Headlines on THE ROCK FIGHT (an outdoor podcast that aims for the head)!
Colin starts the show (01:03) with his take on how REI's recently announced vendor of the year awards only show how boring they've become and the risk they're taking by trying to become everything to everyone. Justin and Producer Dave then weigh in on what REI can do to get their mojo back.
Then the crew hits the following topics:
In a surprise bombshell that dropped this past Saturday Camber Outdoors has announced that they are closing in August. What does that mean for diversity, equity and inclusion in the outdoor industry? (22:34)
On Deckers recently quarterly earnings call they reported that Hoka continues their meteoric growth. Why is Hoka crushing so hard? (33:00)
The biggest threat to high mountain outdoor enthusiasts isn't altitude or avalanches...it's marmots. (39:45)
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Episode Transcript
Colin (00:00):
Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True. Coming up, Justin Haman and I are going to talk about the surprising news to break over this weekend about Camra Outdoors shutting down Hoka, continuing to defy the odds and how they're growing and the proper way to wrap up your car to prevent a rodent attack. That's after today's open where I take a hard look at the state of REI. Oh, and don't forget guys, producer Dave's here too. But before we get to that, a few housekeeping items. I saw you leaning in. Please follow and rate the rock fight wherever you're listening on any podcast app, we really need you to leave that five star rating. It really helps to show out. Send us your feedback by sending an email to my rock fight@gmail.com. And if you're an Apple Podcast listener, please leave us a written review and if you do, send a screenshot of your review to my rock fight@gmail.com and we'll send you a rock fight and gear and beer sticker. Do all that stuff for us. We do all this for you. Alright, let's start the show.
(01:03):
This past week REI announced their vendor partner of the year awards and this is something they hand out annually and in their words is given to brands who significantly impact aspects of their business over the past year. Personally, I honestly can't remember the last time I read anything good happening at REI between their union busting stance, their financial struggles and criticisms about where they're planning to open new doors, there seems to be less goodwill extended to REI than there used to be and I've never been a huge REI fan, but even still they seem to carry an outdoor authenticity when I look at them as a consumer. Then other sporty goods chain stores didn't or couldn't carry, but that might be changing. Last week on the show retailer, west Allen cited some new statistics of how the rising growth in more casual outdoor participants combined with the decline of more core participants as noted in the O'S annual participation report is benefiting specialty retailers in places like Dick's Sporting Goods and potentially hurting a shop like REI.
(02:04):
And like I said, in that same episode, which I'll link at the show notes, this makes sense to me. I may not have been a big REI fan historically, but I like their stores and I've spent plenty of money at REI over the years. There was definitely a time when I would've gone to REI, given the choice between them and maybe going to Dick's or Academy Big Five or any other sporting goods store that carried a decent assortment of outdoor stuff, even including the more hunt and fish focus shops like Cabela's and Best Pro and maybe it's more fun to shop at a specialty shop, but REI still had the outdoor shop vibe more than any of the other places I just mentioned. There was also a sense of you can't find this stuff at Sports Authority when it comes to REI also RIP, the Sports Authority.
(02:49):
We miss you guys out there. This has changed though for one reason I feel like this is because the industry is leveled out. Technical proficiency and outdoor products just really isn't special. It's the norm. If you listen to our Gear and Beer podcast, Sean McCoy said as much from Gear Junkie that there's an expectation that stuff just works. Now before, if you go to REI, the products were mostly what you'd find at a specialty shop compared to the lesser than bargain brand stuff you'd find at a general sporting goods store. And I feel like this was also proven on the trail too. There was an association with what the stuff you would buy at an REI versus a big box sporting good store. If I saw anyone out hiking and Under Armour apparel and Nike sneakers, they kind of outed themselves as not being legit outdoor.
(03:32):
Clearly they weren't shopping at a place like REI and now that gap is closed for one thing, big outdoor brands, they sell all of their stuff to the sporting goods stores so there's nothing really special about the assortment anymore and the cheap stuff at any stores we're talking about that performs better than it used to. Are there products and categories that you only find at REI that you won't find at other more general sporting goods shops? Sure, of course, but not many. You'll find niche stuff like climbing gear and back country expansions to snow sports and things like that. Maybe they don't have skis out of dick's, but there's a lot of the same stuff in both shops now. But even then these more core outdoor sports aren't part of i's growth plan. This past spring it was reported how REI is putting its expansion and profitability plan solely on one category and that's run now.
(04:21):
That strategy is sound from the point of view that it's the category that has the most participants continues to grow and continues to have a moment with the expansion of trail and ultra running but also makes REI even more like everyone else. So let's remember that REI was founded by Mountaineers in the northwest. They don't have bronze Nike Air Maxes as the door handles to their shops, they have ice axes, their heritage is an alpinism and they're rapidly cashing in on those legit outdoor chops to be another spot to buy running shoes and synthetic t-shirts. I think they were already the boring player in the outdoor scene but also now really feel, it feels like they're working real hard to join the status quo by playing where everyone else plays. And I say that while also endorsing their run strategy, they should capitalize on run, but it feels like they're taking the path of least resistance rather than go back to what allowed them to gain their clout in our space to begin with their in-house line was once a differentiator for its quality and lower price point against the more premium outdoor brands.
(05:22):
That's pretty much the same with no discernible differences from the name sitting next to them on the shelf and that sort of all leads me back to who they picked as their vendor partners of the year because it was a pretty much a chalk pick in every category. Osprey won vendor of the year, ultra won for footwear, arc TerraX for apparel, big Agnes and hard goods in Petzel and action sports and I suppose that's because of their climbing chops. It's hard to think of REI as a purveyor of action sports products, but my thought when I read all this was like wow, way to go out on a limb. REI, you've been the French vanilla of outdoor stores for a long time, but versatility and differentiation is the hallmark of our outdoor biz. So maybe you take your vendor award and find interesting new products and brands to highlight because losing authenticity is a tough thing to come back from.
(06:10):
Now the last thing I want to mention is that there's also a factor here is that big brands are struggling across the board. Columbia also released numbers last week and all of their brands except for Mountain Hardware were down 8% in Q2. Newell who owns Marmite and Exofficio also reported poor earnings. They were down 18% in Q2 and Mountain Hardware performing well I feel like supports my point because while they are operating above their competition from an inventory point of view, point of view there also, there's one other thing that hardware did this year and that was to invest in its brand and messaging and that work is resonating with consumers. I'd love to see REI look at what someone like Martin Mountain Hardware is doing instead of just trying to become another version of Dick's but also, hey we sell a few more brown boots. So I want to bring in Justin and producer Dave at this point. Justin, what do you think about the theory that the playing field between REI and other big box dealers is leveling out? This is something we explored with West last week. I kind of wanted to get your take on that.
Justin (07:09):
How do we know that it's that and not, I mean well are we talking in person or does online count too?
Colin (07:16):
That's a good question. I think we were talking more about the in-person experience. Wess had cited some statistics he had gotten from some analysts who are looking at where people are shopping and it seemed that there is, and I kind of anecdotally was talking about how there's a dick's closer to my house and I would really would not think twice about going to Dick's for the same reason I think about going to an RE, I
Justin (07:37):
Mean without having any numbers or anything to back it up, I would assume it's got to be more of a brick and mortar versus online than it is an REI versus specialty or versus, I'm sorry, REI versus general big box stores. I mean I haven't been to a Dick's in years but I mean it's a good point if you can get an outdoor research shell at Dick's or at REI why go to REI if you're already going to Dick's to buy your kids a new pair of cleats because in a lot of ways it's probably the same actually I hadn't thought about this before but something like Dick's makes a lot of sense. I mean for a lot of people that are in the sort of casual outdoor category are probably in the casual sports category too and so they need things like whatever Dick's sells, basketballs and footballs and stuff and you lump it all in together. There's less of a reason to go to REI.
Colin (08:27):
You're on the precipice of this there with your kids. You have a 5-year-old and even my 18-year-old, I took her to get new running shoes a few weeks ago and I was just walking around and I'm like, usually you think, oh I'll go to REII want to pick up fuel or I want to pick up a headlamp or some sort of outdoor staple that maybe you misplaced. It's
Justin (08:43):
All that. You can get that at Dick's too. That's interesting.
Colin (08:45):
I mean maybe not all with the depth, their headlamp category probably doesn't have the same depth as going to an REI, but why would I drive to the one in ENC that's 25 minutes away when it's one five minutes
Justin (08:54):
Down street? Well so that's interesting. So locally we have a small chain called Sports Basement here and it's basically sounds like it's a Dick's you. That's where I would go to get anything like a baseball bat if my wife wants, she laps swims so she wants some swim goggles, we go there. But also, yeah, I could go get any backpacking food, any backpacking supplies and honestly it's going to be just as good as the REI That's a great job. Just as
Colin (09:20):
Good.
Justin (09:20):
That's a really great job. And they have rental programs so I can go rent skis and all that sort of stuff and I could buy if I wanted to some Adidas track pants. So in fact I never really went to REI when we lived in San Francisco because Sports Mason was closer and I liked it more and I never felt like it didn't have enough. I mean the thing is I feel like you and me are probably in this core, but we're also in the core participant category. I'm still going to go to an REI before I'd go to something like a Dick's just because I, I'm used to it and it's speaking to me more than a Dick's would be. But I mean as we've seen apparently core participant numbers are down and if you're not core, you don't care about the cache of where you're going and as well you're probably going online first and then so yeah, I mean what I'm wondering now is if does REI start to pare itself down and become more of a cool small indie vibe? It probably started out to be is that what's coming?
Colin (10:18):
That'd be great, wouldn't it? I think that's ultimately what I was getting at with the thing I just went through is it's like all signs point to leaning into the broader audience versus what got brought 'em to the party and it seems like they're the ones who are at the most risk of getting hurt because Wes was talking about there's ways that they can respond on a small level to their shop, this information about what the assortment they bring in, the things they do in their store. They sounds like the specialty shops are in a position where they can do more to kind of evolve with the market versus, and Dick's is going to be Dick's Sporting Goods and sporting goods and if the brands are going to sell all the same stuff to Dick's that they're going to REI, it's kind of like at some point something's going to give and someone's going to decline. Dave, what do you think the point I made about the brand stuff as a guy who spent his career in the brand side of things and doing creative work, the hardware piece of it that was interesting, that's like the one brand we've heard good news about in the last few months except for one we're going to talk about later in the headline section. But I dunno, is there anything that REI could learn from the Martin Hardware search?
Justin (11:20):
Martin Hardware, I love that name.
Colin (11:22):
Martin, do you know Martin Hardware?
Producer Dave (11:25):
Well I have an opinion that, yeah, I think that hardware has done some of the best rebrand work in the space, that it does have a unique feel and energy to it and I think that REI suffers. If you look at all the brands that are down, what they all have in common is that they all sound the same but you can pull imaging and messaging from pretty much any one of those brands, lay 'em out together, mix 'em up and you'd be hard to tell who's who's who. And so I think that does impact this overall trend. I think REI is also fighting some headwinds in terms of just like we said, this changing retail space, changing, buying patterns of where we get our stuff and like you said, if you can get the same shell in three different places, I'm not going to be so, so specific about where I get it. So I do think that that's going on. I think that we did undersell something that Petzel is an absolutely bold choice Colin for a brand of the year. Yeah, I
Justin (12:25):
Was actually thinking that same thing.
Producer Dave (12:27):
Nothing says authentic. That's a climbing brand, like a headlamp brand. So I just absolutely think,
Justin (12:35):
Do we know what does it mean to be the vendor of the years? I mean they sold the most stuff.
Colin (12:42):
It means that they're
Justin (12:43):
The one that they prefer
Colin (12:45):
The brands who significantly impact their aspects of their business.
Justin (12:49):
Well what if no small fun brands did
Colin (12:56):
Then you
Producer Dave (12:56):
Lie, I want to say this but I don't want to say this.
Justin (13:01):
What if it was puff and drink wear? Colin,
Producer Dave (13:06):
That would be amazing. What brands paid the most stocking fees to have their items pushed up on the wall?
Colin (13:13):
Well I think there's some of that too. We do know that REI charges for in-store ing. I mean there are certain, I'm sure there's a lot of criteria. I think it's a valid question though Justin. You're right. I mean what is the criteria here? And Dave, to your point, these aren't bad brands. I understand the choices just to me it immediately resonated with all this other stuff we're talking about with REI and it's like yeah, okay, you're not doing anything other than let me just make sure we give more attention to the brands that people already come here to shop and just it another one element of the challenges I feel
Justin (13:42):
Like with RE, I guess to me it just seems like this is almost inevitable in a certain way. I mean combined with what we've seen from the pandemic, the sort of post pandemic slowdown on virtually every category in the world that had anything to do with people having free time or going outside more. So that's obviously one thing, but two, it just feels like it got big aria. I got so big. Yeah, there's a lot of outdoor participation but it's just like Aria, I guess it just feels like I want my outdoor store to be kind of small and funky and personal and if it's not that then I just don't really have any reason to go there. I guess that's how it seems to me and it just feels like there's probably, I mean there's too many brands as it is. There's too many places to get stuff as it is.
Colin (14:39):
That's it. I guess it's ultimately it just seems like they need to respond in some way, right? Because it might be boring but there's variety there. To your point, okay, your daughter's going to want to play soccer in a year and a half or you're like, oh, and I also need this thing for our camping trip. Great. It's kind of one-stop shopping, they have it all Now what I need for basics, if you go to a Bass Pro, isn't Bass Pro the one that has a giant aquarium in it and it's like it's a cool shopping experience. You walk in, you're like, this is dope. I'm not even a hunter or a fisherman. I just kind of want to hang out with the shop, especially to your point, cool funky outdoor stores. There's a reason there's the community. This is kind of where I as an enthusiast, a core person, I jive with this, why do you go to an RE? I like, so how do you answer that question and right now I think it's getting harder and harder to answer that. Oh you to get your run shoes. Well what if you're able to renegade running in the bay? You're going to go to REI like you going to go
Justin (15:30):
To place. Well, it seems like I get the connection, it's an outdoor sport, but you know what else is basketball or golf? You got to wonder if that's being pitched and meetings, if we put some basketballs in here,
Colin (15:47):
Well is the one that's the most obvious, which probably will end up there and it's pickleball.
Justin (15:52):
Yeah, totally. Or ultimate Frisbee stuff. Frisbee golf stuff or whatever.
Colin (15:57):
I know plenty of outdoorsy folks who play Frisbee golf and that kind of stuff. Yeah,
Justin (16:02):
But you know what Dick's doesn't have is the experiences and that me seems like a cool thing that they're doing well. I also feel like there's opportunities to really lean into, I've talked about this so much in my own work and probably in the podcast to lean into being a third place. I don't know how this works if you're the REI that's in Dallas, I think there is one in Dallas and you're just like, okay, no, I'm sure there is. What are you going to do outdoors there? Hunt. There's not much to do. Trail run I guess there's your runners or your bikes.
Colin (16:37):
Oh man, we're going to get letters from people in
Justin (16:38):
Dallas send them. I mean I'd be stoked if there was wrong but fishing and hunting and running, whatever. But my point is, is that okay? I don't know. I had a funny moment on a family road trip a couple weeks ago where my daughter was car sick and so we decided to pull over to go to Whole Foods. We needed to go to grocery shopping. Anyway, I happened to know that the whole Foods that was nearby had a tap room in it. I hadn't been to it, but I knew they were building a tap room in this Whole Foods. I'm like, well my daughter's sick, she needs to take a break from the car. We can at least pull in and maybe grab a beer or something like that. And so it ended up being, honestly, I don't understand why. It's one of the best tap rooms I've ever been to.
(17:19):
It's super rad. The vibe is great, the selection is wonderful. You can order oysters from the Whole Foods seafood counter and they just bring 'em over to you. Point is though, is I would hang out there anyway. If I lived nearby, I'd probably go get beers there even though it's inside of freaking Whole Foods. So it's like I business is an opportunity for REI to really lean into having, I don't know, a base camp cafe or whatever and you have movies and you have meals wherever you have speaker series or whatever. Really Dick's isn't going to do that or leading into fucking wildlife presentations really own the fact that you are a core outdoor brand and how cool would that be if you could take your kids down someone there's going to be a falcon or that's going to show off some local falcons and you can get some, maybe you're selling the backpacker mules, you prepare 'em or I don't know, something like that. That could be interesting and that'd be way more of a reason for me to go there than to buy something online
Colin (18:25):
To wrap it up because we got to move on. But that's exactly kind of what I was thinking, right? When I read the participation report, my gut was like, this is going to impact specialty retail. This is where the core isn't going to shop at their specialty shops. And then talking with Kelly Davis from the OAA and Wes and hearing actually no that REI might be the one at most risk and then to your exact point, that's exactly what they should be doing. Become invaluable to your community. Like I said, it's Whole Foods. This isn't the local natural grocery store and you're still like, I'd hang out with here. People will get over their biases against the corporations real quick if you make the experience
Justin (18:58):
Real good.
Colin (18:59):
So I think it's exactly, and then you kind of read the terrain of what REI is saying and doing and what are they known for in the last six months? Well, labor issues and union busting going deep into run and awarding these brands. So I think it's a missed opportunity and ultimately they're the ones probably at most risk at it versus anybody. Well, it's time for our weekly segment more with Themore, which is this is our weekly segment presented by Themore, the original ingredient brand that has been providing installation solutions from Middle East since 1972. And Justin, we haven't heard from you in a while and submittal this summer and Europe, as everyone knows in Northern California, we don't need more wild fires or wild, we actually need more wild flowers, not more wildfires, but what is going on in NorCal right
Justin (19:50):
Now? We are blessed for whatever reason this year we're kind of blessed to be out of the smoke pattern.
Colin (19:57):
It's all blowing east.
Justin (19:58):
It's like, yeah, we've definitely been in the teeth of it before, but it's interesting. It's been definitely some insanely hot days, but for the most part we haven't really seen the fires. We haven't really been threatened with fires. There haven't been that close to us, but weirdly the last few days or actually kind of the last week it's been overcast and almost like coastal. It's kind of nice. I mean today actually as I say, this fog is just broken up and it's getting sunny, so it's probably going to be like 99 degrees tomorrow. But
Colin (20:29):
Speaking of fog, it is that time of year where just down the street from you, it's quite chilly.
Justin (20:33):
Yeah, I was in San Francisco yesterday and I don't go to the city as often as I probably should and having lived there for 12 years, I mean it's crazy. It's like 15 miles away, but it's a whole different world and we went in to go to the Golden Park yesterday with the kids and as soon as I get into town I'm like, oh yeah, everyone's in full length parkas and beanies. It's summer in San Francisco and it's the coldest place on the planet and if you haven't experienced it, it's worth doing. I mean it really is. It's this weird psychological thing where it's only like 60 degrees, but because I think your brain is aware that everywhere within a 10 mile radius outside of San Francisco, it's 98, it feels colder. You're just aware that something is different and it shouldn't be like this and it's mind boggling how cold it will feel.
Colin (21:18):
Well, one outdoor brand you don't see in the US all that much that would be good for a cool summer in San Francisco is 66 North and right now you can head to 66 north.com and get ahead of the back to school rush for winter coats and pick up the hela hela. They're an Icelandic brand. I busted a hela which uses Themore Eco down and will keep you warm this upcoming winter. Like we told you before, 100% post-consumer recycled eco down is the sustainable alternative to feathers and is the go-to installation for more casual garments like the 66 North hela. Stay warm using the best installation from Themore this upcoming fall and winter. So you can head to 66 north.com to learn about the hela. You can head to themore.com to learn more about themore and don't forget to do more in the outdoors with
Justin (22:01):
Themore. I wonder how you actually pronounce hela.
Colin (22:03):
Dave is our resident 66 North expert. He's going to come on and tell us how we pronounce Hela
Producer Dave (22:08):
Hela.
Justin (22:09):
No way. I refuse to. It's got to be like,
Producer Dave (22:12):
Oh, I'm sure it's, I'm sure it's my Iceland.
Colin (22:15):
There's there's a y, there's
Producer Dave (22:17):
Somewhere, right? So do you have a runway in specific that you're going to be wearing your hela jacket on? That would be my question to you. Awfully
Justin (22:26):
A
Producer Dave (22:26):
Runway. Yeah, awfully fashion. It's quite stylish. Yeah, it is very stylish. You
Colin (22:29):
Can only wear it with moon boots apparently. That's how you have to,
(22:34):
Let's run through some headlines. We're going to start off with the bombshell that dropped per SGB just this past Saturday. According to their board and leadership, Canberra Outdoors will cease operations next month in August of 2024, founded in 1996 as the Outdoor Industry Women's Coalition and then rebranded in 2016 to Canberra Outdoors. It's a nonprofit organization to quote equip partner organizations to implement best practices in workplace diversity, equity and inclusion. According to the SGB report, the reason for their closure is continued industry headwinds combined with the fact that outdoor industry companies are moving beyond the focus workplace tools that Camber traditionally provided. That's a quote directly from the article. Obviously a big blow for an industry that still has both gender and race diversity issues. I'm going to have Theresa Baker on the podcast this week. We're going to be talking to her, Justin, and so we'll be able to get deeper into this as we learn more, but I wanted to at least get our instant reactions to this news.
(23:29):
I dunno, it kind of gets hard to put DEI in the outdoor industry as the same place as sustainability and greenwashing. The positive is a POV, the positive point of view being that brands know they need to do more to make the world a better place given their constituency and the cynical view being a lot of lip service to keep consumers off the scent that your good intentions aren't sincere. I dunno. Where do you guys land on this? This is sort of a, we don't know a lot yet about what exactly is going on behind the scenes, but it definitely seems like a blow.
Justin (23:57):
Was Camber basically just like a consulting agency? I mean is that what they did? You hired them to come in and I mean I know Canberra Outdoors, but I mean if you're a brand, you basically hired them to come in and kind of run your DEI program. Is that more or less how that
Colin (24:12):
Worked? Yeah, so they deliver resources to their partners, which assuming are mostly outdoor brands at the leadership levels so that the employees are reading from their website can enact systematic systemic organizational change and organizations can reach their full potential for workplace.
Justin (24:26):
I guess my first thought is that, I mean the same way that a struggling brand, the first thing they'll do is cut marketing budget. I mean, I just wonder if this is just a symptom of brand struggling overall. This probably doesn't seem like something that necessarily is, it probably seems like a luxury rather than a necessity for a brand that might be treading water or even taking on water. That's the first thing I would think of or that they were just successful enough to where brands hired their own DEI officers and they don't need to cameras help anymore, but I suspect it was probably the more of the just trying to cut budget.
Producer Dave (25:06):
Look, the industry has changed a lot. There's a lot more awareness of the necessity of some of these issues, so some of the trainings maybe that were being done in the past we're just kind of about bringing these issues to the surface at brands so that they could understand and start to take them on. So that's one element that's probably not as needed In the same way, I think there is an awareness, however, implementation is the issue. It's still not being followed through with, like you said, brands are cutting these resources from their own companies, so if there's not a third party to fill in and they're cutting their own staffs, now we see the cause for an alarm. I also think that it's just more of a signal that the industry, they're not supporting this. It's the same thing with some of the other, if industry doesn't support these issues collectively, then it just signals that it's not important to the industry and I think that's a bigger issue. Just what message does that send?
Colin (26:09):
Yeah, I think that's where I think all that's correct. I did reach out to Darren Josie who's been on the pod before. David and I have worked with him before. His company first seed sewn supports Bipoc founders and he's been very involved in this space. He commented there was a wave of positions and resources created after the 2020 social justice movement in the wake of the murders of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor among others. But it's really regressed because to that point, Justin, you're right, positions and departments have been quietly eliminated a lot of that due to some of the challenges like we were just talking about even in our REI conversation at the top of the show. But I mean, I guess the thing I come back to here is to Dave's point, you should be maybe loudly eliminating them and at least bringing attention to why and what your plans are to continue this work. I mean, this is an ongoing problem in the outdoor space of it's very white and male dominated and if we're going to continue to see real change here, it's like, well, understanding that there's the tyranny of business, but you also, what are you going to do instead of just hope you don't get called out for making
Producer Dave (27:10):
These changes? Also, just more of something to hide behind. The tyranny of business also shows that businesses that are more diverse and that actively try to get different viewpoints within their decision-making do better. I mean I think that's something now that is just a fact. So maybe some of our struggles as an industry are related to, we're talking to ourselves in the same way. In the same way we always have and until we really start to understand the importance of distinction and broader viewpoint, we're going to continue to struggle.
Colin (27:46):
That's why I made the correlation between sustainability and that's the stuff that I'm always going on and on about the sustainability front is the brands who are like, oh, we're talking about how great we are and look at these things we're doing, but then not actually doing the extra work to make it greener, right? It's just like they want the good coverage when it suits them and we're just not going to talk about the dirtier side of our business.
Producer Dave (28:05):
Colin, we issued a press release. We have it all under control.
Colin (28:10):
I do want to read a quote from the article that from the CEO of Camber, Tiffany Smith, and this is what she said, I believe in relation to the announcement that they're shutting down, we are incredibly proud of the progress made over nearly three decades. The landscape of DEI and the outdoor industry has transformed dramatically and it has been an honor to be a part of this journey. We celebrate the growth of numerous grassroots and industry-wide organizations that Canberra worked closely with that are now leading DEI efforts from the Outdoor Industry Association, people for Bikes outdoor, Afro Latino outdoors to the Running Industry Diversity Coalition. These groups and others are driving significant change. Our legacy is the vibrant network of organizations and leaders now championing this cause I mean if you pay attention, there are many more groups that are trying to get more and more folks into the outdoor. Another podcast that Dave and I made, we had Earl Hunter from black folks camp too. These things that are happening all over the place. But I just want to ask you guys from and honestly acknowledging that this is from three white men on a podcast and is it a podcast if there aren't three white men on it, I guess is really the question. But do we agree that the landscape has changed dramatically? Does it feel like it has
Justin (29:21):
Landscape? In what way?
Colin (29:23):
The diversity landscaping. We were to set outdoor retailer smaller. Yeah, but when
Justin (29:26):
You say landscape, what are you talking about? Are you talking about the people we actually see outdoors or are you talking about media representation? Are you talking about all of that?
Colin (29:33):
I think all of that, I mean Tiffany's point was the landscape of DEI and the outdoor industry has transformed
Justin (29:37):
Dramatically. I would say anecdotally, yes. I mean at least in sense of what I've seen, what advertising looks like, what marketing efforts look like. I mean that to me seems wildly different than it did even 10 years ago. So I would say yes, but I don't know. But I don't know about behind the scenes. I don't know about statistics at brands, I don't know about employment numbers, I don't know about that kind of stuff. But in terms of if you just walk into an REI, for example, or walk into, if you had been put in a time machine and it went from 1995 to today and saw what the outdoor industry ads and stuff looked like, you think it'd be a massive sea change, completely different. And I think that even conversations that you have with people about things like what people's outdoor experiences should be like or can be like and a broader opening of that sort of conversation, that's changed a lot too, where it used to be you can be frowned upon to say that the outdoors are for everybody because there was rules that we had in place and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
(30:48):
But now it feels like it's kind of the norm to just be way more open and accepting of anybody wanting to go outdoors for any reason, I suppose, unless we're talking about side-by-sides and ATVs because nobody will ever be happy with those folks. But you know what I mean? It just feels like that. I would say yes in a lot of ways things have changed in a giant way, but I don't know. That's just from what I've seen,
Colin (31:12):
This is something to make sure we bring up with Theresa this week and not to tease our audience and say, make sure you come back for the second part of this conversation, but come back for the second part of this conversation with Theresa Baker. I think because right, I think on the face obviously it's different, but that's also, is that just things are, take a cynical point of view. Is it just, are we just marketing it better? Are we marketing it to a broader audience? And I would guess, and again, it's a guess, I'm not throwing any accusations around, but if you took a look behind the scenes at most outdoor brands, it's still pretty white is what I
Producer Dave (31:39):
Would guess. Yeah, I think this is a difference. Representation and opportunity, right? Clearly we're starting to understand the importance of representing a diverse group of people to be more welcoming to this space and to try to have folks see themselves represented in what they can do and aspire to and participate in. But is that translating to opportunities within the industry itself, leadership opportunities, even entry level, because that should be the fruits of representation. We should start to be able to see people understand that there's opportunities to make careers within this and that can become a real thing too. So it's an important step. Just not sure that it's moved to the opportunity phase. And I do think groups like Chamber and these kind of very classic kind of outdoor consultancy aspect is still important. There's still a need for it. So I guess that's the not simple answer to a not simple question with a pretty right or wrong aspect to it.
Colin (32:45):
Well, we'll have to keep an eye. I'm sure we'll learn more about this in the coming days. I don't think anybody expected us to come or and landed everybody's lap on Saturday. And like I said, we'll talk to Theresa about it. We'll definitely be reporting more on this as we learn. Next story. It does seem that there's at least one brand other than Mountain Hardware that is thriving in our over inventoried outdoor and athletic world these days. This past week. Puffin, what is it?
Justin (33:09):
Puffin,
Colin (33:09):
Puffin, drinkware crushing it out there. Everybody the most authentic outdoor brand of all time. No. This past week, parent company Deckers announced quarterly earnings for the running footwear brand Hoka and came in way ahead of projections and in fact had Hoka up 29%. They also mentioned that UG is up 14%. So good on you Ugg, but focusing on Hoka, this thing's an absolute rocket ship in a category that is also a rocket ship, like I talked about in the open running is kind of a safe bet for retailers and brands and apparently Hoka is the safe bet for the choice of consumers. Personally, I have to think this is some sort of the level of the maturity of the cool new kids like Ultra is also performing very well apparently. And both Hoka and Ultra now over 10 years old. As of the news, as of late for Nike and Adidas, they've had their own PR problems.
(33:57):
They're maybe kind of looking a little bit older and tired in the running category on, I look at as sort of the brand du jour. But if you look at product reviews, it doesn't seem that it's ruing with runners like Hoka does. It's probably seems a little more fashion driven. I want to get into the brand side, Dave, I want to ask you about that, but Justin, I just kind of want to start with you because you just recently bought a pair of Hokas. When you went to buy a pair of trail running shoes, what drew you to Hoka? The Hoka Ma, instead of going to a Brooks or an Asics or some sort of more established run brand, was there something specific about it or was there, I just want to try that out?
Justin (34:31):
Good question. Honestly, they look like they work. They just look like they work like the big thick souls.
Colin (34:40):
That's a great answer.
Justin (34:43):
Kind of the color vibe that I see people with 'em on the trail, they just look like they work. I mean, that's not saying that Brooks don't, but every time I've ever seen a pair of hookers, I've thought, I bet those are comfortable to run in every single time just looking at 'em. That really is it. That's as simple as that.
Colin (34:59):
You, there's something about, there is a shelf appeal where you could tell it's a running shoe. It doesn't look like a hiking shoe or something. It's a running shoe, but it doesn't look like a Pegasus or an Asics or a brokerage. It looks that much different.
Justin (35:11):
It looks like there's a reason to try it. It looks like there's a reason to try it. I mean it really does come down to that. I mean, you can't overlook the fact that everybody seems to wear them so clearly they must work, but that really does. It is simple as that.
Colin (35:28):
Dave, is that kind of the answer? Is that what you think right there? Well,
Producer Dave (35:31):
There's definitely a couple forces here, but let's start on that one. It's just kind of preparing notes for this. It's exactly the same thing that 66 North is bringing to the party. They have a clear design language that you just cannot miss. And I think you just described it really well there, just in it, they look like they work, right? It's not just about big and comfy. The running credibility aspect layers onto that color is also such a strong driver of preference. Totally. And they have led color. They've almost flipped the script a bit in terms of who leads the apparel or the footwear in terms of color kind of direction. And I feel like that's been a big part of, again, their language of what makes a Hoka Hoka, those, I'm calling muted brights or vivid matte colors. You can tell from a far away, that is a Hoka piece from its color and from like you said, the fact that it just looks luggy and comfortable and it's going to work what I call it.
(36:33):
It's a statement of authenticity and credibility through their running and then their comfort and color are fashionable. So you put those together and that really creates kind of this broader movement. But before you get to that, Colin, you're talking about the maturity of the category. Definitely. That's a part of what we're seeing. People are kind of a little tired of their choices, but let's be clear, Nike had some unforced errors that really allowed brands like Hoka and on to come in. They really overs skewed and really relied on their classics business and sportswear all about their kind of retro vintage product. They gave up specialty placement for their D two C strategy and that really allowed brands like Ho and on to come in and as well as the other running brands and get shelf space that wasn't available to them now. And so now Ho has been able to build a core running brand off of this that they have always leaning into specialty and leaning into race day.
(37:32):
They're a competitive running brand. They have athletes, they focus a lot on that, but it's not such kind of over competitive that it can't be relatable. There's definitely a balance between the running enthusiast, the competitive athlete, and this everyday relatability active comfort kind of lifestyle. And to me, this, they've really hit on all three sides and Nike kind of gave them the entry and they've just consolidated on it. I think that's what you're seeing is just this growth over growth because they're doing it performance and lifestyle. It's pretty simple when you just cut it down to that kind of binary, are we hitting these two levers? And they certainly
Colin (38:09):
Are. It's going to be interesting how it shakes out because as much as I'm sort of looking at on with sort of a little side eye, they also announced, what was it two weeks ago, that they're working on their spray on Shoe 3D printed shoe. So these brands of the moment, if they continue to innovate and do interesting things, especially with color, I mean running is huge and it's like I'm sure all the other running bands are still doing well, but it's tired, right? This is the new stuff now and the that and what's that going to mean for future generations? Okay, my wife bought a pair of Hokas and then Lily, my daughter went and got a pair of Hokas. It's just sort of like how does that pay forward as you look ahead and how do you plan for that if you are one of the more tired older brands?
Justin (38:51):
I mean Ho Hoka will, I mean, become a tired old brand this at some point. Yeah. That's just how the nature of the world, how it goes. Yeah.
Colin (39:01):
Who hasn't, who's never become tired and old Coleman lanterns.
Justin (39:06):
Yeah, right. Yeah, good question. God, Louisville Slugger.
Colin (39:14):
Oh fuck yeah,
Justin (39:16):
Rawlings
Colin (39:17):
Actually did, they probably had a moment where they were tired of old when Demarini is coming out,
Justin (39:21):
Double
Colin (39:21):
Ball has entered the chat bats
Justin (39:23):
And stuff. You never see Louisville Slugger anymore in the Bigs. I don't even know. It's a good point. Yeah, they're always,
Colin (39:29):
It's speaking to my childhood when you say that is probably why I'm, yeah, David, what's an outdoor brand that's never gotten old and tired? Marmite Mart because they started old and tired. Is that why?
Justin (39:40):
Yeah.
Colin (39:41):
Poor Marmite taking a lot of shots on this podcast lately.
Justin (39:44):
Yes, they are.
Colin (39:46):
Speaking of Marmite,
Justin (39:48):
Oh my gosh.
Colin (39:49):
I saw two articles this past week on this topic and figured we get the mayor of the Sierra, Mr. Justin Hausman to weigh on this. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. You're welcome. I know you have an event. You have to speak ag, the little ribbon cutting up Sono Pass later this afternoon. That's right. That's right. According to rv.com, Rangers at Sequoia National Park are advising visitors to wrap their vehicles in a tarp when they are away from their car. If not, Marmon may fully fuck up their car. Apparently the play is to drive on top of the tarp, then wrap the tarp around your car and tie it off on the roof to seal off the undercarriage and to avoid the larger rodents from moving in and feasting on engine components and fluids, which apparently they're attracted to the smell of Jess, have you ever done this? Have you pulled up and seen You've done it yourself?
Justin (40:36):
I've done this myself. And if you are backpacking in certain parts of, especially Sequoia doesn't have a ton of entrances, but some of the higher up trailhead, yeah, all the cars will be tarped or most of the cars will be tarped.
Colin (40:54):
Is this a California marm thing? Because I remember going to Paradise on Rainier. It's a big parking lot. There's Marmon in the parking lot. I don't recall seeing wrapped up cars in Washington.
Justin (41:02):
Interesting. That's a good question. I'm actually not sure about that. I do remember thinking this in, my wife and I were in the Pyrenees a few years ago and it's like Marmon heaven. And I remember we parked our rental car. I'm like, should we wrap it? I dunno, maybe it's a thing about the ones in Sequoia, the real zone Mineral King, which is, I hesitate to even say it's name on here, just it's this very special place and it wouldn't do well with 12 million people traipsing around Mineral King. But Mineral King, which is
Colin (41:30):
Our audience, we have 12 million people who listen to the podcast. So they're
Justin (41:33):
Smart. Most of them are Marvin. I was going to say the Marvins are getting excited. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bring 'em in. But Mineral King is especially notorious for this. But yeah, when I spent that summer many years ago in the Sia Kinks Canyon zone, my truck was tarped every time I was there. Wow.
Colin (41:53):
Do you do it now when you go camping and stuff? Do you do
Justin (41:55):
It? No. For some reason they're more concentrated in the Southern Sierra, and I don't really know why that, I'm not sure they exist in the Central Sierra too, but it's not really a thing up here. I've seen it though. Every once in a while you'll see people that will do it, but down there it's pretty common. And I've also seen Mars in, I've seen a car getting attacked by mites before I've been at a trailhead and you hear, what is that going on? You say kind of Mars up underneath the wheel wells. This seems
Colin (42:23):
Like the classic thing where you talk yourself out of doing it even though it's pretty easy and then you're like, fuck when you get back to your car. That was dude,
Justin (42:30):
It's the worst. What's interesting, so this never happened to me with Marmite specifically, but I don't know, seven or eight years ago, my wife and I were on a camping trip in Santa Barbara and we drove down there and in my Tacoma that I had at the time and drove home. And the day after we got back, I went to go somewhere in the truck and started it and it was just weird and all the lights were on and it kind of ran, but something was wrong and I was just like, what the fuck? And so I took it to the dealer, which I would not normally do, but everything was on, all the lights were on and they hit me up later that day. They're like, yeah, it looks like you got a rat or something. Got up into your wiring harness and just chewed the shit out of it. It was like $6,000 to fix, thankfully. Here's something that you will be interested to know if this happens to you with Marmite, if you have comprehensive insurance, it's covered. It's considered like an attribute nature.
Colin (43:33):
So my Marmite insurance plan idea is not going to work wild.
Justin (43:37):
So it was covered, but it depends on the animal, but I guess Toyota's notorious for using soy-based, they probably all do now, but soy-based coatings in some of wiring coatings and it smells sweet. And so they like to chew on that. And then Marmite, it's always been thought, are attracted to the smell of antifreeze and they don't really exactly know where it is, so they just chew through anything to get to
Colin (44:00):
It, get to it.
Justin (44:01):
But they'll chew through. I mean a lot of the important parts of your brake lines are steel, but there's rubber too. And they'll chew through brake lines. They'll chew through just about anything. But yeah, I never thought about the fact that it does seem to be like a southern Sierra phenomena, but it's no joke.
Colin (44:18):
Well, David, in the trails of Forest Park in Portland, do you guys wrap your cars to keep the tweakers out? What happens up? Yeah,
Producer Dave (44:26):
No comment. I don't want to give away my secrets,
Justin (44:30):
But yeah,
Colin (44:30):
Don't mess around with that. Do it. Wrap your foot everybody. It's not easy, by the way. Your car, what size tarp do you need for that big one? Yeah, right. That's what I was thinking. Yeah, big one. A lot of times it depends. I mean, I've seen people that just wrap up the front. They really just want stuff in the engine, but it's a pain in the ass. Actually, I went down this rabbit hole when that happened to my truck Mar. You can buy little electronic things that you put on your battery that emit a frequency that the rodents don't like. A lot of people use moth balls. They'll just put moth balls in the engine compartment that works for mice. I dunno about Marmite. See, the simplest thing is just to wrap up your car or just not drive there. Go. If there's any other way to get there, you just do that.
(45:15):
Just walk. Yeah, but those little bastards. Well, lastly today we want to give ourselves a plug and let you know that your favorite Outdoor Gear podcast is back. A new episode of Gear and Beer went up last week. Debuting our pal, Sean McCoy from Gear Junkie. This week Meg Carney joins Justin, producer Dave and I to offer you a buying guide to p FFA s free stuff. And looking ahead, we're going to be featuring folks from brands and other journalists as well, as well as some episodes where Justin just reviews gear. So be sure to follow and rate gear and beer wherever you get your podcasts. That's all I had today, boys. Anything else to touch on before we punch out? It was pretty true. It's Justin's birthday. Oh boy. So everybody send your, well if you send a well wish to Justin, I'll send you a sticker. Oh, that's nice. Yeah. Send a happy birthday message to my rock fight@gmail.com with your address and I'll send you a sticker. That's nice to celebrate. Mr. Allen, are you going to share those with me, Colin? 22. Of course I will. It's his 22nd birthday. He's very young. That's right. Yeah. Started having children very young in life. His 22nd birthday after his 24th birthday.
(46:21):
Well, the rock fight is in production of rock Fight LLC. Our producer today, David Karta, our direction provided by the camping Sarah Genser for Justin Hausman. I'm Colin True. Thank you for listening and here to take us out like he always does. It's Krista Makes going to sing the rock fight Fight song will see you next time. Rock fighters Rockside
Chris DeMakes (46:39):
Rock fight. We go into the rock bike where we speak our truth, stay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree. We talk about human power, outdoor activities and big bikes about topics that we find interesting like caution music, the latest movie reviews, ideas for the This is where we speak truth. This is where we speak our truth. Bike. Bike. Welcome to the.
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