Today on THE ROCK FIGHT (an outdoor podcast that aims for the head) Colin is joined by the founder of LIVSN, Andrew Gibbs-Dabney, who shares his compelling journey from personal struggle to building an outdoor brand focused on sustainability and quality.
Andrew discusses the challenges of launching a new brand in a saturated outdoor market and highlights the need for innovation that aligns with environmental responsibility. The conversation also explores how LIVSN's approach to product development merges sustainability with functionality, ensuring that their offerings resonate with a younger, more environmentally conscious customer base.
Lastly today is the two year anniversary of the first episode of THE ROCK FIGHT! So Colin ends the show by reading TRF's first episode, Ski Resorts Are Not Outdoor, as today's Parting Shot.
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Episode Transcript
Colin
00:00:00.240 - 00:04:07.600
For years, outdoor brands have shouted to the skies, each claiming their gear is better, tougher and smarter than the next. They bragged about seams and fabrics, about features you didn't need.
And when the world started caring about the planet, those same brands tried to have it both ways, making the same old stuff but slapping on a green label to soothe the conscience. But Livesyn isn't like the rest. Livesyn was born to help you strip it all down, to live with intention. Own less, live more.
It's a simple creed, but simplicity is what matters most. We've been timeless since before we even had a name. Lifson grew out of a deep hunger for freedom, a love for this earth and the people who walk it. We don't obsess over the gear.
We focus on the life the gear lets you live. Retailers think on this. How many brands do you carry that are cut from the same old cloth, filling racks with sameness?
Couldn't your floor use something different?
A brand that doesn't just sell clothes, but sells a way of being lifts and gear is built to last, to be repaired, to stick with your customers for a lifetime of trails, peaks and adventures in the Ozarks. We have an honest, gritty sensibility with a sharp edge of style. It's what happens when the love of the land meets a modern streak.
And if you're wondering, livesn't founder Andrew Gibbs Dabney can explain it better than anyone. Look, here's the straight talk. We believe in Liveson enough to put. Our name on it.
Send in your fall 25 preseason orders by January 15th. Mention this podcast and you'll get the Rock Fight preseason special, a clean 2% off stacked on top of Lipson's own preseason program.
Discounts don't wait. Stock the brand that's burning hot in the outdoor world, the brand that's here for the long haul. Be a Rock fighter, not just another retailer.
Liveson. Own less, live more. Welcome to the Rock Fight, where we.
Speak our truth, slay sacred cows, and sometimes agree to disagree. This is an outdoor podcast that aims for the head. I'm Colin True, and today we have a founders story.
Unlike many you've heard before, today I'm talking with Andrew Gibbs Dabney of Lipson. But before we get to that, hey, have you subscribed to Rock Fight's weekly newsletter? If you haven't, you're missing out. This past week was amazing.
We had original Justin Hausman content. You had original content from me. We had some funny stuff in there.
It was great so what you need to do is go to rockflight Co and click Join the mailing list so you don't miss the next one which comes out next Tuesday. Yeah, Christmas Eve. That's the next newsletter. Sign up today. Lastly, if you're new around here, we'd love it if you subscribe.
Then join the Rock Fight by lobbing a stone at the follow button on whatever podcast app you are listening to us on. And also give us that five star rating. All right, guys, let's start the show. Unless you skipped ahead. And if you did, how dare you.
You just heard me read an ad for outdoor apparel brand Liveson. And today's guest on the show is Andrew Gibbs Dabney, the founder of Livesyn.
And the reason Andrew is here isn't because he bought some ad spots on the Rock Flight. Look, I'm not that easy. No, there were two reasons why Andrew was here, and the first is the origin story of Livson.
Now, I can't stand when podcasts have on a guest for no reason other than just having on a guest. I don't want to hear about your youth and what led you to get to this place.
Look, I want to hear a point of view when I listen to a podcast and why your guest either supports or disagrees that point of view.
But when I heard Livson's origin story, which is tied to Andrew's life, I heard a true outdoor origin story and one that matches where the outdoor industry is heading. And the second reason Andrew is here is because of where we are in Liveson's life cycle.
It allows him to offer an informed opinion on what an outdoor brand should be here in the outdoor industry as we head into 2025. So that's the first part of today's show.
But then I also invite you to stick around after that conversation because today, guys, December 20th, it's the two year anniversary of the Rock Fight. And I realized today that the very first episode of the show would make for an excellent parting shot.
So I hope that you will stay to enjoy a retelling of the debut of the Rock Fight. But we're not there yet. Welcome back to the Rock Fight, where today it's the modern outdoor origin story with Andrew Gibbs Dabney. All right, well, we are joined now. By the founder and CEO of Lives.
And Designs, Andrew Gibbs Dabney. Andrew, I gotta tell you, I always want to switch the D and a G. I don't know if you've heard that before.
Like whenever I'm sending you an email, I want to write Andrew Dibs Gabney. I don't know why, but anyway, welcome to the show, Andrew.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:04:08.420 - 00:04:26.954
Thanks for having me on. It's better than, like, Gibbs Dobner, Gobs Dobny, which I get from time to time. So, yeah, it's understandable.
Growing up with a hyphenated last name has its own challenges. Like, finding my name in any sort of database is hard. Like, with the government, they're like, let me look under Dabney. I'm like, you can.
Colin
00:04:27.042 - 00:04:28.314
You might find isn't going to work.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:04:28.402 - 00:04:35.370
Let me look under Gives. Like, I can't find them. Like, yeah, it's because it's Gibbs Dabney. But, you know, you learn to. You learn to get around it. I spell it out a lot.
Colin
00:04:35.490 - 00:05:21.260
Well, thanks for coming on the show, man. This is kind of an odd rock fight, right?
Because, you know, kind of one of the points of differentiation for the show is we tend to ignore origin stories.
I mean, nothing kind of annoys me more on other podcasts than hearing from a guest why the outdoors mean so much to them, and then having to sit through, like, 15 minutes of, like, their story, you know, to figure out why they got to. Why they got to.
But when you and I first spoke and you told me your story and how it directly played into not only why lives and exists, but why Livesyn is what it is, I'm like, okay, well, this is a great story. We got to share this with our listeners.
So it's obviously incredibly moving, but it's also an outdoor brand origin story the likes of which, you know, I don't think I've heard, but really fits into that. That mold. So. So let's just kick it off, man. Like, you know, would you mind sharing with us, you know, how Livesyn came to be?
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:05:22.280 - 00:05:34.144
Sure. And yeah, I remember that first conversation where I. I don't even think I saw you on video, but I could.
I could, like, feel your eyes glazing over for a while until. Until I started telling you the story and all of a sudden you perked up. So what does this guy want to talk about?
Colin
00:05:34.232 - 00:05:34.980
Geez.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:05:37.720 - 00:12:42.950
But sure, I mean, it's somewhat. I'll make it as short as I can because it starts where I was born. And so I was born with a medical condition where my feet were actually inverted.
It was pigeon toed, but the point where they were faced backwards. And I was born down in Louisiana. And at the time, that meant that you had to have multiple surgeries.
So between the ages of 2 weeks old and 12 years old. I had eight surgeries on both my feet, seven on my right, eight on my left, rather, just for accuracy.
But what that meant was I was always in hip casts. I was in the hospital.
I was told that I wasn't going to be able to run fast or probably wouldn't be able to do sports or all these things that have limited mobility. And I didn't think about any of that as a kid.
When I got those casts off, and even before I got off, got them off, I was outside, I was running around, I was riding my bike, I was climbing rocks. I was. We lived by a park. We moved to Arkansas when I was really young. I lived by a park called Wilson park in Fayetteville. And I was just down there.
I was that kid that the parent. My dad would come out and go to the top of the hill and just go, andrew. You know, and I'd come home for dinner and, you know, and go back outside.
And really, I think a lot of what comes next was built on that experience, just not letting things get in my way. And like I said, it wasn't some, like, persevering philosophy I had. It was just being a kid. And.
And this is relevant because whenever I went to college, I started experimenting with drugs, more than your typical ones that grow in the ground. So I was experimenting with pharmaceuticals and things like that. And I ended up finding OxyContin and opiates in general.
And I believe, you know, because of my past as a kid being on morphine and all those surgeries, it just felt right. So my first experience with that was the classic warm blanket. Everything was comfortable, everything felt good.
And I very quickly went from recreational to addiction with that. And over the course of the next few years, my life really spiraled downhill.
I went just to daily use the habit that was very expensive and dangerous, and ended up getting in a place where I somehow robbed a liquor store in my hometown. Now, it was nonviolent. I was amateur. It was, you know, a first offense. And all of these.
These things that ended up playing in my favor, but I still did the thing. And so I ended up going to rehab in between the act and the court date and getting sober.
And while I was getting sober, I was looking at 40 years to life in prison. And that's what I was trying to square my head around, right, is 40 years as a minimum.
And in reality, that means eight to 10 on good behavior in state prison. Right? And so I was like, okay, if I'm going to spend, you know, a decade of my Life locked up, how do I maximize that time? How do I learn something?
How do I get out in my, not much younger than I am now, in my early 30s and do something with my life and not have made that 10 years wasted.
And that sort of mental space is where I started realizing that the way I was living my life was not really in line with the values that I was trying, that I believed in. And I believed in doing things, I believed in being outside, not letting things get in your way, having experiences.
And I got caught up in a more, in a more hedonistic consumerist lifestyle that I think a lot of people do with or without drugs, where I was just acquiring things. I was just having kind of vapid experiences and really in this, in this mindset of not really building anything productive.
And so I spent about a year between rehab, jail.
I ended up, did go to prison, was able to get out early through a military style boot camp program which also gave me a lot of time to think because it was all of the sitting around board but none of the combat training of boot camp. So just the BS without the useful skills.
And when I got out, I really, this, this world, these thoughts really congealed into this idea that I wanted to build something. I wanted to do something of meaning for the world that wasn't just purely selfish.
And I wanted to go out and have experiences because when everything's taken away from you and you're handed a towel roll with a toothpaste inside, doing a toothbrush, that's all that belongs in the world to your name. You realize that everything can be taken away from you, but nothing you've ever done or thought can.
My dad actually told me something on the way and he goes, I forget exactly what he said, but it was something along the lines of they can lock you up, but they can't ever lock your mind up. I didn't know what to do with this at the time. I went back to school, ended up, you know, got back into college.
I was readmitted in the University of Arkansas and I was going to be an outdoor recreation and sports management major. My goal was actually to go to like Keystone or Breck or somewhere and like manage the mountain. I wanted to be mountain knobs manager.
I found that job and saw that it was well paying and I got to just kind of be in ski and mountain bike and live that lifestyle and that was my goal. Ended up working for another outdoor apparel company, lifestyle more called Fayette Chill out of Fayetteville.
Some of my buddies from college Started this brand and I did everything, for the most part, throughout the course of five years, I was ops, warehouse, E Comm, retail, hr. Ended up being the COO and then the CEO.
And so I saw a lot of the moving parts of building a brand, learned a lot of what to do, learned a lot of what not to do. Really formed the kind of ideas that didn't really know what I was going to do with.
But whenever I moved my next chapter, it was how do I take some of these learnings and apply it in the way that I would do it?
How do I take this philosophy of life that came from my time being locked up in those realizations, in my love for the outdoors, plus a little bit of knowledge, that perfect little. I always talk about this.
There's a pinnacle of knowledge and ignorance where you start a company where you feel just enough knowledge, where I can do this, but you don't know enough to say, this is not a good idea. And that's when companies get, get started. And I was right there. And so I started writing down the concept, right?
This ideas, these, these ideas of sustainability, what that really means, what it means to build a product that, that deserves to exist, what it means to be a good company in your community, how it means to be, you know, sustainable with the capital S, right? And like, and how that's really not attainable. Like sustainable is not attainable, right? Like it's a, it's a goal, it's not a state of being.
And then I found the name, right? This idea, this word lives Nutare, which means one who lives life fully. And that's what really crystallized it, right?
Because that became the logical starting point or really endpoint, rather like, that's our customer.
I'm building language people, Swedish building for people that want to experience life and not necessarily just acquire things, but to do that, to spend your life outside, to have a minimal amount of belongings, you really need high quality things that are very versatile, that are built intentionally and last a long time. And so that became the blueprint for the idea, the design principles, the. The values, the mission that we still are really true to today.
Colin
00:12:43.490 - 00:14:04.720
What gets me excited about this is because I talk so much about, you know, my time working in the industry. And producer Dave's here too, folks, and I'm sure he'll chime in on a lot of these things too. And it's, you know, there is such a.
The history is founded on innovation and new ideas and creating things in order to enable outdoor activities. And, you know, if you've listened to the show for a long enough time.
You've heard me probably, you know, go on and on about how people are still trying to do it the way we did in like the 80s, 90s and early 2000s, and all those problems are basically solved. And, you know, it's kind of like, oh, is there innovation left? It's like, yeah, there is.
It's just you have to look at things differently and so to hear your story. And that's why I say it is an outdoor.
You know, it's such a good, like, just true outdoor origin story because you're identifying true needs and approaching just a different set of problems from what, you know, the founders in the 60s and 70s and 80s did, right?
And, you know, and I don't want to sit here and, you know, on a show that usually we're looking to pick fights with people and say, like, just blow smoke up your ass.
But I kind of look at it and say, like, no, but a brand, like what you're creating is sort of when I look ahead at what the industry can become or hopefully will become, this is the kind of stuff that we need, right?
These are the kind of innovation, innovation stories are going to got to set the bar for the next generation of brands and hopefully the industry, you know, it's one thing to say, hey, we, we do things sustainably and look at our hang tag that says that we do. And it's like you're saying, no, no, we're going to actually live that and how this brand is founded.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:14:04.800 - 00:15:59.302
Well, I appreciate that. I mean, the in your your feel, feel free to throw a rock or two. We'll get there. We'll figure something out.
For this one thing that, that going to prison and going to boot camp and all that teaches you is kind of how to, how to be a little bit resilient or knock a blow off. But I mean, someone, someone famous along the way said something that stuck with me, right? And it's never too late for great, right?
And if your goal is to build something great and build something meaningful, it doesn't matter what industry you're in, doesn't matter how crowded it is and how many incumbents are, it's not too late.
Now, I do have a bone to pick with brands that just go to the factory floor showroom and say, here's the 20 products that I want a shell and a fleece and a base and here, throw my logo on it. I don't think those should exist because there's nothing inherently unique about that. But the bar is not much higher than that. The bar is.
You're trying to do something a little different.
You either have a customer that's different, an aesthetic that's different, a use case that's different, or something that you're going to put on there that you're going to really stand behind. And you wanted to make it right. If it's great, then there's room for it. And that was. That's. That's still what I believe.
Whether it be our brand and whether we make it or not is kind of irrelevant. Like, there's always room for people that have a good idea and want to build something of quality. And I think the room.
I would have loved to go to Europe and get a rugby jersey and bring it back to the United States and say, this is innovative, right? Hell, yeah. Like, to make this in the 70s would have been amazing. That's not what we're doing anymore. Right. Every product category has been made.
And so we're really more interested in refinement and versatility and try to take. How do we take what's old, blend it with what's new in a way that hasn't been done before, to make something special and make it great, ideally.
And I won't say that everything we make is great yet, but that's our goal.
Colin
00:15:59.446 - 00:16:05.356
Okay, so what is great and, you know, what is for. For Libsyn, what is great for us.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:16:05.478 - 00:18:09.216
We try to focus on refinement of details that you don't know to look for, but you learn to love over time. Right. So those are things like, do you use your pocket deep enough? Is it the right shape? Are they in the right spots? We use seam construction that's.
That's not convenient to be built, but are stronger because we do it so, like, flat felt inseams aren't the most convenient thing to make in mass production, but they come out with a nice hand and a nice function and they're strong and they also just look good from the inside. Right. And these things, over time, you don't really know necessarily which product is going to become one you love.
But we really try to hit this ideal called emotional durability. Right. Because there's physical durability of a product, and this is a huge tie back to sustainability and what it really means.
You can make a very durable product.
You can take that to the extreme, but if it doesn't become special to you, if there's nothing special about it, that makes it something that you love, then it's not going to be kept. It's going to get thrown away. It's going to be donated, which by the way means thrown away.
And it's going to go away because there's nothing special about it. And so we try to look at this from a very user centric point of view to where like the zippers work.
Well, the buttons are in the right spot, the refinement is there, it's got some heft to it. You can tell that it's high quality. And then the other thing is from a feature set, you mentioned this, like, we don't. We're not feature light.
We kind of have a lot of things, we have a lot of pockets.
But we try to put the features that people actually use without the gimmicks that are just there for marketing so that you have the versatility to use these things for hiking or biking or going to work and all these things. But you don't have all the stuff to track from the day to day use. We don't put everything in orange or lime green. You know, it's kind of tonal. Right.
Because. And there'd be a little bit of marketing and branding advantage to that. Like I. E. Cotopaxi. Right. It's very noticeable.
But are you going to wear that for decades? Maybe that one shell, but not your entire wardrobe of color blocked bright prints. And I don't mean to throw a shade of Cotopaxi.
I think I have some of their stuff. It's just I think that somewhat detracts from the versatility and long term use of certain products.
Colin
00:18:09.388 - 00:18:46.120
No, I'll throw a rock at coat epoxy because I've done it before in the show. I mean, that's kind of the thing. And I think they do, they do, they stand for something.
Like what they're doing is different in a way, but when it comes to the product. Yeah, they're a vibe. Right. I mean it's like when that color blocking puffy isn't popular anymore, it's like, well, what do you have next?
Because if I want to get a black one, I got a million other choices. So. But yeah, I think that kind of the fact that you're relying on durability and versatility, again, huge like words in authentic outdoor brands.
Right.
Those are two things that are super important and to kind of create color palettes that are going to last longer is kind of goes in line with durability and versatility.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:18:46.200 - 00:19:11.490
Well, and that's where I get to is like sustainability starts at the design process. Right. Like it starts with the color palette you choose, the chart starts with the materials you choose, and then it goes all the way to end of life.
And that's where you make decisions about is it recycled, is it organic, do you use plastic packaging? Which. The answer to that is yes, yes and no. Right? You do all these things that are, that used to be the capital S sustainability.
Like we're sustainable because we use recycled polyester.
Colin
00:19:11.570 - 00:19:12.002
Right?
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:19:12.106 - 00:20:06.150
Well, it doesn't necessarily matter. If that's a fast fashion piece that goes out of style on six months, you can make it out of, you know, hand spun organic cotton by bespoke farmers.
But if it's like this super big, you know, parachute shirt in bright pink and yellow, then it doesn't really matter. And so it's like those things are ingredients to a better, less impact product.
But it really goes from the design all the way to how you care for it after it fails. Because clothing fails. Right. Like, we don't say that we're the most durable product. Like I said, you can buy that.
I can go, you can buy like a double layer 14 ounce denim pant. Right. It's probably going to last longer, but that brand is going to, they're going to repair it for you. How was it made?
Like, did it hit all these other boxes? And like checking boxes is one thing that's not the answer to it, but it is. Like, it's important that you look at it from cradle to grave.
Colin
00:20:07.110 - 00:20:36.024
So you are launching or you have launched your brand into the crowded outdoor marketplace. Right. And we'll get to that bit in a second.
But I'm curious how you blend sort of the ethos of the brand within the traditional way that outdoor apparel brands have succeeded. Like what the roadmap to kind of commercial success. Right. You know, so, you know, the brand did start on Kickstarter.
So how has crowdfunding played into your growth? And then also kind of how does that kind of led to the current state of the, of the brand crowdfunding?
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:20:36.072 - 00:22:33.870
It was always the plan to go to Kickstarter first, because having a little bit of experience, not a lot at a small company, knowing that you can't go to a store with an idea, you can't go to a store, a retailer and say, I've got this new brand that no one has heard of and get any sort of credibility for that. Right. And also it's very hard to hit production scale with no money. Right. So how do you solve for this? Right? You go, okay, crowdfunding.
And Kickstarter is a little Bit not quite as big as it was, but at the time there was a lot of hype around it. And so where can you go to get several hundred people all at once to buy something upfront to go build production and.
And also where do you go to find people that are that passionate and early adopters that are that willing to give you feedback?
And one of our design principles is really to iterate, right, to get feedback and iterate on products over time, which is I had spent a little bit of time in a tech company accelerator called techstars early on.
Just wild kind of coincidence, but part of the funding that got us here and I was battling all these tech founders about like they could put a product out and then within two weeks have it be wildly different based on feedback. And like, okay, well, apparel, we can't do it that fast, but we should be iterating, especially as a small brand that doesn't know.
And Kickstarter is a way to get people that are very willing to give you their opinion. And there's a difference between like, you know, like sunsetting a product or like just a new season, a new SKU and iteration.
And like, that's actually kind of a pull and tug with outdoor that's not talked about a lot is that a lot of people don't like the product to change because once they have it, they don't want to see a new one. Sometimes, and especially in a retail environment, if it's changed, then it's old and it doesn't mean it's less than and it's really not.
And so there's a difference between iterative small designs and like a version thing that we're actually still working through. Like we're on version three of our pants and we had to do that because Pocket visibly changed.
So an iteration went to a version because we wanted to make sure that the customer knew that it's not the same. And by the customer, I really meant the store. And it's one of those things that we're figuring out as we grow, how to do that.
Colin
00:22:33.910 - 00:22:49.770
Well, you also, though, made some really interesting internal choices as well. Like when we were first talking, you told me this and I was like, I don't understand why everybody doesn't do this.
Because you have blended the role of head of product and head of sustainability. Can you talk about coming to that decision? And like, what has the payoff been?
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:22:50.470 - 00:23:35.556
Oh, it's been great. And I don't know if I told you this or not the first time, but it was really A requirement of this individual.
So when Abby came on, she was working for his contract as a contractor doing some product design and she had sworn off, she was about to quit and had sworn off making anything else and said, you know, I can't stomach building anything else, like it's not sustainable. And so I said, hey, would you want to come on and lead our product development?
She said, well, I'll do it if it can be part of my title and part of my daily, you know, weekly duties and part of my time to be head of sustainability too. And that's not going to be a lip service to it. Like we're going to actually make change. And I said, okay, like that was a no brainer to me.
Like I said, it was part of the value.
Colin
00:23:35.628 - 00:23:36.760
It is a no brainer.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:23:37.260 - 00:23:56.432
Right. And we didn't want this thing that happens where the product development team and the sustainability team are at odds. Right.
But if you go into it from the beginning, like I said, with this design aspect, designing for sustainability, designing for lower impact, which is the better way to say that. Right. Because there will be an impact no matter what.
Colin
00:23:56.536 - 00:23:56.896
Yep.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:23:56.928 - 00:24:27.588
And inherently making something is not like it's more sustainable to not make anything. Right. And so this has been part of what we've built up over the course of time. And with her, we've finally refiled as a public benefit corporation.
We're in the final stages of certification by B Lab to be a certified B Corp. And our mission there is to have a product and systems, rather product and systems that have function greater than their impact. Right.
It's not to have no impact. It's not possible.
Colin
00:24:27.724 - 00:24:28.772
It's not possible.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:24:28.956 - 00:24:48.744
We accept that we're going to build something, but we want something to be built to be more valuable than the impact that it makes. And that's been hurt. Like. Right. We're trying to do that from design all the way to end of life.
And that's what an enclosed repair program, which I know we have a lot to say on that. Right. But like stuff like that does help because downstream effects of clothing is the, some of the biggest.
Colin
00:24:48.872 - 00:24:49.208
Right.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:24:49.264 - 00:24:56.776
It's the biggest chunk of impact. And so you need to talk about it. And it's not just to do it, you know, it's, it's, it's real.
Colin
00:24:56.928 - 00:25:55.640
Yeah. And it's just.
And anybody from a brand who's possibly listening to this, like, please take this to heart because this was a thing that I noticed when I was during my time at Polar Tech, when I would go, you know, to all of these apparel brands and see how the structure is arranged. And you'd have some brands where, man, there was great coexistence between sustainability and product.
And they maybe butt heads from time to time, but you could see that it really mattered then.
There's other places where, you know, the sustainability director came, was walking down the hall, like, the product directors are guiding, like, didn't want to hear it. I don't want to hear what that person that's going to. They're going to put. That person's going to put a squash on my plans.
And then there's even other places, probably more than we like to admit, where it's a largely ceremonial title. Director of sustainability is a largely ceremonial title. It's like, oh, yeah, no, we care, like, not that much though. Right.
You know, if it's going to get in our way of making the stuff that we want to make. So this is just.
This needs to be the future, frankly, is the way I look at it. It's like, yeah, it just makes sense to blend these. And I love the fact that it wasn't even your idea.
It was like a person who wasn' a product director saying, no, and I have to have both roles if this is going to work. And, you know, there's. There's something in there for sure.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:25:55.940 - 00:26:02.972
Right. And the reality is it does stop things in its tracks sometimes. We'll talk about something we want to make. We want to make. Right?
Colin
00:26:03.076 - 00:26:03.404
Yeah.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:26:03.452 - 00:26:30.156
And then as it filters through and this is the point of these design principles that we have. It's. It's to give guardrails, it's to be a filter. So we say, hey, we want to make this, and then we go, okay, does it need to exist?
Do we have a point of view on it? Can we make it once again, lower impact?
You know, can we, you know, all these things, and if the answers are no, or there's enough no's, or one big no, then we don't make that product. And that happens a lot. And so there's a reason why product developers don't always like to hit their sustainability person.
Colin
00:26:30.228 - 00:26:30.508
Sure.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:26:30.564 - 00:26:32.588
But the thing is, that's a good thing.
Colin
00:26:32.724 - 00:26:33.180
Yes.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:26:33.260 - 00:26:46.320
Right. That is what we want. If it was just all rubber stamped and is it organic or is it recycled go.
Then you're not really having an impact or you're not harnessing your impact. Right. Well, your words.
Colin
00:26:47.940 - 00:28:33.684
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Today, we're talking about a lot of differentiators, what you're doing at Livesend. And again, this is why I really wanted to have you on the show.
Because recently on the Rockfoy we've been talking about the difficulty of growing or introducing a new brand to the outdoor marketplace place. Given the breadth of existing brands and products.
There are just so many brands that are all mostly doing the same thing that it's hard to stand apart, especially when some of those existing brands have the clout and financial resources that they do. So, you know, he said 2020 was kind of like the official get up and go for liveson or, you know, pushing five years into this.
Like, how have you kind of competed to grow to the point where you have grown to this point? Obviously you're not, you know, you're not where you want to be, I'm sure, ultimately.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:28:33.732 - 00:28:33.916
But.
Colin
00:28:33.948 - 00:28:39.276
But to get to where you are, how have you sort of navigated the larger outdoor market?
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:28:39.428 - 00:30:55.480
Look, I won't say it's been easy, right? We would be way bigger and farther along in five years than we are now if everything went exactly to plan. Right?
There's a reason why it's hard, and it is those incumbents that make great products. And as I said, you have to make something great, I believe, to stand out. And the thing is, you can stand out quicker by making something flashy.
I think, right. You can make something incredibly new and bright or innovative.
Now, whether or not it's actually a good product will mean whether you grow really fast and die or if you grow slowly and sustain.
And we're, I'm much more interested in that second path where we build something great that is actually versatile and people want to own for the rest of their life. But it takes a little longer to hit breakthrough because it's not so bright, it's not so innovative.
And what we've really gone back to over and over and over again is try to make the best product and try to have a true connection with our customer. Right. And that's you mentioned like that, you know, used to be innovation that brought you in.
A lot of what we bring to the DNA of the way we do things is like old school business mentality. It's like when you call us, you're going to get us on the phone.
It's really easy to outsource customer service as a small company and I would say it's probably more financially appropriate.
But it's never been something that I've been able to stomach because if you call and get a call center or someone at our 3pl logistics that doesn't really know anything about the product, you're not going to have an experience that cultivates a repeat customer. You're not going to build a connection to your customer, you're not going to get that product feedback.
And so we just keep hitting on building a good product, trying to be good to our customers, trying to be a good member of the community. And by community that means both our local community, but also like the broader outdoor community. Right?
Like there's a part of playing this game that's for lack of a better word, can you bleed longer than the other guy as a new brand, right? Because like brand, a real brand that is meaningful I think takes time and repetition. It takes time and market, it takes familiarity.
And you really can't do anything to get over that without hundreds of millions of dollars of investment. Right. Or some way to pound it in people's minds.
And I think that by coming and doing something well and keeping showing up and being good people, that that's what will be the, the thing that works and that's really where we get, where we go back on.
Colin
00:30:55.600 - 00:31:23.220
Do you have any insight of who your primary customer is? Are they younger folks? Are they us, like you know, middle aged white guys? Is it kind of standard outdoor fare?
And I ask because you Know, that's if you look at where we need to be in terms of how we make stuff.
There's a lot of consumer education needs to happen and I've always kind of defaulted, like, until it's regulated, it's really going to take a long time for that to happen. So I'm kind of curious, are you starting to see younger folks gravitate to your brand based on the values of the brand?
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:31:24.040 - 00:32:16.272
We are, I mean, demographically we've been historically pretty male because of our product collection. Started with men. Now we have a pretty decent, you know, a decent and growing selection of women's items.
Thanks to Abby, by the way, coming on and really leading that and redoing it from a woman's point of view. But yeah, like predominantly it's, it's male. We skew younger though.
And this message that we talk about, the thing that's really landing with younger people is the repair and well worn, like what we call lived in stuff. Right. So it's either worn, return or repaired. That is bringing in our younger customers.
They know where they can go to buy new things, but they're more interested in building, buying things that have stood the test of time, that don't have that impact.
And so I think that the more and more we talk about that over the last really 12 to 18 months, like, we're getting much more of a younger customer base and that way.
Colin
00:32:16.376 - 00:32:34.208
And then from a revenue standpoint, this is, I think, is an interesting thing because the disease of more tends to come in, right.
The more and more success you are successful you are, the more and more you can kind of justify, like, wow, you know, we could, we could make some more stuff and continue to grow that.
So like, how, I mean, how big do you think liveson should be from, like, from a revenue standpoint or, you know, and how big do you think it could be?
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:32:34.344 - 00:34:01.700
That's a good question. I think we should be a 50 to $100 million brand. I think we can be a billion dollar brand. Right? And when you ask me that, it kind of brings up the.
It's the S word, right? We talk about this a lot with sustainability. The S word is should, right? Like you should do this. It's fair. We try to avoid that, right?
Because it's very, it's. You're talking down to people, but like, yeah, it's.
I think at 50 to 100 million, we have a brand that is at a scale that supports a really high quality of life for its employees, has the ability to be giving a Meaningful impact back to its community and even nonprofit support work, and can achieve a good financial outcome for myself and the other people involved with the business. Right. Like, that's a really good spot. Can we be a billion dollars? I absolutely think so.
I think this idea of own less, live more, right, which is our mantra, is really the only idea that, like, works as an antidote to modern life. Because everything else you're going to get is buy now, be busy, be distracted.
But the outdoors always has this nice ability to be like, no, look, go outside, bring less with you. And so I think from a.
From an ethos point of view, I'd love to see us go to a billion dollars on that ethos and have that become the zeitgeist of consumer culture. Now, will it happen? Don't know. But you could be a billion dollars by only capturing a tiny percent of the market, right? You don't need everything.
We don't want to be Nike.
Colin
00:34:02.280 - 00:34:11.451
That's true.
I hear a billion dollars, and my thought goes to like, well, that's if your average price point's 100 bucks, that's like 10 million things that you're making every year just to get billion, you.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:34:11.475 - 00:34:14.359
Know, billion just isn't what it used to be.
Colin
00:34:15.379 - 00:34:16.571
I just sort of like, does it.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:34:16.595 - 00:34:16.779
Does.
Colin
00:34:16.819 - 00:34:25.639
Does it just in the nature of. Producing so much to support a billion dollars in revenue, does it sort of fly in the face of the what the brand was founded on look?
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:34:26.339 - 00:34:31.723
That's a good question. And it's not. It's a valid piece of pushback, right? That's a rock to throw because it's valid.
Colin
00:34:31.771 - 00:34:32.219
We got there.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:34:32.259 - 00:35:34.334
We figured it out. We got there.
The Kool Aid that we drink, that I drink, that I believe, that we believe at our heart, at our company, is that by us making more things, others make less. Right?
If you buy a pair of pants from us that last three times as long and then we repair it for you three times, I would love to get to a billion dollars that way. Right?
Because then that's three to nine other pairs of pants or jackets or shirts or whatever that you didn't have to buy from a company that doesn't care. Right? And that's the thing you kind of mentioned a few times in your podcast. But outdoor is part of fashion, right?
And do we have a responsibility to do it better in order to push how we make things right? And I think that's yes, because if someone buys lives in versus Patagonia, right, It's not that big impact.
But if they buy A lifetime of lives in versus a lifetime of shein. Hell yeah. We'll get to a billion dollars that way. Right. And we'll have an impact. And the thing is, this is like a multiple trillion dollar industry.
A billion's a drop in the bucket.
Colin
00:35:34.482 - 00:35:35.158
Right, Right.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:35:35.214 - 00:35:41.126
So like, it does sound like a lot, but there's so much clothing being made that if we get to a billion, I feel good about that.
Colin
00:35:41.278 - 00:36:27.460
Well, and even my pushback is very inside baseball, because it's a good point.
The last thing I want to ask you about is the broader fashion category because I think it often we get so kind of hung up on the outdoor of it all that we. It does get forgotten. And that's why I'm a bit of a broken record about it on the pod. Right.
Because we are part of the fashion category, a category that produces like hundreds of billions of units every single year, most of them that are not mostly a not sustainable way. So do you think, you know, the outdoor brands or even the outdoor industry have a elevated responsibility to, you know, quote unquote, do it better?
And how we push to make things and to overall make less simply to show the rest of the fashion world. That like, hey, here to lead.
Right.
To say, hey, here's how it should be done, and we can be profitable and we can make interesting things and all that, but also we can do it in any better way than we're currently doing it, broadly speaking, in the fashion category.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:36:28.560 - 00:38:19.862
Yeah, I absolutely think we should.
And the reason why I think we should continue to is the same reason why we do already is because the products that we're building are to go outside and enjoy nature. And one of the biggest environmental polluters is apparel. Right.
So we have this obligation to build things that don't destroy the environment in which we play. And both moral, but also business. Right. You don't have a business case if you destroy our natural places.
How are you going to sell your waterproof Gore Tex jacket if everything is polluted to hell and no one wants to go there? So it's not just moral, it's economic.
And honestly, that's one of the biggest pieces that I think is important about why we chose to pursue B Corp certification is because it makes you people think that B Corp means that you don't care about profits. That's not actually what it means.
It means that you weigh the profits also with your stakeholder and your mission, your stakeholders, your value chain.
And I think that it's an existential crisis for companies that don't because you're going to get to a point where the company has no right to exist because you've either destroyed the environment you work in or you turned off every customer or you've exploited your way to success. And I don't think this train is stopping recent political environment or not. Right.
Like, we're going to keep moving towards better business over time because we don't really have much of an option. And that's why companies. We're in Bentonville. That's why companies like Walmart have Project Gigaton and have hundreds of people on sustain teams.
It may have started altruistically. Funny enough, Yvon Chouinard came to Walmart to start the Sustainable Apparel Coalition, which started hig, which gives us our impact data. Right.
So there's a reason why these people do this. But if it's not a business case, it's not sustainable. Does that make sense?
If it's not going to be profitable, it's not going to lead to more sales, then it's not sustainable in the economic sense, which means it's not sustainable in the environmental sense. So these things have to go hand in hand.
Colin
00:38:19.966 - 00:38:20.608
Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:38:20.704 - 00:38:30.032
And it's just we, it sounds dirty to talk about product or not. Product, profit, we talk about sustainability, but it has to be part of it. Like, the business model has to work.
Colin
00:38:30.136 - 00:39:20.810
I think that's an outdoor industry problem. I think that is sort of like every. Everybody kind of. They're like, we, we. There's certain things we just don't want to talk about.
And I think this is one where again, we need to stand up and lead. And I don't know if it's the OIA or if it's just the brands themselves, but kind of like I expected you to say yes to my question. Right.
Like, of course we should in this case. But it's also, you know, people are kind of happy living inside their own little silo and not talking about it.
When, you know, we have Sophie Benson, who's an environmental journalist. Come on. Who focuses on the fashion industry and she's generally looks at what we talk about mostly.
Like, you guys don't really have as many problems as I see over here in the broader fashion world. Right.
We tend to do it better in the outdoor space on our own because of, like you said, it's protecting our wild places and we shouldn't be harming the environment through the stuff that we make. But I just think there's, there's more of a. We can have a bigger voice in it. Is Kind of the frustration I have.
I think there should be a bigger voice coming out of the outdoor space because of that. Because we do know.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:39:21.190 - 00:39:51.822
Right.
And if you want to wade into a little bit of a controversial area which is good for your podcast, usually I've gotten, I've gotten pushback on this before when I've said it. And I, But I don't think it's entirely untrue, is that we have a privileged position. We have a privileged customer base. We're privileged companies.
We're. We have high price point items. We have customers that buy them. Right. And there's a whole nother issue right there. Right.
That we can, that does deserve some talking about. But because that is the reality that we're in, we have an obligation to do these things.
Colin
00:39:51.926 - 00:39:52.414
Yep.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:39:52.462 - 00:40:07.678
Right. The S word. Right.
It's hard to tell somebody who's having trouble making their next week's grocery bill for their children to buy sustainably and not buy from sheen shirt. Yeah. Then like, that's not the problem though. Like that.
Colin
00:40:07.734 - 00:40:08.046
Yeah.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:40:08.078 - 00:40:26.710
The problem is some someone who makes $300,000 a year buying 300 of those shirts in a six month period. Right.
Like, and so if we are in a spot where we can command this price point, where we have these supply chains that are built on not exploitating, exploiting people, then yeah, I think we should have an obligation, we do have an obligation to do better and be a leader.
Colin
00:40:27.010 - 00:40:54.000
All right, man. Well, we can wrap it up there.
We can definitely, definitely want to have you on again. We have other things obviously we can dig into. Really appreciate. Love the story.
Love, obviously how it, you know, your, your personal story has played into the development of your brand and your products. And I truly believe you guys are going to be leading the charge here. So thank you for spending some time with us and for coming on the show.
And everybody go check out liveson.com go. To your lipson dealers and buy some stuff. Let's go. It's the holidays. Buy some. Buy some good stuff for, for the. People in your family.
Andrew Gibbs Dabney
00:40:54.120 - 00:40:57.180
Appreciate it. It was, it was a pleasure being on here. Thank you.
Colin
00:40:59.480 - 00:46:16.980
And that brings us to today's parting shot. And for today's parting shot spot, I'm going to do a retelling of the original rock fight, the very first episode that debuted on December 20, 2022.
And today, guys, I'm picking a fight with ski resorts because while resort skiing is an activity that is done outdoors, it is not an outdoor activity. All right.
The past 40 years have evolved to the point where most people consider activities done out of the house as outdoor. More simply, if it's outside, it's outdoor. Lines have blurred, the hardcore has softened, and for the most part, that's a good thing.
But to longtime veterans of outdoor sports, spotting something that we consider outdoor is a lot like spotting porn. We know it when we see it.
There are new activities like swim running that may try to prove their outdoor worth, but our bullshit detectors are finely tuned. We know what is and isn't outdoor.
And while it may seem sacrilegious to disparage the sport, that no doubt led many of you listening to this to become outdoorsy yourself Guys, resort skiing is just the worst. Strapping sticks to one's feet to traverse the snow is as ancient as it is special.
It's been around for centuries in various forms, serving as a mode of transportation before becoming the neutered version of the activity that you find today on hills around the world. If you've ever gone backcountry skiing, you've spiritually gotten in touch with your ski bound ancestors.
And you know the absolute wonder that skiing or splitboarding can provide.
Climbing uphill to explore snow filled forests, earning turns on empty terrain and searching for stashes of powder is one of the great joys one can discover in the backcountry. But most people who ski or snowboard will never know this. For them, the only experience they'll ever have will be a curated affair at a resort.
And that's the root of my beef. Because resort skiing is now seen as any other outdoor activity.
YouTube is littered with homemade videos of people hooting and hollering on ski lifts and incredibly well made shorts. Deifying ski resorts has the bastion of a life in the mountains.
And before I go any further, let me tell you I love skiing at a resort and believe that it has a place in our outdoorsy lifestyle. I got to spend four years living in a ski town and those were hands down the best four winters of my life.
You catch the right place on the right day and it is impossible not to have fun. But there are several reasons why ski resorts are without question not part of the spectrum of outdoor adventure sports. Firstly, lift lines.
More times than not, skiing at a resort involves the single most horrible thing anyone ever has to do and something that never should happen when pursuing fun. And that's waiting in line. The only time waiting in line should be part of a day outdoors is waiting for a beer when the bar. Is a little crowded after you just.
Got done proving your worth on the trail and second, and I'm inspired by one of the great characters in the history of cinema, Randall Graves, when he astutely said to his co worker Dante Hicks, this job would be great if it wasn't for all the fucking customers. After you've wasted your time with all of those people in the lift line, you now have to deal with them on the actual ski runs.
And unless you know the mountain inside out, meaning you're a local with a season pass, you better have your head on a swivel because that helmet you're wearing is there to protect you from other skiers more than anything Mother Nature can throw at you. You. Lastly, and most egregiously, you gotta pay through your nose to go beyond acquiring the tools of the trade.
I resent any activity that costs money. And in this regard, resort skiing is no different or better than slapping on some khakis and dedicating yourself to the game of golf.
If I drop 900 bucks on a surfboard, or 3,500 bucks on a mountain bike, or hell, even $120 on a pair of trail runners, I've paid my entrance fee and the waves and miles are all free. Resort skiing is the most successful attempt at monetizing the outdoors we've ever seen, and most of our community is down to support it.
There is a significant population of outdoorsy minded individuals who still view mountain biking in wilderness areas as a deal breaker, but we're all okay with cutting down chunks of forest and setting up ski lifts that run off climate change accelerating fossil fuels. That's okay, guys. Resort skiing just isn't outdoor. Backcountry skiing is outdoor. Kayaking is outdoor.
Mountain biking, outdoor surfing, outdoor hiking, backpacking, trail running, all outdoor.
Those activities encourage you to acquire gear and skill and go deep into the backcountry, using different modes of transportation to see the best of what nature has to offer. Resort skiing is an amusement park ride masquerading as an outdoor sport. And you know, rides at theme parks.
They're a ton of fun, but they're also a distraction. You don't really learn anything from going on them. Resort skiing is a fun, expensive day outside.
On the best days, you get to run laps of deep powder, hopefully with good friends, eat high calorie food on the mountain, and drink high calorie beer when the lifts close. That's a damn good time. But it is not outdoor and I'll throw rocks at anyone who disagrees with me. All right, that's the show for today.
Please send all of your feedback on this and every episode of the rock fight to my myrockfightmail.com the Rock Fight is a production of rock fight llc. I'm Colin true. Thanks for listening. And once again he's here. Kristen makes he's here to sing you a song.
And that song, well, it's the rock fight fight song. We'll see you next time. Rock fighters.
Chris DeMakes
00:46:27.090 - 00:47:12.640
Where we speak our truth slay sacred cows and sometimes agree to disagree we talk about human powered outdoor activities and big bites about topics that we find interesting like pop culture music, the latest movie reviews ideas that aim for the head this is where we speak our truth this is where we speak speak our truth.
Rock fight Rock fight Rock fight welcome to the rock fight Rock fight Rock fight welcome to the rock fight Rock fight Rock fight Rock fight Rock fight Rock fight Welcome to the rock fight Rock fight Rock fight.
Colin
00:47:14.700 - 00:47:15.260
Rock fight.