Today on the show, outdoor retailer Wes Allen returns to talk about the article he wrote for Rock Fight about the fallout of Altra giving REI exclusivity on the newest version of the popular Lone Peak trail running shoe.
The Altra Lone Peak Plus is the first version of the iconic trail runner to feature a Vibram outsole, and will be available exclusively at REI for five months. This move has sparked significant discussion among outdoor specialty retailers, as it raises concerns about the impact of exclusivity on independent shops and the overall dynamics in the outdoor retail market.
Wes joins Colin, outdoor industry insider Eoin Comerford, and Producer Dave to share his perspective on this move by Altra. The conversation then turns towards the recent CEO shakeup at REI as well as thoughts on gray marketed Cotopaxi products turning up at Costco.
The show of course wraps up with The Parting Shot!
Read Wes's piece on the Lone Peak exclusive by clicking here.
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Episode Transcript
Colin True
00:00:00.400 - 00:03:04.760
Hey, Rock fighters, remember way back last summer, the Rock Fight broke the news that Switchback Spring, the new outdoor industry gathering for education, networking and business, would be coming to Nashville from June 16th to 18th of this year. Well, this month we got some more details.
We got details how the gathering is making serious headway with some of the biggest and best loved brands in the outdoor world. Here are some of the confirmed exhibitors you can expect to see at Switchback Spring.
We've got Arc'teryx, the North Face, Birkenstock, Mountain Hardware, and Darn Tough. You know who else? How about Cotopoxy, Eagle Creek, Helinox, Teva, Rumpel, Scarpa. You want more?
Eagle's Nest Outfitters, Suunto, Clif Bar, Altra, and Toad and Company. Look, there's even more, but we're limited on time.
It's an impressive list and when you combine the who's who of brands with Switchback Springs emphasis on education, community and ideas, the event is shaping up to be the go to meetup for specialty retailers, brands, media and outdoor organizations.
Registration recently opened, so head over to switchbackevent.com to register today and be sure to save me a seat and a hot chicken sandwich over in Nashville. Welcome to the Rock Fight where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree.
This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True.
It's Monday and today the Monday crew here on the Rock Fight is joined by Wes Allen to talk about Altra's lone Peak plus and the exclusive Altra Gabe Rei to sell that shoe. But before we get to that, we have some housekeeping and programming reminders.
Come back to the Rock Fight this Wednesday when outdoor journalist Justin Hausman and I will be talking about the latest headlines to come out of the outdoor adventure community.
Also come back this Friday as gear junkies Rachelle Schrute will be joining Justin and me to talk about the chasm that exists between human powered outdoor activities and hunting and fishing. It's Monday, so you only have one more day to subscribe to Rock Fight's weekly newsletter.
News from the front, head to Rock Fight Co and click Join the mailing list to sign up.
And lastly, if you're new around here, please subscribe to the Rock Fight and join the Rock Fight by hitting that follow button on whatever podcast app you are listening to us on. Also, give us that five star rating. All right, stick around. We'll be right back. All right, today's top story is brought to you by Garage Grown Gear.
And with today's top story being all about some big brands and companies in the outdoor industry, let's talk for a minute about what is new on garage grown gear. There are three new brands that have been added this year so far that you just need to know about. And guess what? They're all food related.
First up, we have the South Indian inspired dehydrated meals from Good Detour. You can also find instant beef and chicken broth from Borvo Broth.
And for all the veggies and vegans out there, you can also find plant based nutrition squeezes from neve.
Head to garagegrowinggear.com to check it out or click the link in the show notes to see all the new stuff over on GGG garagegrowinggear.com go check it out today. All right.
Joining producer Dave and myself, like he does every week here on the Rock Fight is outdoor industry insider and our own Consiglieri, Owen Comerford. What's going on, Owen?
Eoin Comerford
00:03:05.660 - 00:03:11.572
Actually, I'm getting ready to head away from the frozen north down to Key Largo for five weeks.
Colin True
00:03:11.676 - 00:03:14.756
So big backpacking trip in the tropics?
Eoin Comerford
00:03:14.868 - 00:03:15.524
Yeah, exactly.
Wes Allen
00:03:15.572 - 00:03:15.796
Yeah.
Eoin Comerford
00:03:15.828 - 00:03:20.452
A lot of, a lot of kayaking, a lot of, you know, camping, climbing.
Colin True
00:03:20.516 - 00:03:23.022
No alcohol involved, I'm sure.
Eoin Comerford
00:03:23.206 - 00:03:25.130
Not at all. No.
Colin True
00:03:26.790 - 00:03:34.558
Well, and also joining us is the owner of Sunlight Sports in Cody, Wyoming. He's also a Rock Fight returning champion Wes Allen is here. Welcome back to the show, Wes.
Wes Allen
00:03:34.654 - 00:03:39.850
Hey, Colin, it's good to see you. Hi, Dave. I'm Owen. I'm still working on getting that jacket, by the way.
Colin True
00:03:40.150 - 00:03:44.462
Are we, are we, is this four? This is three or four.
Wes Allen
00:03:44.566 - 00:03:45.742
I think it's four.
Eoin Comerford
00:03:45.846 - 00:03:53.150
And it's, it's a robe. I mean, isn't that the, the podcasting that after five you get the robe?
Wes Allen
00:03:53.230 - 00:03:55.722
Yeah, I, A new robe, that would be awesome.
Colin True
00:03:55.866 - 00:03:56.938
A robe. Yes.
Wes Allen
00:03:57.114 - 00:03:58.970
I actually don't own a robe, so.
Eoin Comerford
00:03:59.010 - 00:04:02.906
You know, did I bypass the robe thing because I joined the team?
Colin True
00:04:03.058 - 00:04:16.586
Yeah, it takes you out of the running. Like a cast member of SNL doesn't get it unless they return as host.
So when you start the Consigliere podcast network and you're just guest, you're back as a guest, then you're back.
Eoin Comerford
00:04:16.658 - 00:04:18.058
Oh, okay. Gotcha.
Colin True
00:04:18.154 - 00:05:18.220
So, Wes, we wanted to bring you on the show because you recently contributed an article to News from the Front, which is Rock Fight's weekly newsletter, where you discussed the recent decision by running footwear brand Altra to bring a, to bring a long asked for and demanded product to market through an exclusive window at rei. That product is their iconic Lone Peak with, for the first time ever, a Vibram Outsole. And there's really no hyperbole hyperbole here.
I've owned almost every variation of the Lone Peak. Any miles I've run since that shoe came out has been in Lone Peaks.
Since I stopped running, almost all the hiking I've done has been in loneliness Lone Peaks. And from the beginning I've said, these are amazing. They're my favorite shoes. But, boy, I wish they had a Vibram outsole.
So this is a long time coming.
This isn't just some little feature that your little scab you're picking at here, I guess, to start and really for anyone who's listening and maybe hasn't had a chance to read your article, and for those people, we'll link to it in the show notes or you can head over to Rockfight Co to check it out as well. Could you summarize why you wanted to address the way Ultra brought this new version of the Lone Peak to market?
Wes Allen
00:05:18.650 - 00:07:00.420
Yeah. I'm really glad that you had me on.
And before I really get into the meat of this, I want to say most of the time when I comment publicly or whatever, I try to be very balanced.
But I'm here as an advocate this time because I really see the reason I wrote that article was that I see this particular set of dynamics in this situation as a big threat to specialty independent. And how do you define specialty independent? Generally, they're stores that are owned by families or whatever, and I have a long history in those.
My wife and I own a store that her family started in 1971. And so, you know, a lot of my friends own those kinds of businesses.
And we pay our mortgages and send our kids to school with it, the money we make from them. So, you know, this is one that's near and dear to my heart, and so is Ultra.
The reason that I'm on, what I wrote about was simply this is that in February, REI will start taking delivery on, and in March they'll start promoting an exclusive they have with Altra on the Lone Peak nine plus. And it's going to be a great shoe. The Lone Peak's been around for a long time. Like you said, Colin, we've had it in our store for at least a decade.
It is the most popular model. The Lone Peak is for Ultra in specialty outdoor.
You know, to my knowledge, like in the grassroots outdoor lines that I'm in, it might be getting close to 50% of the units that those stores sell. So it's a big deal.
Colin True
00:07:02.320 - 00:07:07.400
In the 50% of total units that the shop sells are Lone Peaks in Ultra?
Wes Allen
00:07:07.480 - 00:07:07.832
Yeah.
Colin True
00:07:07.896 - 00:07:08.632
Oh, yeah.
Wes Allen
00:07:08.736 - 00:07:45.454
Not somewhere around there. No, no. But for the brand. Right. Like it's a very big deal.
If you talk to the people at Altra and I've spent a lot of time talking to them over the last few months, they'll tell you it's kind of a hiking shoe. They're a running brand. But the Lone Peaks, it is iconic. A lot of people wear it for just short jaunts out.
But a lot of through hikers, it's been, it's been a great shoe. Over the last few years, they have run into some problems with the Lone Peaks. They had a lot of durability issues. Uppers weren't lasting soles.
You know, generally you'd think you'd get five or six hundred miles out of a shoe.
Colin True
00:07:45.582 - 00:07:46.622
That's generous.
Wes Allen
00:07:46.766 - 00:09:41.736
Yeah. But you know, like people are getting a lot less for the, the most recent Lone Peaks.
So there's a lot of demand for some improvements from the Lone Peak 8, which was in the market through 2024, to get to the Lone Peak 9. And you know, a lot of your listeners are in the industry, so they know that we see things 9 to 12 months ahead of time generally.
So when we place our orders, we are, we place our orders and we commit dollars to product. And you know, last June we were in Reno call. I think everybody on this call was in Reno maybe.
And we saw the New Lone Peak 9 and Ultra did a great job of updating that shoe. The shoe that we were shown had an updated upper. So everything basically above the squishy part, under your feet.
That really addressed a lot of the durability issues that we saw with the Lone Peak 8. It still had a proprietary outsole that Altra buys non branded put it on.
And during those conversations at that show, I think the most common comment about The Lone Peak 9 was, hey, this is great. When are you going to put Vibram on it?
So we left the show, everybody wrote their orders and we go forward into November when we have another trade show.
And right about the time that that trade show hit, it started to kind of leak out that there was indeed going to be a Vibram model of the Lone Peak nine called the Lone Peak nine Plus. And it was going to be there at, in the stores in the spring, but it was only going to be in some stores. It was going to be on Altra's website.
And it was going to be an exclusive with REI until August.
Colin True
00:09:41.848 - 00:09:48.152
It's a pretty long exclusive right through the heart of the season. In which you would sell a Lone Peak with a Vbram outsole on it.
Wes Allen
00:09:48.256 - 00:10:25.180
Exactly. So $15 difference, 140 to 155.
But the lone Peak, lumpy customers generally aren't going to care if they're going to spend $15 more to get a Vibram outsole. And so here's the, here's the thing. One, this thing was really a surprise.
We didn't know when we placed our orders and we committed, you know, thousands, tens of thousands of dollars to the Lone Peak nine that we were going to have the second best version of that shoe in the market when we got it. So that was a big deal.
Colin True
00:10:25.880 - 00:11:54.694
So let me just kind of.
Yes, and your thing here too, because the, you know, I've, I, the reason why I actually went and tried the Topo pursuits was because they had a beaver mouth sole.
Because my big complaint on the Lone Peaks was especially at the train I have where I live, running, hiking, whatever, it just eats through the outsoles. And when I was running a lot, I'd go through three pairs of Lone Peaks in a year.
And with still plenty of mileage left in the uppers and the midsoles more so than the outsoles. So.
And also, you start to notice over the last few years, and I've been bullish about Topo on this podcast, I'm not trying to be just a topo fanboy, but just to kind of give some perspective of what Wes is saying. You start to see shops where Topo was growing.
And all I can think of at that point is a lot of the same properties of Lone Peaks and Altra in general. Foot shaped toe box, those kinds of things. But the big differentiator is the outsole.
They've been with Vibram, I think almost if that seems to be getting pretty early on and you know, there's some. I'm sure Altra is getting bigger. It's owned by, it's owned by vf. This is kind of like, you know, the kind of the cool specialty brand.
There's a world where they both could kind of coexist. But I also say, like, you know, when you're looking at the product, you got the Vibram outsold.
There's going to be people like me who are like, ooh, I'm actually interested in trying that. And so to have. And, and that is happening at Specialty Retail, so we can definitely get into it. I'm sure we are.
I'm sure Owen's got plenty of questions and comments about the REI of it all here, but it's also, this is a growing present, a competitive threat happening at Specialty.
And so that kind of plays into, I feel like a lot of the, either the backlash that you're presenting and I'm sure that other, you know, especially retailers are also feeling similar to how you're feeling about this.
Wes Allen
00:11:54.862 - 00:12:11.430
Yeah, I think a lot of people are. And, you know, I'm speaking for myself and there's so many independent retailers that I can't claim to speak for them all.
I can give you my viewpoint, but I think it's a pretty common thing. Topo is a very much an up and coming brand at Specialty, and also.
Colin True
00:12:11.470 - 00:12:13.238
Some upper issues with their shoes, too.
Eoin Comerford
00:12:13.294 - 00:12:15.750
To be fair, I'm still scarred by.
Producer Dave
00:12:15.790 - 00:12:18.650
Their early split toe adventure.
Colin True
00:12:19.710 - 00:12:20.726
Can't get over that.
Producer Dave
00:12:20.798 - 00:12:22.630
Can't get over it. Nope.
Wes Allen
00:12:22.710 - 00:14:02.104
Well, you know, super inside baseball stuff. But the guy who's running and the guy who's got the controlling interest in Topo is a guy named Tony Post and he used to run Vibram.
So there's a very tight connection there. And they make great shoes.
We've been, you know, I know that the folks that work on my floor and generally across the country, we as retailers have been answering questions and answering concerns about the durability of Altra for quite a while.
So, you know, to see this model get updated into the nine and then know that there's a Vibram version of it out there is kind of galling for Specialty.
And I think one of the things that it does, and this is where I really get invested with this, is it takes basically an entire brand that's been in Specialty for a long time and makes anywhere besides the website and REI the second best place to buy the brand. Even if you're Gonna buy the $140 shoe, if you get a REI in March, you're gonna have the choice.
You can spend $155 and get the Lone Peak plus, or you can spend $140 and get the lone peak if you don't want to spend the extra 15 bucks. That is a shopping experience that you're only going to get at one place.
And I'll say, you know, if here's where I'm like, I'm being a complete, you know, specialty guy here, I understand some of the reasons that they would make this choice. Right. Like for rei, it's a win. If I was at REI and I.
Colin True
00:14:02.112 - 00:14:04.552
Was a footwear buyer, it was a good looking po.
Wes Allen
00:14:04.736 - 00:14:09.682
Yeah, man, it's a lot, it's a lot of shoes. It's tens and tens of thousands of pairs.
Producer Dave
00:14:09.746 - 00:14:14.898
To be fair though, it's only one color, which is black loganberry. So that's all you're gonna get.
Colin True
00:14:14.954 - 00:14:16.470
Is it really? Is that true?
Wes Allen
00:14:18.330 - 00:14:20.066
Yes, yes, it's true.
Colin True
00:14:20.258 - 00:14:29.122
That's just showing you, like, how boring the outdoor is. And you actually had me there. I'm like, wait, is that real? That kind of makes sense, honestly. What's loganberry?
Wes Allen
00:14:29.266 - 00:14:35.842
Right. You know, if you're an rei, if you're at Ultra, from those perspectives, this makes complete sense.
Eoin Comerford
00:14:35.986 - 00:15:16.730
So to me it's, you know, it's one thing to do an exclusive. They do happen all the time and seemingly with increasing frequency from, unfortunately, from a specialty perspective.
But the fact that they didn't tell you about it when you placed your order, that to me is, is really a loss of trust, quite frankly. I mean, I've been in those situations, you know, even on the moose cho side where it was going to be exclusive at REI or whatever.
And obviously we'd bitch and we'd belly ache and whatever else at the time and.
But at least we KN knew about it when it was happening and could vote with our wallet, so to speak, or our checkbook around how we were going to support that brand.
Colin True
00:15:17.110 - 00:15:22.370
Well, you could have gone off and booked some topos, right? I mean, you could have, could have reacted to it somehow.
Eoin Comerford
00:15:22.870 - 00:15:37.682
Exactly. And I think that may have happened here. I think some of the comments on Wes's post were basically exactly that.
There are some special retailers that are just canceling their orders and walking away from the brand.
Colin True
00:15:37.786 - 00:15:39.602
And not just lonely Ultra.
Eoin Comerford
00:15:39.666 - 00:16:19.264
They're dropping the brand, like the whole effing brand.
And so, you know, I think actually they did themselves a disservice by not having that conversation at that point because a, they, they lost the trust.
They put their, their, their reps in a really, really tough situation, I think, because also they would have had a better gauge at that point if they had done that. Like, how much are we really, you know, impacting here? What are we getting ourselves into?
Because, you know, there's a potential that they'll be left with a lot of lone peak nines sitting around if they get canceled by all the special retailers. So I think they may have kind of f themselves here. Just a, just a tear.
Colin True
00:16:19.392 - 00:16:43.790
Yeah. And look, I was like, Wes, like you said, we were all in Reno last year. I can confirm I sold the shoe. I was talking to the folks over there.
I know a lot of folks at kind of that VF wing of the. Of the industry from my time at Timberland and smartwool.
And I was commenting how I'm a Lone Peak fan and when, hey, when you can come out with a Vibram Lone Peak, and they're like, oh, actually, this is it. They said it was, you know, it was. They were. Which I just assumed then that they were showing it to folks like you at that show.
Wes Allen
00:16:44.570 - 00:18:20.826
They didn't.
And this is where I go into my Zen place and lower my blood pressure a little bit because I was actually sitting with a guy named Woody who's at jnh Landmark, if not the best, one of the best and highest volume footwear buyers and independent. We asked about the Vibram and we were told, well, maybe, maybe in the future, right? So the shoe was there. You know, I think I.
I have spent a lot of time talking to ultra leadership, Jim McLaren and Joe Toth and the. The regionals about this thing. And, you know, to be fair to them, they really realize the missteps that were made here.
They understand that loss of trust that Owen was talking about. And, you know, it's been characterized to me as a poor communication and a lot of different things.
And they are committed to trying to, you know, get that business back and make it right again. I've had a lot of conversations with them, but, you know, it's not about the reason to come on here. It's not just about Ultra.
It's about the increasing exclusivity thing that we see coming in in specialty retail, in specialty outdoor. It's always been there, right? Like, our friends at Exped had a. Had an exclusive on a pad last fall that, you know, it wasn't their number one thing.
That's 50% of their sales in the channel. It was like a big pad you'd use in the back of the truck.
Colin True
00:18:20.858 - 00:18:21.178
And they.
Wes Allen
00:18:21.234 - 00:19:03.490
They added a handle. It wasn't that they, like, addressed the biggest issue with their biggest product and then gave it to one retailer for five months.
They had it for 30 days, and they added a handle to it. So, you know, I think while exclusives and early releases and all that stuff have been a consistent thing, this one's different.
This one is really changes calculus that retailers do because, you know, generally, if you want shorthand for it, brands are defined by where they sell and retailers are defined by what they sell.
Colin True
00:19:04.350 - 00:20:04.360
And it's an interesting Point. Right. So you have on this call four people who have been in and around outdoor brands and outdoor retail.
You know, we're four old white guys, so this is what we do. Right. But it's.
But the point is, I think all of our experience point to if you said what's kind of a basic strategy for product launches in the outdoor space. You're like, you know, especially retailers get the. Get the good stuff, get the kind of. Get the technical stuff, get to get the. The tastemakers.
We want them to see the people who shop at those shops see that product first. Maybe there's a strategy to roll it out to big box partners, maybe not. We'll see how it goes. But that's where we go.
We go see Wes, we go see J and H, we go see those folks with these things first. That's how we got credibility back at Timberland when I was there back in like 2005 and 6.
I'm sure, Owen, you could probably speak to this, having experienced it on so many different levels between Moose Jaw Dick's and Walmart. But this is a, this is a kind of taking that and turning it. It's on its head.
To your point, Owen, that they didn't even, you know, say, hey, look, we know we've done this with you in the past, but this time around we, we kind of need to go this route. There was no open and honest conversation about that. Recognizing that's typically how these things go.
Eoin Comerford
00:20:04.660 - 00:21:50.870
I mean, what, what I've seen in the past is it generally brands earlier in their, you know, in their life cycle, they.
They want to really establish the brand as being specialty and so they'll sell in and they may have different ass groups like hoka, famously, you know, we've talked about this on the pod. Initially, wouldn't sell, you know, really their key product to outdoor at all. It was run specialty, not even outdoor specialty, run specialty.
And then they had a sporting goods group and then maybe something for mass. And that was the case maybe for the first three or four years. And then they started to break it down and eventually kind of, we sold everything.
All, all the, all the hookers. You know, not not surprisingly when they got bigger and bigger and Deckers and Decker and needed to push.
Push volume, you know, so same thing with Ultra. Would this have happened with Altra Pre VF no, no, no fucking way it would have happened. Right?
I mean, so it's all about the, it's all about the dollars, right? It's all about, you know, that, that meeting, you know, and they always meet with the bigger brands earlier, earliest in the process. Right.
The biggest retailers, rather. So it's, they're in that retail meeting. They probably didn't have a thought to do it exclusively with rei.
But REI is like, yeah, open to buy is tight. You know, you're going to be down 20%. You know, we got to, we got to save money for on. And hoka, they're killing it right now.
And then, you know, hey, we got the, we got the, the nine plus, like, yeah, no, that's cool.
And we'll definitely support you with that, but, you know, we're still looking at maybe down 15, you know, but now if you could, if you can make it an exclusive now, maybe, you know, we could probably get you to back to, you know, plus 10, hit your number. And, you know, suddenly, I mean, that's the way, that's the way that it happens these days with these.
Colin True
00:21:50.910 - 00:21:55.010
Well, they had to make up for that abundance of wool Escalantes. They had, you know, they had all those.
Wes Allen
00:21:55.550 - 00:22:26.510
You know, as someone who used to work for a brand and went into those meetings as a sales executive with rei, Owen described it perfectly. That's exactly what happens. I've been in those meetings with the footwear buyers at rei, and that's, you know, those are exactly what happened.
I think, to your point about new leadership, though, there's a difference between even seven or eight years ago and now. One, all of Ultra's leadership is new. They haven't been there more than two years.
Colin True
00:22:26.630 - 00:22:27.006
Right.
Wes Allen
00:22:27.078 - 00:23:57.840
So they, they came on probably while this shoe was already under development.
And two, you know, when we talk about rei, I think there's a real big differentiation you need to make, because if you're, if you're somebody who wears a green vest on a regular basis, you're in the stores. Like, those people are the same as the independent people, the people that work at my store, they're awesome. They do a great job.
The people who work at your local reis, or listening to this, they are a big part of the industry and they've got all this knowledge and all of the positive attitude and they are trying to do something.
Well, now when you talk about what's gone on in the C suite at REI lately, and I know we might talk about that a little bit later, there are a lot of new people who didn't come up in the industry and they don't understand maybe, you know, they, they're smart and they're talented business people, but they might not understand some of the nuance that goes in.
So making outdoor a little bit different, just like any other, you know, any other industry has their quirks and the things that really make them tick.
And I think, you know, that this was an arrangement made by new leadership at Altra with people who didn't come up through the stores and hadn't been at REI for very long, and the merchants and the executives at rei, and they totally fumbled it.
Eoin Comerford
00:23:58.540 - 00:24:45.530
The other thing to understand here is that about two years ago, VF reorganized and they created this single group for key accounts. Right? And so basically you had this group that would service key accounts across all of VF Corp.
And that group reports to Jen McLaren, who also happens to be the president of Ultra. Right. So I don't think that's totally a coincidence. And I know Jen. You know, I got to worked with her back when she was at smartwolf for many years.
You know, great sales executive. But I do think that came into play here. Just the closeness of that relationship on the macro. VF and then ultimately being part of Altra, too.
Colin True
00:24:45.830 - 00:25:45.170
Yeah, I mean, I think I know that you understand what you're saying about rei. I also think that's the strategy we're talking about.
If you spend any time getting out and seeing accounts, you probably understand it pretty quickly of, you know, the specialty first. And that was something I wanted to ask is like, you know, let's not forget VF's had a rough couple years. Let's just say put. To put it lightly, right?
They just, just had layoffs.
This week I saw someone posting about why is everyone up in arms about rei, their layoffs with experiences, and no one's mentioning the North Face in vf. And my comment back was like, well, to be fair, we've. We've had. We've been through this a few times over the last year.
It's not exactly like new news. Not to be disrespectful to anybody who just lost their job, but, like, it's still going on there.
I mean, how much of this to that point, especially when you have an industry veteran like Jen McLaren running it, is this just Ultra? Like, look, we need a win. VF needs a win. They need that big po.
Like, you know, sorry, specialty guys, we'll take the bad PR right now with you guys, because we want that big PO from rei, and maybe we'll make it up with you the next time around.
Eoin Comerford
00:25:45.710 - 00:26:13.150
Oh, yeah, they definitely needed the win.
And then, you know, I would be interested to understand whether this was communicated down from the top to say hey, listen, don't tell Specialty about the plus at the time.
Or was it the sales folks in the field who basically chickened out and decided not to say anything because they knew that they would just take it right in the chin. Right, so like maybe both. Maybe both. But yeah, so.
Wes Allen
00:26:15.450 - 00:26:17.430
I've heard both versions.
Colin True
00:26:18.890 - 00:26:23.330
So sales reps often not excited about delivering bad news, in my experience.
Eoin Comerford
00:26:23.450 - 00:26:28.142
No, no, no, they're going to, they're going to push corporate under the bus every single time.
Colin True
00:26:28.166 - 00:26:34.570
That's when I would get the call as a sales manager, like, hey, could you, could you give Wes a call and tell them that thing you want me to tell them?
Producer Dave
00:26:34.950 - 00:28:19.016
I think this, though, it really does blend these two kind of trends.
Going like number one, it does upend this normal credibility, build that new brands do and older brands do with new products and that's the filter through Specialty and then play it out. That has been a model that frankly still works and I don't think should go away.
And it's not just outdoor quirkiness of outdoor, it's how any lifestyle identifier product or industry is going to use that model. So it's not that esoteric that these people shouldn't understand it when they come in. So.
But, but also too at the same time and contradictory to that. You know, the sales channel is changing like before, like you said, you know, identified by where they sell. That's just not as true as it used to be.
I mean, it's absolutely still there. But man, that used to be such bright lines between these things and now it's just not.
And so I think this is one of those things where you kind of slide into your. We're playing both sides of it and they end up making a. Just to me, this is an obvious mistake in that regard of just bad press, bad.
It's degradation to your brand. It's like you said, it's losing trust with your retailer.
And you're just chipping away at this idea that Ultra is this top of the pyramid kind of core product for this, for this user. Because right now it's. I mean, it's the walking shoe. I mean, it's right up there with Hoka, at least in terms of the Northwest.
I mean, that's where you see, that's why when I said brown, black and Logan Berry, I'm not kidding, that shoe is everywhere. And it must have some kind of price discount on it because I see that on the most un. Let's just say untrail running bodies you could imagine. Right?
Colin True
00:28:19.168 - 00:28:36.920
Yeah. I don't know if this is a mistake.
I think I can see like the backlash with Nike in the last year or so and like their strategy going awry and moving away from Specialty and the fallout there.
I mean, this is a, you know, there's variations, I feel like, of this exact thing that have happened, that if you're paying attention at all, if you're not paying attention, then it's like, you know, what are you doing?
Producer Dave
00:28:36.960 - 00:28:58.430
Like, this goes back to though, that, like you said, the. Did it come from up high or is it the sales reps not wanting to talk about it? Look, look, they knew what they were doing wasn't right. So that.
That to me is just straight up. That was not.
That might have been accidental in the way it comes about, but, you know, the moment it was uttered, everyone was like, oh, that's probably not what we should do. But they did it anyway.
Colin True
00:28:58.510 - 00:29:32.186
That's an interesting segue into the next thing. Wes, I wanted to ask you about because, you know, you mentioned earlier, you're part of the Grassroots Outdoor Alliance. You're a member there.
In fact, you used to lead the goa.
I mean, it feels to me, and I've talked to some other folks as well, like there's the ability there with the GOA to wield much more power than maybe the GOA currently does. Right.
You know, why isn't there more of effort to use the sort of the combined voice of Specialty with the organization like the goa, so that a brand like Altra would really have to consider what they're doing, that it's not just going to be, hey, one off conversations that, like, hey, you're going up against the might of specialty here because you guys bring that might to the table.
Wes Allen
00:29:32.378 - 00:29:50.278
Well, I think I, I think there are a couple of answers to that. One, in this case, Grassroots didn't get the opportunity to do it at all because nobody knew.
Like, they found out retroactively like the rest of us after the. The deal was done and the POS were written by everybody.
Colin True
00:29:50.374 - 00:29:58.022
Not to interrupt you. That's kind of my point. Right. Like, if they had kind of felt like they couldn't with the goa, maybe they are a little bit more upfront with it.
You know what I mean?
Wes Allen
00:29:58.206 - 00:30:23.300
I think that's also new leadership at Ultra. Right. This might be a bit of a learning experience.
I'd also say, you know, it's probably, it's probably a mistake to think that that stuff doesn't happen, but the politics of the way that Grassroots goes out and has these conversations are Generally one on one calls, not pressure leases. That's just the organization style.
Eoin Comerford
00:30:23.720 - 00:30:31.280
So I spent some time at ISPO. I was on a panel with the CEO of Spork 2000. Right. I don't know if you're familiar with those guys.
Wes Allen
00:30:31.360 - 00:30:31.808
I am.
Eoin Comerford
00:30:31.864 - 00:31:48.250
It's like about 3,000 stores, 3,600 stores across Western Europe.
And, and they started out with basically kind of a GOA model many years ago, but have really expanded it now to a level where it's a much more coordinated approach. Because GOA is independent retail with a big underline under the word independent.
I mean it's a bunch of characters but from a brand's perspective it's much easier to get that one big PO from an REI than it is to get a bunch of little pos from the 200 or whatever odd doors at Goa, let alone the thousand odd doors of independent specialty. But if GOA could come to the table with brands and be able to say, hey listen, come to us as GOA with a sell in program. Okay.
And we, you know, we'll negotiate the deal, we'll put it out there, we'll put it out to our members, we'll see how many get on board.
At a macro level, negotiate this thing all together, you're going to get a consistent go to market approach, a consistent pop and you can really blow this thing up by really bringing the buying power together and not just be this sort of loose collection of stores the way it is today.
Colin True
00:31:49.750 - 00:31:51.250
Let's call them folksy.
Wes Allen
00:31:51.750 - 00:32:52.620
Folksy. Yeah. I mean that is a very logical way to look at it. And it's been tried several times and it's never ever succeeded.
I think the thing, this is super inside baseball. But I think the thing to think about with grassroots is it's truly more of a co op than just about anything else.
I know in that it's, you know, it's not structured as a co op, it's a corporation. It's owned by 100 shareholders, I'm one of them.
And it, it exists to serve the retailers interests and it's turned out that it very much does not exist to tell retailers what to do. And I think, you know, the folksy, whatever, there's a lot of strong personalities in there.
There's a, well there's a, there's a lot of people in there like me that have, you know, self identified genius syndrome and don't want anybody else to tell them how to run their business.
Eoin Comerford
00:32:53.080 - 00:32:54.060
That's fair.
Wes Allen
00:32:54.440 - 00:33:50.840
And you know, the one thing I would say, and I think it's a really valid, it's a really valid proposal, Owen, because. And I think it's so valid that I've been involved, I think, in three different efforts to do that with brands.
But one of the major strengths of that group of retailers and one of the major weaknesses of it as a unit is that everybody's very close to the ground and very reactive to what's going on in their particular market.
And it just turns out that when you've got a bunch of people that have stores in the Southeast and people in the Northwest and upper Midwest and all that kind of thing, the key to survival or the little incremental moves that you can make as an independent retailer that walks into your store every day instead of being a chain and people have been very resistant to that. I don't think it's a bad idea. It just hasn't worked.
Colin True
00:33:51.260 - 00:34:57.363
Like I told you, today's top story was presented by Garage Grown gear. Head to garagegrowngear.com to check out the brands that are working to keep the outdoor industry interesting and innovative. Do it today.
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Colin True
00:35:38.470 - 00:36:19.694
Well, we've got you. Speaking of, you've said on the show before that we need a healthy REI in order for the outdoor industry to thrive.
You know, you've worked for REI in the past. You're at specially now. You understand the role they play in sort of the greater outdoor retail. Welcome back to Rock.
Two big moves coming out of and that was track just this past week. A change has been since 2014. Do you feel like we have a healthy REI approach to making fit feel? It's like nothing else.
They make some of the best basics in the business is retailers all new branding and new packaging on the way. The time is now to get in on a refreshed shock wall for spring and fall.
Wes Allen
00:36:19.782 - 00:36:20.814
Very well regarded.
Colin True
00:36:20.862 - 00:36:22.090
Let's get back to the.
Wes Allen
00:36:22.630 - 00:37:46.378
You know, I've heard, I heard Owen talk about her a little bit. Her reputation is she's very skilled, very intelligent.
If I was superstitious, I would say that having the first name as, same first name as, as Mary Anderson, who is REI's like iconic co founder who just kind of a kickass person in general is like a really. I think that's, that's awesome. But no, I, I think that they're not healthy.
I think that, you know, they're struggling to break even and they're, if they do break even, they did it in such a way this last year that it really just sucked margin out of their, their vendors. You know, they, they demanded a lot more from the vendors. They got a lot more promotional support.
That is, some of the vendors paid for the discounting that REI did. They got more margin that might get you to break even, but it's not a long term play.
What the new person's going to do when she comes in, I don't know. But I do know that in order to have a healthy rei, they need to do things differently than they've been doing them recently.
And changing the leadership is a good start.
Colin True
00:37:46.514 - 00:37:55.590
Oh, and you said you had some feedback from our emergency podcast the other day. Now that we've had a couple of days to digest the announcement of the change in CEO, what do you got?
Eoin Comerford
00:37:55.970 - 00:39:12.058
Well, so this is from some REI executive insiders. First, on the question of whether this was actually how much of this was Eric's decision? The feedback was ultimately it was his decision.
And that really plays out in the fact that he's sticking around for a few months to have an orderly transition. Was there maybe some encouragement from the board? Perhaps. But ultimately it does sound like it was definitely his decision.
The other big question I thought more so for everybody was does this mean the end of the restructuring?
That is, they let him take all the arrows with experiences in the layoffs and the restructuring and then, you know, Mary Beth comes in as the white knight. Or is it she's going to come in to do even more restructuring. And it does sound like it's the former, that the kind of, the worst of it is over.
That's the current thinking.
Now, obviously, once she gets in, gets her feet under her and gets the lay of the land, maybe, you know, she might see some things where she's like, no, no, no, there's still work to be done here. But the current thinking, I think as of today is there isn't going to be major Upheaval coming, or at least more big restructuring type stuff.
Colin True
00:39:12.154 - 00:39:24.842
Is there like a meeting of the outdoor consiglieres that you attend to get this information? Or is it like you're like, are you a wartime consigliere? Peacetime? Where are we with things right now? How do you approach.
Are you kicking people in and breaking thumbs to get this info?
Eoin Comerford
00:39:24.986 - 00:39:32.570
You know, people. You get some chits, you're in the business long enough, you get some chits, you get to.
Producer Dave
00:39:32.690 - 00:39:36.202
He's way too vice versa, Colin. That's another side of the organization.
Colin True
00:39:36.266 - 00:39:37.060
I don't want to.
Producer Dave
00:39:37.210 - 00:39:42.928
Right. He's the muscle side. He doesn't need to do that. He's. No, no, his hands clean.
Eoin Comerford
00:39:43.024 - 00:39:47.984
If you have to break thumbs, then you've already lost, Colin. I mean, it's really more about projecting power.
Colin True
00:39:48.152 - 00:39:50.640
Oh, shit. Comerford's here. All right, what do you need? What do you need?
Producer Dave
00:39:50.680 - 00:40:26.300
You know, I would ask, though, one question. You know, you've got. We've seen the leadership kind of rolling over for the last couple years.
This is just kind of the final or the biggest pin in that. And how much, at this leadership model perspective, is there a culture issue? Right? I mean, in the sense that how they buy, what they.
Where they're playing. I mean, clearly we've seen the, you know, the rise of apparel versus versus equipment. That makes sense.
You know, in terms of way they've done that, they've leaned into their brand. That all makes sense. But at the same time, you go to some of those areas and, man. And I made a joke about the color palette.
Eoin Comerford
00:40:26.460 - 00:40:26.828
I'm.
Producer Dave
00:40:26.844 - 00:40:33.260
That's. That's real. Like, you go in there, and it just, in some cases, just feels so monotone also.
Colin True
00:40:33.300 - 00:40:35.612
Feels very. Doesn't it? I feel like it's always, well, the.
Producer Dave
00:40:35.636 - 00:40:48.312
Brands that they're buying, too. How do you get into that and what kind of decisions they're making to bring in what brands and on what kind of cycle?
I just feel like there's something stuck in that as well. And I just don't know if this is addressing that.
Wes Allen
00:40:48.496 - 00:43:19.002
You know, I.
I think from my perspective, and still having a bunch of friends at REI and being in their stores a lot and looking at their financials, I think the thing that you're going to see when you get a healthy REI is you're going to see their gross margin come up. And it's not just on the. It's not just because that's a number.
You know, I saw data services, tracking of REI's foot traffic into Their stores all rolled up.
And you know what you see over the last two or three years is you see consistent drops in their traffic coming into the store during non sale periods and you see consistent jumps in their traffic during sale periods.
And I think that's a, that is a symptom of a cultural issue where I think the senior leadership at REI needs to figure out how to attract customers without having to have everything on sale.
And I think from a cultural perspective, like when I worked there way back in the day and Sally Jewell was running the place and everything, REI was an attractant to people because of who they are and what they sell, what they stood for.
And you hear it in public statements lately from the, well now, I guess soon to be former leadership there that people don't want to buy full price anymore.
Well, REI has such a history and such a culture and such potential to sell people things because people are inspired rather than because they have a coupon. That's where the cultural shift will change.
If they can stop the erosion of their gross margin, if they can get people back in on a day to day basis without having to send them a sale catalog, that's when I'll know they're getting a little bit, a little bit healthier. And to your point, Colin, that starts at the top. That, you know, that's not about executing in the Manhattan beach store.
That is about how you talk to your customers, how you position your product, and how you understand the dynamics that lead to a healthy outdoor retail industry.
Colin True
00:43:19.176 - 00:44:04.994
Last thing we do talk with you here, buddy. COD Epoxy and Costco. There was a. We released some code epoxy, Puffies show up for sale at Costco.
We talked about it on the show and a listener actually reached out who's also a COD Epoxy rep and mentioned that this was a mistake, allegedly by a distributor. You know, Owen mentioned to me in a separate conversation he's seen like this happen, seen things like this happen before, but I was curious again.
As a specialty retailer, the first thing I thought of was someone like yourself, Wes, where it's like, you know, hey, someone rolls in and you've got a $200 puffy on the floor and like, great, Hey, I just saw, I just saw. For 30 bucks, that makes your day pretty good, right?
So how do you, how do you handle like both your customers on the shop floor, but also a shared vendor who, you know, even mistake or otherwise, the product's still there. So how do you handle something like this as a retailer?
Wes Allen
00:44:05.042 - 00:45:36.972
Well, I think I Think you have to really look at it from a historical perspective. And I'm going to say, Colin, you know, I used to work at Chaco and we had this happen to us.
It happened to me as a sales manager at Chaco that we got gray marketed into Costco and they showed up in all the Colorado, Colorado stores. And that was not a fun three or four weeks answering the phone. It sucks on this, you know, but we hear that every time.
And I will tell you, there's another brand that I'm not going to name that has a consistent presence in Costco. And when they first showed up there a few months ago, they told everybody that it was a gray market. And it, it indeed was not.
It's just their sales program and they have a consistent system presence there.
So the, the way that you answer that is, you know, if, if you truly believe it's gray market and it's in there, you're probably going to adjust your POS a little bit. You're going to try to make sure that you're not competing head to head with that stuff.
But if it's a consistent thing and that is an income stream for that brand that you believe in, I gotta tell you, my store, we're out. We're done. Done. We're, we're going to box up the stuff and send it to the accounts receivable thing at the brand.
Because if that's where they're going to be, that's fine. It's a very valid business strategy to sell to Costco. People make a ton of money at it. But I can't make money selling things that Costco sells.
Colin True
00:45:37.036 - 00:45:41.468
You're saying in general that's your philosophy. That's not your, you're not doing that in this case.
Wes Allen
00:45:41.604 - 00:46:02.518
No. With cut epoxy.
No, I, I know that they got gray marketed, like we don't do a lot of code epoxy, but I would look at that and I've had other brands that Patagonia's had that happen before and everything. And you don't drop them if you think it's like a one off grain market, international distributorship to back end or whatever.
Eoin Comerford
00:46:02.614 - 00:46:13.818
These things do happen because especially when the dollar is strong, these international distributors. And one thing that people don't know is Costco only takes about 14 points of margin.
Colin True
00:46:13.994 - 00:46:15.898
I was just about to say that.
Eoin Comerford
00:46:16.034 - 00:47:07.842
Right. And so they run a really tight margin so that they can make it worthwhile for their consumer. And they're always looking for brands. Right.
To further solidify that this is A great place to get great stuff.
And so if you're an international distributor, if the exchange rate breaks the right way, you actually can make more money selling it to Costco than you can actually selling it into retail in your region. So it does happen. But I think to Wes's point, it's when it keeps happening, then you're like, okay, this is bullshit.
I mean, we all know of one particular zombie brand that did that for a long time. The one that was interesting and denied it, obviously.
The one that was interesting to me was when Hydro Flask's CEO came out and publicly said, oh, yeah, yeah, we've got great sales velocity now that we're in Target and Costco. So I go, okay, well, I guess you're not going to be in Specialty much longer.
Colin True
00:47:08.016 - 00:47:14.622
Listen, we respect saying the quiet power out loud around here, right? I mean, they're just like, they're coming right out like, hey, we're a Costco brand now.
Wes Allen
00:47:14.806 - 00:48:35.826
That. And you know that. That was reading that led to a very clear decision on our part. Something I wrote about on social media. Yeah, yeah. You know, I.
I will just add a little bit of color around that. Like, one of the more remarkable Outdoor reach, outdoor retailer meetings I had was the August after we got gray marketed in at Chaco to Costco.
And we've just done all this stuff.
Like our owner at that point sent somebody to, I think, Lakewood, Colorado, and wrote a check and bought all of the Chacos that were on the floor there and whatever. But a couple months later, I go to show and I get told there's somebody there to talk to me.
And I walk out and they're the Costco buyers and they say, hey, listen, we saw really good sales with your product when we had it. I was like, I bet you saw really good sales in Lakewood.
I bet somebody bought them all at once and they had a whole pitch ready to go for why we should sell stuff to them. And, you know, it's a compelling pitch when they can write huge sales orders.
Maybe you don't have quite as much money as you want as a brand, or maybe you're a publicly traded company like Helena Droy. I mean, it can be really good business and it can make a lot of sense.
Colin True
00:48:35.938 - 00:48:43.314
It's like REI showing up to Altra and saying, hey, we really like that Vibram Lone Peak. We're gonna write you a really big check.
Producer Dave
00:48:43.442 - 00:48:45.950
It'd be a shame if we didn't order it.
Colin True
00:48:48.330 - 00:48:53.310
Guys. Did you see the amount of the PO though? Did you see the amount of the po.
Wes Allen
00:48:54.330 - 00:49:30.650
Right? And that's. At the end of the day, that's it. Right. Everybody is making. Making decisions in their best interest to sell their stuff.
The one thing I would leave you with is the people who made the decisions, people who make these decisions at a lot of the big brands have been in leadership positions for very short periods of time. The reason that people like me, we get upset is my wife's family's been in the same Little store for 50 years.
We have a different horizon, we have a different timeline than somebody who's going to be an executive at a publicly traded company. Three years.
Colin True
00:49:30.770 - 00:49:42.778
All right. Hey, Wes, thanks for joining, man. We'll keep working on the robe for you. We got to get you.
We'll go back and count, I think at least one more, I feel like, before we're there. So appreciate you coming on. Join us providing some insight on this super fun.
Wes Allen
00:49:42.834 - 00:49:44.830
Thank you, guys. It's nice to see everybody.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:49:46.610 - 00:50:49.820
The outdoors is not a niche. It's way bigger than that. The outdoors is essential to our lives, essential to who we are as a species.
And as the world continues to get smaller, as new advances in technology push us to the limits of the planet, the. The outdoors is more important than ever. Open Container is here to explore this new idea of the outdoors.
We'll strive to uncover stories about creativity, adventure, conservation, politics, and the people who make the outdoor space so vibrant. The world is full of anxiety right now. Climate change, politics, cultural upheaval. But fear not, there are answers in the outdoors. I'm Doug.
I'm schnitzpahn. And on this show, we will talk to people who are looking to nature to find the solutions we all need.
We will be having honest conversations about how the outdoors can change us, how it heals us, how we learn from it, and how we can build a better world from what we learn about being outdoors. So please join us, open the container and find out what's inside. Let's get some.
Colin True
00:50:52.930 - 00:51:01.070
Open Container launches January 21st. Find and follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Chris DeMakes
00:51:01.490 - 00:51:03.950
It's time for a party shot.
Colin True
00:51:05.250 - 00:53:25.740
Okay, we got a solo parting shot today. It's just me. It's just Colin. I'm just here by myself. And for today's parting shot, I want to tell you about why I love movies.
Well, not that why I love movies, just that I love movies. I've always loved movies. I don't get to watch as many as I would like to because I'm busy making you guys podcasts and whatnot.
But every year for the past several because of my love of movies, whenever Oscar nominations come out, I make sure that I watch all 10 Best Picture nominations before the ceremony.
If you go back in the archives of the Rock Fight podcast, you'll find episodes of the show where I've talked about this before and nominations were announced this past week. Of the 10 best picture noms, I had only seen two. I saw Wicked and Dune Part 2 2.
I'm up to three now having watched Conclave and looking at the remaining films. We have Emilia Perez, the Substance Nickel Boys, a complete unknown, I'm still here, Anora and the Brutalist to go.
But knowing what I know about them from just the discourse I've read, the things I've read and seen, I'm going to make an early prediction and say I'm putting my money behind a complete unknown to win best Picture. Just biopics are a safe bet for these things.
It seems like like all of these other best picture nominees, of all these other best picture nominees, it has the least amount of baggage. I I just think feel like that's going to be the film that emerges from this group.
I will check back in with a pre ceremony parting shot and prediction once I've seen all the nominees. But in the meantime send me your Oscar predictions. Who do you think is going to win Best Picture?
Send it to myrockfight gmail.com we would love to get an all Oscars mailbag going before the show. Justin Housman, also a movie guy so we could do, you know, a quick segment on the Oscars.
So send us your feedback, send us your predictions, send us who you want to see winning to myrockfightmail.com and we can wrap it up there. Guys. Be sure to come back on Wednesday to hear Justin Hausman and I run through outdoor adventure headlines.
Come back on Friday for our conversation with Rachelle Schrute. Check out the latest from the Rock Fight Podcast Network. Open Container, the podcast hosted by Doug Schnitzbahn.
You can find that wherever you're listening. Listening to this podcast and the Rock Fight is a production of Rock Fight llc. Our producer today was producer David Carsad.
Art direction provided by Sarah Gensert for Owen Comerford and our guest today, Wes Allen. I'm Colin True. Thanks for listening. Here to take us out, it's Krista Makes and he's here to sing the Rock Fight Fight song. Will see you next time.
Rock Fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:53:25.820 - 00:54:22.170
Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight. Rock Fight Rock flight.
Welcome to the Rock bike where we speak our truth, slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree.
We talk about human powered outdoor activities and pick bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture, music, the latest movie reviews, ideas that aim for the this is where we speak our truth. This is where we speak our truth. Rock fight, Rock fight, Rock fight. Welcome to the Rock flight. Rock fight, Rock flight. Welcome to the Rock flight.
Rock flight. Rock fight, Rock flight. Rock flight, Rock flight. Welcome to the Rock fight Rock fight, Rock eight.