Today Doug heads to the deserts of Utah to open the container with artist Cody Chamberlain.
Doug opens the episode by diving into the significance of the wilderness as a source of inspiration and creativity, emphasizing that the desert offers a unique perspective that can rejuvenate our minds and spirits.
He then speaks with Cody Chamberlain, an accomplished artist with deep roots in Utah's landscapes. Cody shares insights on how his lifelong engagement with the natural world informs his artistic practice and fosters a commitment to environmental stewardship.
Doug and Cody explore the essential role of art in navigating contemporary challenges, urging listeners to recognize the value of wild spaces in preserving our humanity amidst the cacophony of modern life.
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Episode Transcript
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:01.680 - 00:05:06.406
Welcome to Open Container. I'm Doug Schnitzspahn. I'm a journalist, writer, and overall lover of the outdoors.
I fought wildfires, reported on national politics, published magazines, and I once ate an apricot from a tree next to Percy Shelley's grave.
Some of the most powerful experiences in my life have happened in the Utah desert. I've been lost. I've done dumb shit on exposed cliffs. I've seen oceans of stars and had the best sleep of my life.
Out here, you see the world in a new way. There are new perspectives in the deep canyons. There are hidden microcosms, pools of water and maple trees yards from bare oven hot rocks.
There are the stories of the people who lived here for millennia written on the rock. This is one of the few places where you can truly get lost, and I find it essential for creativity.
We live in a world that's becoming more and more boxed in. We are defined by algorithms, by our technology, by a common language in English that's spoken throughout the world.
If we want to continue being creative as people and as a species, we need to find ways and expressions outside of these limitations. The desert can give us this in the gnarled bark of a juniper tree, in the silence of a hidden pool.
Out here, our experiences allow us to reset our brain and rethink. After all, isn't this why we go outside? To find a new way to think, a new way to be? This is what art gives us too.
I recently worked on a project writing a guidebook for the town of Green Mountain Falls near Colorado Springs on the side of Pikes Peak. It's a very small town that has embraced installation art.
Here you can find incredible sculptures such as Earth Speaks, a land based art project grounded in healing and belonging by Osage artist Brook Smiley. This art piece simply consists of benches in the shape of a bear's paw that embrace the surrounding cottonwoods and the burbling creek.
This installation was created in conjunction with the Ute Tribe of Colorado, the only indigenous people with reservation lands in a state which. Which at least 48 tribes have historically called home. It is a powerful reminder that this land is deeper than what we want it to be.
It's an important connection to the indigenous people who are still here and still know this land better. It's a necessary reminder, but certainly not strident or in your face. You simply sit on the benches and feel the land.
The sound of the cottonwood leaves, the sound of the creek. Perhaps how it was meant to be. The art here is being here in the spot and knowing its significance.
That's an extremely important reminder for us, not just culturally, but personally as well. As society becomes more enthralled with technology as we inhabit more spaces, it is crucial for us to be able to find renewal in the land.
Art that comes out of the land will become more and more important as the noise around us becomes more deafening. It's not all seriousness either. There's joy, there's fun outdoors. We can thrill ourselves to watch a red tail hawk fly.
We can touch trees, feel that juniper bark. We can lie down naked in the canyons against the warm sandstone. This is art, simply being out here, experiencing it.
My guest today is someone who understands the importance of art, especially art that comes from nature.
Artist Cody Chamberlain spent his childhood roaming the high west desert of Utah, where he developed a lifelong concern and respect for the environment. He began working as a forest ranger when he was just 18 years old, later earning his BFA in Art and Visual communications at Utah Valley University.
He holds graduate degrees in anthropology and archaeology from the University of Utah. After completing his undergraduate degree, he scored one of the most distinguished exhibitions in Utah as the first of his career.
He recently completed a large scale oil painting commission for the state of Utah, who also purchased the image rights for his previous large scale work. His work represents a new breed of artists finding inspiration in Utah's deserts, forests and mountains.
So let's open the Container with Cody Chamberlain.
Welcome to Open Container and our guest today is Cody Chamberlain, who is an artist, an explorer, and a lover of the desert. Welcome, Cody. And to get started, why don't you tell us a bit about how you got on the path to become a professional artist.
Cody Chamberlain
00:05:06.518 - 00:06:41.890
Hi Doug. Yeah, thanks for having me. How I got on the path. Well, I was born that way. I've always had a passion for drawing.
You know, it's kind of well known in the family that as soon as I could pick up an implement to draw with, I started decorating the walls and the carpet and everything else. So, yeah, and then, you know, it was always, I always drew or painted and, you know, I had supplies to do that.
My mother always made sure to keep me, you know, coloring books and stuff like that. So it was fostered in an early age and it was always there no matter what I was doing in my life.
You know, formative years growing up, different jobs, different that, different this. I never really thought it was a, you know, an actual possibility to become, you know, I knew there was artists out there, but, you know, it's.
You never think, well, at least I didn't that. That, well, I'm gonna go for this. But it's like convergent evolution as my life was going, and I wouldn't let this thing go.
And then I ended up getting into getting my bachelor's of fine arts, going to college for it, and that kind of steered me a little more towards it.
But even still, going through college, I thought it would be, like, maybe something that could fortify another degree or a career move, and that wouldn't end up being my end goal, but it was always there, and it eventually encompassed everything else I was doing until I realized, like, I, this is what I'm doing. This is what I've been doing. I've never stopped doing it. And this is, you know, direction I'm going. And here I am.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:06:42.510 - 00:06:48.230
And you grew up. And you. You grew up in Utah, right?
Cody Chamberlain
00:06:48.350 - 00:06:48.934
Yeah.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:06:49.062 - 00:06:51.010
And where in Utah did you grow up?
Cody Chamberlain
00:06:51.630 - 00:07:38.792
Primarily? I grew up with my grandparents in a very small town. And this is my test for people that are from Utah.
You know, when I say small town, they're like, tell me. I'll. You know, I'll know where it is. Cedar Fort, Utah. And more than half the time, they're like, huh?
For the most part, it's a row of mailboxes along a lonely highway out in the west desert. But, you know, it's a little bit bigger now. But, yeah, so I grew up.
It's way out in the sage and a really cool, you know, like, grandparents had an awesome house out in the desert. I could run right out into the fields and go exploring right at an early age. So it was a really great place. And then, you know, Utah county as well.
So kind of right here in the heart of Utah.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:07:38.936 - 00:07:42.380
Sure, yeah. And you also work for the homegrown.
Cody Chamberlain
00:07:43.440 - 00:07:45.500
So, pardon the accent.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:07:47.280 - 00:07:51.032
Well, and you also. And you worked for the Forest Service for a while, too, right, In Utah?
Cody Chamberlain
00:07:51.176 - 00:08:44.590
I still work for the Forest Service, yeah. When I was talking about, like, all things kind of coming together to. To point me in this artistic direction, I have. I mean, I still have the.
It's not a day job. It's a career.
And I've had it for over 20 years now, and that allows me to have great insurance, health coverage that's becoming more and more important as I get older. And retirement, which is something that, you know, a lot of artists.
I mean, it's so scary to think about running your own business and trying to figure out all these life challenges and stuff for later on.
And it's been extremely, like, convenient for me to keep that all organized with the Forest Service just on a logistical like basis, let alone the Forest Service keeping me patrolling the Wasatch front all over the mountains, and learning how people interact with the environment over the past 20 years and being out there all the time.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:08:44.890 - 00:08:47.554
So what's your actual. What's your title then, for the forest?
Cody Chamberlain
00:08:47.682 - 00:09:42.796
I'm a volunteer coordinator, the Forest Service. So I get.
I get a really cool job of, like, managing and coordinating with all these proactive people and different groups and organizations that want to go out and do something good for, like, public lands. And I get a mix and mingle with them. So it's like the best of the best, you know, the people going out there. And it's.
It's a really busy forest right here along the Wasatch front. So it's. It's a flow of thousands of people, really, that want to get out there and interact with it. But I've done a little of everything.
Hey, it's been a long career. It's everything from scrubbing restrooms to building trail, working on fires. Like.
Oh, yeah, I say this one thing that I'm primarily doing now, which, you know, and it also involves a lot of office time, too. But, you know, it's like most agencies, especially government agency, it's underfunded.
So everybody has to kind of mix and mingle and do a wide range of things.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:09:42.918 - 00:09:47.904
Yeah, yeah, I've been there. I worked for the Forest Service, and, yeah, I. I cleaned a lot of outhouses. Moved outhouses.
Cody Chamberlain
00:09:47.952 - 00:09:52.768
Yeah. I was like, oh, he's gonna key in on that. He knows all about that.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:09:52.824 - 00:10:09.838
Yeah, I remember the outhouses. Yeah, well. And, you know, there's a. You know, I think there's been a lot of talk that the Forest Service is no longer hiring seasonal employees.
So I'd assume that makes the work you're doing with volunteers even more important. Right. Because a lot of that seasonal work is now volunteer work.
Cody Chamberlain
00:10:09.984 - 00:11:37.520
Bingo. Exactly. More and more. And you know what? Even. Okay, so that's for this fiscal year. I'm sure that's going to change.
That's for whatever reasons, way beyond my control or knowledge that they. The. The budget was this or that. And there's not going to be any hiring of seasonal positions this season.
But I'm sure, you know, that's going to change because we rely heavily on, obviously, the seasonal work for. And getting younger people involved and starting their careers. That's how it starts. So that's going to have to.
She can't just not do that as an entry level type thing. But yeah, you're absolutely right. Volunteer.
I mean, even, even without that current restriction, volunteering is becoming more and more important just because more and more people are enjoying, you know, the outdoors. And we're not necessarily getting more and more in our budget or more and more employees.
It's not really keeping up with the pace of how many people are out there doing, you know, this or that.
So yes, volunteering, probably volunteering across everything, you know, that we have going on in our culture is going to become more and more important. That's great. And who doesn't want to volunteer on the forest? I mean, it's not like, you know, it's still, it's very fulfilling.
There's a lot of people that really, you know, use these places or do this or that. And so it's definitely like touching on that, that direct human contact.
But just the sure fact that you get to work and volunteer in the outdoors too is like, I mean, that's great.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:11:38.140 - 00:11:47.492
Yeah, yeah.
And are there any particular groups that you see are really making a big difference out there and getting young people involved and getting more people on the trails?
Cody Chamberlain
00:11:47.636 - 00:12:13.022
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. So, you know, there's a lot of just one offs where like an individual wants to get involved and that's fantastic.
You know, I can put them on whatever fits their, their needs. But we have a lot of large groups, even some corporate groups getting involved.
So their employees kind of like for a team building exercise, they'll go volunteer out on the forest and go help out with some trail work or something like that. And then we have some really thoughtful groups that we work with. Tread Lightly is one of them.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:12:13.126 - 00:12:13.598
Yeah.
Cody Chamberlain
00:12:13.694 - 00:13:09.308
Where they'll take a lot of four. You know, we have a 4x4 is huge in Utah, especially along some of the Wasatch front.
So it's working with a lot of these user groups that one would think, like, what are the, you know, like they might be kind of harsh or this group, there's a stereotype towards a certain group.
But funny enough, those are some of the groups and clubs that are the most involved trying to change those perceptions by, you know, helping out with this or that. Being like, listen, we want to enjoy it, we want to do it respectfully and in the right way.
And that's, that's, that's probably one of the most fulfilling parts of it is when they're trying to change public perception and they're educating their group and whatever culture they're coming from, abuse.
They're also, you know, spreading that education so it's not just like me interacting with this group, it's that group interacting with thousands of other people. It's like a rock in a pond. It just ripples out and it's a huge impact.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:13:09.444 - 00:13:21.324
Right. And they can self police themselves too. And that's probably the best way to get other people like them to follow the rules.
Instead of having someone in a green suit show up and say, you can't do this and give you a ticket. Right?
Cody Chamberlain
00:13:21.492 - 00:14:34.170
Yes. There's the policing and then there's just like, if people see people out working on like, hey, what are you guys doing?
We're like, we're getting involved. What are you doing? And then boom, it clicks in for them.
Like, oh, you know, I don't know if this is right, but I kind of call, I kind of call the shame factor. It's like, oh man, look at them.
You know, they're a 4x4 group or a mountain bike club, you know, doing this and they're, they're doing all this great work. We should probably do the same thing too. Instead of just, you know, why not incorporate that into our program as well? So that's amazing. That's great.
Yeah, it's. I've been doing it for a long time. I.
It allows me and also the force it is, it is more flexible than maybe a lot of other jobs as far as like having this whole other art career intermingling with it. You know, it was seasonal for years, which gave me some time off for some larger paintings.
But, you know, now it's just at the level I'm at, I can kind of gauge my own time and schedule everything in as needed because boy, it gets busy at the forest service and the full time art. You know, I didn't realize it until maybe just a couple of years ago. It's like I have two full time jobs.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:14:35.710 - 00:14:46.742
Yeah, I mean, a lot of time. And your art, your art's really, your art career has really taken off recently. Right.
You're getting a lot of commission commissions from the state of Utah. Can you tell us a bit about some of the big commissions you've gotten recently and stuff? You've.
Cody Chamberlain
00:14:46.806 - 00:16:51.736
Oh, I've. I've got some large, you know, and some private collections.
And then the state of Utah reached out about a year ago and we worked out an agree for commission for them. And they're, they're really large, you know, they're close to eight feet, you know, long oil paintings.
So they can take upwards of six months to a year to finish. And I'LL work on other things while, you know, the paint's drying here and there in different layers. But yeah, it.
So the past couple years I've had some really big commissions. A good group of them, and that's been fantastic. That's kind of allowed me for my art career to kind of take front and center in my life.
And then a lot of smaller. And they're not smaller.
They're probably what you might call regular size paintings and drawings and different works of art, you know, commissions for various people. So it's been, you know, I'm out of work essentially right now. I'm out of paint. I don't have a stockpile.
And that's kind of how the commission for the state came to be. They loved the one piece that I got into this competition for the state and it did really well. And everybody responded to. Responded to it very well.
And they asked to purchase it. I said, well, it's actually on loan from the owners to be in the show, but you can commission a piece.
And the state of Utah, well, we don't normally commission pieces. And I said, well, I don't have five of these sitting on a shelf. They take, you know, close to a year to finish. It's, you know, you let me know.
And then they reached back out saying, you know what, our board decided to go with it commission. And so they had to rewrite their contract or this or that to get this huge painting going. And that was great. You know, let's rock and roll. So.
And it's also a little bit, you know, nerve wracking too. It's like I kind of had plan B on the side the whole time because, you know, it's time restraints.
And they, they paid a little bit upfront and then the rest on delivery. So it got serious, but I nailed it. Yeah. And they were very happy with it. And then.
And in the meantime, I'm also doing smaller commissions for, you know, just anybody who reaches out to me and says, hey, I really like your work. You know, can you do something like this or that or. I really like this piece.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:16:51.868 - 00:17:07.312
Yeah, I bought a painting from you for my wife because I like your work so much. And she loves it. She loves it. A beautiful, beautiful painting of a red tailed hawk. And she says it, you know, inspires her all the time.
The idea of it rising up on the thermals and everything.
Cody Chamberlain
00:17:07.416 - 00:17:35.772
So that's exactly what it's, you know, people that spend a lot of time in the outdoors, when it really resonates with them, that makes me so, like, that is what it's all about right there. And then they reach out and it's like, absolutely, I can work up some kind of commission or something.
And when people, like, it really resonates with them. Man, that's what kind of keeps me going. That's not what kind of keeps me going.
That's definitely one of the main ingredients for me being happy in this life. So that's great. And I just realized that I was saying that, like, Doug, you just recently commissioned a piece.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:17:35.836 - 00:18:16.054
I did, yes. Yeah. And I mean, I think it's great to see.
You know, I'm a big fan of your art, obviously, and I love how to see how it comes out of, you know, as you said, where you grew up, out by the road, mailboxes in the desert, and the time you spend working for the Forest Service out there. Your art really seems to capture what we see when we're out there. You know, the twisting of juniper roots is how I would describe your work, I think.
And I saw you posted a reel recently on Instagram saying that that's where the art is. You'd have a stick in your hand or something. You're like, the art is out here. This is where. This is where it's at. Right.
Cody Chamberlain
00:18:16.142 - 00:19:28.012
So, yeah, for a long time, I would say, you know, like, the paintings and drawings and mixed media work is a side effect of just spending time in the outdoors, you know, and I really try to spend as much time as possible. I'm. I'm heading out tomorrow.
Like, it's been a really mild winter so far, so I've been able to get out there and hike around without there being too much, you know, without having to strap on the snowshoes or anything like that. But it is. That's where it all comes from, the inspiration. There's no. I'm not reading about it in a book. I'm not dreaming about it.
You know, I'm trying to live it as much as possible. In fact, I would probably produce more art if I could, you know, stay away from wandering aimlessly through the desert or any wilderness area, too.
You know, I kind of fixate on the. The west desert in southern Utah a lot because that's. That's what I know best.
That's where I'm from, and that's what really is, you know, like, I consider home. But, you know, to a lot of people, it might be, you know, the forest in Montana or, you know, who knows, the, you know, Everglades.
Everyone has their own special. So I really like it's all about the wild spaces where you can find them.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:19:28.116 - 00:19:28.748
I love that.
Cody Chamberlain
00:19:28.804 - 00:19:41.080
For me, for me, you know, it's the, it's a lichen on the gray slate out there. You know, it's, it's the juniper roots. That's my go to spot.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:19:41.580 - 00:19:45.760
And why do you know, why does art matter, especially in our current times?
Cody Chamberlain
00:19:47.980 - 00:20:57.740
Well, that's a really good question. Why does art matter in these current times?
I think art has been one of the most single important things we can do throughout human history, let alone now. You know, there's more confusion out there than ever, AI, politically. All these different wars, all this or that.
And it seems more and more we're just kind of locking ourselves into our apartments or homes and just kind of. Well, we are set to work on this system. You know, we're not robots, we're not pre programmed. You know, we, we're of this earth.
And art is the most breakaway, liberating, free thing we can do. It is our imagination.
And if there's anything humans have probably more than anything else, at least that we know of in the universe, it's imagination. That right there is gonna, you know, break the daily grind.
You know, I'm gonna run to this shop, go to work, go to Starbucks, go sit in my apartment, buy this, buy that. You know, we always have, you know, our escape.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:20:58.080 - 00:20:59.016
Yeah, yeah.
Cody Chamberlain
00:20:59.128 - 00:21:20.830
Remember that. Yeah. I mean, I mean, what, what's life without art? You know, and art is a broad term.
I mean, we're talking music, literature, you know, paintings, poetry, you name it, you know, any, any kind of like that taps into our psyche and our imagination. Like that is what makes us us.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:21:21.690 - 00:21:35.650
Yeah. And you find it, I think, and for you, you find it out there in the wild, Right.
I remember hearing a interview with Bjork once where she said she composed songs. Just hiking up onto the top of a mountain and wandering around. You know, Wordsworth did the same with poems, right? Wandered around.
Cody Chamberlain
00:21:35.770 - 00:24:15.100
Absolutely.
Well, I think, you know, the, the great thing about like the west desert and Utah, Southern Utah, Utah as a whole, the Great Basin, Colorado Plateau is when you're out there, you know, obviously it drastically cuts down on all that confusion that I just talked about. And it kind of, it doesn't kind of. It definitely forces you to look inner. You know, you are out there. There's not a lot of noise.
You are there with your own thoughts right there. And what do you have? Your imagination. And then you really start to notice everything.
And you, you really tap into that and you're like, you know, and you start to probably rewire and definitely re. Engage with some of those synapses that are just on autopilot or not being engaged all in our daily grind.
That's what's so important about wilderness right there. It's like I compare it to having a blank canvas or a blank piece of paper to a painting or drawing.
What are you going to do if you don't have that base? Somewhere to start from, somewhere to remind you what we branch off from, what we have to work with.
Can you imagine a world where we just don't have any wild space at all? The wild space we have is a park in the back of a mall or something like that. That. That's a really. That's. That's hell. That's.
That is what I would consider to be hell to me, right there. I don't think we're gonna get. I'm hopeful. I don't think we're gonna get there.
I think before it gets to that point, people are gonna be like, whoa, there's gonna be huge, you know, a huge breakdown or something happening before we get quite to that point right there. But it could get worse before it gets better. I don't know.
I'd like to think that I'm trying to fight the fight that, you know, get people engaged with the outdoors. You know, this. This commission piece that I just did for the state, it's in a. It's in a, you know, a huge, beautiful office building.
But, like, office building people are going there to do office stuff, to work that capacity. And, you know, I think it's great that now they have this huge sliver of Utah wilderness staring them in the face every day.
Everyone that comes through that building. Yeah, that's. That's my protest. That's my, you know, that's my way to educate. That's my voice right there. And it.
People, while they were doing the install, were stopping, like, what's going on here? It was already shocking to them. It's in such contrast. I thought this is the best place for it.
This is where it's going to do the most work is, you know, engaging with people that are probably overworked. And it's in the middle of downtown Salt Lake City. You know, it's. It's mixing it up a little bit.
And a lot of people that normally wouldn't think or see those kind of things right there are going to see it all the time.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:24:15.480 - 00:24:37.670
I love that.
I really like what you were saying before, though, about, you know, about it being hell if we don't have these wild spaces that they really are connected to, you know, without the ability to escape the algorithms, even more so now. Right. In society and everything else, without these spaces where we can think clearly, we kind of lose something of the human in ourselves, right?
Cody Chamberlain
00:24:38.210 - 00:25:18.420
Absolutely. I mean, well, Stegner's wilderness letter, you know, probably sums it up the best right there is. You know, we need these wild spaces. You know, it is.
It reminds us that we are human and allows us to engage with that. We would be. We would be lost if we didn't have that, you know, home plate to start with right there. Where would home even be?
Where would be where we came from if we didn't have any of these wild spaces? We wouldn't know. We'd just be floating, cut off from, you know, who we are. That's a good way to put.
We'd be cut off from who we are as humans without those spaces.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:25:18.920 - 00:25:41.830
I love what you said in a recent. And by the way, Cody does some really great. You have a great social feed as well. A lot of good stuff on there.
Art itself, I think, in some of your posts. But in a recent post, you said, like a coyote that is always hungry and never satisfied. I long for a desert with no end.
What do you find in the desert? What is it that it's out there that's so important? How can we keep it that way?
Cody Chamberlain
00:25:42.210 - 00:27:27.480
I find my life source. Everything is to be found out there. Like we talked about before, it's all my. It's the main draw for my inspiration.
That's my connection to wilderness and how we can protect it. You know, I wish there was this one single way I could say right now, this is exactly what we need to do to protect it.
Just the word protect differs from person to person so much in all these different ways. So I think the best way we can do it is exactly what we're doing right now.
You're engaging with people that want to protect in a fashion that you think aligns with your values. And you're connecting with me. I'm connecting with you. We'll connect with listeners.
I do my artwork so I can connect and give that message of learning to live with our ecosystem, you know, not owning it so much, but learning to live with it in a sustainable fashion. And that's obviously going to change with, you know, our cultural values and population size and everything else. But of course it's going to change.
It's like everything else. It's always in motion and we've got to Educate others probably more than anything else, and keep up the good fight.
It's exhausting sometimes to go over some of these same issues. You know, I listen to the news and it blows my mind that they're talking about some of the same things that 20 years ago you might.
It might as well just be the same thing, you know, when they're speaking to environmental issues. Yeah, but that's what we need, you know, just that repetition.
Dive in, you know, roll up the sleeves and you're going to feel better fighting for these wild spaces than just not doing anything. Even as hard as that fight might be. That's what I found myself.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:27:27.900 - 00:27:35.220
Yeah.
And it seems, you know, there's going to be even more and more pressure on Wildlands, right, for them to be developed, for them to be sold off, all these dangers.
Cody Chamberlain
00:27:35.300 - 00:27:36.052
So, yeah.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:27:36.116 - 00:27:56.338
When you talk, when you're working with all these volunteer groups, do you feel that there will be, you know, an upsurge against that kind of thing that so many people realize that these places are precious and could be lost? And does that connection really getting their hands dirty in them, does that help them, want to keep them?
Cody Chamberlain
00:27:56.474 - 00:28:23.572
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, they're out there because they want to keep them usually already, and they.
And they realize they need to engage, probably, you know, or they want to engage to help out. I think that it's always going to be a balancing act, and this isn't a fight that's ever going to be won.
And, you know, good, we have wild spaces now. We can all relax and enjoy the outdoors and live our lives. I don't think it's gonna work out that way.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:28:23.676 - 00:28:24.132
Right.
Cody Chamberlain
00:28:24.236 - 00:28:47.870
I think this is a fight that we have to work out as a culture, as a society, different countries, you know, and find that fine balance and just keep within those parameters the best we can. And that requires you to be doing exactly what you're doing, me to be doing, you know, and others to do more.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:28:48.410 - 00:29:12.758
I think one, you know, one thing you see a lot in your art is a connection to ancient cultures, right? Ancient cultures who lived on this land.
And we get an appreciation of that as well as the indigenous people, you know, who still lay claim to this land, who it was taken from them. And in most cases, how do we find. How can you respect that in the artwork you're doing and in. When we visit these places, when I.
Cody Chamberlain
00:29:12.814 - 00:30:41.468
Capture any kind of aspects of that in my artwork, which lately there's been a lot of rock art in some of these commissions.
I don't own any of that for myself, I try to explain where that was in a very, like, respectful fashion of maybe what culture that was, you know, and I'm never giving away locations or anything like that to any sensitive cultural sites. And, and I mean, if I'm, if I'm out there hiking around, you know, the, the west desert or southern Utah, how could you not engage with this?
Yeah, it's, you know, there's, there's, there's signs everywhere of past civilizations and current civilizations, you know, right there. So, you know, it's not like something I could just not engage with at all. And certainly I, I'm, I'm not.
I, I'm fully aware of appropriating anything, you know, any kind of that. I don't. I try my best to do that.
I have a background in archaeology, so I do have some expertise with how to, you know, respectfully be in these places or not be in them because, you know, everyone isn't welcome everywhere. That's. That's also something some people might think. So I certainly don't.
You know, I mean, I want to know where I'm going, who that might affect, you know, who is living in the area and the history of the area. I just, I try not to go traipsing around blindly without any respect to others.
I want to take in all these factors, and most of the time I'll probably agree with what I should do or shouldn't do or other people think I should do.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:30:41.604 - 00:31:02.880
I saw in one of your reels, you did something that I thought was really powerful, and I found it really powerful to do myself, was you showed a arrowhead and you drew it, and then you said you were going to, you know, put it back. And I've experienced that too, when I've, you know, I found these.
When I first found these things, you want to keep them, and then you realize that there's so much more power to leaving them in that place. But it's a hard thing to teach people to do.
Cody Chamberlain
00:31:03.740 - 00:33:00.250
It is, I guess, you know what? It is hard. And so did you notice how I drew the. The half that was missing or tried to.
I guess that was my way of being selfish because I didn't leave the drawing.
So, you know, it's that old saying, take a photo, you know, or, you know, I, I take, you know, video photo, this or that in a respectful fashion and not to give away locations or to damage anything or unreasonably disturb anything. But, oh, yeah, like, I drew that. It was such a cool piece that I'm like, oh, yeah, this is unique. I'm drawing like, you know, we've got to.
I've got to at least draw this. And, you know, the sun was setting. I'm out in the desert. Kick back, draw it, enjoy it, and leave it. What am I going to do with it? What?
You know, we all have this need. It's a fundamental need that when a lot of people get to the desert, they want to just grasp it, take anything, grab a rock, grab a juniper.
People are decorating their front yards with these junipers and stuff like that. That's fine and dandy for the next 10, 20, 30, 40 years, however long that person's alive.
But people, including myself, really need to start thinking, like, long term, what is that? That's going to be, you know, somebody's going to bulldoze over that.
Or your collection of whatever you've been taking is going to be lost to, you know, so it might go to a couple grandkids here and there.
Eventually this is going to end up, you know, in a cardboard box, probably going right back to the state or somewhere, going like, I don't know what to do with this. You know, lost where? Where? Or a fire or something like that where. You know, in hindsight, you're like, man, I should have just left that.
It would still be sitting right there, just in context, fine as can be. And that's just something I always have to remind myself right there, like, what am I gonna do with it? I'm not gonna be here for that much longer.
You know, my art is what I'm trying to, you know, take and make, live forever. And all I have to do is see or be exposed or hear about some of these things.
And I can transfer that right to something that doesn't disturb the outdoors.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:33:00.670 - 00:33:16.320
I think you transform. When I look at your art, you really transform. One of the things I like about your artwork is how you really meld and transform things together.
You know, wildlife, trees, the sky even. You get that motion of everything working together. In some of the pieces, like best.
Cody Chamberlain
00:33:16.360 - 00:33:31.340
Of yours, it's the ceaseless movement of the desert. You know, I think one of my favorite Edward Abbey lines is like, everything changes, everything's in motion.
Something about, you know, 700 tumbleweeds blown over the edge. I'll be back before you know it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:33:31.880 - 00:33:32.940
That's great.
Cody Chamberlain
00:33:33.560 - 00:34:24.669
Yeah. Stuck with me, you know, and, you know, even the artwork, it's.
Sure the paintings might be around for a thousand years, I don't know how long, but people are inspired and they're Educated by a lot of my work. And then they're going to pass that along to other people. And again, it's that. It's that rock in the pond theory of, like.
It's not even about the artwork itself in the end. It's about the experiences and people passing that from person to person. And it grows exponentially way beyond. And it's infinite.
As long as people around and I've already started some kind of conversation initially, it grows. Love it a little. Might be hard to notice. It's not going to happen in our lifetime, but whatever. Tumbleweeds over the edge.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:34:26.129 - 00:34:38.073
Do you think a lot in time that way, when you're looking at ancient sites and thinking about how your art may continue or not continue or how we as people in society continue or.
Cody Chamberlain
00:34:38.081 - 00:36:00.080
Not continue, that's one of the best, you know, most fascinating parts about, you know, seeing a projectile point or a pueblo cliff dwelling or any of these places. Like, wow, there was. I mean, sometimes when I'm out there, I just think of people's experiences, you know, and prehistory.
There was somebody who probably stood right here a thousand years ago, 10,000 years ago, 500 years ago, you know, all throughout time, stood right here and looked at the same sunset that I'm looking at right now, now. And they grew up here. Their. Their parents probably died right over there, or their kids were born right over there.
And that's just nothing but light in the sky now. And that's everywhere, all around us, you know, especially out here in the West.
And if people just, like, appreciated that, you don't even need to find any kind of artifact or something. It's everywhere. Everywhere somebody could stand.
I guarantee somebody's been out there and looked at, you know, and felt that same feeling that you're feeling right there. And that connection throughout time right there, and the feeling of loss, but also that connection mixed together again, that's a very human.
That's what keeps me fighting is the goosebumps that forms for some people. That is, I think, why I'm here, or at least I'm going to make it why I'm here.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:36:00.780 - 00:36:14.170
Yeah, I like that. I mean, I feel that in the west, quite often, that feeling of both loss and permanence at the same time. Right. How. How is being out there so much?
How is. How has the desert changed you the more time you spend out there?
Cody Chamberlain
00:36:15.110 - 00:37:03.190
Just listen to me ramble on. It's.
It's obviously had a great effect, you know, and then, like, you know, being raised out there, more or less in the sage and junipers and everything like that. I think through my formative years really kind of planted the seeds of conservation and being inspired by these places and I rely on them now.
You know, I've tried to move other places, you know, earlier in life and do other things. It didn't work out.
I have to be, you know, within driving distance to my bug out spots to keep semi sane or semi crazy, you know, and it, and it, you know, it fuels the artwork. I've made it. I don't know how I could extract it from my life at this point. I don't think it'd be possible.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:37:03.730 - 00:37:14.750
Are there any recent epiphanies or some of those moments you've had out there that are just where you get the feels, where you get the goosebumps, you get the spiritual connection.
Cody Chamberlain
00:37:15.570 - 00:38:53.274
There's a lot of them. Let me try to pull. I mean, I just recently revisited some of my favorite junipers. There's all these flowing dunes out in this particular spot.
I mean, flowing dunes. It's over 70 miles of just rolling sand dunes. And then you get up on these little desert mountains with these rock pinnacles and stuff.
And then you have these just probably ancient junipers, I don't know, probably 6 to 1,000 years old, 600 to 1,000 years spiraling out of these weird little. And they're all very unique because the conditions out there are so harsh. I mean, there's sand and there's rock and some. That's about it.
And they have to make do.
And the sands always moving and over time that the dunes passing through or under them and stuff, really, you know, they've adapted with it, but they're not quite as fast as the sand move, so leaves them in these unusual positions, you know. And I, I swear they look like they're in a state of longing. They're, they're like reaching for the sky. They're trying to say something.
It's like being in an ancient, like, you know, sculpture garden and just being up there on those and then looking down on the sand and seeing like porcupine tracks. And I'm already an ox. I'm taking pictures of these trees. I'm in my happy place. And then I look down and there's a coyote. Watch. Boom.
It's like I felt like myself watching myself. It was, it was great. And he was just watching me. He was like, what is this weirdo doing?
But we had a moment and you know, that was probably one of the last, like. And that was only four, five, six Days ago. But that was probably, you know, that stood out. It's like, yeah, he knows. He knows something.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:38:53.442 - 00:39:09.870
That's amazing. Looking into the future, you know, as someone who both works in policy and works in the imagination, how do you think we can.
We can move forward and ensure that people in wilderness can kind of exist together?
Cody Chamberlain
00:39:10.890 - 00:40:08.250
Well, I love that you said, like, policy right there, because that's what a lot of. And I'm guilty of this, you know, artist type.
People are in their heads, they're dreaming a lot, and they have like, you know, I want to do this or do that, and people should.
But when it comes down to is changing policy, it is, you know, legislators and, you know, state laws, federal laws, voting, engaging, becoming an activist, an attorney.
All these other jobs that might pull you away from constantly doing your artwork or, you know, living in the wilderness and enjoying it is fundamental, you know, to these positive changes and this cultural shift. I think we need to do.
We need to do the boring, hard work of policy, you know, education, going into these different jobs that we can shape and sculpt and educate.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:40:08.910 - 00:40:10.250
That's fantastic.
Cody Chamberlain
00:40:11.950 - 00:41:33.316
I try to do it the most I can within the circle of the Forest Service and representing the U.S. forestry Service. And then my artwork, I can kind of break loose too. And I try not to.
It's like, I have friends that are not environmentalists by any means, and I call them friends just because I choose to engage with them. Because how are we going to change anybody's minds if we constantly, like, polarize ourselves?
Like, whoa, you know, I'm a Democrat or I'm a Republican, or I'm an environmentalist, you know, I understand there's people with views out there that are horrifying to me, obviously, you know, and they're totally different in mine. But if we just put up this wall and be like, I'm not gonna even deal with those people. I don't care if they appreciate my art. I do care.
That's where it's gonna count the most, is like, yeah, I don't agree with you on this. You definitely don't agree with me on that, but I bet ya we can agree on this. You know, I caught. I call it like my Utah code switching a little bit.
I'm environmentalist with the cowboy hat. I'm out there for everyone to enjoy, you know, and. And I'll.
I'll engage with, you know, whatever side just so we can find some common ground of appreciation, you know, I mean, what else can we do? Love it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:41:33.388 - 00:41:42.160
Well, that kind of leads into the final question that I kind of ask everyone on this podcast is pretty simple. It is just, what gives you hope?
Cody Chamberlain
00:41:43.390 - 00:44:06.642
What gives me hope? You know, just yesterday, a friend reached out to me. They are an architect teaching at the University of Utah, a design course.
And they said, hey, we're going to have some final project presentations for this fundamental design class, and I would really like to get, like, an artist point of view on things, you know, and he invited a couple other architects, and then I guess I was the painter that was going to give my input.
And we were talking to groups, and this lasted for about two hours of two students, for about a half hour at a time, and going over and listening to about, you know, what their project was. And there were all these sculptural pieces. But of course, I was like, yeah, yeah, school works fine. What do you want to do in life?
What do you want to do? You know, we start talking about art and, you know, all their, you know, like, they want to be architects, designers, this or that.
And I kept noticing, like, these kids are. They're. They're happy, and they're, like, really doing some awesome, like, experimental work right now. Things that, like, I re engaged me.
It's like, I need to get back to some of the fundamentals. This is great stuff, you know, don't fall into a pattern where you're just doing the same thing over and over again, you know, re engaging with that.
But the hope that I got was just in their faces. And, like, they're not, like, as bummed out about politics or the environment as I am, that's for sure. And they're up and coming. That's great.
You know, and it's like, oh, this is a cycle. This is a. You know, if life's hard, we can get burned out all we want, Doug, you know, but there.
There are future generations that are, you know, prepared to take up the torch. And, you know, and I, like. I guess I felt like some kind of creative vampire because, like, wow, I'll be positive, too.
Let me feed off of some of this. This is great. I walked away from that feeling better than I have, you know, definitely.
Then listening to the news or keeping informed or this or that, I was like, holy smokes.
This was like, this was the front line coming up, and they're passionate about what they're doing, and they're very artistic and, you know, talented, you know, students. Rock and roll. We're not in this alone, and it's not the end.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:44:06.826 - 00:44:25.424
Love it. Love it. Well, Cody, I want to thank you so much for joining me and talking.
And before we go, though, I'd like you to let people I know I'm a big fan of your work and obviously have, you know, bought some of it. I'd like you to let listeners know how they can see and then possibly commission or buy some of your work.
Cody Chamberlain
00:44:25.602 - 00:44:57.110
So, you know, again, it's most people just finding my stuff online through like social media, Facebook or Instagram or my website. You can usually just Google Cody Rex Chamberlain art. A website will pop up.
You can find me on Instagram @codychamberlainart, something along those lines.
And then people will just scroll through my work and send me a message saying, hey, I don't know how to, you know, buy your work, but I really like this piece. And then we start a conversation. We can take it from there. So figure out what's right for them.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:44:57.730 - 00:44:59.962
Fantastic. Thanks so much, Cody.
Cody Chamberlain
00:45:00.026 - 00:45:01.230
Hey, thank you, Doug.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:45:03.170 - 00:45:25.140
Thanks for imbibing open container production of Rock Fight llc.
Please take a second to follow our show on whatever podcast app you're listening to and send your emails and feedback to myrockfightmail.com our producers today were David Karstad and Colin Trish. Art direction provided by Sarah Gensert. I'm Doug Schnitzbahn. Get some. Thanks for listening.