Brands For Public Lands: The Outdoor Industry Speaks Up! Plus: Is Nature Really Non-Partisan?
- colin7931
- Apr 9
- 43 min read
Today on the show we start by helping to break the news about Brands For Public Lands, a coalition of outdoor industry businesses who are speaking up on behalf of our sacred public spaces.
Colin is joined by the Executive Director of The Conservation Alliance, Paul Hendricks, who gives the background on this new coalition, how it came together, and what will happen next.
Then Mountain Gazette's Kyle Frost returns to The Rock Fight. Last weeks edition of Kyle's newsletter, Here & There, discussed partisanship in nature. He and Colin dig into the examples Kyle offered that show we are not always united when it comes to outdoor conversations. They also talk about the current tariff situation and get Kyle's point of view from an American currently living abroad.
To learn more about participating in Brands For Public Lands click here.
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Episode Transcript:
Colin True
00:00:00.160 - 00:03:07.188
Hey, everyone, before we keep going here, I need to tell you about our teammates at Darby Communications.
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Since we started working with Darby, more and more people and this is an important point now. Guys, I want you to hear me on this. More and more people have reached out to us here at the Rock Flight because of that messaging.
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Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head.
I'm Colin True, and today we have some big news to come out of the outdoor industry when it comes to public lands. And then an old friend of the podcast stops by to say hi.
But before we get to that, if you missed Monday's episode of the Rock Fight, go back to hear outdoor industry insider Owen Comerford and producer Dave and I dig into the topic of the moment. That topic is tariffs. That is an episode you don't want to miss. And be sure to come back this Friday for what is our usual Wednesday episode.
Justin Hausman will be here to get up to something good with me, I'm sure. And lastly, support Open Container, the newest show on the Rock Play Podcast network and hosted by the legend himself, Doug Schnitzman.
It's a great podcast. You can find Open Container wherever. You're listening to my voice right now.
Head over there, click follow, and of course, follow the Rock Fight as well. Hey, stick around. We'll be right back. So normally on Wednesday, Justin Hman and I talk about stories that come out of the outdoor community.
But today, I'm proud that the Rock Fight is part of the announcement that the Conservation alliance is spearheading, called Brands for Public Lands.
Over the past few weeks, over 60 outdoor businesses and brands have worked to establish a coalition to make the outdoor industry heard during this time of threat to our sacred public lands. And today, those brands are making their presence known. So we have two things for you on tap for today's show.
First is Executive Director for the Conservation Alliance, Paul Hendricks. He joins me to talk about the announcement, how Brands for Public Lands came together, and what happens next.
And just a heads up, we had kind of a weird connection. So if you hear some clicking during my conversation with Paul, that's not your headphones or car stereo, don't worry, it's not you, it's me.
But it's okay. Don't worry about it. But wait, there's more.
After I chat with Paul, I'm then joined by Mountain Gazette's Kyle Frost, who last week wrote a really interesting piece for his newsletter here and there about nature as a politically partisan topic. He comes on the show and we get a little deeper into that conversation, as well as touching a bit on tariffs.
Longtime listeners will recognize Kyle as a returning champion to the podcast, and we are always excited to hear more about his insights. Just a banger of an episode for you today. So let's kick it off with my conversation with Paul Hayes of the Conservation Alliance. All right.
We're here with Paul Hendricks, who is the executive director of the Conservation Alliance. Welcome to the show, Paul.
Paul Hendricks
00:03:07.364 - 00:03:09.600
Thanks, Colin. Thanks for having me on here today.
Colin True
00:03:09.980 - 00:03:13.760
So how long have you been in the executive director chair now?
Paul Hendricks
00:03:14.300 - 00:03:19.668
So I got into the position in August. So what is that, nine months, Ish or so?
Colin True
00:03:19.724 - 00:03:23.640
Eight months. Any regrets at this point?
Paul Hendricks
00:03:23.940 - 00:03:26.200
My board of directors listening to this.
Colin True
00:03:27.860 - 00:03:30.640
Like, I thought I was going to be protecting wilderness.
Paul Hendricks
00:03:31.060 - 00:03:48.412
Right, Right. No, no regrets at all. You know, I'd say, you know, it's a, it's an uphill battle right now on a lot of stuff, but hey, we've got to dig in.
We've got to do it. And I, and I think we're going to come out of what we're facing right now better, stronger and more refined.
Colin True
00:03:48.476 - 00:04:00.792
So I think it's a great, lovely. We have to maintain a positive attitude.
There's a lot happening in the US Right now with our new presidential administration that let's, let's remind Everybody not yet 100 days old.
Paul Hendricks
00:04:00.896 - 00:04:01.160
Right.
Colin True
00:04:01.200 - 00:04:02.728
We haven't even crossed that threshold yet.
Paul Hendricks
00:04:02.784 - 00:04:04.072
Haven't crossed that threshold.
Colin True
00:04:04.216 - 00:04:41.682
And as our president, he's been rolling out his agenda. The outdoor community has not been spared from the policies that will likely be damaging from an economic conservation recreation point of view.
But today's a big day on that front. I think today's almost a day a lot of us sort of in the know have been waiting for and wondering what was going to happen here.
So shortly after this episode drops, a coalition of outdoor brands and groups will have started talking about how the outdoor industry is going to respond or is responding to our president's plans with the Conservation alliance helping to lead the charge.
So, Paul, can you Just give us an overview of what you guys are doing, what you've been up to, what the leaders in the outdoor industry have been working on for the past few weeks. Like what's going on?
Paul Hendricks
00:04:41.866 - 00:05:14.766
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you alluded to it. There's a lot coming out our industry right now and tariffs being probably the biggest one that a lot people are focused on.
But you know, if you shift the glance a little bit, you know, the backbone of our outdoor industry is nature, right? The places where our gear, our apparel, our provisions, guiding services, photography, it all takes place on ecosystems in. On our public lands. Right.
And if those ecosystems aren't healthy, our economy isn't healthy. Right?
Colin True
00:05:14.838 - 00:05:15.534
So, right.
Paul Hendricks
00:05:15.622 - 00:06:55.120
Right now we're looking at nature being under significant threat right now and specifically the amazing natural resources that we call our public lands. So there are, there are a lot of conversations, signals and actions right now that have come from Washington D.C.
that are, if they come to fruition, if they're allowed to come to fruition, would have devastating effects on public land system and therefore on the trillion dollar outdoor recreation economy that relies on it. So that's the backdrop of what we're kind of looking at right now. And we can get into some more details later of what we're talking about there.
But you know, TCA and our members, we've been engaged in a lot of conversations over the almost 100 days now.
But a couple of weeks ago, we had a call with our good friends over at Patagonia and in particular, Ryan Gellert was really adamant about mobilizing the outdoor industry around protecting our public lands and our economy. Right.
And so over the past few weeks, we've been working behind the scenes with, with a number of brands, another number of nonprofit partners to stand up what we're calling brands for public lands.
And today we're launching that coalition, which is a group of over 60 businesses that are really stepping up, really stepping forward and protecting our public lands, which we know is our most valuable asset. Right. It's the backbone of our economy.
And it's time to supercharge the industry and try to make our voice in our presence known, with elected officials, with our customers, with our employees that we are here to protect the public lands. And so we're launching that today.
Colin True
00:06:55.820 - 00:07:11.220
Are there any details in the message?
Is it more to say is this the kind of like, you know, the, the line in the sand, like, hey, we are going to be vocal, we are going to be pushing back against your agenda? Or is there any, are there any kind of Specifics that are going to come along with that message. Or is that to come?
Paul Hendricks
00:07:11.840 - 00:08:00.332
Yeah, that'll be to come. I mean, I think right now, the launch of it is to make our presence known. Right.
There's been a lot of nonprofit coalitions, tribal coalitions, others who have stood up and pushing against that. But the business voice has been a little bit in the backdrop, a little bit in the background.
And so what we're getting out today is saying we are here and we are adamant about protecting our public lands, and we have two specific actions that we are taking place. So we had some sign on letters that got sent over to D.C. this morning, which we can dig into overall.
But it's meant to be a message that is signaling to people that we are here and we're serious about protecting these lands. And when things come up, we're going to dig deep and we're going to protect landscapes, we're going to protect laws and everything like that.
Colin True
00:08:00.516 - 00:09:29.448
This is really good news. One, and even if it is more of just kind of an announcement, because this is Trump 2.0, I think, is shaping up.
We've talked a little bit about it on the podcast. But to be different than Trump 1.0. Right. Obviously, he. The narrative is he's much more emboldened to kind of get his agenda out there.
He's much more like kind of a plan of what he's doing, and he's surrounding himself with people who are enabling him to do that plan versus the first time. There were more. Some checks and balances along the way. And the. I think the.
As I kind of reflect back now, in the first hundred days of this, in the way things kind of came out of the gate, there was a little. It was noticeably kind of quiet on the industry front, which at first was a little. I don't know.
I think we did talk about this in the podcast, like, hey, what's going on? How come nobody's saying anything?
Ryan did break the ice with that by, with his op ed piece and time and then, you know, but now to kind of understand, maybe listen, it was a little bit more of like, we needed to kind of get our ducks in a row, too, before we kind of just charge out of the gate. I mean, the first time around, you know, Bears Ears gave us that sort of like, knee jerk, like, hey, like, hands off dick. Like, what are you doing?
No, like, you know, and we were able to kind of like just. That was a real kind of outdoorsy, sort of, you know, touchstone of the first time around.
This time, though, as far reaching as everything has been going, and you mentioned the tariff conversation has been dominating and will obviously continue to dominate things for the, you know, I'm sure for a long time, it's, I think it's really important that we are a little more organized and a little more thoughtful in what the approach is so that it can have an impact and not just be a lot of lip service. You know what I mean?
Paul Hendricks
00:09:29.584 - 00:10:29.914
Exactly. Yep. Yeah. You pointed to exactly what we're dealing with right now.
And you know, I feel like there's a little bit of two tactics in terms of the messaging that we're seeing coming out of dc. One is the flood the zone type of thing, which is just create chaos, get people to react to everything so that no one is strategic.
And we wanted to make sure we didn't do that. The other side of things is that there is a lot of the conversations we've been hearing a little bit about is largely held in secret right now.
And so some signals come out, they're retracted. And so we're trying to figure out what is actually going on.
And as a business coalition, knowing we want to really be strategic with where we're engaging, how we're engaging, where we're using our political capital, we want to make sure it was the time that we knew exactly what was coming down the line and we could really launch ourselves out there and take specific actions around the biggest threats to our public lands. And we're going to continue to do that.
Colin True
00:10:30.082 - 00:10:44.266
So what is coming next? Like what, what are the, you know, what should people be looking for? Like, what would you anticipate as this kind of thing unfolds?
Like for people to kind of be keeping an eye out from, from the, the brands for public lands. Great alliteration, by the way. You know, got to get this, the rhyme scheme going there, you know.
Paul Hendricks
00:10:44.338 - 00:10:44.634
Thanks.
Colin True
00:10:44.682 - 00:10:45.018
Yeah, yeah.
Paul Hendricks
00:10:45.034 - 00:10:49.594
I mean, I, I'm a three and a five year old, so I'm deep into Dr. Seuss these days.
Colin True
00:10:49.762 - 00:10:53.082
Or make for good merch. Who's going to make the merch? Is there a fight behind the scenes?
Paul Hendricks
00:10:53.146 - 00:10:55.750
Who's going to. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Colin True
00:10:55.910 - 00:11:02.118
Everyone wants to make the merch. Like, sorry, guys, you know, where's your, where's your factory located? Who has the lowest tariffs?
Paul Hendricks
00:11:02.134 - 00:13:32.700
That's who gets to make the merge. Exactly. Yeah.
So I think, you know, when we think about what we're doing coming down the line, I think there's probably some short term things and then some long term goals. Right. Overall, I think we think about the short term, we've got an acute set of tasks in front of us, Right.
And that is to specifically defend the bedrock of the public land system and specific landscapes.
So we are currently pretty involved in what we are calling the public land sell off issue, which is this larger movement of conversation, signals and things through all three branches of our government that we've seen, which is indicating that people have an appetite to sell off our public lands to address our national debt in the balance the budget and offset tax cuts. Right. And that is a nonstop issue for us. Right. That's a red line.
We are not going to allow that to happen because that could, that could devastate the public land system overall and it's irreversible actions that would happen. So that is a near term thing.
And this morning we submitted a letter to Congress to signal our direct opposition towards selling off our public lands to meet these purposes. Right. So over the next month, Congress is involved in what they call the budget reconciliation process, which is where a lot of that can happen.
We're going to be plugging, we're going to be pushing really hard on that.
We're also seeing indications and some stuff has dropped over the past week here that specific landscapes are being opened up to industrial extraction. So we know some things that have happened. We know some things are going to happen. Right. So that's a lot of.
It's the national monuments that become unfortunately the political football these days. Right. Got Bears Ears, you got Baj Nav Jo Ita Kukvene and you had a Grand Canyon there.
You've got Chuck Wall in California, these amazing landscapes that were designated under Obama or Biden and those are being shifted. He's also got amazing iconic landscapes that are the backbone for community based recreation economies.
Boundary Waters, Thompson Divide here in Colorado, Alaska, which are going to. Which are looking to be opened up for mineral extraction. And we've got that stuff coming down the line too, which we have to dig into.
So there's certainly no shortage of issues that we're going to be responding to.
Colin True
00:13:33.160 - 00:14:27.472
Yeah. And to your point, what you said earlier, you have to the vigilance with which this has to be approached and kind of the thoughtfulness too.
Right before we hit record, we're talking about how last week was tariff Central. Like we had just.
I told you how we had just finished recording the episode that ran on Monday where we got really deep into the weeds on tariffs and come back to my computer computer and find a bunch of urgent messages from folks like Fitz Cahal at The Dirtbag Diaries. Like, hey, like there's gonna be a vote ASAP on protecting public lands. And it just was like, wait, why?
Usually there's a, there's a build up to these things. Like, well this is the topic that we're talking about and eventually we get to this point where people are voting on it.
This was just like, hey, we just got done kind of trying to figure out like how we're gonna continue to, you know, operate as an economic driver, as an outdoor industry.
Well, hey, stop what you're doing and start posting people to call their senators, especially in these key states that they vote for this, you know, this resolution. And I imagine there's just gonna be a lot more of those sort of like chaotic moments in our future.
Paul Hendricks
00:14:27.656 - 00:15:06.042
Totally. Yep. Unfortunately that's the world we're living in right now. And there's going to be constant engagement opportunities.
And you know, I think the fear is that people get tired and you know, have some attrition towards fighting back.
And I totally get that overall and I think that, I think that probably alludes to one of like the longer term vision for what we have here is yeah, we can't keep living in this world where public lands where laws are flip flopping back and forth. Not only does it create, you know, tired people like you and I, Colin, but like you can't build economies around these if you don't know it.
Colin True
00:15:06.066 - 00:15:06.890
Yeah, exactly.
Paul Hendricks
00:15:06.970 - 00:15:59.648
The trails outside, you know, your coffee shop are going to be protected. And so what we really want to do is reframe the narrative around the economic vitality of our public lands. Right. So at a macro level, right.
The existence of promise of these lands in perpetuity has built a thriving trillion dollar economy. Right. Every year visitations to our public lands breaks new records. Right. So it's a growing economy, it's a growing industry overall.
And so if we talk about the economic yield of these lands, yes, it's a no brainer, right. It's growing, it's sustainable. And especially if you can look beyond that four time frame of electoral cycles. Right.
It builds long term economies that can be a foil for the boom and bust cycle that you know, have unfortunately devastated a lot of the communities out here in the West. Right.
Colin True
00:15:59.704 - 00:16:00.368
So, right.
Paul Hendricks
00:16:00.504 - 00:16:25.196
If we can tell that narrative, if we can really hit that forward and say this is an economic conversation here, we've got a chance to, to cross ideologies, demographics, geographies and that's what's probably going to make the big long term change so that we're not finding our, ourselves in a situation like we are right now, again, where we're just on constant defense and flipping back and forth on tactics.
Colin True
00:16:25.388 - 00:17:07.972
Yeah, it's a really good point.
I was thinking while you're chatting, while you're talking like the, the, the trillion dollar number that gets thrown out a lot and there's a lot of ways to nitpick that number and be like, well there's 90 plus categories and all the things, right? Like what does it really mean? And yes, it adds up to this.
And that's a very inside baseball, outdoor industry kind of conversation where it is not a debate, is in, is in the public lands conversation.
Like that is the, that is the thing that holds that trillion dollar number together across all those categories and that is leverage, especially for the economically minded, you know, policy centers that we have currently right now in Washington. So it is like that, that is to me, that is the leverage that we almost have.
It's like you are, you are, you are, you're, you're threatening a serious contributor to our national economy by going after this.
Paul Hendricks
00:17:08.076 - 00:17:31.510
So yeah, yeah, an economy that goes across divides, right? It's hikers, it's climbers, it's anglers, it's hunters, it's RVers, right?
There are people across the nation use our public lands for provisioning, for recreation, bringing their families, people around the world come to visit those and they're so accessible. And if we lose that, you know, it's going to be devastating to an economy.
Colin True
00:17:32.370 - 00:17:40.592
So what's, what resources exist right now. People look up what you guys are putting out there today. Like what, what, what would you encourage folks who are listening to this to do?
Paul Hendricks
00:17:40.746 - 00:18:36.892
Yeah, so, you know, we're building a rocket as we're flying it in a storm right now, but we really prioritize action, you know, function over form right away. So this morning, you know, we submitted two business sign on letters to one to the administration, one to Congress. We got that going.
We have a press release out there if you want to learn more. We've got a link to a survey that we can probably put in the, the podcast notes where you can get involved, indicate if you want to be involved.
You can email me. We're soon going to be setting up more formal resources like a website and all that type of stuff.
But we'd love to just get in touch with anyone who wants to be involved. The more the merrier here. Our power is in our collective numbers, in our collective economic numbers. So we'd love to have you get involved.
So email click the link that will maybe drop in here and yeah, definitely been shown. Onward. Sounds great.
Colin True
00:18:37.076 - 00:18:50.508
Awesome, man.
Well, listen, Paul, let's have you back on the show again to continue to talk about this, maybe have a longer conversation about some things, but happy to be part of the announcing this to the world and all we can do is keep our chin up and stay positive and keep pressing on this stuff. It's, it's all, really all we can do.
Paul Hendricks
00:18:50.564 - 00:19:00.652
Yep, you betcha. The antidote to depression is action, man.
So I appreciate you helping to get our word out there on what we're doing and it's going to take everyone right now. It's not a time to sit on the sidelines.
Colin True
00:19:00.716 - 00:19:02.044
Awesome. All right, buddy, thanks for joining.
Paul Hendricks
00:19:02.092 - 00:19:03.436
Yeah, thanks so much. Take care.
Colin True
00:19:03.588 - 00:20:54.774
All right, thanks to Paul for joining us today. We'll take a quick break and then we'll come back with Mountain Gazette's Kyle Frost. All right, folks, let's talk about a game changer. Literally.
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I should have gone back to. Look, I can't. I think it was like. Was it like last summer, the last time you were here? It's been a minute.
Kyle Frost
00:20:54.902 - 00:21:07.318
It has been a while. And I feel like you've made a lot of promises to. To guests in the meantime about green jackets and like this, you know, the, the Three Timers Awards.
I feel a little left out, you know.
Colin True
00:21:07.454 - 00:21:22.710
Well, you were more of a regular contributor, I guess now you really are now in the guest role. You probably should be up for the Five Timers Club. I mean, you're already. You've got to be in. Right.
You came on at least three or four in the history. This might be like six or seven of. I went back and counted.
Kyle Frost
00:21:23.690 - 00:21:31.586
It's gotta be something like that. But it has been a while. I think it was before I moved to London, so that was definitely was before you moved.
Colin True
00:21:31.618 - 00:21:38.690
You were prepping to move. Where is your van, by the way? You did your van build out while you were coming on the show too? What's going on with the van?
Kyle Frost
00:21:38.850 - 00:21:49.524
Yeah, the van is sitting. Parked in front of my sister's and her husband's house in Orange County. So when I go back to color. No, no, no. In Colorado.
Colin True
00:21:49.572 - 00:21:50.596
Oh, she's in Colorado.
Kyle Frost
00:21:50.628 - 00:21:51.320
Okay.
Colin True
00:21:51.660 - 00:21:52.036
Yeah.
Kyle Frost
00:21:52.068 - 00:22:07.140
Yeah. So we have actually had to go back enough this year for weddings and all sorts of things.
So it's been useful to have and just show up, pop in the van and you know, hop around for a week and then head back to the uk.
Colin True
00:22:07.260 - 00:22:10.836
That is nice and versatile. You can sleep in it, all that stuff. That's great.
Kyle Frost
00:22:10.988 - 00:22:25.328
Yeah. Haven't really been sleeping in it. Been taking advantage of friends, family members and that sort of thing. But it still been a useful vehicle.
A little bit of a money pit, but you know how those things are.
Colin True
00:22:25.384 - 00:23:05.870
Ah, it's all right now. You got, you got to, you know, you got to ride in the States every time you head home now. It's great. All right, man, let's dig into it.
So your most recent Mountain Gazette newsletter presents an overarching theme in which the title is Can Nature be Nonpartisan. I think there's a generally agreed to idea that the outdoors are kind of a topic where there is no politically political, political divide.
I mean, you know, that idea has come up a lot around here, actually. We've had like Jess Turner from the ORR on talking about the Explore act and how it, you know, passes through Congress unanimously.
But your newsletter highlights that. You don't really need to peel the onion too many layers deep to find examples where there are clear partisan divides in the outdoors. So let's.
I thought this would be a really interesting topic to kind of dig into. You know, what was the origin for you? Like, why did you decide you wanted to dig into this?
Kyle Frost
00:23:06.330 - 00:23:20.030
I mean, I think the initial starting point from this was actually less like, can is the outdoors nonpartisan? And more. It was a couple of situations that I noticed happening in pretty rapid succession recently.
Colin True
00:23:20.810 - 00:23:21.336
Yeah.
Kyle Frost
00:23:21.418 - 00:24:34.354
You know, I start a lot of my writing from a perspective of, you know, looking at things that seem super one sided or seem too good to be true or, you know, seem extremely slanted one way. Yeah. And then just like actually like digging in or like hell, just read the actual article instead of, you know, looking at the headline.
And then when the article references, like a research paper, like, read the research paper.
So for this, I think it kind of got packaged in the sense of, like, how complicated modern conservation and environmentalism is, both like for progressives and for conservatives. Yeah. But I had kind of had three main examples.
The first of which I'm sure you saw, and I'm sure a lot of listeners saw or shared, was this Instagram carousel, that very well designed, beautiful picture, white text quotes talking about how Trump is going to cut down 100 million acres of old growth forests, basically.
Colin True
00:24:34.482 - 00:24:35.618
Yep, yep.
Kyle Frost
00:24:35.714 - 00:24:59.200
And look, I get how social advocacy works, I get how marketing works, I get how attention works.
Like, there's a whole conversation to be had about how the conservative movement has utilized or weaponized in a lot of senses, like misinformation and that sort of thing to get their goals. But like, that is just. That headline is just not true.
Colin True
00:24:59.940 - 00:25:00.636
Right.
Kyle Frost
00:25:00.788 - 00:27:01.936
You know, and the executive order that he signed basically instructs agencies. I believe it was to like increase logging capacity by 25% and find ways to expedite approvals and all sorts of things.
Logging in general is a complicated topic in and of itself. I'm working on a piece about that.
I'm really trying to get some perspectives from forestry officials and from logging companies as well, because logging happens on public lands. Right now, I think it's about 3 billion board feet a year. By law, they can do up to six.
And there's reason to be concerned with this administration about the way they're approaching this. Some stuff came out, I think it was yesterday.
They kind of followed up from the Department of Agriculture about how they're going to zone, for lack of a better word, public lands to do this kind of expediting and that kind of stuff, but there's still local land managers involved. Like, there are still going to be legal hurdles and there are.
Just because something has been put in this zone that is an overlapping relationship of high wildfire risk and a kind of nebulous designation as non healthy or diseased or whatever doesn't even mean that logging companies are interested. Like, I saw, I seen a bunch of stuff today that said, like, people are really worried about the boundary waters. I'm sorry.
Like, there's not going to be a logging company that's going to go into the boundary waters. I just, just do not believe it. Like, the infrastructure isn't there. The public perception is terrible. Like, they're not cutting down redwoods.
We already get most of our softwood from tree farms in the southeast.
Colin True
00:27:02.128 - 00:28:07.414
Like, if nothing else, it just, it muddies the waters, right? I mean, it's like that's. We are such a hyper critic. Like, we get. We're so hypersensitive to like one specific detail.
I feel like this is like a human nature thing that, like. And now it becomes this one thing, right? As opposed to, like, the broader message of like, hey, we should be concerned about this.
How do we solve for it? It's like, no, no, I read that it's going to be this one thing. Like, well, you didn't read that. That's not accurate. It should be this.
And it's like, now the debate becomes about the message that was sent versus what the thing is we should actually be debating. I'm seeing this and I know we're gonna talk about tariffs in a minute, but that the tariffs are the same thing.
It's kind of like, well, you're not paying attention to this. And this one guy said this one thing. It's like, yeah, but you gotta take so much. It's such a broader topic that it just get, It's.
Everyone just wants to drill it down to the one thing they feel like they know about as opposed to, hey, let's actually talk about what this really means, how it's going to be deployed and where should our concern lie and push back. It's so much more nuanced. And I mean, and it's obvious that's what the Trump administration wants to do as well.
They want to sow this chaos knowing that this is how people are going to react. But yeah, man, it just like. And it's. I don't know, it's rough. It's definitely rough.
Kyle Frost
00:28:07.542 - 00:29:30.752
And it just makes these issues very polarizing when there are, like, honest conversations to be had where, you know, if you talk to a lot of people that are involved in forestry and that sort of stuff, like these kind of conversations that force the polarization, make it harder to do actual needed forest management because it turns, it turns public perception completely away from logging as a possibility. There's like a. I think it's called pro forestration, which is the idea that we should never touch forests.
Like they should be self managed and completely human. Hands off.
Which as far as I understand from the research that I've done, I'm still in the midst of this is a challenging one, given that humans have been heavily involved in forest management for thousands of years and there is some element that is useful to mitigate wildfires, to burn growth and manage the health of these places. But yep, like you said, I mean, it's a complicated topic. And.
And the whole point of that was that I don't think that that particular post was super productive.
Colin True
00:29:30.896 - 00:29:47.824
Yeah. I think it's like all of a sudden, then all of a sudden, like you said, where it goes from this, which is maybe even if it's well intended to.
Hey, did you hear? They're laying waste to the entire redwood forests of Northern California. It's like, no, that's not what's happening.
This is just how these things perpetuate themselves. So stop it.
Kyle Frost
00:29:47.912 - 00:29:53.454
Yeah, but that kind of brought me to the second one, which is rei.
Colin True
00:29:53.502 - 00:29:54.590
Yeah, well, this is a good one.
Paul Hendricks
00:29:54.630 - 00:29:55.250
Yeah.
Kyle Frost
00:29:55.590 - 00:30:04.290
And you know, REI has made itself a little bit of a punching bag for a lot of extremely valid reasons lately.
Colin True
00:30:04.710 - 00:30:09.502
They certainly have unions, unforced errors up in Seattle.
Kyle Frost
00:30:09.646 - 00:30:38.116
That's a good way to put it.
And you know, I think what happened here was that they were one of the signatories amongst 33 other organizations on a letter from the Outdoor Recreation Roundtable, which is a, you know, a conglomeration of a bunch of associations in the outdoor industry supporting the nomination of Doug Burgum for Secretary of the Interior. This happened in like February.
Colin True
00:30:38.228 - 00:30:40.756
I was like, January 14th. I got. Yeah, it was awesome.
Kyle Frost
00:30:40.868 - 00:30:41.972
January even earlier.
Colin True
00:30:42.076 - 00:30:45.232
Yeah, yeah, it was pre. It was pre. On inauguration.
Kyle Frost
00:30:45.396 - 00:31:52.686
Yeah. And a month or two later, it kind of like made its way to social media. People really latched on to the fact that REI was a signatory there.
This was when the layoffs started happening. And people are still mad.
Like every time REI post something positive, negative, if they posted a whole thing about how they support public lands and yada, yada, everything. Boycott rei. You guys support cutting down forests and, you know, defunding national parks and all that kind of stuff.
And like guys like these kind of letters happen in every single administration no matter who wins. Like, yeah, these are big companies that want to remain in the room. And for what it's worth, like Burgum, we don't like the Trump administration.
I don't like the Trump administration. But as, as a conservative politician leading this position goes pretty middle of the line. Not bad.
Colin True
00:31:52.838 - 00:31:55.054
He's done a lot for conservation.
Kyle Frost
00:31:55.182 - 00:32:04.062
Yeah, he's done a lot for conservation. He is a conservative, but a reasonable one. And I think we've just gone too far.
Colin True
00:32:04.166 - 00:32:42.832
That's the thing I talked to, I talked to. I'm sure I've said this in the POD before. Like I added at that moment is.
And it's funny, I was, I did exactly the thing that we're highlighting that we shouldn't do. Like, because I'm on, I get those press releases, right? So I got all the.
From the orr, came through early mid January, saw it like, and I kind of got like, ah, that makes sense. They would endorse the Secretary of the Interior kind of thing. It made sense in the moment.
Didn't really look through who else had signed it, just saw the release. And then all of a sudden when it early February starts to come up. Did you see this thing? Do you see the names that were on it?
You're like, oh my God, how could they, how could they possibly support the Trump administration in any form?
Kyle Frost
00:32:42.936 - 00:32:43.216
Yeah.
Colin True
00:32:43.248 - 00:33:39.300
And I talked to Ken Eversol and he's like, look man, we need a seat at the table. What good does it do? You see? I mean any administration would not want you, would want you to be supportive so that you keep that seat at the table.
A Trump administration, the guy who's basically making decisions based off of loyalty tests, like, what do you think's gonna happen if we say no? You can't have your guy. Especially like you just said a guy who is conservatives go about as good as you're gonna get. And so the REI of it all is.
It's like I get it and principle, but it's a lot like the, the first point about, you know, about the forest. It's like, it is a, you gotta, you gotta look a little deeper of like why this is. Or it still could mean that they're anti union and like REI can.
All these things can be true.
Like, like you don't have to just like bag on them for this and you can still be mad at them for not supporting the unions in their stores if you want to, but it's like, yikes, leave this one alone. Like, I mean, what do you want them to do?
Kyle Frost
00:33:39.600 - 00:33:56.962
Yeah, and it's just like, is this really where you think your effort should be directed at this moment? Like, do you really believe that at its core, REI is supportive of these things?
No, but like it has some weight as its place in the industry, as do a lot of these other organizations. Absolutely.
Colin True
00:33:57.106 - 00:33:58.274
Billion Dollar Company.
Kyle Frost
00:33:58.442 - 00:34:43.510
I know for a fact, like a lot of the people involved with that letter have been in Washington since then talking with people.
And that's how that kind of brings us into the next thing here, which is that there was an organization announced a couple weeks ago called Nature is Nonpartisan, founded by a combination group of conservatives and progressives, basically, with the idea being that of pushing policies and compromise and working together on outdoor policy and that that should, you know, supersede party allegiance and stuff like that that everyone wants.
Colin True
00:34:44.570 - 00:34:50.350
Was this like the reels or TikToks? I saw where it was like, hey, I voted for Trump, but I believe in the outdoors. Was that, Was that?
Kyle Frost
00:34:50.680 - 00:34:51.376
Yeah, yeah.
Colin True
00:34:51.408 - 00:34:52.032
Okay.
Kyle Frost
00:34:52.176 - 00:36:02.620
And I think it got a pretty mixed reaction both from both sides. You know, conservatives that thought it was ridiculous, liberals that thought it was.
I mean, there was a one newsletter I read that basically described it as like the Make America Healthy Again like movement, which is very problematic and you know, a Trojan horse for like conservative politics. I mostly think at its core, like, they haven't done anything yet, so we're kind of over prescribing their level of influence.
But you know, I looked into it quite a bit. There's some concerns.
There's, you know, they have some people on their board that are kind of like Gen z, culture war, YouTube kind of people that I assume are there because, for just reach and communication, but like no real history in caring about environmental issues or the outdoors and that kind of stuff. And so to me that's like that, that just seems like bad, bad optics.
Colin True
00:36:03.440 - 00:36:04.184
Right.
Kyle Frost
00:36:04.352 - 00:36:50.160
But at the same time, like there's a lot of, you know, there's an ex director of the Sierra Club, there's X, I think, Interior Secretary. And I think it like both sides are kind of like wary of. This just illustrates like that if you.
There are issues that we're going to have to work together on and there are compromises that are going to be made. Like, you know, there's a lot about far right conservative issues that, that I don't agree with and other people aren't going to agree with.
There's a lot about left leaning environmentalism. Issues that people that I don't agree with and that a lot of other people don't agree with.
Colin True
00:36:50.700 - 00:36:51.108
Right.
Kyle Frost
00:36:51.164 - 00:36:58.800
But if we want to get anything done, we have to be able to have conversations about this stuff. And that's the hard part.
Colin True
00:36:59.580 - 00:37:05.908
So the response to this was a very American response. Two sides were outraged and a bunch of us in the middle being like, I don't know.
Kyle Frost
00:37:05.964 - 00:37:37.488
Yeah. Being like, come on, just like, let's just see what happens here. You know, I think there's compromises that are going to have to be made.
There's a huge elephant in the room that the Trump administration is going to push through ridiculous policies regardless of who Doug Burgum is, regardless of whether people, conservatives and liberals are aligned on progress and conservation and that kind of stuff. Yeah, but you know, we're going to see what happens.
Colin True
00:37:37.504 - 00:37:59.580
We're going to talk about the tariffs in a second. I mean, that's, that's kind of largely been. The reporting is that he's kind of operating on his own on this.
So it's like, you know, Doug Burgum could be the most like, like liberal, left leaning conservation, Sierra Club conservationist of all time. It's like, what do you think he's gonna, what do you think he's gonna do in the Trump administration?
Donald's gonna decide what he wants to do and that's the way it's gonna be.
Kyle Frost
00:38:00.040 - 00:38:03.020
I mean, I think the scary thing is, is we just don't know.
Colin True
00:38:03.640 - 00:38:40.812
You just don't know. That's it. And that's part of the plan.
I guess when you look at the three examples you cited, and they're great and I think, and this is why I do really enjoy your writing, is to kind of give a little that, like. Yeah, well, I mean, and actually Halsman did a thing on this recently too where he kind of got in the Explore act.
And you heard from some people who weren't as supportive of the Explorer act as others because there is just this sort of. Yeah, it's the outdoors, so everyone's going to be on board with it.
It's like, well, it's not that hard to find examples where there is some divisiveness. What's your takeaway? Like, what did you have? Did you have a conclusion?
You came to kind of like looking at these as like, you know, a, either a path forward or something to kind of, that people just need to be mindful about?
Kyle Frost
00:38:40.996 - 00:40:41.420
I mean, I think the thing to be mindful about is that you have to think about things more critically and you have to be willing to compromise. Like there are a lot of progressive policies when it comes to environmentalism that are problematic.
There's a lot of left leaning politics that looks for silver bullets and anything less than the silver bullet is not worth doing. And I think the logging situation is a good example.
There are a lot of both brands and advocacy organizations that put out the perspective that logging is just bad, period. And that permeates into the public consciousness that can cause problems.
I think that there's very, you get similar conversations with regards to things like nuclear energy, with regards to permitting when it comes to renewable energy projects and that kind of stuff.
You know, that's kind of, in some cases, not all this is not, this doesn't, I'm not saying regulations are bad, but in some cases they've been used to prevent solar farms from being built or the application of renewables or higher density housing and things like this. And I think just being willing to look critically about internally and recognize that you don't have to give up your values.
Like, you know, I'm not, this is not a, you know, you're not giving up what you believe in here. But like, let's think about things and let's think about what the other people are saying.
Like other people don't want to have dirty water, other people don't want to sell national parks. But there's conversations to be had.
Colin True
00:40:42.760 - 00:40:52.700
I thought we were supposed to come out like fully formed individuals who knew everything and are hard and fast in our opinions for from the time we're like, you know, 17 to the rest till we die. Right? Isn't that the way?
Kyle Frost
00:40:52.740 - 00:40:54.700
No, no. The more you know, the less you.
Colin True
00:40:54.740 - 00:41:35.974
Know, the more you know, there we go. We'll throw back to the the 80s TV thing.
Well, the last time you came on the show, we were just starting to kind of, you were just like we mentioned, you're getting ready to relocate over to London. You've been there for a minute now through the first part of the Trump second term.
You definitely were ahead of the game on kind of writing about tariffs. We, we, we waited a little bit to wait and see how it kind of came out, but we, we just had an episode of that on Monday.
I guess I just want to start with even before we even maybe the specifics of the tariffs. How's it been observing the chaos, the tariffs and beyond everything else we're talking about from, you know, how's it been observing that from afar?
You ready to move home yet or are you kind of happy being outside of the country right now.
Kyle Frost
00:41:36.142 - 00:42:56.662
It's a unique perspective, that's for sure. The takeaway, I would say, is that there is. There's not a two sides coming from the UK and Europe. Here they are 100.
Everyone I talk to, everyone in the news and everything. It's basically just like, what the hell is going on with the US They've advocate, they've abdicated literally everything that they've stand for.
There are people I know that have.
Are canceling trips to the US like, this is a serious thing that I think a lot of Americans are maybe underestimating how on a dime, almost, that perceptions of the United States have changed extremely drastically. I think that the travel thing is actually going to be a larger problem than has even been reported yet. We're already seeing that with Canadians.
I think it's going to be the same with the Europeans and people from the uk That's. That's another economic problem. And that's not just like a.
This, the kind of anecdotal safety, you know, border crossing kind of stuff that is like, we don't, like, we don't want to go to the U.S. yeah, it's a.
Colin True
00:42:56.686 - 00:42:58.422
It's a form of protest. Yeah.
Kyle Frost
00:42:58.486 - 00:43:04.810
Yeah. So, yeah, it's. It's definitely been unique.
Colin True
00:43:06.670 - 00:43:11.810
Do you wish you could claim this was the plan the whole time? Like, I see this coming, guys, I'm getting out. Getting out of here.
Kyle Frost
00:43:12.750 - 00:43:23.010
No, definitely, definitely wasn't that. But, you know, I'm happy to be here for the moment and, you know, we'll see how long we're here for.
Colin True
00:43:23.390 - 00:43:26.022
How's the British accent coming? Are you trying to, like, you know.
Kyle Frost
00:43:26.206 - 00:43:26.550
No.
Colin True
00:43:26.590 - 00:43:28.502
Never hear your American accent.
Kyle Frost
00:43:28.566 - 00:43:55.564
So the only thing I do that Sarah gives me a hard time about is when I say sorry, like when I'm, like, passing someone or like you bump someone, like on the tube or. Or something like that. I kind of. I kind of go, sorry, sorry.
Or I kind of, like, do like a little bit of an accent because I have a weird aversion to being immediately labeled as, like, an American tourist or something.
Colin True
00:43:55.732 - 00:43:56.156
Right.
Kyle Frost
00:43:56.228 - 00:44:06.420
Especially. Especially in London. Like, like, no, I live here. Like, I'm. I know what I'm doing.
Like, I don't want to, like, have a, you know, weird anxiety about getting put in the.
Colin True
00:44:06.460 - 00:44:09.892
I don't think that's weird at all. I think that's smart.
Kyle Frost
00:44:10.036 - 00:44:14.516
I don't, like, affect, like an accent when I'm interacting with the world. But.
Colin True
00:44:14.588 - 00:44:50.620
No, but you create some ambiguity, right? Maybe that guy's Canadian. You know, maybe we don't know. We're not exactly sure. He doesn't. Not necessarily American. That's great. That's pretty funny.
Speaking about the tariff.
So we did do a deep dive on Monday and like I mentioned, you had written about it, but we were chatting about with Owen Comerford on Monday's episode.
Episode, you know, what are you keeping your eye on the most, you know, as this sort of thing unfolds, I mean, especially now, maybe that you can reflect back on what you wrote last month and kind of see as it's unfolding, you know, what is it that you are keeping your eye on as, as you go from the, you know, what you formed to what you wrote in your newsletter. And then now that it's actually happening, what, what's, what's interesting to you as we look at this?
Kyle Frost
00:44:51.240 - 00:45:37.390
Yeah. I mean, I think the most interesting thing for me is how like small, small brands are going to be able to react.
The big guys are going to find ways to manage inventory and they have a little, they can put more effort into non American markets and stuff like that. The smaller cottage brands don't have that leeway when it comes to inventory and pricing and all of that kind of stuff.
So I think there's reason to be worried there about what happens, you know, in general. It's, I think it'll be, it'll change the makeup of what people, what kind of product people are trying to move. No, especially kind of Q1 to Q2.
Colin True
00:45:38.250 - 00:45:38.990
Right.
Kyle Frost
00:45:39.290 - 00:46:41.384
But again, like, you know, I think you guys touched on this as well. Like the tariffs could be gone next week. I have like, we have no idea, like, people have no idea how to like, I guess.
Owen obviously comes from a heavy retail background and a deep understanding of this and a lot of your listeners do.
But the amount that uncertainty changes how much product you're going to order, what you're going to price it at, which categories of product you're trying to move, like which brands you're going to order from. Like, all of this stuff has just completely blown up in the last month and nobody really has an answer of what to do.
And I think some people are going to make bets one way and get totally screwed and some people are going to make bets another way and kind of ride it out successfully. I don't think anyone knows what those two options are right now, though.
Colin True
00:46:41.472 - 00:48:01.560
No, no. And I referenced it.
Just kind of, kind of just like off the cough remark, off the cuff remark on Monday of how kind of like shades of COVID and we and kind of behind the scenes we're planning out next week's episode. I think we might kind of dig into it because listen, what, what are the common themes here between when Covid hit and what's happening now?
It's uncertainty. And people have to make some decisions based off of stuff you can't really account for.
I mean, there's a really strong reality no matter how this shapes up, up, that the industry ends up back in the same position it was in 18 months ago. Like inventory problems, all that stuff. Right. Because people are gonna have to like, well, okay, where do we buy from? What do we have?
Okay, like, well, there's shortages here, so people are buying things up that are, that are. They were short on. Well, now we over order as a result.
I mean, so I don't want to like spoil things we're going to talk about in the future, but it's kind of like it's, it's not unlikely because to your exact point, the big, the big worry here is the lack of clarity. If this was truly just like, like this is the way it's going to be. They're like, okay, how do we work around it? And there's going to be.
Doesn't make it right. But if you make a bunch of moves today and then even, not even next week, like 30 days from now, this is a slow moving process to make. Shit, man.
It is not easy to just make the decision, decision, decision, oh, we shouldn't have left Vietnam. Now we got to go back. I mean, like just, it's, it's insane.
Kyle Frost
00:48:01.720 - 00:48:24.190
Yeah. And you know, if it's.
Again, like I said, it's just like people are going to make bets if things go forward in Vietnam and they get their stuff figured out. But China doesn't, but Thailand does, but Singapore doesn't. I don't know. Some of the guys are going to be able to move stuff around.
Some of them aren't. But it's kind of a mess for everyone.
Colin True
00:48:24.650 - 00:49:10.676
Well, and also lost in the tariff conversation at the end of last week is the fact that the Senate did in fact hold a vote quote, on the topic of selling off public land. So like that was fun to find out. Like, you know, 10 seconds after we learned about tariffs, they're like, oh no, we're going to do this too.
So like, let's just keep, let's just keep it going. The chaos train going.
The quote was to quote, to establish a deficit neutral reserve fund relating to preventing the use of proceeds from public land sales to reduce the federal Deficit and it failed with only two Republicans crossing the line to vote in favor of it.
I exchanged some emails with a person close to these proceedings who told me, I'm not really surprised that with all the fury and letters, not a single R was converted to our side. That's not sitting well. Where do you think this conversation's headed?
I mean it kind of relates a little bit back to some of things you're talking about at the beginning.
Kyle Frost
00:49:10.708 - 00:49:15.600
But yeah, I mean it's, it's certainly scary, right?
Colin True
00:49:16.380 - 00:49:17.124
Yeah.
Kyle Frost
00:49:17.252 - 00:49:39.760
You know, the.
Again, I think some of the framing around this is a little bit confusing because like the vote that actually happened is they voted to not make a resolution to explit, to explicitly prohibit it. It does not mean that they are going to do. Just continues to leave the door open.
Colin True
00:49:40.060 - 00:49:46.404
Which, yeah, it sounds like it was kind of a table setter sort of vote to see who would kind of come over to protect public lands. Right.
Kyle Frost
00:49:46.492 - 00:50:38.182
Yeah, it was just the two senators were from Montana, you know, pretty heavy public land states. It kind of has often has some more progressive leaning, like kind of politics when it leans on conservation and public lands often.
I do think that one of the interesting things about this is like one of the reasons that they say they're going to do it is to sell public lands in gateway areas to build affordable housing. Again, we can't believe anything people say. You know, you give an inch, they'll take, they'll take a mile.
But I think it is, it is an interesting thought experiment to be like, okay, we know, get ready for the.
Colin True
00:50:38.206 - 00:50:40.118
Emails, Kyle, before you say I know.
Kyle Frost
00:50:40.174 - 00:51:00.720
Hey, I think it's an interesting thought experiment, right.
Like if they, how much would you give up so that federal workers that work in places that are highly impacted and have nowhere to live or have extremely high living costs have affordable housing.
Colin True
00:51:01.460 - 00:51:03.148
Is Aspen the first one in on this?
Kyle Frost
00:51:03.204 - 00:51:05.560
10 acres, 20 acres, like.
Colin True
00:51:06.980 - 00:51:07.340
Right.
Kyle Frost
00:51:07.380 - 00:51:20.616
Yeah. But it is one of those things where like, you know, there are places that are kind of like capped in.
You know, I am by no means an advocate of selling public land in any respect. But like.
Colin True
00:51:20.768 - 00:51:32.360
Right. You know, it's, it's just who's doing the selling. Right. It's kind of like you just can't trust anybody.
Because I thought it was supposed to be affordable housing and it's like a high rise, you know, like with a bunch of businesses. All of a sudden Exxon opened a.
Kyle Frost
00:51:32.400 - 00:52:37.518
Building, sold a million acres and you're like, you know, and I think that that is the problem here is that you know, there is no history of, of good faith and you know, trust and therefore me and no one else, you know, trusts anyone to make a reasonable decision on things. I don't know what'll happen here. Obviously they floated this a couple times. I believe it was, it may have also been in Project 2025.
I mentioned it was, it was mentioned in some other documentation.
I'd have to go look up where it was but oh, there was mention of it when Trump was talking about creating a sovereign wealth fund that he would potentially use public land cells to populate the sovereign wealth fund. So yeah, I mean, I think it's a bad idea.
I think it's troubling that no one was willing to or not enough people were willing to cross the aisle to prevent it. But there's not a lot of it's.
Colin True
00:52:37.534 - 00:53:01.242
Going to take watch we get people to cross the aisle. It's going to take them thinking like they're not going to get reelected because the economy's in the tank. Like that's all this comes down to.
Like I saw someone even this morning like posting things that I was in agreement with in principle about, you know, the climate change and how that's getting left behind and all of this. I'm like, yeah, but like we, we were in full on like we'll, we'll take a look at the damage when, when we get through this mode.
You know, it's kind of like it's.
Kyle Frost
00:53:01.306 - 00:54:21.394
The whole climate change thing is, is a conversation across not just government but private industry as well.
Like how many climate commitments are currently taking the backseat because every brand is like, hey, we gotta figure out our own house, we gotta figure out how to stay in business and therefore we are dropping climate goals. We are not investing in XYZ to figure that stuff out.
I do think one interesting thing that may come out of the tariff stuff if prices go up is an increase in and resale and secondhand. So I think like this is potentially an interesting inflection point for the circular economy and that sort of thing. So that's interesting.
I didn't think at that time, you know, tersis. Is that what they want?
Yeah, I think this is potentially an opportunity for them if consumers are willing or are going to spend less because prices go up and because the economy goes down and brands are looking for any way to capitalize on retaining, you know, brand equity and engagement and you know, just life of product and that kind of stuff. So I think that'll be interesting to see if we see like an increase in that kind of activity in the.
Colin True
00:54:21.402 - 00:54:44.528
Market, dude, that is, that's first. This is the first time. It's the first time I heard anybody suggest this. And you're absolutely right. Like we have.
What do we talk about all the time is how much stuff we have. Like how we don't really need to make any more stuff. There's enough stuff to kind of go around. Well, guess what?
You don't have to pay tariffs on the shit that already exists in our secondhand stores, you know, so, hey, gear trade. I get all that messaging.
Kyle Frost
00:54:44.704 - 00:54:49.340
The Boulder sports recycler is going to be popping, right?
Colin True
00:54:49.960 - 00:54:55.552
Wow. All right, man. We can wrap it up there. Yeah. Where can people find the newsletter? Where do you want them to seek you out?
Kyle Frost
00:54:55.736 - 00:55:20.150
The easiest way is probably here on their club. There's a big old sign up button. You can also find it by just subscribing to Mountain Gazette.
In general, anywhere on the website there is going to subscribe you to here and there. And yeah, it goes out every two weeks. Feel free to find my email online if I've been too controversial today and send me an email.
Colin True
00:55:21.330 - 00:55:25.322
We'll link it all in the show notes. We'll definitely put the subscription link in the show notes.
Kyle Frost
00:55:25.386 - 00:55:26.910
Always happy to have a conversation.
Colin True
00:55:27.870 - 00:55:42.054
All right, man, well, we'll get to have you back on again soon. Definitely not as long as it's been.
And I know you maybe have a couple things in the works that maybe we'll see you again here in the not too distant future. So appreciate you coming on as always. Love your insights. It's always great for the Rock Fight listeners to hear from you. So thank you so much.
Kyle Frost
00:55:42.222 - 00:55:45.170
It is great to be back. Been too long.
Colin True
00:55:46.590 - 00:57:06.044
All right, that's the show for today. Big thanks to Paul Hendricks and Kyle Frost for joining. We want to hear from you.
Send your feedback on this and every episode episode of the Rock Fight to myrockfightmail. Co. If you're listening on Spotify, you can leave a comment right there on the episode. The Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight llc.
I'm Colin True.
Thanks for listening and here like always is our guy, Chris Demaikz, who you can have as your own personal tour guide of the Punk Rock Museum in Las Vegas in early May. So check that out. And if you do, ask him about the Rock Fight Fight song, which he's going to sing right now. We'll see you next time. Rock Fighters.
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00:57:06.092 - 00:57:21.870
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