Today on THE ROCK FIGHT (an outdoor podcast that aims for the head) Colin opens the show reflecting on the latest earnings report from Crocs that details how their $2.5 billion investment, HeyDude, has not been faring too well.
Then he and producer Dave explore how HeyDude's limited demographic and marketing could end up making the whole thing a risky investment for Crocs.
They then comment on a listener email that identified prAna as another possible outdoor industry zombie brand and ponder why Columbia is doing things differently with them when compared to what Mountain Hardwear is up to.
Finally they talk about Vans entry into the technical hiking market with their new shoe that is based on the classic Old Skool.
Lastly they wrap things up with their Parting Shots!
Chapters:
01:49 - Will HeyDude end up being worth the $2.5 Billion it was bought for?
21:37 - Prana: The Zombie Brand of the Outdoor Industry
30:24 - Vans Enters the Hiking Shoe Market
38:15 - The Parting Shot
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Episode Transcript
Colin
00:00:00.400 - 00:01:44.159
Halloween may be over, but there are plenty of scary stories out there about some of our industry's longest tenured brands. But hey, retail buyers, do we have a feel good story for you. Shake off those October cobwebs with Royal Robins. Yeah, that's right, Royal Robins.
If you're like, really? Yeah, really.
Royal Robins is one of the true OGs of outdoor brands, part of that early group of California climbers who kind of kicked off the modern era right alongside Tompkins and Chouinard of the North Face in Patagonia. So if anyone can step up, they can. I spoke a bit with Royals brand president Eric Burbank recently and they're making moves and planning routes.
They're focused on natural fibers, tight merchandising, and a range that knows what it stands for. All stuff that Royal himself would be down with too, I bet.
I'm hoping to have Eric on the Rock Fight soon so we can dig more into the rise of Royal and I will say I've been wearing one of their new wool pieces. It's pretty damn good, guys.
So you can meet the Royal Robins team in Kansas City at Goa Connect November 11th to the 14th, stop by their booth, say hi, maybe throw a few rocks. If you do, just tell them that Colin sent you. Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree.
This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True.
It's Monday and I'm here with producer Dave and we're going to talk all about a few things that came out of the outdoor industry over the past week, including listener feedback to last week's conversation about zombie brands. But before we get to that, I want to ask you if you're new around here, we'd love for you to subscribe.
Join the Rock Fight by lobbing a little old stone at the follow button on whatever PODC app you are listening to us on and give us a five star rating. And be sure to check out our other podcast on the Rock Fight Podcast Network that's called Gear and Beer.
You can find that on the app you're using right now. So let's start the show.
Chris DeMakes
00:01:44.247 - 00:01:48.275
Welcome to the Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight.
Colin
00:01:49.495 - 00:03:02.723
Okay, so to start my open today, I just want to talk for a minute about something that's not a secret and that is that I am not a fan of Crocs.
Just last week on this very program, with producer Dave as my witness, my parting shot was centered on the horrific news that Crocs has partnered with someone to create Crocs for pets. And listen, I'm an OG on this crusade, okay?
I've been championing a return to footwear normalcy since I saw my first pair of Crocs in 2007 after finally getting on Facebook, something that the jury is probably still out on if that was a good decision. But I'm pretty sure the first page I ever joined, and this is true, by the way, was the. I don't care how comfortable Crocs are.
They make you look like a dumbass group. That's a real group. You can look them up. But $4 billion just. It can't be wrong, can it?
I mean, Crocs has built a footwear empire larger than most brands could ever imagine achieving. And they've done it with some blown foam that people like because it feels squishy. I may not like Crocs, but I will definitely tip my hat to them.
Now, just so you know, today's episode is not about Crocs specifically. It's actually about something that Crocs own, which is hey Dude. And no, I'm not calling over to producer Dave right now. That's the name of the brand.
Producer Dave
00:03:02.859 - 00:03:03.611
Hey, Colin.
Colin
00:03:03.723 - 00:03:05.375
Thanks, buddy. Hey, dude.
Producer Dave
00:03:05.955 - 00:03:06.975
Hey, Colin.
Colin
00:03:08.075 - 00:03:09.095
Hey, dude.
Producer Dave
00:03:09.555 - 00:03:10.535
Hey, Colin.
Colin
00:03:10.915 - 00:03:57.787
So Crocs owns hey dude. Which is a. Every time. That's the best.
Hey dude is a footwear brand with Italian origins that started in 2008 with the intent to make shoes that were lightweight, comfortable and stylish. That's subjective. But they were also affordable. Their uppers are a breathable fabric.
There's a foam insert, sort of midsole, and then a flexible outsole that can be folded in half with the whole thing being a machine washable set of footwear. Now, hey Dude's story is a success from the start.
After they launched, they expanded to the US in 2009, and by October of 2011, they had already sold more than a million pairs of shoes. And then ten years later, Crocs acquired them for two and a half billion dollars. Now, last week, sgb.
Producer Dave
00:03:57.851 - 00:03:58.955
How much was that, Colin?
Colin
00:03:59.075 - 00:09:49.325
Oh, I'm coming back to that there, Dave. But it was. I'll say it again, I was going to say it a few more times on this podcast. 2.5 billion.
So last week, SGB reported on Crocs quarterly earnings, which included how things are going at hey Dude. Which frankly, is not too good. Ever since being acquired, the brand hasn't met expectations. And we can talk about that in a minute.
But what I do want to do. Like I just told Dave was back up for a second because it was acquired by Crocs for two and a half billion dollars. Two and a half billion.
Now, the first time I ever heard of hey dude was when Crocs acquired them. And all I've really thought about them since is that the product looks a lot like Sanuk and that the name of the brand is, let's say, not great.
Now, at the time they were acquired in 2021, hey dude sales were 570 million bucks, which by the way, is pretty impressive.
And I'm not saying that I'm the end all be all when it comes to brands in the outdoors and active space, but I was definitely sur that I had somehow missed that a brand already worth half a billion was getting acquired for two and a half billion by another brand that is a staple of many outdoor shops. And to be honest, it wasn't until this past week that I started learning more about hey Dude. And it was because of that recent earnings report.
So despite its Italian origins, and at least as it pertains here in the us it seems that hey dude has grown thanks to the SEC Bro crowd. Which explains why I didn't know much about them because that's not really my scene.
But the interesting thing about hey dude to me, and the reason why it's relevant to talk about this on this podcast, is because they possibly could become a pretty big misstep for Crocs.
And looking at what the brand is, its product offering, the upside of it, it's conceivable that hey dude really overachieved from the get go and could end up becoming a pretty big weight around Croc's neck if they can't get it figured out.
Because I don't know where the growth would come from for hey dude to eventually justify the again and a half billion dollars that Crocs laid out for them. Now hey dude has become a pretty divisive topic in the footwear and fashion community.
Like I said, the brand's appeal is largely to young white males who live in rural areas. I mean, they're the ultimate male 18 to 27 year old shoe.
It's the kind of shoe that at that age you would wear to job interviews because you were either too proud or too poor to wear a pair of like oxfords. And you're too dumb to know that you should probably, if you don't own a pair of oxfords, just wear a pair of nice sneakers instead.
So you end up wearing this sort of in between dingleberry of a shoe that by the time you turn 30, you'll likely never wear again. And a big challenge they face is that the appeal of the brand, at least for right now, is for that very specific consumer.
Hey dude has stated they want to be a brand for young people in general and that they want to attract more women to their brand, Even going so far as to sign up Sydney Sweeney as their quote, director of Dude. I think Jeff Bridges may have a should take some issue with that.
But when you look at the Sydney Sweeney page of the hey dude website, this is how the director of dude is described. And this is a quote. They're basically saying this is something that Sydney said, maybe she did, I don't know.
But the quote goes, being the director of dude is truly embracing the power of being a woman and able to do absolutely anything I set my mind to. And showing others that you can do anything too, if you just want to try it out.
I tried wakesurfing for the first time a couple of weeks ago and it was super fun. I also like to build tree houses or go rock climbing. End quote. I mean, what the fuck is that? I mean, that's really on their website.
It's like, notably it's on their website. I mean, if you. Have you.
Have you ever heard a more rambling beauty pageant level answer as something to quote that is meant to be a celebrity endorsement that is a key part of your attempt to engage with young women and expand your customer base? I mean, call it a small sample size, but I sent the heydude website to my daughter, who's a college freshman, the exact demo.
Hey dude is looking to court and asked her what she thought about the products and the brand. And her response was, it kind of looks like the website I'd find on Instagram or TikTok. The shoes are ugly. I don't know who they are.
I don't think they're interesting because they aren't that appealing. And there's really no page that describes why they're better or what their main goal is, Just that it's lightweight footwear.
And I could find lightweight footwear that is better looking. And then I said, well, what if I told you that Sydney Sweeney was brought on to promote and endorse them?
To which she replied, that'd be crazy and I wouldn't believe you. So, guys, two and a half billion, right? Hoka just crossed $2 billion. Crocs paid more than HOKA is worth for hey Dude.
Now look, as I wrap up my Open here. This is truly where things take a turn towards the outdoors.
Because as much as it pains me to admit it and give Crocs any sort of credit for anything, the reason why Crocs made it at all was the functionality of the footwear. Yeah, they became a $4 billion juggernaut based on comfort and squishiness.
But whenever I throw a rock at Crocs, some paddler or backpacker or climber or dirtbag van lifer pops their head up to tell me that Crocs is undefeated when it comes to camp shoes.
Or that they float so you won't lose them while you're out on the water, or that they're perfect in between sessions at the Crag, et cetera, et cetera. So there's still an innovation and function story with Crocs, even if they are the fucking worst.
So two things makes me worried for four Crocs when it comes to hey Dude. Number one, what's their story beyond being the perfect shoe for College Aid chads?
And secondly is the one thing that I probably haven't talked about enough here and is how did Crocs miss the name of the brand and that it's fucking hey Dude.
If you wanted a casual footwear line to add to the Crocs that didn't cost two and a half billion dollars, you probably could have bought simple or maybe hit up Deckers to buy Scenic, which, by the way, they just sold because of all the things not to like about hey dude. The name is definitely, I think, the worst of it. I don't know much, but I do know that.
So let's bring in Rock Fight's headmaster of creative and branding, producer Dave. Dave, what do you think about hey Dude?
Producer Dave
00:09:51.265 - 00:09:54.005
Oh, Colin. What is there to say?
Colin
00:09:54.465 - 00:09:56.505
Apparently a lot. That was long, right?
Producer Dave
00:09:56.625 - 00:10:15.859
That. Well, look, I too have been late to the hey dude party for sure. Definitely been a party. Oh, it is a party, right?
Not to be confused with the 1990 Nickelodeon sitcom Hey Dude. By the way, about the kids at the Bar None Dude Ranch. I wonder if that was a copyright.
Colin
00:10:15.907 - 00:10:20.155
Problem when they launched. You think the Nickelodeon's like, oh, hold on there a second, pal.
Producer Dave
00:10:20.315 - 00:10:27.571
Or somebody in the legal department forgot to file for Class 24 and missed their footwear.
Colin
00:10:27.643 - 00:10:28.455
Could be.
Producer Dave
00:10:29.235 - 00:10:57.955
No, look. Hey Dude. Okay, so where do I start here Again, they do know who they are.
From a customer perspective, it does seem like in terms of this foundation of a comfort footwear, look, they're light, they're comfortable. I mean, frankly, it's probably the biggest Brand innovation to hit the tailgate scene at the Georgia Florida football game since pre made cocktails.
So I can just see those really going together.
Colin
00:10:58.035 - 00:11:00.629
You've been around some key dudes and some RDCs.
Producer Dave
00:11:00.827 - 00:11:08.713
That's right, right. Because nothing says tailgate like pre made mojito and hey dudes, I got my baggy jeans on.
Colin
00:11:08.809 - 00:11:09.329
I got.
Producer Dave
00:11:09.417 - 00:12:46.459
Right, right. But look, you know, it's got all those pieces to it for sure. You know, they're light. Like I said, they're light, they're comfortable, they feel good.
You know, they can't be great for you. So I guess it is a lot like a cocktail. And that really might be the most outdoor thing about them. Frankly.
They're kind of like the hydro flask for your feet or, you know, or Stanley or. No, probably not a yeti, even though the name more like a Beanie baby.
But product wise, there is an unmistakable fast fashion feel about them, I think. Okay. Where you get to the sheer number of styles, the constant churning of new introductions and frankly the ungodly valuation of the business.
I mean, really, it does. It kind of walks like a fast fashion brand.
Again, going back to their marketing in terms of, I would say that there's an intergenerational social media personalities. Most of the people they're talking to are folks that listen to us.
We'll never know, like, you know, the Sydney Sweeneys, the Kelly Andersons, the Chase Stokes who made his fame on the show Outer Banks, which is probably the most on brand influence they have. But they've got some of the guys from like what I call Auto Tune country, you know, things like.
Like that folks with, you know, millions of TikTok followers. And they're also focused on collaborations that really strike at this group.
NASCAR, Hot Wheels, SpongeBob, Mean Girls, Jelly Roll, who like you said, it's kind of like everywhere these days.
Colin
00:12:46.507 - 00:12:48.427
Jelly Roll propping up all over the place.
Producer Dave
00:12:48.531 - 00:14:39.777
Right. But he's a perfect kind of embodiment of this kind of, you know, hangout comfort kind of style too. He's a big dude, right. So he really does.
He does fit that. Their tone. So my issue with the brand isn't so much the fact that they're more of a mainstream kind of younger consumer.
They were built to go big and broad from the beginning. Like you said, they did not enter the zeitgeist through a subculture, which many active outdoor brands do.
They kind of came mainstream from the beginning and this is the perfect place for them. And they're not too worried about that.
But I think the issue that I kind of see going on is that their presence, their social presence, it's really more like just one ad after another. They're not storytelling in a way that goes beyond this influencer with a shoe, a shoe for sale. Here's a shoe, here's a collab. Over and over.
It's all beat and no rhythm. Colin. Right. It's just one after the other.
And a brand for longevity needs to be operating in a full circle of personality traits delivered both rationally and emotionally. And although they're kind of fun and casual, which you would think is an emotional plea, at the end of the day, it's just kind of a shoe for sale.
Shoe for sale. Cheap shoe for sale. Right, right. And, you know, it's funny, it's.
It's counterintuitive that a brand called hey dude who very much wants to come off as chill, their messaging is just. It feels really transactional. Right. No. No depth, no soul, if you will. Even the influencer stuff is highly curated.
You know, let's talk to our person as they are on a photo shoot, clearly on a photo shoot, or staged scenes, stage behind the scene scenes where our influencer is now talking about the shoe. They're not talking about the shoe backstage. Okay. So you're.
Colin
00:14:39.841 - 00:14:42.889
She wasn't. While she was building the treehouse. She didn't, you know.
Producer Dave
00:14:42.977 - 00:14:59.837
Right. One of the others. Right. It's just. It's always about the shoe, shoe, shoe. And again, again, it wakesurfing is really fun. Right.
It prevents us from having a relationship beyond just that transactional product. And that's where you start to see fractures in brand.
Colin
00:14:59.901 - 00:15:00.221
Yeah.
Producer Dave
00:15:00.293 - 00:15:41.719
Right. So you see softening because you're just having one conversation with your customer. They're going to get bored of that and they're going to move on.
Right. And so I think it's if. If everything you do and your daughter's kind of reaction to this, it feels like something you'd see on Instagram. Yeah.
It feels like an endless TikTok shop over and over and over. Right. And I think that's going to lose steam as kids age out and move on.
Like I said, I think I mentioned it kind of feels like a num nom or a hatchimal, you know, kind of like a Beanie Baby kind of trendy thing. I get a bunch of them and then I kind of, you know, I'll look back in 10 years and I'll have a nice OG story to tell.
But it's hard to not think of Them in a fast fashion context.
Colin
00:15:41.807 - 00:15:57.029
Well, to the fast fashion. The fast fashion point of it is huge because it's exactly how like the Sheins and the Temu's work. I mean it's like if you do the math, right.
So if they achieve their two and a half billion dollar valuation, if the average selling price of a pair of hey dudes is 50 bucks, that's 50 million shoes you gotta sell every year to maintain that.
Producer Dave
00:15:57.157 - 00:15:58.077
Yeah, right.
Colin
00:15:58.181 - 00:16:02.545
So who's buying? Are there 50 million people out there who want hey dudes? I mean, maybe.
Producer Dave
00:16:03.605 - 00:16:13.549
Well again, that's the churn I'm talking about. Right. And you know, Colin, but I think the question we really haven't answered in one sense is, you know, is hey dude an outdoor brand at all?
Colin
00:16:13.637 - 00:16:13.885
No.
Producer Dave
00:16:13.925 - 00:16:17.821
I mean, look, I know everything is about going outside is outdoor.
Colin
00:16:17.893 - 00:16:18.333
That's true.
Producer Dave
00:16:18.389 - 00:16:38.677
And the shoes, you know, they're made to go outdoors. But you don't need to be an extreme athlete to be an enthusiast for sure.
But this idea of a comfortable, casual, slip on piece, this is such an outdoor product. It has been for years. Right. You mentioned Sanuk Toms would be another one to play this Keen has played into this simple.
Colin
00:16:38.741 - 00:16:39.545
Allbirds.
Producer Dave
00:16:39.845 - 00:17:15.425
Allbirds, Olakai other end of the spectrum. So there's clearly the outdoor kind of vibe here. And so what I do see is one is why are these brands allowing them to come into the space?
That just seems like odd. And why aren't these brands seeing that opportunity that hey dude has captured in the sense to extend their authentic brands? Right, right.
And so if hey dude I think to kind of course correct some of the things that they're feeling from Brandon. Look, I don't know about their inventory.
I don't know a lot, a lot about the logistical and business conditions that are the reality of their, their valuation or their, their current earnings.
Colin
00:17:15.465 - 00:17:15.961
Of course.
Producer Dave
00:17:16.073 - 00:17:57.055
But if you just look at kind of at the brand and what it's doing, look, a more multidimensional storytelling is going to be important for them. They've got to get away from this transactional piece that only has so many legs.
And then secondly, how can you build authenticity within the active outdoor space? Right. What are the things that I can do? Can I have conversations?
Can I devote some energy and love to being outside connecting with the folks that like to do this and start to applying my brand to mean that as well. Not just hey, look at this cute new color which is also, I love all of that for sure. But you need to create some authentic connection.
Connections and not just showing my actor on a quad cycle and saying that, well, that's. That's outdoor.
Colin
00:17:57.215 - 00:18:27.243
What. And this is an interesting conversation because everything you're saying is spot on. And yeah, it is an interesting.
You kind of Monday morning quarterback, and especially with Crocs being involved. And I don't know who's at Crocs now versus who was at Crocs in like 2005.
But you kind of, you roll it back and say, well, what if we, you know, create an independent, a specialty or even an REI program or something to kind of get this placed as that ultimate sort of a prey shoe or whatever. But, you know, they hit the ground running with a half a billion dollar brand.
Producer Dave
00:18:27.299 - 00:18:27.467
Right?
Colin
00:18:27.491 - 00:19:01.853
It was 500 million bucks with an established audience. That was the bro crowd. And to your point, we think we.
I'm not sure if you said it now, but before we hit record, we're talking about how it was the mainstream. It's like young white males are buying this shoe. Well, it shouldn't be too hard to get some percentage of other demographics to buy them as well.
You know, I love the idea of them kind of seeing the value in the outdoors, but, man, I just don't know if at this point, how do you rehab the brand to the point where other people might even be interested? Because your point, everything on there is either like a Christmas shoe, a spongebob shoe, or a college football shoe.
Producer Dave
00:19:01.989 - 00:19:20.579
Well, I think it's not so much just about having to act like a quote unquote outdoor brand. It's just more of the notion that your consumers are more complex than maybe giving credit for.
And so the idea that every image has to be a transactional message, that is, you're building kind of, that is how it feels.
Colin
00:19:20.627 - 00:19:23.059
And they are active on social media. If you go look on TikTok, they.
Producer Dave
00:19:23.067 - 00:20:02.009
Are always active, hugely active. But it's all about the sell. And so it's this idea that that's a fragile foundation to build.
And so my sense, if you want to keep your mainstream relevancy, you're going to have to. You're going to have to expand your storytelling to be a little more emotive, to talk about their customers or their people, their.
Their targeted audiences lives in a fuller sense than just this shoe. Right, right, right.
I think that's the, that's the opportunity that they have and, and subcultures will come from that because it's authentic and it's real and it's more meaningful than just, you know, like I said, just Buy my shoe.
Colin
00:20:02.177 - 00:23:16.789
And I think this is relevant especially to any of our, you know, retailers listening or anybody in the industry listening because I mean, this is, you know, a hugely impactful brand between Crocs and Hey Dude. I mean even if hey dude doesn't achieve what it can do, it's already out there. It's already eating up shelf space.
It is, it's, I'm sure there's impactful conversations to be had around the sustainability and circularity of it all. 50 million units I'd have to sell in order to get to that 2.5 million mark. That's, that's a lot of shoes.
But also it will influence kind of what other brands do and what people, you know, how they will engage with younger consumers. And I think it is. And it's a relevant conversation across the board for sure.
Well guys, it's time, it is time for our weekly segment to make sure you are getting more out of the outdoors. It's time for more with Thermore Rock Fighters. What do you know about Carbon? Well tell you.
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And that is what you'll find inside the pyramid insulated jacket from Carbon. So those extra cold days will not keep you from ripping turns this winter.
Because whether it's making amazing new garments or staying warm and safe out on the trail, you can do more with Thermore. All right, let's get into a couple other stories here.
One is actually from some listener emails because last week on the show producer Dave and I dug into the state of Marmot and explored the notion of a zombie brand which is, you know, not quite dead, but definitely not thriving. We got a huge response from all of you on that episode. We can't thank you enough for your comments and your emails.
If you want to comment on something you hear here on the Rock Fight, maybe you're a huge hey dude Stan. And you want to tell us about it?
Send your emails to myrockfightmail.com but most of the feedback we got last week was in the vein of thank you for calling out something I had been noticing. But we also got plenty of other examples of zombie brands, including this email from a listener in Virginia named Betsy.
Betsy writes, speaking of zombie brands, have you guys checked out Prana's website recently?
As someone who discovered climbing in college and has always enjoyed yoga, I've been a Prana fan for a long time, but they're definitely not the brand I discovered back then. Talk about a zombie brand.
So, David, I did, and honestly, it's pretty shocking to discover that the current brand direction of Prana isn't just casual. It's like mall, clothing store casual.
Like, if I took a screenshot of their homepage and sent it to you, having scrubbed out any branding and I asked you, is this the homepage of Prana or the Gap or Old Davey, you probably wouldn't be able to give me a confident answer.
So, Dave, I have to ask, what do you think happened to Prana and why is Columbia, who owns Prana, why do you think they're going this direction with this brand?
Especially a year after they doubled down on Mountain Hardware, getting back to their roots, which resulted in maybe the only outdoor brand to be up from a sales point in 2024. All the news is doom and gloom except for Mountain Hardware. What do you think is going on with Prana, man?
Producer Dave
00:23:16.957 - 00:23:32.497
Well, again, it is interesting that Hardware does look back at who they are and unique place and they've celebrated that piece. And I feel like that, you know, Colombia hasn't been the most natural ownership.
Colin
00:23:32.641 - 00:23:34.657
For sure for either brand, probably.
Producer Dave
00:23:34.841 - 00:23:36.401
Well, yeah, for sure.
Colin
00:23:36.553 - 00:23:38.325
Talk to Montreal. How they doing?
Producer Dave
00:23:39.745 - 00:24:06.763
Look, they certainly fill out these kind of areas of the market that Colombia doesn't service. So this idea and Prana, for those that don't know, they were kind of the.
They're filling the space that Lululemon took from a big perspective that Athleta was kind of getting to. It was a little.
It was a little more organic, if you want to call it, you know, kind of climbing and yoga at a time when there was really nothing like that.
Colin
00:24:06.819 - 00:24:09.587
Yeah, it was like them and Grimicci, you know, like those are the brands.
Producer Dave
00:24:09.651 - 00:24:52.363
Yeah. Organic and kind of groovy to it. And I still think that that's the issue that's missing now.
There is no personality or differential in the brand offering.
The product might have a nice design language which is clean and contemporary, and they want that consumer, that modern, larger than outdoor consumer. That totally makes sense.
I still maintain the way to get there, though, is coming off as this, as this sophisticated, organic, whole, like wellness kind of driven mindset of that consumer to provide a clear distinction from the other offerings that make casual, athletic athleisure wear, which is essentially what Prana was. Was built on.
Colin
00:24:52.539 - 00:25:45.855
Like, I'm looking at Hardware's website. Yeah. It doesn't really feel like. And I don't know. I wasn't that familiar with their offering. Like, it's there.
It's still pretty much similar, I feel like, to what it was before they kind of put the onus back on their heritage. Right. There's this brand, this kind of creative move they made, like, 12 months ago. And it's not to say that they revamped their product line at all.
It just really was how they wanted to present the brand to the public. Right. It's more to say, like, hey, don't forget that we were a freaking badasses back in the day, and we're still badasses.
Where's really the message you can still buy these cotton pants? I'm looking at. But.
But we're gonna put on our homepage, we're gonna put dudes on top of mountains and women, like, on climbing and all this kind of stuff. And I. And I. I just can't seem to understand, like, why. Why wouldn't you want to do something similar with Prana? What is. What is Prana to Colombia?
That they're better served as the gap versus the what they were built on, which is still, I think, a relevant category for the outdoors.
Producer Dave
00:25:45.955 - 00:26:07.199
It is. And I think when you say the badass, there's two sides to that. There's the physical piece and the activity.
And so maybe they do want to move away from this kind of core association with, say, like, climbing. And in specific, that type of. That makes sense. However, what they also had was this kind of soulful authority. Right.
The vibe of Prana felt like the vibe of the community.
Colin
00:26:07.287 - 00:26:10.143
Yeah. Chris Sharma's a big athlete with them, and it kind of felt like.
Producer Dave
00:26:10.319 - 00:26:38.315
It just felt like it. And same thing with yoga, in terms of the way they approached yoga, not so much like a gym sport, but more of a soul sport. Right. And that kind.
And now that has just kind of shifted. And I think that's, again, the play, the nat. I mean, just the name itself. Right. That's the play, the natural fit.
And I think they would find more success if they went after their contemporary, stylish consumer, but did so in a way that felt a little more soulful than the other options.
Colin
00:26:38.435 - 00:26:52.145
A lot of buzz coming out of Colombia in the last couple weeks about some creative and brand changes. I think we Even touched on it a little bit last week. Do you think this figures into that?
Is this a positioning specifically because they want to maybe try and reclaim some of that space for Colombia?
Producer Dave
00:26:52.445 - 00:27:45.155
Could be. Very. Could be. And of course, hardware has its place. I think there is a Venn diagram that where all these folks meet, for sure.
I think it belongs in that portfolio for sure. But I think it's a subtle.
Subjective is probably not the right word, but it is a nuanced way to position and voice this thing that can be both kind of palatable to a larger audience but still create a sense of distinctness. And it's all leveraged from its original, original brand. Right. The authenticity of the brand. We talk about that over and over and over.
But here's the case where that's, to me, that's the missing piece from this. It's not the desire to want to have that customer. Right.
It's not the desire to want to have that customer that they're clearly going for, but it's how you do it that keeps you real, keeps you back, and keeps you in that core game. I guess that's the idea.
Colin
00:27:45.235 - 00:27:58.603
If there's a recurring theme in this podcast, it's that so many times people forget what gets them to places and the authenticity is such an overused word, but it matters so much. And it truly is like why these brands succeed to begin with and then they just gets abandoned.
Producer Dave
00:27:58.659 - 00:28:14.413
You know, it might be one of those kind of those key polluters that cause the zombieism. Right. Once your authenticity levels drop, being kind of a below a certain reading. Yeah. You become start to zombie out, man.
Colin
00:28:14.579 - 00:28:29.765
Well, which zombie fate is best for you? Would you rather be like the cool, like, you know, hippie, yoga climbing brand that now is hanging with Kaki Larry at the mall?
Or would you rather be Marmot, which is just sort of underperforming against your heritage, which is a worse fate for you?
Producer Dave
00:28:30.865 - 00:28:39.817
Oh, well, at least with the mall there's a food court, right? Let's be clear. Like, there's something we can hang out then. And there's things like Uncle Rico, you're.
Colin
00:28:39.841 - 00:28:43.349
Like, yeah, I used to be cool, man. I used to be such a badass.
Producer Dave
00:28:43.497 - 00:28:48.565
And there's that shop that has all like the gemstones and the fake fossils.
Colin
00:28:48.645 - 00:28:50.941
Like, I'm totally sparrow.
Producer Dave
00:28:51.053 - 00:28:54.453
Oh, right. That's exactly right. And fake fossils.
Colin
00:28:54.589 - 00:28:55.157
That's true.
Producer Dave
00:28:55.221 - 00:28:56.045
Totally down for that.
Colin
00:28:56.085 - 00:29:06.625
Well, there you go, Prana. You're doing a little better than Marmot, I guess. Well, anyway, we'll keep an eye On Columbia for sure.
But let's take one quick break and then we'll be back with our last headline and our parting shots.
Chris DeMakes
00:29:09.405 - 00:29:12.865
We believe in the sun to make you happy.
Colin
00:29:13.765 - 00:29:14.186
We believe.
Chris DeMakes
00:29:14.193 - 00:29:38.271
We believe in the sock hold for comfort. We believe in the sock you don't have to bust, blister or fall. We believe in free range toes and having room to roam.
And fine gauge merino wool is comfortable. Asshole. We believe in Made in USA and we believe in doing what we say. We all fit. We fit.
Producer Dave
00:29:38.463 - 00:29:39.435
That's right.
Chris DeMakes
00:29:40.265 - 00:29:45.845
We're Fitz. We Fitz. That's right. And we believe in the stock.
Producer Dave
00:29:46.265 - 00:29:46.857
Fitz.
Chris DeMakes
00:29:46.921 - 00:29:47.401
Fitz.
Producer Dave
00:29:47.473 - 00:29:48.245
Fitz.
Chris DeMakes
00:29:48.665 - 00:29:52.645
We believe in the sock fits. Fitz. Fitz.
Colin
00:29:53.305 - 00:30:44.733
That was Fitz socks coming in hot. Or at least thermo regulated. They're bringing a fresh new sock sound to 2025. If you don't know Fitz, you should.
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If you don't have an appointment, go by their booth and say hi. Who knows, you may run into Travis and Taylor just hanging out and talking socks. And now back to the show. All right, lastly today.
Gear Patrol posted a review last week about a new hiking shoe from vans called hold on, let me take a deep breath here. The OTW Old School 36 Trail Vibram. I mean, what the fuck up was with these brands and their naming conventions?
Anyway, this is $165 technical hiking shoe. It comes in two colors complete with.
Producer Dave
00:30:44.789 - 00:30:47.585
Hold on, hold it. Colin. Yeah, what was that again?
Colin
00:30:48.525 - 00:30:50.985
Otw old school 36 trail vibram.
Producer Dave
00:30:52.085 - 00:30:58.185
That's it. That's all Gotta take my breath, Dave. Yeah, right.
Colin
00:30:58.645 - 00:31:59.815
Okay, so the shoe comes complete with Vibram outsole and a boa lacing system. And it is supposed to be pulling from the van's iconic old school, which the article notes was Vans first foray into technical footwear in 1977.
My initial thoughts here are, hey Vans, if you want to make hiking shoes, okay, but don't try to tie it to the old school. And secondly, hey Vans, why the fuck do you want to try and compete in the technical hiking shoe category? I see what the upside is here.
I guess if you want to steal a little market share and you're like the 12th most relevant hiking shoe, or maybe you become a dingleberry hiking shoe at a big box retailer that has absolutely zero trail cred. Like you're like the Cool hiking shoe on the wal of dicks. I mean, this is just one of those.
This is just one of those where the performance of the shoe could not matter less because it will never catch on with people who hike. And my prediction is that this thing is gone in like 18 months. But Dave, I know you've got some history with vans.
I'd love to hear what you think about the. Hold on. Otw old school 36 trail vibram.
Producer Dave
00:32:02.715 - 00:32:04.415
Yeah, say that again.
Colin
00:32:05.115 - 00:32:16.213
I need oxygen. I'm like, start the stopwatch. Otw old school 36 trail vibram just rolls off the tongue.
Producer Dave
00:32:16.269 - 00:32:39.109
Right, right. Rolls off the tongue. Yeah. Well, look, I mean I gotta say they call it a trail shoe. To me it doesn't look like a trail shoe. Which maybe is a positive.
Right. In one sense there is a design solution here that doesn't look like the others necessarily. So I'm going to say that that's a positive piece.
But now let's compare back a little.
Colin
00:32:39.109 - 00:32:42.753
You mean or, or just other, other hiking shoes.
Producer Dave
00:32:42.889 - 00:32:45.713
It's a little cleaner than some of the other. I mean it doesn't look like, if.
Colin
00:32:45.729 - 00:32:49.089
Anything it's like the, the Oboz katabatic in a way, kind of like that.
Producer Dave
00:32:49.097 - 00:32:53.425
It is definitely part of the newer generation. That doesn't look like a Moab.
Colin
00:32:53.505 - 00:32:55.009
Yeah, it doesn't look exactly right.
Producer Dave
00:32:55.057 - 00:34:53.551
Right. It doesn't look like a Moab. So when we say that, let's get that out of our minds. Right? It's definitely cleaner.
Kind of more of a mono upper construction looking thing. Look, technical footwear has always been kind of a siren song for vans. They've been kind of playing at it for a long time, many decades.
And I think part of that comes from that they represent a sports culture that has never has always had a hard time viewing itself as a sport. Did you know what I mean? In terms of. Even the action sports kind of resisted organization, it resisted competition.
And just only recently now with the Olympics inclusion of all of these sport, it's just, it's now, you know, I think, I don't think anybody debates that Ashton basket of it as a sport. But with that comes kind of technical innovation.
And look, you know, the big, the big transition of that culture was in the 90s of the beginning of true skate shoes. Right. You know, brands like DC and Etnies and Vans really started air walk.
You know, they were a little later to the party, they played a more of a fashion casual side. They did go, they did go that way but they at first they really Took that other route.
But with these brands innovating, you know, the ollie area, reinforcements of extra layers, the thick padded tongs, the triple and quad stitching around the layers, all of that, I mean it's just, it's all attempts to bring innovation that would better the sport. Right. And then, then, you know, vans gets into the snowboard market and technical boots. So this was clearly a part of the.
Of their organization that they wanted to build and did. Did great. Well. Did. Did well with. Excuse me. So the drive is there. So I don't really fault them for wanting. Seeing that maybe they have a place here.
I don't fault them for their old school vibe. What's interesting, by going to the off the wall aspect of their.
Their segmentation, they're avoiding the mte, which I thought was more of their outdoorsy technical.
Colin
00:34:53.663 - 00:34:56.047
Yeah, that's made for the.
Producer Dave
00:34:56.111 - 00:35:06.725
That's right. Made for the elements. Right. Which I don't like necessarily. It does sound like they were naming and realized that all condition gear was taken.
So what are we going to do now?
Colin
00:35:08.785 - 00:35:11.425
Take ACG and make it different words.
Producer Dave
00:35:11.545 - 00:35:22.225
Right. So. But I'm curious of why that didn't fit into that section.
Because even in that section, that category, they're honoring the old school, if you will, in terms of the silhouetting and things like that.
Colin
00:35:22.265 - 00:35:45.757
But at least the MCGs look like vans. Like they do. They really do. I mean, I'm not a fan, but I would at least say.
All right, I get that as a line expansion because it's like the MTE that looks like a van that. Yeah, technically you can hike in it, but you're probably not. I mean, the otw. I'm not going to say the whole name again.
It looks like they're really going to try and compete with other technical hiking shoes.
Producer Dave
00:35:45.901 - 00:36:17.889
Right, right. And again, they've been down this road before. I believe a few years ago they introduced a performance mountain biking. That kind of idea makes.
Kind of idea. Well, but it's in the same idea. It's over here. Let me just. I guess this is where it comes down to.
Look, some of the greatest skateboarders, BMXers have ridden old schools and half cabs really well. Right. And they've done some amazing things in that. And so this is. Where does that technical really become any requirement?
Colin
00:36:18.017 - 00:36:40.955
Well, there is back to our authenticity thing. There's an authenticity in sport now. Right. Where there are people who are bike packing in bedrock sandals.
I mean it's like the sort of the need for the technicality the technical stuff is sort of proven to be. It's personal preference versus essential. Right, right.
And so to that point, just put a nicer outsole on a pair of regular old schools and you could probably go hike anything you want. Right.
Producer Dave
00:36:40.995 - 00:36:43.259
Well, put the Vibram on that and you've got yourself.
Colin
00:36:43.347 - 00:36:45.135
That actually be kind of cool, actually.
Producer Dave
00:36:45.915 - 00:37:04.127
It does. And I guess they've played in that, too. But look, again, it's one of those. I think the shoe. It's a beautiful shoe.
The sidewall of it is just wonderful. I don't know how different necessarily it is functionally, but if there is a stylistic aspect to it, yeah, it's nice.
Colin
00:37:04.191 - 00:37:13.615
But now you're competing against trail runners because people hiking, trail runners, all the stuff. It's the same argument we've always made about category expansion.
Producer Dave
00:37:13.695 - 00:37:17.767
And am I going to take down a Salomon to bring this up? No, probably not. Right. That idea.
Colin
00:37:17.831 - 00:37:22.447
And now it's taking resources away from vans. I think this is another point you wanted to make.
Producer Dave
00:37:22.631 - 00:37:23.727
Well, right.
Colin
00:37:23.871 - 00:37:25.759
About what it should be focused on.
Producer Dave
00:37:25.847 - 00:37:50.907
Right. That's, I guess, where we get to. Vans, too, has had their challenges over the last few quarters. And so it's definitely been a talk. And so if those.
If those are some of my issues and I see where am I going to put my resources it in technical hike and it's upside. Or should I be looking at the real problem that they have facing them and that's they have a. Hey, dude. Problem. They do, right?
I mean, their success is coming at somebody's expense.
Colin
00:37:50.971 - 00:38:00.255
Yeah. Because if for all my, like, you know, grandstanding, like, fuck them, they're not going to make it.
Well, if I'm wrong, and I very well could be, guess who they're going to be taking share from? Fucking Vance.
Producer Dave
00:38:00.755 - 00:38:04.763
Yeah, right, right. That other coastal casual comfort shoe.
Colin
00:38:04.859 - 00:38:05.163
Yes.
Producer Dave
00:38:05.219 - 00:38:05.507
Right.
Colin
00:38:05.571 - 00:38:13.923
This is a west Coast East. Oh, my God. Old school rap is back. I don't know where Hayden's base is probably in Boulder, but I think of them as an east coast brand.
Producer Dave
00:38:14.099 - 00:38:15.299
Right, right.
Colin
00:38:15.467 - 00:38:17.935
All right, it's time for the parting shop.
Producer Dave
00:38:28.205 - 00:38:28.533
All right.
Colin
00:38:28.549 - 00:40:32.219
My parting shot this week, it's an early one and from a usual target for me on this show, we gotta talk about the outside festival.
Because word came this week, not via big sposhy announcement, but via the dates being added to Denver's City Civic Park's website, that the next iteration of the outside festival will be held next May 31st. And as much as I think outside has royally fucked up just about everything, it has touched in recent years.
The music and festival portion of this past year's event was by all accounts really fun for those who are into that sort of thing.
So despite June's well documented and overcrowded trade event schedule, for those looking to score some swag and see a band that I absolutely would never consider going to see and probably consider them lame as shit, the Outside festival probably a great option for you.
But if you head to the festival's website, the banner for the 2025 event, while again lacking official dates, promises that the Outside festival will be bringing back the Summit limit, which was. And again this is anecdotally, I wasn't there. The trade focused and probably the least successful portion of last year's event.
Now I'm not saying that Outside can't get its house in order and produce something worthy of attendance, but even if they do, they would then be falling into the same problem that every trade event has. The over packed schedule of June events. And I'm including May 31st to that because if they.
Even if they hit a grand slam when it comes to programming, there are plenty who won't attend because they're already planning to attend one or six of the other trade focus events taking a place taking place next June. So my shot to Outside is more of a rock throw of encouragement. Move your event to August.
Anything you do that is trade related will not be impacted by the buying calendar. That also that causes brands and retailers to speak up about June. There's this old baseball adage that goes, hit them where they ain't.
And for anyone creating new events for the industry, that applies if you want the industry to show up. So Outside, Move your event outside of the May June timeframe if you want to do industry stuff and more likely people will show up.
That's my parting shot.
Producer Dave
00:40:32.347 - 00:40:36.443
Throwing some rocks. Not sure they were necessary, but I hear you.
Colin
00:40:36.619 - 00:40:41.175
Well, you know, they make me mad. They so mad, Dave.
Producer Dave
00:40:42.675 - 00:40:49.095
Look, they got a cool party. They want to do it during Memorial Day. I get you. You're right. The trade aspect doesn't make as much sense.
Colin
00:40:49.675 - 00:40:53.123
Oh, hey, drop the Summit and just have the festival. And I'm like, yeah man, great.
Producer Dave
00:40:53.219 - 00:40:55.775
And just because you don't like the music doesn't mean it's lame.
Colin
00:40:56.075 - 00:41:04.313
I'm just saying it's fucking lame, man. I'll tell you what, if Outside put on a punk rock show, I'd be like, okay, I'm coming, right?
Producer Dave
00:41:04.489 - 00:41:04.777
What?
Colin
00:41:04.801 - 00:41:10.565
Rancid's headlining. All right, I'll be there. What do you got what's your parting shot, Dave?
Producer Dave
00:41:11.065 - 00:41:38.093
My parting shot? Well, after that I'm going to actually I'm going to look inward this week, Colin.
My parting shot is at the rock fight because I got to tell you, what did we do? It's what we didn't do, Colin. Here today we're talking. We're taken by surprise by Prana and their pivot to mall based retail tailored them.
We're taken by surprise by a two and a half billion dollar acquisition years ago for a brand that we know little about called hey dude.
Colin
00:41:38.149 - 00:41:38.709
Yeah, Big miss.
Producer Dave
00:41:38.757 - 00:41:58.259
Big miss. So my, yeah, my right rock is like what the heck were we thinking?
And we didn't see this coming and it's our job to stay abreast of stuff so you don't have to never wish that upon anybody. So that's my parting shot is oh my gosh. We've got to. We got a. We got to do better, Colin. We can do better.
Colin
00:41:58.397 - 00:42:23.455
All right, man. Well, good parting shots today everybody, meaning you and me. But the rock fight. We'll wrap it up there.
The rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight llc. Our producer today is David Karstadt. Art direction provided by Sarah Thundercats ho Gentzert. I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening.
And here to take us out is Kristen Makes and he's going to sing the rock fight fight song. Will see you next time. Rock fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:42:23.535 - 00:43:18.995
Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight.
Welcome to the rock fight where we speak our truth Slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree.
We talk about human powered outdoor activities and pic bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture music, the latest movie reviews, ideas that aim this is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Welcome to the rock fight. Rock fight.
Welcome to the rock light rock light Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight. Rock fight welcome to the rock fight. Rock fight. Rock flight.