
00:28:02.386 - 00:29:12.432
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Colin True
00:29:12.576 - 00:29:46.484
And now back to the show.
All right, coming back, the last piece that we want to talk about that came out this past week are a couple of announcements that came out on the event side of things. Two announcements. The first being that summer ISPO has been canceled, so there will be no large scale European industry gathering this year.
And the second, that Outdoor Retailer is launching a industry day that will include several educational tracks and will take place the day before Outdoor Retailer is set to kick off. Dave, you and I had plenty of memories from the trade show previously known as Friedrichshafen. Any thoughts on its demise?
Producer Dave
00:29:46.612 - 00:29:51.908
Well, before we forget any of that, I think it's actually not. I don't think it's Ispo summer. I think it's called outdoor.
Eoin Comerford
00:29:52.004 - 00:29:52.372
Correct.
Colin True
00:29:52.436 - 00:29:52.996
It is outdoor.
Producer Dave
00:29:53.028 - 00:29:54.388
Ispo runs it, so.
Colin True
00:29:54.444 - 00:29:58.788
Right. Sorry, I don't know if you want. It is technically outdoor. It is also summer Ispo though. Right.
Producer Dave
00:29:58.844 - 00:30:02.228
I was actually giving you the option. Do you want to re record that intro?
Colin True
00:30:02.324 - 00:30:04.820
Oh, do you want me to? This is funnier if you call me out.
Producer Dave
00:30:04.860 - 00:30:14.018
Actually, I was trying not to make you sound. We're leaving it in Smrt. Smart.
Colin True
00:30:14.194 - 00:30:17.410
It is outdoor with a capital D. That's right.
Producer Dave
00:30:17.450 - 00:30:17.858
That's right.
Eoin Comerford
00:30:17.914 - 00:30:19.030
Okay. Yes.
Colin True
00:30:19.850 - 00:30:20.830
There you go.
Producer Dave
00:30:21.690 - 00:30:23.590
The D is for Deutschland.
Colin True
00:30:25.210 - 00:30:31.266
What do you think? What do you think about old Friedrichshafen, current outdoor, AKA Summerispo going away?
Producer Dave
00:30:31.338 - 00:30:50.380
Look, they're not immune from the same forces that we're dealing with with here. I mean, Friedrich Shaen was awesome as a core event, bringing up, you know, kind of specialty out.
Friedrich Shaffen's, what, a couple hours from Munich. So it was on the lake, kind of away from the city. It really had a great, you know, kind of sequestered kind of feel to it.
Colin True
00:30:50.680 - 00:30:52.820
Lots of hotels with no air conditioning.
Producer Dave
00:30:53.400 - 00:31:15.444
That's right. That's right. But yeah, I don't know. I, I kind of had kind of came to my piece when they announced its closure a few years ago.
And ISPO always made more sense if they were going to do that in Munich, just from an accessibility perspective and just kind of consolidation piece.
Colin True
00:31:15.572 - 00:31:43.872
Oh, and we talked about ISPO when it happened this past fall and you were over there and you noted just how much smaller it was and Even when outdoor was in Friedrichshafen, it's still a much bigger show than a lot of ones we have here in the States. And I must imagine the summer versions of it when it moved to Munich was similar.
And Ispo obviously in the winter was always a massive show and it was significantly smaller as you noted when you were on the show here. Talk about it last fall. What are your predictions for how events play out in the next couple of years based on this news?
Eoin Comerford
00:31:43.976 - 00:32:15.472
I really see the pausing as they're calling it of Ispo Outdoor. It's like the final armistice in the outdoor brand trade show arms race, right. That really sort of typified the 20 teens.
Because you know what happened was these outdoor brands, the booths just kept getting bigger and bigger and taller and taller and multi level, right? And it was like, I'm bigger than you, you know, and North Face versus Columbia versus whatever.
Colin True
00:32:15.616 - 00:32:21.104
And not even just like Nerona. I mean, I know Nerona's bigger over there, but like everybody had a big booth.
Eoin Comerford
00:32:21.232 - 00:34:14.216
It was crazy. And they were brands were spelling spending millions of dollars on these booths and the shows and all the people and all right.
And so ultimately somebody, I think it was maybe Arcarix was the first one to go, what the hell are we doing here? And they got out of it and then didn't really miss it. I was like, oh, okay, that was cool. We saved a whole bunch of money.
And so like if that was or you know, the European version was twice that. I mean that was just, you know, huge booths, crazy everywhere. So everybody kind of pulled back.
But what people then really missed was the ability to come together to share ideas, to talk about what drives our industry. So ultimately what the industry is looking for today is more gathering and less trade show. I mean that's the balance, right? Absolutely.
Actually, one of the good things that's come out of this is both outdoor retailer and now switch back. They have said, hey, the maximum booth size you can have is a 20 by 20. That's it. You can't have these mega booths. You can't do that.
And it's kind of like a salary cap in professional sports. It's basically saving the brands from themselves to where they don't go wild ass crazy and spend on these things. But it makes much more sense.
So it brings it back to be affordable.
It also actually I think in the future is going to help emerging brands because an emerging brand can get a 10 by 10 booth and not be overshadowed by this behemoth next to them. So I think that's great and that's good for the future of trade shows. But ultimately we have to make sure that the gathering piece works.
And so I do like what or is doing with their industry day. I think it's the right move for them from that perspective.
Colin True
00:34:14.328 - 00:34:45.080
Does the industry day move the needle for them? I mean, it's kind of tough times, I feel like, for our friends in Salt Lake City here. Sean Smith's been on the pod a lot.
Hopefully we'll have him on again soon.
And, you know, I don't want to kick any dirt, but it's like it's putting, you're putting on the the industry day now will be the first day of exhibition at Switchback.
So if you're going to Switchback, and as probably you heard on the ads here on the Rock Fight, I mean, there's a lot of good brands that are big brands that are going to be going to Switchback, you know, does, does you feel like this moves the needle for them?
Eoin Comerford
00:34:45.940 - 00:35:07.709
I don't know. It's going to be tough given the timing, quite frankly.
But, you know, I don't think we should be in the business here of prematurely crowning or killing a trade show. Right. I mean, let's see how it all plays out in June. Let them fight it out.
But you know, in the immortal words of Highlander, I think ultimately there can be only one.
Colin True
00:35:08.569 - 00:35:10.513
That's true. Who said it first?
Producer Dave
00:35:10.601 - 00:35:13.217
A solid, solid reference there. Thank you, Kurgan.
Colin True
00:35:13.313 - 00:35:19.601
Who said it first? There's somebody said it first in that movie. Was it the Kurgan? I can't remember. Great movie, though.
Kind of holds up, actually, if you go back and watch it.
Eoin Comerford
00:35:19.625 - 00:35:20.349
It does.
Colin True
00:35:21.580 - 00:37:10.730
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And last thing today, guys, we're into kind of a combined parting shot because we'd be remiss if we didn't touch on what's been happening in the early days of the Trump administration as it applies to the outdoor industry.
This week, there was growing pressure to hold account organizations whose name was on a pre inauguration endorsement of Trump's Secretary of the Interior, Doug Burgum.
That endorsement was put out by the Outdoor Recreation Roundtable on January 14th and included organizations that had signed that letter signed by People for Bikes, the Outdoor Industry association, and rei.
Since the inauguration, there has been an increase in scrutiny given Burgum's position, according to the article by, according to an article by Reuters, to execute Trump's energy plan.
And then, most publicly this past week, REI launched a petition to, quote, call on Secretary Doug Burgum to rescind the sweeping orders undermining the public lands enjoyed by millions of Americans each year.
Blowback came swiftly, as often happens with rei, with many calling out REI for signing the endorsement to then only a month later, put up this petition. Kind of a mess, like everything in the early days of this administration. But, oh, and you know, let's start with you.
You know, what are your thoughts on just sort of the whole situation here?
Eoin Comerford
00:37:11.320 - 00:38:58.136
I mean, I do think REI signing of the endorsement was a misstep, especially with how sickeningly fawning the ORR letter was. I mean, just read it anyway.
But ultimately, I think the reason that REI signed up was because one of their big pushes from a policy perspective, from their government affairs group, was the founding of outdoor recreation offices, both at the state and at the national level. And so, you know, Doug did that for North Dakota, so he seemed like a decent pick from that perspective. Right.
And then I'm a big believer in looking for the silver lining in everything in life. Right?
And I think the silver lining here is that if REI hadn't signed on that and hadn't received all the blowblacks back that it did, they probably wouldn't have come out quite as forcefully as they have with this opposition to, you know, the whole drill baby, drill policies that we're hearing now out of the Department of the Interior. Right? And so, you know, it's like, at least REI is saying something. Whereas, like, where are the other brands? Where's Patagonia? Where's North Face?
Where is every other, excuse me, fucking brand that used Bears Ears as a convenient excuse not to go back to Salt Lake City? You know, where are all the brands that posted black squares after George Floyd was murdered? Where are they?
So either either all of that was performative bullshit or they're scared chicken shit and they don't want to stick their head out of the sand. I mean, I just don't know.
Colin True
00:38:58.208 - 00:38:59.540
Dave, what do you got on this?
Producer Dave
00:39:01.360 - 00:39:03.864
That Was well said. I don't know what else to say there.
Colin True
00:39:03.952 - 00:39:04.968
All right, we'll see you next week.
Producer Dave
00:39:05.024 - 00:40:06.312
Right, Right. I think a couple things. Number one, you're absolutely right. The tone of the letter is the issue and it was unnecessarily kind of over the top.
And that's where REI got bit. OAI got bit by that too. I understand they have to balance these kind of needs. You know, they want to have a seat at the table.
They don't want to be ostracized. There is fear. So I get trying to balance it. But that letter was just weird in the way it was put Dear Leader kind of kind of tone to it.
The other thing too is rei, again, a bad situation. They just everything they can to make it worse. They didn't put up the poll. They actually turned off comments to that. So it's like how.
Oh, like that was just such a self inflicted wound there of like, oh, kind of. What are we doing? Like everyone was on notice there. So that was just dumb. That was dumb. Again, bad situation. They're in a tough spot.
But my goodness, goodness gracious, but I think you're spot on. Where is everybody else?
Colin True
00:40:06.456 - 00:41:10.210
Come on. I think this is. And I commented on a couple of threads last week on LinkedIn and kind of reflecting on it.
What everyone listening to this needs to realize, and you can be mad at the oaa, you can be mad at people for bikes and REI and all this stuff is this is what this administration is doing, is that everything is a distraction. It's all about causing chaos and sowing uncertainty within the groups who would oppose what they want to do.
These organizations are definitely in a rock and a hard place. It should absolutely been a little more tempered. You guys are both right on that.
At the same time, if they don't do the things that historically they have done. Dave, to your point, they don't get a seat at the table. I think if you. How about the OAA specifically? Oh, and you nailed it. Where are the brands?
I mean, the OA represents brands. Right? Right. Their members are the brands.
So you know, why are they going to stick their neck out at this point if their brands aren't telling them to? Right. So it's kind of like if you start to see. See the brand speak up, you'll probably see other people speak up as well. I think the.
For me, the takeaway here is it's a. That letter was gonna happen in some form no matter what.
Eoin Comerford
00:41:10.510 - 00:41:31.042
And yeah, he probably was the best of a bad lot, quite frankly. Because there wasn't gonna be. Nobody was gonna get the Trump nomination that wasn't going to support the. Drill, baby, drill, right.
I mean, and all that stuff was already written and ready to go. It's not like Doug got in there and in a couple of weeks came up with this brilliant idea. No, no, that stuff has been done.
Colin True
00:41:31.146 - 00:41:55.298
He passed through months, he passed through committee and the Senate with flying. I mean, he.
Actually, I read somewhere that he had apparently one of the highest vote totals for approval of any Secretary of the Interior, maybe in history or in recent history, at least. So it wasn't like all the Dems were lining against him and trying to block this. So again, you put that against. And again, under the COVID of.
He could have toned down the tenor.
Producer Dave
00:41:55.394 - 00:42:05.870
Under the COVID of it. The vote they just took was for Matt Gaetz. So it's not like you' comparing that. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.
Eoin Comerford
00:42:05.950 - 00:42:22.014
But that, that all talks to. But that all talks to this administration resetting what is normal. Right to the point where.
Right where it's like, okay, here's batshit crazy over here. So now we're just gonna give mildly crazy. Like, ah, yeah, it sounds great. Let's do that.
Producer Dave
00:42:22.102 - 00:42:22.990
Just batshit.
Colin True
00:42:23.070 - 00:42:46.760
Right, right, right. We just took the. Which is batshit. No, and I think that's it. So I think the people who are get up in arms. You want to call people account, I get it.
But really the fight is not this ultimately, I think in the next four years, the fight is kind of like, how do we protect the public lands? How do we make sure that we're holding people account when we can? And I think that should be the takeaway.
And I'd like to see that narrative change a little bit more that way. It's a tough situation no matter how you cut it.
Eoin Comerford
00:42:46.800 - 00:42:52.472
Right. Don't attack the people that are actually trying to help attack the people that are attacking what you love.
Colin True
00:42:52.576 - 00:42:53.752
Exactly, right, exactly.
Eoin Comerford
00:42:53.816 - 00:43:21.062
And yes, okay, hold people to. To hold people to a high standard.
But by the same token, infighting amongst the people that are trying to do the right things is exactly what the folks that are trying to come after public lands love. It's like, yeah, you beat each other up totally and call each other out for not passing some purity tests. But guess what?
The real fight is outside the industry. It shouldn't be inside the industry.
Colin True
00:43:21.246 - 00:44:21.430
And this is a long time honored tradition of this infighting in the outdoor industry. We talk about it all the time, right? About the snowmobile versus snow snow skiers and RVers versus mountain bikers.
And like all it's just, it's constant. And this is the time we have to put that aside and act in the best interest of the outdoors and public lands. That's just where we are.
All right, guys, we can wrap it up there.
Come back on this Wednesday to hear Justin Hausman and I run through some outdoor adventure headlines and then we'll come back again on Friday to talk about the Outdoor Market Alliance Media Week, Media Week, media event, whatever they call it. Also check out the latest on the Rock Fight podcast network, Open Container. Doug Schnitzbahn hosts Open Container.
You can find that podcast right where you found this podcast. The Rock Fight's a production of Rock Fight llc. Our producer today, producer David Karstad.
Art direction provided by Sarah, the most popular person on LinkedIn. Gensert for Owen Comerford. I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening. And here to take us out is our guy, Chris Demaics with the Rock Fight Fight song song.
We'll see you next time. Rock fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:44:29.450 - 00:45:22.030
Welcome to the Rock Fight. Where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree.
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