Today Doug opens the container with GG Edwards, the CEO and founder of Gnara.
Doug opens the show highlighting how the outdoor industry was built on the back of solving problems for those looking to go outside. He also details how the industry attracts entrepreneurial individuals looking for ways to blend a career with outdoor pursuits. This mindset is what has allowed the outdoor industry to become what it is today.
Doug is then joined by Gnara founder Georgia Grace (GG) Edwards and the conversation goes into the broader implications of inclusivity within the outdoor industry, emphasizing how addressing specific needs often results in enhancements that benefit a diverse clientele.
Doug & GG explore the ethos of the outdoor business landscape, looking at how prioritizing problem-solving over mere profit generation is a principle that is epitomized by Gnara's mission and how, at the very least, everyone has the ability to "show the fuck up".
Click here to pre-order the Burton Bib featuring the GoFly technology.
Thanks for listening! Open Container is a production of Rock Fight, LLC.
Sign up for NEWS FROM THE FRONT, Rock Fight's weekly newsletter by heading to www.rockfight.co and clicking Join The Mailing List.
Please follow and subscribe to Open Container and give us a 5 star rating and a written review wherever you get your podcasts.
Send your feedback, questions, and comments to myrockfight@gmail.com.
Click Here To Choose Your Favorite Podcast Player Or Just Click The Player Below!
Episode Transcript:
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:00:00.160 - 00:07:26.820
Today's episode of Open Container is presented by Oboz.
Many of you already know Oboz, that plucky little brand from Bozeman that stood up in 2007 in a crowded footwear space and said, there's room for me too. An upstart outlier with a weird name, roomy toe box and well built offerings for committed hikers.
It's a combination that has attracted a loyal following for 20 years and we're excited to partner with Oboz because they are committed to shining a light on the core activity to offer all our outdoor pursuits. Hiking. You know, hiking. The thing we all do but no one is talking about. We are unified by hiking.
Oboz loves hiking and that's something I can get down with. Over the coming months, we'll be opening the Container and getting on the trail with our friends from Bozeman. Oboz love hiking.
Welcome to Open Container. I'm Doug Schnitzpahn. I'm a journalist, writer and overall lover of the outdoors.
I've fought wildfires, reported on national politics, published magazines, and my dirtbag credentials are in order.
On this podcast, we're going to have an open conversation about culture, conservation policy, business issues that matter the most to the outdoor community. Let's get some One of the reasons why the outdoor industry has been so successful as a business is.
And wait for this, it's not really about making money. Of course, all business has to be about making money in the end.
But what separates the outdoor industry from people just looking to make money is that these businesses are looking to solve a problem. And that is why they end up making money. Think about it.
The roots of the outdoor industry as an industry were people like Yvon Chouinard and Royal Robbins, who created Climbing Protection not so that they could go into business, but so they could climb the routes they wanted to climb.
In Yosemite, likewise, pioneers like Klaus Obermeyer created an apparel business, sort of because he wanted to make a better jacket, but also because he wanted to keep the stoke of skiing alive for the rest of his long life and never have to take a real job. Follow that up with people like Larry Harrison, who lived like a beat poet, and Greg Thompson, who cut his teeth in Yosemite.
They cared about creating sustainable business models and trade shows, and an industry was born where before there had just been a niche of sporting equipment. So this is the way we would have it. Those of us who have tried to stay in the outdoor industry for a long time simply want to keep being dirtbags.
And there's A way to do that and continue to be a functioning member of society as well as respond to the needs we see out in the wild. Think about some of the best products we have in the outdoor industry right now.
Rockered skis, famously championed by Shane McConkey because the man knew what would ski powder best clipless bike pedals. Gore Tex fabric, which it turns out was an accidental discovery. The soft shell and the camelback.
This one in particular, I think shows some really great innovation because it was created by Michael Eidson, who was an EMT racing the hotter and hell 100 in Texas in the 1980s. He knew hydration was important and he didn't like water bottles, so he created the first hydration pack using an IV bag and a tube sock.
Turns out it's one of the best known companies and products in the outdoor industry today. Now you really see a difference when you look at companies and other industries that are simply there to make money.
When they create a product, they are trying to tell consumers how to think or how they should buy instead of answering a consumer need. Now, this isn't some outdoor industry secret. It's really a key to economics and business in general fulfill the need.
This goes back to the old story that the people who made the most money in the mining camps in Alaska during the Gold Rush were not the miners looking for a lucky strike, but those who were selling them picks and shovels. But I think it also speaks to the unique ethics of people in the outdoor industry.
Since you're not going into the business simply to sell shit, you are more aware of your responsibilities to the planet, to the workforce. You try to create products that do less harm. A really great motto that all businesses should follow because these brands have a lot of success.
Part two of this mini academic rundown about your industry. The other reason why the outdoor industry is so different from so many other jobs is it attracts people who don't really want a job.
Most of all, we want to be playing outside. This is our first priority in life. And if we can find a way to work and do that, that's a perfect balance. Unfortunately, balance is hard to attain.
I know this happens for me. I started work at a seasonal job for the Forest Service. That changed my life, saved my life in many ways.
And at that point I knew that going back to the mainstream workforce was just not going to be possible for me. So I found a way to continue to be a ski bum and have a career.
I started writing about the outdoors, writing about skiing and hiking, eventually becoming a Magazine editor and now a publisher. That way I could always be involved in this world that meant so much to me.
And I know that there are countless people in the outdoor industry, from guides to CEOs to podcasters, feel the same way. There's only one problem when you go down this road. Business is not easy. Making a living is not easy. So you have to hustle.
You have to do a lot of the work yourself, and you have to somehow do the work so that you can find time to be outside as well. But I think the outdoor industry and the chance to be an entrepreneur in this space attracts people who enjoy the hustle.
After all, it's what we do outdoors. It's the concentration you need.
Being so close to having it all fall apart to failure in places like riding the last section of Porcupine Rim on a mountain bike or skiing Baldy at Alta or on a run out climb. There's a freedom to being a hustler in the business world, just like there's a freedom to pushing the limits in the outdoor world.
My guest today is a hustler who has found the secret to outdoor business fulfilling a need that has been ignored.
Hailing from the Appalachian Mountains of Western Maryland, Georgia Grace Edwards Gigi is the CEO and co founder of nara, a venture capital backed startup whose mission is to help everyone answer nature's call, quite literally. Gigi got the idea for the Go Fly, nara's internationally patented zipper technology while working as a glacier guide in Alaska.
She and eventually a small team set out to make the outdoors more accessible through innovative and inclusive design.
Prototyped from her Middlebury College dorm room, the Go Fly can now be found in NARA apparel online and soon as an ingredient in other brands on the floors of the largest retailers in North America. So let's open the container with Gigi Edwards.
Hey, I am so excited to be talking to Georgia Grace Edwards today, who goes by Gigi and Georgia Grace Edwards.
Gigi is the CEO and co founder of nara, which is a venture capital based, Colorado based startup whose mission is to help everyone answer nature's call quite literally. And Gigi, I think I'll let you explain that a little bit as we go along, but I wanted to welcome you to the show. I'm really glad to see you here.
GG Edwards
00:07:26.940 - 00:07:30.772
Sounds like a plan. Thank you. I'm super happy to be here and.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:07:30.796 - 00:07:37.348
Maybe we should break into that right away first. Why would you be helping everyone answer nature's call?
GG Edwards
00:07:37.484 - 00:07:54.860
We patented zipper technology called the Go Fly that allows everyone to literally go on the Go without exposing skin to the elements or other people, or removing safety gear or taking off the top half of a garment or anything like that at work and at play.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:07:56.200 - 00:07:59.420
Which is the kind of thing that you wonder, why did no one do that before?
GG Edwards
00:08:00.280 - 00:08:25.230
Definitely, I think that's the most common response I get is, I can't believe you're the first person to think of this. And my reaction is always like, there's no way I'm the first person to think of this.
I think most women from the dawn of pants until now have thought about this functionality in some capacity. And in fact, we hear from customers all the time that they've been doing DIY versions of this for decades before we came along.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:08:26.250 - 00:08:50.769
That's great. Well, and I know as a, you know, as a young entrepreneur, as a growing brand, there's a lot of work to do.
Before you came on here, we were talking about how draining the hustle is and how hard it is to be trying to make it outside of the usual careers and life, especially in the outdoor world. So I guess my first question for you is, how do you do it? How do you survive the hustle?
GG Edwards
00:08:52.469 - 00:09:18.980
That's a great question that I don't know that I have an answer for besides I take it day by day.
I remember when we were first starting out, I forget which startup book it is, but it says that all great teams have a hipster, a hacker and a hustler. And for better or for worse, I have always been in the hustler part of that position.
So yeah, I don't know how we keep doing that other than you keep doing it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:09:20.800 - 00:09:32.060
Well. What kind of, you know, what's a day look like for you? How do you make it through a day? Are you a planner? Do you go by the seat of your pants?
Do you kind of do all the above?
GG Edwards
00:09:32.480 - 00:10:38.292
I definitely mentally prepare for things though. What I found over the years is that no matter how much you prepare, it's going to be unexpected in some capacity.
And sometimes being able to not go in with the set plan and react on the fly, pun kind of intended, is the way to go. I always definitely err on the side of taking in all the information and processing before I respond. That's kind of my preferred place to be.
But that's not always possible in day to day. Right now we're a team of three full time employees handling different revenue streams, which is essentially three different businesses.
So I am all over the place from website edits and weighing in on marketing, to pitching wholesalers, to working on our partnership deals for GoFly to the admin side of things, the operational side of things. With 3 PLs and factory and sourcing every element of a business, it's not unlikely that I touch it in a.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:10:38.316 - 00:10:43.816
Day that is definitely a hustle. Makes mine sound easy.
GG Edwards
00:10:44.008 - 00:10:55.500
Yeah, I try to chunk where I can for sure, but I kind of think signing up to be a founder means signing up to be pulled in a million different directions and multitasking constantly.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:10:56.000 - 00:11:00.552
How do you deal with it mentally and emotionally? Having so much responsibility and pulled in.
GG Edwards
00:11:00.576 - 00:11:44.024
So many directions besides therapy, having a strong support network of people who have been here since the earliest days and have seen this when it was nothing more than a crazy idea in college and a project I was working on for a class to where we are now has been really helpful.
When I'm super in the weeds working in the business, to be able to have that perspective of zooming out and see the bigger picture and getting that kind of external validation is something that definitely helps me stay on track and not get too consumed in distractions or, I don't know, other things on the side and focus on what our main priorities are in solving for this mission.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:11:44.152 - 00:12:07.318
That's great. Glad to see that you can find a way to make it through all the work you're doing.
I guess the next question I have for you, though, is you're an entrepreneur, and I think it's kind of a loaded word in our society right now. Some people think of entrepreneurs as not the outdoor people they want to be hanging out with, but can anyone become an entrepreneur?
What does it actually mean to be an entrepreneur?
GG Edwards
00:12:07.504 - 00:13:03.372
Absolutely. I think anyone can be an entrepreneur.
I think especially if you're someone who you either your passion or your pissed offness outweighs the sacrifices, then I think you're an entrepreneur in pursuing something. Anyone who's turning an idea into something tangible that resonates with other people and therefore has value is an entrepreneur.
And I think the definition of that should include artists and writers and musicians and anyone who's taking something from thoughts and turning it into something tangible.
I think sometimes people in those professions shy away from the term entrepreneur or founder and prefer small business owner or creative or whatever it is, which is valid, but I think they're all synonymous and it's really just semantics, whatever you want to call it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:13:03.556 - 00:13:24.040
Yeah, I think that's a really great point to think about that. That you know, that artists and musicians, you know, you see people on Patreon or whatever. I think in this business climate and Society. Right.
You have to if you want to work outside of the mainstream. And if you don't want to have a boss, then you have to find some way to to make it work for yourself, right?
GG Edwards
00:13:24.420 - 00:13:36.100
Definitely. If there were a way to do this with the boss, I also would have opted for that. But the only way to solve this to be to do it myself. So here we are.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:13:36.960 - 00:13:40.776
But doesn't it feel good to be your own boss, to not have someone else calling the shots?
GG Edwards
00:13:40.968 - 00:14:13.410
Sometimes for sure.
But other times I think startups and founders are just as if not more beholden to the same pressures of capitalism, but they're having to execute on all of it under resourced.
And it's a lot of responsibility to be responsible for other people's livelihoods and reputations and a lot of things that you don't have to worry about if you're a nice cog in the wheel, which I've also been in the past too. And that has its pros and cons as well.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:14:13.870 - 00:14:26.102
Yeah, that's a great way to think about it. Well, why don't we go ahead then to. Could you tell me what nara means?
The name of the business and why you chose that name for what you're doing right now?
GG Edwards
00:14:26.286 - 00:16:51.250
Yes. So if There are any OG fans listening, they knew us as SheFly and that was the name that we came up with in college.
We wanted a two syllable word that indicated the product and the intended audience and had some fun kind of innuendos or double meanings we could make with it. The problem quickly became that we were known as Sheflies by Shefly featuring shefly.
So there was no differentiation between the products, the company and the technology. And all of those needed their own room to scale.
And then as we became leaders in the industry in accessibility and inclusion, it didn't make sense socially to keep using a she pronoun if not all consumers of our product used that necessarily. It was kind of unnecessarily excluding people who we could be converting.
And when it came to discussion of licensing partners, which we knew was ultimately where we wanted to take the GoFly technology, initial interested potential licensees were like, how are we going to do, for example, men's fishing waders featuring Shefly technology, on the marketing side, it just created unnecessary barriers. And so one of our mentors, Sean, helped us with a rebrand.
And Nara comes from the Latin root word narus, which means to get to know or to become familiar with. And so we took this problem that at least half the population is highly familiar with and solved for it. And we liked NARIS because it.
Well, naris, which we turned into NARA still having a feminine slant and a kind of redefinition to some degree. We liked it because it was a blank slate, so it didn't have any associations or connotations already. We could kind of make it our own.
And then on the practical side of a rebrand, it was good for securing trademarks and patents and URLs and social handles, since no one had it since it was made up. And then no matter where we go with this, it's applicable in a lot of industries, not just the outdoor industry.
We wanted to still have a nod to the roots and to where we started. So thinking about Shred the Gnar and adding an to it. So still a nod that's still kind of redefining a culture as we think we knew it in the past.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:16:51.950 - 00:17:17.266
Well, I think it's a brilliant name and I really love what you all did by taking this one. You came in so hot with such success with SheFly and this one idea. And it's really amazing to see you then find a way to expand.
I mean, really, the idea of inclusivity, that your brand is for anyone, that it's not just, you know, one gimmick, that it's a bigger thing than that.
GG Edwards
00:17:17.418 - 00:17:50.388
Yeah. And it's technically unisex technology.
Our focus just happens to be the half of the population that hasn't had any solution, at least to number one, leading up to this. And that decision was something.
I think that was one of the first times where I really had to stick to my gut because there were several parties who warned us that we should not do a rebrand. And I still think it was one of the best decisions we've ever made. And the licensing deals and partnerships we have now definitely proved that.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:17:50.524 - 00:18:04.400
Oh, yeah. I love it. I love the way it's. As I said, it's really expanded who you speak to. Right. With this idea that started small.
And on that note, I mean, how did it. What was the genesis of the brand? How did everything start?
GG Edwards
00:18:04.950 - 00:19:14.242
And one more add there it also, another thing I forgot to mention is that it was getting confused with fuds, female urination devices, because there's the Go Girl and the Shewee. And so this was a similar Chick Fil, a similar naming convention that we definitely wanted to differentiate ourselves from in terms of the story.
Nara, which was she fly at the time, was born from a summer I spent working as a glacier guide in Alaska. So I was spending 8 to 12 hours a day up on the ice, usually as one of the only female guides, if not the only one.
And in comparison to the guys who could turn around, unzip, go whenever, wherever.
I found myself having to trek across the glacier, carefully avoiding crevasses, completely remove three to four layers in freezing temperatures, do my thing, put it all back on, and hike back to work. And that process was such a waste of time and energy that left me feeling cold for hours after. And it got to the point where my best solution was to.
They call it tactical dehydration, which basically just meant not drinking water for 12 hours.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:19:14.346 - 00:19:15.810
Oh, no. Oh, no.
GG Edwards
00:19:15.930 - 00:19:52.600
I got to the point where I was like, my entire role here is to ensure other people's safety as a guide on this glacier. And I am limiting my physical performance and ability to do that. From a health standpoint and multiple other standpoints, that can't be a solution.
And then kind of went on this deep dive of the history of women's pants, or the lack thereof, and realized it's a super young industry that has not seen a lot of innovation at all. And that kind of made it ripe for shaking up with a technology like this.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:19:53.060 - 00:19:58.440
And then how was the actual first product born and how did it come to market?
GG Edwards
00:19:58.960 - 00:20:15.660
So I sat on that idea for about two years.
At the time, I didn't realize how much I was thinking about it, but friends from college have since come back to me and been like, it was literally all you talked about. All you talked about was a better way to pee out of your pants.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:20:16.640 - 00:20:18.280
For good reason. For good reason.
GG Edwards
00:20:18.400 - 00:23:11.490
For a good reason. I was like the pee pants girl. My senior year of college, my senior spring, I took a class called Middlebury Entrepreneurs.
I went to Middlebury College in Vermont, and that was a four week class where you entered with rough prototypes of whatever your idea was, and you exited four weeks later with a business model and your first pitch competition under your belt, which we won. And it was $250. And I took that to a local seamstress in Vermont and she helped us refine the design.
The rough prototypes that I entered that class with, I'd sewn over Christmas break with my best childhood friend in her attic. And I had not sewn since 7th grade Home economics class.
I grew up in Appalachia, so there was some sewing for girls at that time, but I feel like we mainly sewed pieces of paper and weird things like that for straight lines.
So limited knowledge, but got a bunch of pants from the Goodwill and then a bunch of different open clothes mechanisms from joann fabrics that we had locally, like snaps and Velcro and all sorts of different buttons and ultimately landed on the zipper. So those prototypes were all functional, but they looked absolutely horrendous. It's a miracle that anyone took us seriously at that point in time.
And so the seamstress was able to refine that in a way that was much more discreet aesthetically. So you can't even tell the Go Fly's there. And that was enough to take to our first factory in a tech pack.
And we crowdfunded for our first product, the Go There Pant, in spring of 2019. So we started production Q4 of that year. And so production was from Q4 into Q1 of 2020. We all know what happened then.
We were at a Fairtrade zero waste factory in India and two thirds of our product was completed before the factory went out of business overnight. But the remaining one third, nothing came of it. I don't know where it is, but it wasn't considered an essential good.
So it couldn't leave the country, which I will also argue till the end of time that it very much was an essential good. And so a third of our initial wait list of initial customers, I think it was 500 on that.
500 customers who backed that first crowdfunding campaign on ifund Women ended up waiting over two years to actually get the first official production run of Go Their pants, which ended up being 12 times the size of that initial run, with some accelerators and lots of pitching in between.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:23:12.350 - 00:23:25.360
And then how did you make the next leap that you've made now? How did you make that leap from kind of very specific one product to a much larger, all encompassing brand?
GG Edwards
00:23:26.300 - 00:25:20.910
Customers have always been at the forefront of this company. We're pretty obsessed with feedback and what they want to see and do a lot of polling and surveying. And so there's.
We have enough products to take us through probably 20, 30 of just customer demanded products. And so we ranked all of them in terms of what people wanted to see next.
The first prototypes that I ever made with what became the Go Fly, we're actually in ski and snow pants, which makes our current partnership with Burton really exciting to kind of bring it full circle. But throughout that prototyping process individually, we quickly realized that outerwear was going to be extremely expensive to manufacture.
And for a first product, we were going to be super limited in terms of the season we can sell it in. And at the time, women's participation within snow sports was also much lower than it is now. So instead we opted for the Go there pant.
That's kind of a do it all pant. A lot of people use it for backpacking and camping and rock climbing and van life and sailing and anything imaginable.
And the other problem we ran into with that initial prototype was that if we made outerwear, we were going to have to make base layers that were also compatible. And we only. We were completely bootstrapped at this time. So we only had enough capital to do one production run of something.
So that's kind of why we veered towards the pant. And then from there we expanded to the Go There short.
And then we expanded to our first partnership with Libsyn on the Eco Trek overalls that have the Go Fly zipper. Then we launched our Go Free collection, which is leggings and a six inch short.
And now we have the Go Fly in the ski bibs and a compatible base layer that features flaps with Burton. So that's kind of our line to date.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:25:21.410 - 00:25:42.710
Yeah. And this is a great success story. Right.
You're currently, right now even still taking pre orders on these Burton and NARA ski bibs and compatible base layers. Right. Which was kind of the missing link. And how, how did you get a chance to partner with a billion dollar company? And how is that common?
Is that something we see a lot in the industry or.
GG Edwards
00:25:43.170 - 00:28:55.110
I have not seen any examples of this. I am curious if any exist.
I feel like especially having been in the industry now for I just passed three years full time with nara and there's a ton of small and emerging brands who are constantly doing giveaways together and appearing in the same gear lists and are in the same slack groups. And then it seems like there's everyone at the top. The Patagonia is the north face. The arc'teryx is the Burtons.
And there's very few companies in that middle ground. And I don't see a lot of threads of connection between the top and the bottom. It's kind of everyone operates within their tier.
So for us, this is a huge deal to be able to bridge that gap with a technology that is applicable no matter what the size of your company is or what the product is that you're making.
And to have it legitimized on that scale, to have a Burton logo next to a NARA logo is a really big deal for us, especially given how taboo this issue has been historically and how many people have kind of laughed it off. I think no matter what happens, the fact that a billion dollar company was like, oh, okay, this crazy idea you had and proved out.
We're going to give this a try and see what happens.
That's a big win for startups and something that I hope this industry will encourage more of, especially because the outdoor industry is known for being super traditional and not very innovative and more of the same old, same old. This is a really great way to break out of that mold.
And in terms of approaching honestly, I mean, in some ways it's very different from approaching with a company that's closer to our size, like Livesyn.
But at the end of the day, all of it is just conversations and winning people over one on one first before a full company is won over, for example, I think we've learned a lot about who the relevant person to contact at a different business is.
Sometimes it is the product team, especially if it's someone at Burton, for example, where they have an R&D department, they're incentivized to work on new innovations.
At other companies that don't have that same incentivization structure, it could be kind of insulting to approach a product designer and be like, look, you could have made this better.
At other companies, it's really the marketing team that latches on because this is absolutely a story worth telling and a story that people are really excited to finally talk about. And then at other companies, I think it starts at the top. It all depends on kind of what their hierarchy is. Yeah. And what their processes are.
It's kind of like building something from scratch each time with a different team each time. So in theory, this will become more scalable over time, the more experience we get and the more case studies we have under our belts.
But yeah, only two on the market right now, so still and not. We're not fully launched yet, so there's still a lot of learnings that will come in the, in the coming months.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:28:55.810 - 00:29:33.026
Well, and what I love about you partnering with Burton is even though it's such a huge company now, I mean, when they started, I think they were, you know, they were cultural innovators. Right. It was bringing in a new kind of culture.
And that's what I love about what you're doing too, is not only, you know, the best innovation in the outdoor industry is the stuff that serves a need. Right. And you were out there on the glacier, you had a need and you answered it.
But I think that also opened the door to cultural innovation where a whole 50% of the population was being ignored. Right.
And likewise, I think Burton snowboarding was a cultural innovation as well, bringing new people into skiing who are on the mountain who wouldn't have been there before.
GG Edwards
00:29:33.178 - 00:30:20.570
Absolutely. Like fundamentally changing the way that people are experiencing and thinking about topics in the outdoors and beyond. A lot more questioning.
Like, I think at Burton it was like, okay, if we're doing this on two skis, why not do it on one board? And both companies have this kind of scrappy start in Vermont. Us in a college dorm room, Jake. And in the middle of nowhere. Yeah, yeah.
And I think historically Burton has been a company that does embrace a lot of innovation.
Whether it's the boa dials on their snowboarding boots or Gore Tex or their new, like, step on bindings, they've always been industry leaders in testing out innovations first and really pushing for them to exist. So there's a lot of alignment in that sense.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:30:21.390 - 00:30:46.530
Yeah.
And I mean, you went to Middlebury, going back to Vermont, which definitely I feel that there are two colleges that you see a lot of people from in the outdoor industry. One on kind of the upper end maybe is Middlebury, and the other one, where there's tons of people from, is St. Lawrence University.
I think between those two, those two schools, we see a lot of people working in the outdoors. I'm not exactly sure why, but they seem to be brewing grounds.
GG Edwards
00:30:46.610 - 00:30:54.258
That's funny. I've never thought about that. But there were so many weekend parties where it was mid kids at St. Lawrence and Vice versa.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:30:54.354 - 00:30:55.030
Yes.
GG Edwards
00:30:56.010 - 00:31:26.100
So maybe there's something in that. I'm not sure.
It's funny too, because as liberal arts colleges, neither of those are teaching hard business schools or outdoor industry specific things. I think they're just set in places where the outdoors are so naturally a part of your life that maybe those things become more obvious.
I'm not exactly sure.
And Middlebury's investment in social entrepreneurship is absolutely why I pursued this more than just thinking about it all the time and being disgruntled.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:31:27.800 - 00:31:49.604
That's great. Well, hey, when we were.
When we were kind of planning for this interview, you told me that there are two essential questions everyone should be asking right now. The first is, why is that? And the second is how could it be better? And what exactly do you mean by that? Is that in business? Is that in life?
What are those questions about?
GG Edwards
00:31:49.772 - 00:33:25.356
I think both in the context of nara, those are the two questions I asked when thinking about why there wasn't another solution to solve for this problem.
And when I started doing research and realized facts like, oh, 56% of women have had a bathroom accident outside in the past year, which also was self reported. So probably it's a lot higher than that. That's crazy that one out of every. More than one out of every two women is peeing her pants, like in 2025.
Are you joking?
And when you pair that with the historical significance of laws like the fact that women couldn't wear pants on the floor of the US Senate until 1993, I think it's really important to have the historical piece of why something is and how it came to exist instead of just like railing against the present. It's really important to understand how it came to be.
And I think in the outdoor industry specifically, if people aren't trying to understand that historical context and simultaneously leave something better than they found it, I'm not really sure what we're doing here.
I feel like that's the entire point of the outdoors is pushing forward and having progress, recognizing the patterns that led to where we are in outdoor industry issues and then seeing what we can do to leave them better than we found it.
And in the current, shall we say, turmoil of the outdoor industry, I think those are two important questions that are kind of being forgotten a little bit.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:33:25.508 - 00:33:57.450
Yeah. Well, first I want to say I love the idea of a senator wearing a pair of NARA pants, especially, especially during session.
I think that would be an incredible statement all around that we need right now. The other point that you said, though, I do think the outdoor industry is in a really strange place right now. A lot of anxiety.
No one's really sure where anything's going. Where do you see? Where do you think we're headed?
What bomb do you think there is for the outdoor industry and what path do you think we should follow?
GG Edwards
00:33:58.630 - 00:37:28.880
I will admit that the episodes focused on outdoor trends and forecasting I tend to skip because no sane person would look at that data and then think, oh, yes, I should definitely continue doing this.
So just as a personal protection measure, I try to stay away from the more negative signaling because I think to some degree there are pieces that have always been there and sometimes when we over talk about it, I think we manifest it in some way. I will say that in the current situations, when I hear about what I call the big boys struggling, a natural reaction is to be like.
If organizations that are that well resourced, that have been around for this many decades can't figure out how to overcome this, how the hell am I going to overcome it? And so that thought is always there.
But I think the flip side of that is that being a more nimble, smaller more innovative company and doing something that hasn't been done before on this scale, and trying a new blueprint might give us a chance. And so that's kind of what I try to remember.
I also think that for us, the most honest take, or I guess the best way to get a pulse on the state of the world for us has not been unemployment rates or inflation or whatever headlines or Gini coefficients. It's been the state of our customer service inbox.
And while that has always been overwhelmingly positive, just flooded with testimonials and messages and asking if we can do this product next. There are points in time where we see an influx of certain types of messages.
Like if more than a few people mention something, that's how we kind of pick up on what actual trends are happening day to day with real people.
And so recently, I think the tone of so many messages in our inbox is just like how much people are struggling right now and how much they feel alone and not listened to. And I think that is something that I am constantly reminding our team of.
While it's very sometimes frustrating to have to respond to messages about, you know, people who missed a exchange window or made a purchase and however many days later went back to their finances and decided that, you know what, they actually can't make this investment anymore. Investment, meaning a purchase of a product like those are kind of unprecedented. And I'd say we've had an influx of those recently.
And so what I constantly tell our team is it is an honor to be a listening ear for all of these grievances. Granted, none of those things are things, problems we claim to solve. We've been very clear about the problem we set out to solve.
But it's because we listen to people and solve that problem that they feel like we're a safe space to listen to other concerns, even ones that have nothing to do with us or the reliability of DHL in the current economy, which is quite low, I would say. And so that's kind of what I'm thinking a lot about right now and seeing a lot of firsthand.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:37:31.020 - 00:37:46.772
You're listening to Rock Fight Radio. Oh, you got DJCT back with you spinning the hits. And it's that time because we have another new song from that hit machine, Fitz.
And Fitz wants to ask you, why just settle for a smart sock when you can opt for a smarter sock?
FITS!
00:37:46.836 - 00:38:57.654
You've got a million choices lying on the floor Thin ones, thick ones, even some you never wore but there's a sock who specs rise above the rest don't settle for a smart one when the smarter sock is best option 4 the smarter sock fits fits this the smarter sock fits Whole foot comfort is the answer to the question of the knit fits Opt for the smarter sock Whole foot comfort is the goal it's only common sense. With four different pack tents, the difference is immense. The Y line's added volume really is legit to the next level.
Comfort of the fit we call fitness Opt for the smarter sock fits Fits is the smarter sock fits Whole foot comfort is the answer to the question of the knit fits Opt for the smarter sock Opt for the smarter sock fits Fits is the smarter sock fits Whole foot comes comfort is the answer to the question of the knit fits for the smarter sock fits and now.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:38:57.742 - 00:39:22.020
Back to the show. Well, I think too that, you know, I don't know if you would say this, but I think you should be who the bigger brands are looking to right now.
Right, because you're going to be. You're the brand of the future. You know, you, Lipson, who you mentioned before.
So what do you think those brands could learn from you in your perspective, both in business and understanding the culture?
GG Edwards
00:39:23.240 - 00:41:35.940
I think two things. One, this functionality is absolutely needed. Of course, we can continue proving this on an even larger scale, but we're at 30,000 units in the world.
We're at multiple partnerships launched to the public. This is absolutely something people want to see.
From a business standpoint, if you know there's a way to improve your product and you're not trying to do that, I definitely have some questions about, like, why wouldn't you be trying to make this better and partnering with us? Like, all of our partnerships are structured in a way where we make it easier to partner with us than we do to compete with us, for example.
That's number one.
Number two is that even if you're not bought on from, let's call it the social reasoning and the stats about women's participation in the outdoor industry, from a business standpoint, you should absolutely be investing in this.
And partnering with NARA is a really easy way to not just have the functionality and show that you're focused on innovation and problem solving, but to also signal that you care about supporting underrepresented groups in the outdoors. With Libsyn in particular, it was also very strategic because they didn't have a women's audience at all before working with us.
They were like 95% male. And so Nara bringing the entire weight of. Of our following, which the Rock Fight has pointed out how strong that is.
And kind of outsized on socials and having immediate customers who are already so familiar with the technology and also so hungry for it in additional applications just makes a lot of sense.
And I think when at this time when the industry is struggling, a lot of times when that happens, people become risk averse and they go back to the same old same old, which doesn't really make sense because the same old same old is what got you to this place.
And so I think if you're going to struggle anyway, why not struggle for something worth trying for, which in my opinion is always functional apparel and always meeting customers exactly where they are and giving them what they're asking for.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:41:37.360 - 00:41:58.410
Well, and I think isn't it true that the whole outdoor space is changing too? And I think a lot of brands miss that. And that's right what you're in the heart of, right?
How do you see, you know, what we even define as outdoors being different now than even the image that maybe some of these bigger brands project or want to think is out there.
GG Edwards
00:41:59.110 - 00:43:16.902
I think the brand Persona of like we only do hardcore shit, like all our entire feed is ice climbing and summonering, summoning Everest, all super admirable things to do in the outdoors. That is not what the outdoor industry is anymore.
Americans participation in outdoor rec in so many ways that are completely unrelated to the most extreme scenarios has been booming since COVID So creating, I think, trends of products that are not that don't distinctly have to live in the hard outdoor category, but can also be used as lifestyle pieces can also be used in maybe less intense outdoor applications, whether that's fly fishing or picnicking or car camping. People I think are wanting less shit and more good shit that can be used for a lot of different use cases. And that's how our go there pants.
A woman has literally set a world record wearing our stuff. First woman to sail the world solo Colebrauer. And also people wear our pants for, you know, a little mental health walk.
Like the, the range of use cases for these products is quite broad and I don't think that's a trend that's going to go away.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:43:17.086 - 00:43:47.520
And I think this is really important right now, right when the outdoors itself is kind of under fire where public lands are in the threat of being sold and you know, parks are losing staff.
But I think it seems really important to talk to people and tell them that outdoors can be a little park nearby, a little piece of woods that's left over. Right. I mean you've lived in the northeast where there's More places like that.
So how are you speaking to that growing demographic or understanding of what the outdoors is?
GG Edwards
00:43:47.900 - 00:44:34.286
I think a lot of it is just amplifying the stories that we receive from our customers who are using our products to garden or to dog walk or to go to a music festival. Those are all legit ways to be outside.
And I think producing content or amplifying existing content that allows people to see themselves resonated within it, they can relate to it is really important.
And so while we do have people achieving quote unquote hardcore things in our products, we also dedicate probably more of our feed to more everyday applications and real people to just emphasize how accessible this really is, especially with this technology. Yeah.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:44:34.318 - 00:44:58.130
Well, let's talk about, you know, your kind of how you get your message out there. Right. Social media, I know is really important to you and really important to small brands.
And I think it's interesting right now where people are kind of wavering between needing it and being tired of it. Right. How do you navigate that landscape? How do you speak on social media in a way that is important right now?
GG Edwards
00:44:58.670 - 00:47:12.350
It sounds really simple, but we try to speak on social media in a way that's exactly what we want to hear. So I am so over influencers sales gimmicks. My life is perfect trending audio.
And we really try to focus on transparency because that has always been the key to our growth.
We didn't have product for two years and all we did on socials was talk about all the reasons we didn't have product for two years and really bring customers into that journey. And so out of, I don't know how, I think maybe like 150 customers, we maybe processed three refunds over two years.
That's a level of loyalty that's unheard of. And we fully attribute to the level of transparency and the behind the scenes that we really showed other people.
We are absolutely a founder, forward brand. That's why I'm here doing things like this. But there are a lot of times where I get pressured to be more of a influencer personality.
There are so many brands that start with someone who has a million personal followers and then it's super easy to launch a business because you already have an audience of a million. I think for me that just doesn't feel authentic. I want to exist still as a separate person to some degree.
But I will say that for our paid ad strategy, the ones of me packing orders in the warehouse always perform better. But I think that kind of reinforces it's Me actually doing the work and actually showing you how we got there.
So yeah, maybe some disjointed thoughts on that, but I think just showing up in the way that I want to consume content has been our guiding principle so far.
And then another obvious principle for us is having a sense of humor and having the ability to laugh at ourselves and also laugh at the ridiculous things that are said to us is pretty essential to making people feel comfortable enjoying the conversation and also just continuing on. I think if you don't have a sense of humor, you're doomed.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:47:13.010 - 00:47:19.154
So what's an example of that? What's ridiculous? Obviously, Internet comments could be more than ridiculous. Right? So, oof.
GG Edwards
00:47:19.202 - 00:47:24.290
There are so many that I don't even know that I want to give them amplification.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:47:24.370 - 00:47:25.154
Of course. Yeah.
GG Edwards
00:47:25.202 - 00:47:30.790
I think look at any of our viral reels and there's some really great examples.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:47:31.690 - 00:47:41.858
And you just let that come on. I mean, is that the kind of, you know, all PR is good PR read, or is that, you know, does that mean you're succeeding, do you think?
If people are criticizing you or being.
GG Edwards
00:47:41.994 - 00:48:50.240
Disrespectful, even mixed to some degree? Yes.
If someone thinks it's worth leaving an outrageous comment or worth coming after you in some way, that means it's because they see you as a threat or something about what you're doing is bothering them enough and on their radar enough to react to it. So we do try to always take it as a compliment first. I will say that there are limits to that.
We don't tolerate hate speech or any other crazy things as a brand.
So ridiculous comments get removed, but we also leave the bulk of them on there to show like when people are like, I can't believe this hasn't existed before, it's like, well, here's how it exists now. And look at the shit that we hear honestly, which is the minority, by far, minority of people.
But of course that's also what you remember most because it sticks out. So I think that's part of our mission of transparency, is being like, this is what it really looks like to do this at this time.
And here's how we're overcoming it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:48:50.360 - 00:49:15.772
Yeah.
And I think that as much as social media can be really toxic and difficult at this time, it's also a chance for underrepresented groups and voices to have a voice. Right. And maybe that's why you do get so much flack at times. Right.
In a way, in a male and big company dominated world beforehand, you couldn't have that kind of voice. Right. And get out there.
GG Edwards
00:49:15.956 - 00:50:42.810
Yes. And I think it is both that it is that that has allowed us to both be successful in speaking directly to customers and to scale at this level.
One of my early mentors was Carolyn Cook of Isis Apparel in Vermont. And she unfortunate name now, but she had a very similar functionality.
And I didn't know that until she was kind of assigned as my mentor in the class that I took. And I was like, oh, well, if you've already done this, then maybe I shouldn't bother trying. What do you think went wrong?
And her response was that she thought she was just way too far ahead of her time. She was creating a product for women that she could. The Internet didn't exist. E commerce was not a thing at this point in time.
So she was trying to sell directly into male owned gear stores that only had male customers walking in.
And that is so many layers of literal middlemen and barriers that I think we've been really lucky in that we've been able to approach this at a time where we can talk directly to customers and we can ride on the coattails of so many social movements and specific products that have paved the way to improve women's discomfort in the outdoors and otherwise and to make women's specific products a priority, which has never really been the case prior.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:50:42.970 - 00:51:06.710
You know, one of the things I really love about where you're headed with the brand is building it into an inclusive brand in a much broader way than just a zipper that works well for people with lady parts. Right. And how do you see that bigger vision really growing and teaching people what inclusivity can be?
GG Edwards
00:51:08.050 - 00:52:22.290
I think first and foremost it's recognizing that more times than not when we make something better for one specific population, it almost always improves the experience for the entire population. Population. And I think a lot of adaptive applications are pretty indicative of that.
And many of them have become more normalized and been put into more mainstream products. In terms of our overall vision, we think about a world where everyone can venture outside without having to think twice about this problem.
Like pit stops and dehydrating yourself. And all of these things are taking up a ton of brain space that that does not need to happen at all.
And so the way to do that is to make this technology the norm instead of the exception. So we're starting with the outdoor industry and we've started with these specific products.
But in reality, any product that is attached to the legs of a wearer is a place where you could put a go fly zipper. So pretty Close to endless opportunities on that one. And so I think continuing to prove it out in additional applications.
Applications will only help us get there in making this, you know, it's only not a norm until it is basically, is the strategy.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:52:22.630 - 00:52:39.010
Yeah. I mean, what is inclusivity? Right?
People seem so, you know, obviously there are a group of people who are horrified and so scared by this term that they have to, you know, reject it. But why, you know, what would you tell someone who is afraid of inclusivity?
GG Edwards
00:52:40.310 - 00:53:20.056
I would say take all the buzzwords out of it. DEI is so under attack right now. Ignore whatever nomenclature you want to assign to it and think about what it actually means.
And what it actually means is so simple, which is just making things that work for people. And that is, at its core, something that all of us are striving to do.
And I think getting caught up in the, I mean, getting caught up in the politics of it, for lack of a better phrase, is, is creating like all this unnecessary, I think, chatter about it, when at its core everyone's just trying to improve things. And that is a universal standard. That's not a niche thing.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:53:20.208 - 00:53:36.882
So, I mean, times are crazy right now. And you are a mountain guide, you know, accomplished in the outdoors. What are you doing right now outdoors to find mental health?
What are you doing to enjoy? What are you able to do beyond the business, if anything?
GG Edwards
00:53:36.946 - 00:54:13.400
Right now, unfortunately, there is quite a lot of bleed over between business and personal. I mean, for better or for worse, sometimes for worse though, definitively. And so a lot of what I'm doing is just continued product testing outside.
So having the base layers and bibs and taking them back country skiing and skiing at the resort. Also doing a lot of cross country skiing and then a lot of walks when I need to process things. And that's about it until the seasons change.
But that's mainly what I'm currently up to.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:54:13.700 - 00:54:22.440
So is it all business or do you get some times out there where you really feel a larger connection to things that go beyond the hustle, all that you're doing?
GG Edwards
00:54:23.780 - 00:55:01.698
I try to build in outside time where I am not focused on the pressure of forgetting to get content while I'm out there using the product? It's not always possible, but there are times when I can disconnect and it's usually when I remind myself of why we started this in the first place.
And so if I'm not also giving myself access to the reason that we started this, then I'm not fully solving the problem. So besides mental reminders, there's not much I can do on that front.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:55:01.754 - 00:55:03.890
You're working hard. You're working hard. Yeah.
GG Edwards
00:55:04.050 - 00:55:35.660
And even though it is, there are times where it's a lot of working. It's like I was standing at the top of a run a couple days ago at the resort and a friend skied by and was like, oh, my God, are those vivs?
Show me the functionality. So that was a personal moment that became a work moment.
But the joy on her face and seeing it in real life and like immediately placing an order also brings me personal joy as much as it brings further success to the company. So they are intertwined to a large degree.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:55:36.320 - 00:55:45.288
That's great. Have you seen them in the wild? Just unsolicited. Have you happened to see your product out there? Does that give you a big thrill? Yeah.
GG Edwards
00:55:45.384 - 00:56:38.140
Not the bibs, since they're pre order so they'll deliver ahead of next ski season, but our other products. Yes, absolutely. It is so exciting when we spot them in the wild. And I always go up to the person and ask how they found out about it.
And sometimes I'm honest about who I am and other times I'm like, oh, no, I'm just a fan. I wanted to know how you heard about. So that's fun too.
And then it also helps when there are certain retailers, for example, who have said, no, no, no. But then when I look at our Pro Deal account and say, how many employees from that retailer are wearing our product?
Or when I show up at an event and employees of that retailer are wearing our product to an outdoor event, it helps give some form of validation, even if I know we're not going to get it from the top, so to speak.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:56:38.640 - 00:56:56.410
That is beautiful. I love that. I think that's a sure sign of success. And are you.
I mean, you told me at the very beginning of this talk that, you know, community was really important to help you get through. You live in a great outdoor community. Right. How do you get buoyed by the people around you?
GG Edwards
00:56:57.270 - 00:57:50.292
I hear a lot of social communities are based around an activity. So I'm in like a. We call it a biking baddies and it's a women's mountain bike group.
And I have a similar thing for skiing and a similar thing for dance, for example.
So it's nice that a lot of my social communities are based on outdoor movement of some kind and not in a competitive way, in a way that's entirely focused around just showing up and being together. And that is something that I very much value and cherish and know there are certainly variations of that in cities.
Like, running clubs are super strong in cities. And that was something I loved having when I lived in Boston, for example.
But I think the kind of variety and volume of the community groups I can be a part of here is super special and not something that I take for granted.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:57:50.436 - 00:58:06.600
That's beautiful. I guess, you know, we're. Unfortunately, we're running out of time now, so I'm going to bring you up to. And it's been so great to talk to you.
I think we're going to have to do this again sometime. The last question we always ask everyone on this show is what gives you hope?
GG Edwards
00:58:07.460 - 00:59:39.600
I know you asked this on other episodes, but for some reason I was like, maybe I won't have to answer that one. At this slightly less hopeful time, this is going to sound not hopeful. And then I'm going to bring it full circle.
NARA lost a member of our team, Sarah Steinwand, who was also the founder of Treeline pr, in an avalanche a couple weeks ago. And she was the main person in charge of the PR launch with Burton, the limited edition drop. And she was also just a really close friend of mine.
We were friends for years in the women's mountain bike group, for example, before we ever worked together. And so the personal grief on top of like the professional grief and challenges has been really, really difficult.
But her celebration of life service was a couple days ago, and someone who is another person in the industry, actually Lisa Slagle of Wheely Creative, was talking about their relationship. And the main theme of her talk and how Sarah made everyone feel is that she, pardon my language, showed the fuck up.
And I think that is what is giving me a lot of hope right now, is remembering that even in times of extreme turmoil, there will always be people who show the fuck up. And you just have to find them and show the fuck up with them. And that's kind of what we're all about. So I'm holding onto that.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:59:39.720 - 00:59:47.020
I love that. I love that you are showing the fuck up. I'm gonna show the fuck up. And I think we should get as many people as possible to show the fuck up.
GG Edwards
00:59:47.800 - 00:59:48.860
I love it.
Doug Schnitzspahn
00:59:49.160 - 00:59:59.936
That's beautiful to talk about Sarah, too, who I knew for a long time and we honored on a previous episode of the show. I'm glad we got some mention of her in here as well.
GG Edwards
01:00:00.088 - 01:00:01.500
Yeah, thanks for that.
Doug Schnitzspahn
01:00:01.880 - 01:00:12.078
Yeah. Gigi, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you. For people who want to pre order the bibs and the base layers as well.
Is that possible for them to do right now? How would they do that?
GG Edwards
01:00:12.214 - 01:00:39.880
It's possible and much appreciated because it sets the entire tone for future partnerships like this and continuing current ones. You can do it right on our homepage. It's right there, front and center ara.com it's also linked in all of our social bios which are just araaparel.
And if you are on our email list, you've already gotten a bajillion blasts about it. So. So thank you.
Doug Schnitzspahn
01:00:40.660 - 01:00:46.316
And who would you love to listen into this show and order something from nara?
GG Edwards
01:00:46.428 - 01:00:47.740
Like an individual?
Doug Schnitzspahn
01:00:47.900 - 01:00:50.588
No, just in general. What kind of customer would you love to bring in?
GG Edwards
01:00:50.644 - 01:01:27.756
Oh, anyone. I'm so excited for whenever we hear a story that is not a use case I have personally experienced, I'm always like wow, that's incredible.
I didn't even think about how we could help in that scenario. So if you have some outdoor activity or I don't know, thing you're training for, that isn't something you've seen us show on socials.
Like we want to hear about it. We want to see you do your cool activity in our product and see how it improves us or improves it. Yeah, no constraints on that one.
Doug Schnitzspahn
01:01:27.828 - 01:01:31.772
Great. And how finally do you think we can the best way to show the.
GG Edwards
01:01:31.796 - 01:02:32.290
Fuck up is There are so many ways to show the fuck up. I think pre ordering continues to be a really important one given where we are right now as a business social engagement.
There are things that feel meaningless on social media that actually make a huge difference in terms of the eyes that your content reaches. So all of that is always appreciated. And I think you asked me about the hats that I wear. Another hat that I wear is fundraising.
And I think that especially right now when we don't know what's going on with the economy or we do, but we're going to pretend we don't. Funding underrepresented entities of any kind in any form is a really tangible and valuable way to show the fuck up.
If 90% of portfolios are going to fail anyway, don't you want it to be in something that's worth being a part of? That's a little bit more exciting, I think. Yes.
Doug Schnitzspahn
01:02:32.370 - 01:02:41.874
But Words to Live by Gigi Georgia Grace Edwards, I cannot thank you enough for being on the show and talking together here today.
GG Edwards
01:02:42.042 - 01:02:45.350
Thank you so much for having me. It's been a true pleasure.
Doug Schnitzspahn
01:02:46.490 - 01:03:11.260
Thanks for imbibing Open Container, a production of Rock Fight llc.
Please take a second to follow our show on whatever podcast app you're listening listening to us on and send your emails and feedback to myrock fight gmail.com check out nara by zipping over to nara.com our producers today were David Karstad and Colin True. Art direction provided by Sarah Gensert. I'm Doug Schnitz von Get some. Thanks for listening.